(POL) Time to let General Motors go bankrupt?

[SportsDino]

In other words, clusterfuck!

Knew I should have shorted it at $3.00 (did so briefly in the VSE game and decided against it after realizing it could easily spike +50% at that price, see Ford). 40% return in a month easily (could have used the cash to bulk up my long plays). Oh well, lousy garbage company its nearly impossible to predict because they throw around billions of dollars like its toilet paper....

Ford on the other hand is skyrocketing (shorted them in the VSE game, and realized no one cares about a crap ass quarter, so studied the opposite strategy). Did grab some up in the 3.70 region after doing some homework (luckilly I finished it about the same time as a downslide), so far its going very well.

So based on that, is it possible we'll be down to the Big One, with all the others as subsidized bloat machines until they are cut to a smaller company? I could easily see GM being cut in half before it reemerges as a profitable company, and then facing an upward battle against the foreign and Ford positions.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Do the bondholders really think they'll get more in Chapter 11?

In short, yes.

Why would they agree to something that gives a class of creditors at the same spot in the capital structure as them approximately six times more compensation? The UAW may end up doing "better" than bondholders, but it's hard to think they'll do this much better.

Additionally, with the 90% threshold, this isn't a real offer. Sure you want to eliminate the free rider problem (check out GMAC), but getting 90% of bondholders in a company like GM is going to be immensely difficult, even with an offer most people favored.

The irony here is that I'm sure a significant percentage of bondholders are pension plans, including those of other unions. Rob Peter to pay Paul much?

[RainMaker]

Off topic a bit here but auto industry related.

I've been in search of a new car and have to say that dealing with dealerships is just a huge pain in the ass. Each salesman has a sleazy routine they have to go through each time you talk. They constantly play games with the numbers, the add-ons, bait & switch, and so on. It's just a stressful, time consuming experience.

Have any of these car dealerships thought about taking a different approach? Perhaps if the car buying experience wasn't so fucking shitty, they'd get more people on their lots to look and buy.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Off topic a bit here but auto industry related.

I've been in search of a new car and have to say that dealing with dealerships is just a huge pain in the ass. Each salesman has a sleazy routine they have to go through each time you talk. They constantly play games with the numbers, the add-ons, bait & switch, and so on. It's just a stressful, time consuming experience.

Have any of these car dealerships thought about taking a different approach? Perhaps if the car buying experience wasn't so fucking shitty, they'd get more people on their lots to look and buy.

somebody posted a great website with a great expose on auto industry sales in another thread...hang on

nope - must have saved it on my work computer. you could try a forum search for "buying a car" or something

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by digamma

GM launched an exchange offer today to restructure their existing debt. If you haven't followed, they have about $27B in outstanding bonds to go along with about $20B in various obligations to their various VEBA and about $10B in government debt.

The exchange offer would give bondholders 225 shares of common stock in GM for every $1,000 in GM bonds owned. The math works out to the bondholders ending up with about 10% of the equity in GM going forward.

By contrast, the UAW VEBA plans would get 50% of their debt reinstated or paid in cash and an equity stake of about 39% of the company.

Uncle Sam would own about 50% of GM going forward in exchange for wiping out GM's bailout loans.

Current common equity holders would end up with about 1% of the equity in the company.

The exchange offer is doomed to fail, as it requires 90% of bondholders to consent to be effective. That just isn't going to happen.

After the inevitable rejection of the deal, GM will either have to make a new offer or head for Chapter 11.

when i saw the details of that offer i . it was almost like a "fuck you" type of offer.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

somebody posted a great website with a great expose on auto industry sales in another thread...hang on

nope - must have saved it on my work computer. you could try a forum search for "buying a car" or something

Found the thread.

New Car Buying Advice? - Front Office Football Central

The saddest part of the car buying experience is that I probably would have bought one months ago. I've been delaying it simply because I loathe the whole process. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I wonder if there are a lot of people who delay their new car purchase because they don't want to deal with the shitbags working there.

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Found the thread.

New Car Buying Advice? - Front Office Football Central

The saddest part of the car buying experience is that I probably would have bought one months ago. I've been delaying it simply because I loathe the whole process. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I wonder if there are a lot of people who delay their new car purchase because they don't want to deal with the shitbags working there.

Exactly what kind of problems are you having?

Do you know the specific type of car (including package and features) that you want?

If so, visit here:

Kelly Blue Book -- to figure out the invoice value of the car and what the average sale of the car is in relation to that value.

Then, visit here:

Rebate -- to figure out what type of financial incentives are available.

If you know those three things (the specific car that you want, how much that specific car cost the dealership via the invoice price, and what type of incentives are available), you should be able to go in, make a lowball offer (without being ridiculous) and then work your way towards a figure that is slightly above invoice (minus the rebate, if available). You may have a little more room to "get a deal" if the vehicle has been on the lot for a long time (check the inspection sticker, if your state requires them, to see if the car has been on the lot for longer than 3-months -- if so, they have to begin paying interest to the manufacturer for the car, so they may be willing to sell it for an extra $300-$450 cheaper) or if they are at the end of the month and trying to hit some manufacturer sales incentives (ie: if you sell 100 Honda Civics this month, we'll give the dealership an extra $100 per sale).

Unless you are unsure what type of vehicle you want (in many cases people go in with a wishy-washy attitude, not knowing what they want and end up test driving 5 or 6 different models of cars that have a wide variety of pricing and styling and then leave and the salespeople end up spending hours with them without moving anywhere near a sale. After salesmen do that once or twice, they usually no longer want to deal with customers who do not know what they want), do not have the means (ie: not enough money and/or credit or you have a ton of negative equity in your current vehicle and they cannot get you out of it through financing), have completely unrealistic demands for the sale (see the paragraph above and you should be good), or are going to particularly bad dealerships (if so, try different dealerships, a no haggle dealership, or online), you shouldn't be having that much trouble if you are ready to pull the trigger on a new car.

[Chubby]

Like Swaggs said, it's a lot easier if you know what you want. Don't be afraid to shop around. If the salesmen are going to dick you around then it's fair game to shop their price to another dealership to see if they will beat it.

The hour and a half drive to get my last car was more worth it considering it was exactly what I wanted at the lowest price i could find.

[gstelmack]

Internet buying is the best way to buy. Pick your car model, then go to the manufacturer's site to ask for quotes. Key to this is to sell your used car separately, as that's the one place they can make extra money off you, so handle that separately.

[RainMaker]

Thanks for the tips, I probably should have stuck to the internet. I guess it's not so much having problems, it's more about being annoyed. Few examples from my day yesterday.

- Second place I went to I asked for the best price on the car I want. The guy came back and said this is what I can do. I said "thanks but the dealership the town over is offering it much cheaper". Got up to leave and he told me to hang on, went and got another price while giving me the "my manager is going to kill me for this" bullshit.

- One place kept trying to swap out the car when they knew they couldn't match the price I was given by another dealership. The guy came back and said "we can beat it by $300". I was happy and said great. Looked further and it was a lower class model. He knew exactly the class I wanted yet tried to slip it under my nose. Was annoyed and left.

- The final place said they could match the best price. Then when he started drawing out paperwork, the interest rate what raised like 3% higher than their special (I have great credit). I questioned him on it and he said that is what the financing department told him was the only option for me. I said fine, I'll just pay cash for the car with no financing. He came back then and told me he had made a mistake on the original price because he was listing a manual transmission, not automatic (which is bullshit since I test drove the automatic and specifically asked for it). It was late, I was tired, so I just got up and told him I didn't have time for the games.

It was pretty stupid of me to go in I guess without using the internet to make first contact with these dealerships. I understand these guys work on commissions and that they want the highest price they can get. But the sleazy sales pitches from shitty salesmen just grows old. I used to work for a company that shared an office with credit card processing sales people so I know all the scumbag tricks they pull. I don't need to hear "I'm going to get in trouble for giving you this offer" or other cheesey lines. Just give me your price, the cost of the available add-ons, and I'll make my decision based on that. The whole song and dance with these guys is just annoying and stressful.

And for anyone in sales, is this really the best way to sell stuff? I can tell you that I find myself much more inclined to buy and maybe overpay when the guy I'm dealing with is genuine and not pushy. Hasn't the days of overly aggressive, pushy sales tactics ended?

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Internet buying is the best way to buy. Pick your car model, then go to the manufacturer's site to ask for quotes. Key to this is to sell your used car separately, as that's the one place they can make extra money off you, so handle that separately.

A lot of dealers have their inventories online as well with all the information provided.

Stand your ground. Don't be afraid to just walk out of the dealership.