Iverson traded to...

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Thoughts from game 1's for both Chauncey and AI:

1) Chauncey played poorly and still gave Denver something we haven't had in years. A PG who could run the offense at the end of the game. He got the ball to the right people and made the right decisions in the fourth quarter. The Nuggets couldn't hit an open 15 footer to save their lives, but Billups ran the offense well in the fourth quarter and got the ball where it needed to be. On one possession, he cleared out one side of the floor and threw a post pass to Melo, who ended up being fouled. AI might have called that play in crunch time 2 times in the last 2 seasons.

2) I know people think Nene is a big, goofy stiff. But man is he important to this team. He's now averaging 15.8 points, 8.4 boards, and about 1.5 steals and 1.5 blocks a game. All this while shooting 64% and playing solid defense. He a much, much better player than people want to give him credit for being. Nene's PER this year of 21.40 is better than Yao, Al Jefferson, Ilgauskus, Sheed, Okur, Kaman, and Bynum to name just a handful of guys.

3) AI plays well and his team loses. Never seen that one before. In all seriousness, it's going to take the Pistons time to learn how to play with AI. I think their shooting percentages are going to be horrible for awhile. (and I'm not certain they'll improve a lot to be honest, I think every major Pistons player will take a hit in FG% with AI on the court. But they will adjust and play better down the stretch than they did last night. All of that said, I heard a lot of talk about Billups and his horrible defense. I don't think you realize how bad AI is going to be. When you asked me what we'd do against Parker, Paul or Williams, I had to laugh.

I watched the Denver/Dallas game (mainly because Kidd and AC are on my fantasy team). Kidd scored 20 points - most of them on WIDE open shots. Say what you want about Iverson's poor defense but me thinks the Nuggets perimeter defense still blows - but it did make me happy to see J Kidd racking up the stats.

If you're looking for a smart, cool, calm guy who knows what the right play is with the game on the line then I don't know that there are many better than Chauncey and what makes that work is the fact that Chauncey now only has to be the guy to setup the play unlike in Detroit where he needed to be the guy to hit the shot. Iverson on the other hand is the guy who can hit the shot with the game on the line - something Detroit didn't have. I think both teams got something they needed there.

It's going to take Detroit some time to play with Iverson and some time for him to adapt as well. Detroit won two games with neither Billups or Iverson but with Will Bynum playing - I don't think it means that's the best lineup I don't like how Iverson drives into crowds on the baseline with nothing to do with the ball but I know he's going to committ an extra turnover or two that Billups doesn't but I think the tradeoff for a pure scorer is worth it at this point.

Nene looked good the other night too - I can't say that a 15/8 guy is a "great" player but he's certainly not a bum. Then again Dallas doesn't have a 5 man so who knows what his performance was worth.

In the end, as a Detroit fan, I think its a great trade for us. I don't know that Iverson gives us a better shot at winning it all this year than Billups but I know that he doesn't give us less of a shot and instead of being saddled with Billups contract for the next few years we've got a ton of cap room starting this coming offseason - I'm interested to see how it plays out. Maybe this is one of the rare times when both teams win in the deal.

[adubroff]

Originally Posted by TroyF

By the way, the 6 assist thing is huge. AI played over 41 minutes a game. He handled the ball FAR more than anyone else on the team, even when AC was playing the "point". (in quotes, because AC rarely actually set up the offense, he dribbled it up and dropped it off to AI) AI simply didn't create chances for other players around him. Not nearly at the level people thinks he does.

The numbers show that he either didn't get the ball as often in the games they lost or the other guys didn't convert. Assists don't happen in a vacuum. Well, nothing in basketball does but assists are especially dependent on your cohorts.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by adubroff

The numbers show that he either didn't get the ball as often in the games they lost or the other guys didn't convert. Assists don't happen in a vacuum. Well, nothing in basketball does but assists are especially dependent on your cohorts.

If you watched him play, you'd have seen the difference. You'd also see how well (or in AI's case, how not so well) he usually sets up teammates.

[Gary Gorski]

I'll say this after watching two games with Iverson - the same problems that existed before the trade are still there. The second unit blows right now but the trade for Iverson can improve that. Nobody off the bench can consistently score. We don't need Iverson, Rip, Prince and Sheed on the floor at once (except in clutch situations). Iverson took less than 20% of the shots from the starting five last night - they need to move either Rip or Prince to the 6th man role - not because Iverson can't play point but because nobody off the bench can score. I don't even think it has anything to do with the point thing - they could start Iverson, Rip, Herrmann, Johnson and Sheed and then have Stuckey and Prince off the bench. There's not enough shots to go around with those four on the floor at once and of those four Iverson should be the first one shooting, not the last.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I'll say this after watching two games with Iverson - the same problems that existed before the trade are still there. The second unit blows right now but the trade for Iverson can improve that. Nobody off the bench can consistently score. We don't need Iverson, Rip, Prince and Sheed on the floor at once (except in clutch situations). Iverson took less than 20% of the shots from the starting five last night - they need to move either Rip or Prince to the 6th man role - not because Iverson can't play point but because nobody off the bench can score. I don't even think it has anything to do with the point thing - they could start Iverson, Rip, Herrmann, Johnson and Sheed and then have Stuckey and Prince off the bench. There's not enough shots to go around with those four on the floor at once and of those four Iverson should be the first one shooting, not the last.

Problem is that Rip won't take a demotion to 6th man for ego-reasons (I'd assume), and Prince is the best defender on a play-by-play basis, and I'm not sure that his ego would let him accept a 6th man role either...

(just assuming here)

[Rich1033]

Yea, I agree. The starting 5 play very well to start the game. After that, BAM, the second unit comes in and they blow. They really need to mess around with the rotation. Rip needs to be the 6th man or someone needs to hit the bench early to return with the second team. Oh yea, and Hermann is not a viable option. Sorry, I like the guy, but no.

[DeToxRox]

The problem is Sheed. It's a lot easier for everyone else to score if he's playing at the rim but he flat out refuses to do it anymore. We have four guys around the 3 point line waiting for a play to develope, and a work in progress offensivley in Amir in the paint. How are you going to get anything going that way?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Rich1033

Oh yea, and Hermann is not a viable option. Sorry, I like the guy, but no.

I disagree - the guy is a gold medalist and look what he did in 2006 when he got some significant playing time for the Bobcats. The last month of that season he had 8 games with 20+ points, including one 30 point, 9 rebound outing. The problem is that Flip wouldn't play him and Curry now seems willing to go to him but judges him based on the first shot he puts up. If he hits, he'll roll with him and usually good things happen but if he throws up a brick he's sent to the bench for most if not all the rest of the game. The guy can play but he needs consistent minutes to show it.

[stevew]

If McDyess turns down legitimate offers here, to sign for the Pistons for less, they really need to re-evaluate this whole "cut, buyout, return to team thing" that they've got going on. I expect the Cavs will attempt to make some kind of legit offer, obviously they have much more to spend than the Pistons do right now.

And I mean, I guess Antonio has the right to sign wherever he wants. But really, he should be banned from going back to his team of origin for one financial year. I mean, it violates the spirit of the salary cap, and all that junk. But whatever.


And it isn't just this one time, this type of shit has happened too many times of late, and I'm sure I ranted about it then when it happens. Even if it seems biased as hell cause I hate the Pistons and like the Cavs.

[Rich1033]

I dont know, I have seen Hermann throw up brick after brick and be left in for far to long in games. IMO he isnt the best defender and doesnt do much on offense besides throw up jump shots and look unsure of himself. I could be wrong, thats just my impression so far.

I have had a hard time watching Pistons games so far. It appears FSN bought the rights to all of the games this year(an extra 34 games for 70 total), but my cable provider has yet to agree to their new price. As a result, all the games are listed in my guide, but half are blacked out for me. The problem being that I dont know if a game is blacked out until it actually starts. Very frustrating and I end up watching the games on justin.tv.

Originally Posted by stevew

I mean, it violates the spirit of the salary cap, and all that junk. But whatever.

The spirit of the salary cap is violated, raped, pillaged, and destroyed over and over every year. I think just about everyone will agree that a few things need to be changed.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Rich1033

I dont know, I have seen Hermann throw up brick after brick and be left in for far to long in games. IMO he isnt the best defender and doesnt do much on offense besides throw up jump shots and look unsure of himself. I could be wrong, thats just my impression so far.

I have had a hard time watching Pistons games so far. It appears FSN bought the rights to all of the games this year(an extra 34 games for 70 total), but my cable provider has yet to agree to their new price. As a result, all the games are listed in my guide, but half are blacked out for me. The problem being that I dont know if a game is blacked out until it actually starts. Very frustrating and I end up watching the games on justin.tv.

I had the same problem for the opening game but there was a big deal made about it in the papers and on the radio and the cable company got the deal done with FSN right after that.

Herrmann could be very useful - he's a high energy player and a pretty reliable shooter. The problem is I think he feels the pressure that when he goes in he needs to score right away or he's done for the night. I forget if it was the Celts or Nets game but he got put in, forced an awful three that wasn't even close and then that was it for the night. That's alot of pressure to go in cold and be expected to start lighting it up right away or else not get back in. Now's the perfect time to give him some legit PT and see if he can play like he did in 06 - its early in the season, McDyess is gone right now, Stuckey's out, Kwame blows. He had a couple nice games earlier - give him some PT and see what happens.

The spirit of the salary cap is violated, raped, pillaged, and destroyed over and over every year. I think just about everyone will agree that a few things need to be changed.

The salary cap isn't even a salary cap but honestly I don't mind. I like the fact that the NBA has a method of allowing players to stick with one team. I like the fact that while bigger market teams may not mind spending more over the cap than smaller market ones that the big ones can't simply just sign whoever they want from other teams. Baseball sucks like that.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I'll say this after watching two games with Iverson - the same problems that existed before the trade are still there. The second unit blows right now but the trade for Iverson can improve that. Nobody off the bench can consistently score. We don't need Iverson, Rip, Prince and Sheed on the floor at once (except in clutch situations). Iverson took less than 20% of the shots from the starting five last night - they need to move either Rip or Prince to the 6th man role - not because Iverson can't play point but because nobody off the bench can score. I don't even think it has anything to do with the point thing - they could start Iverson, Rip, Herrmann, Johnson and Sheed and then have Stuckey and Prince off the bench. There's not enough shots to go around with those four on the floor at once and of those four Iverson should be the first one shooting, not the last.

Watched AI against the Lakers last night. I have to say that I'm stunned. He may have played that type of game 6 times in his 140 or so career games with the Nuggets. No forced shots, passed the ball, didn't force himself on the offense. . . made others better. It was a truly stunning thing to see. Maybe he's scared crazy sheed will shank him if he doesn't play right.

The Nuggets continue to play well with Billups, just like I expected they would. (I know, here comes a loss to Minnesota at home tomorrow night)

Billups is making his teammates better. He's settling the team down in the fourth quarter and the Nuggets are taking control of teams late. (including the shocker last night against Boston)

I think the thing I'm most loving is the lack of respect the Nuggets defense is still getting. Against Boston I heard the announcers yap for over half the game about how poor Denver's D has been. I hate to break it to people, but the Nuggets are 9th in the NBA in FG% against right now. They are 5th in the league in 3pt percentage against. That's even with the horrible numbers they put up against the Cavs. (who shot 57% against them in the worst game they've played this year)

Camby not being there has impacted their defense and just like I thought, it's better.

After the Lakers game last night, I'm really, really interested to see how AI continues in Detroit. Mjaybe it won't be the failure I envisioned it being. A large part of me is expecting he'll return to the selfish AI and the Pistons will feel the result. But maybe, just maybe, he'll play like the AI that should have existed in Denver. That'd make the Pistons a scary team. (and it'd have made the Nuggets a damned scary team too, but he never played that way in Denver)

[hoopsguy]

Simmons with some thoughts on the Billups-led Nuggets:
ESPN Page 2 - Sports Guy gets in his NBA reps

3. "Have you watched the Nuggs with Chauncey running the show? I forgot what a play coming out of a timeout looked like!" --Colby, Fort Collins, Col.


You're right -- lost in the Iverson/Detroit/Dumars lovefest was the dramatic impact that Billups might have on the Nuggets (lacking an elite point guard since Fat Lever), George Karl (looking relatively healthy for the first time in 10 years), Carmelo Anthony (more efficient), and the natural order of the team in general (from chaotic to orderly). The effect was instantaneous. Like putting the team through a car wash. Sometimes a player (especially a point guard) only needs to switch teams and impact the new one for everyone to realize, "Oh yeah, that guy's really good, I forgot." We forgot that Chauncey was still good. Not our fault because that whole Pistons nucleus had gotten stale, but still.


(By the way, Rip Hamilton now looks like Red after Andy escaped from Shawshank; he's 33-for-93 from the field since the trade and on pace to break the record for hang dog "I guess I just miss my point guard" looks. Some birds weren't meant to be caged, Rip.)

[Eaglesfan27]

Iverson missed practice today and faces a "hefty" fine from the Pistons. Also Stuckey will start in his place Friday:

ESPN - Detroit Pistons guard Allen Iverson faces fine after missing practice Thursday

[Samdari]

Did we mention he was prima donna?

By the way, just as predicted, every other significant member of the Pistons' has had their FG% go down since the trade.

[bosshogg23]

Originally Posted by Samdari

Allen Iverson is not an NBA point guard, at least not a good one. Contrary to popular belief, he does not drive and dish. His game is classic SG, come off screens catch and shoot, drive for scores, etc.

Stckey has to start at PG. Its the only way this trade makes sense for the Pistons - it gets Stuckey on the court more. Otherwise, they have traded one of the least selfish players in the NBA for perhaps the most selfish (non-Marbury division) and cost themselves 10-15 wins a year. When they miss the playoffs, Piston fans will be bemoaning the heady days of 50+ wins and losing in the EC finals.

Nice forecasting, Stuckey is starting, Iverson to SG and Rip to SF starting Tuesday. Pistons are 7-8 when Iverson plays including 1-4 at home.

Link

[albionmoonlight]

I know that ego prevents starting caliber players from being willing to come off the bench, but the best move for the Pistons, IMHO, would be for Stucky at PG, Iverson at SG, Rip at SF, Wallace at PF, and Brown at C. Then have Prince and McDyess play major minutes off the bench.

Prince would still get his minutes, of course. But it would seem better to have him out there to run the offense when Stucky is on the bench and to provide an offensive option when Rip, AI, or Wallace is on the bench.

[Gary Gorski]

One of our radio hosts here put it a good way last week - he said the Pistons need to let AI be AI. I think its been tremendously dumb that we traded for Iverson, a pure scorer, and yet have asked him to basically assume the role of Billups. Surely there had to be some PG with an expiring contract that was capable of dribbling the ball up the floor and setting up a stale half court offense if that's what they wanted. Let Iverson push it, let him create, let him play 40 minutes if he wants to. This isn't like Denver where he's got possibly a better offensive option to play along side (like he did Melo) - Rip, Prince, Sheed...these guys are tremendous secondary options but none of them are good enough to be a primary scorer. Sheed probably could be but it would require him showing up willing to play hard (and in the post) for 35 minutes a night every night and that's not happening.

I think this new starting lineup is just as bad as the previous one. I'll stick to my earlier quote and say that either Rip or Prince needs to go to the bench because there's nobody there that can score. If Curry was willing to take a stand and bench AI for a bit because he skipped a practice why can't he tell one of those two to stuff their ego and play the Manu Ginobili role?