Goodbye, Manny: Ramirez to sit 50 games for PEDs

[path12]

Originally Posted by molson

Ramirez and Boras are apparently claiming there was a legitmate purpose here. Is that even possible?

I am beyond tired of the whole "medical reason" bullshit. You know what, IF you want to claim that's the case you've voided your right to privacy in the matter -- I want to see the doctor up in front of the cameras, the tests that were done, and most of all -- why the fuck you decided that a steroid was the only way to treat it.

Until then, no excuses. And really, even after that you still should get the damn suspension. Because you broke the rules.

[molson]

Originally Posted by path12

I am beyond tired of the whole "medical reason" bullshit. You know what, IF you want to claim that's the case you've voided your right to privacy in the matter -- I want to see the doctor up in front of the cameras, the tests that were done, and most of all -- why the fuck you decided that a steroid was the only way to treat it.

Until then, no excuses. And really, even after that you still should get the damn suspension. Because you broke the rules.

I agree. I didn't word that post well, I don't think anyone understood my point.

I agree there can't be any excuses. Zero. Even if someone slipped you something behind your back.

It makes no difference on the penalty, and it makes no different on the guilt. Boras wants to mitigate the public perception if he can, and I was just curious if his lie in this context couldn't have possibily have been true.

He can claim this mitigator, though it doesn't make any difference to the penalty, or to most people. It will though, have some effect on some people.

But if he claims there's a legitimate medical use, when this drug doesn't have any practical legitimate medical use, then that's even worse. NOT with regards to the crime of using a performance-enchancer, just in terms of telling a lie that's obviously, 100% a lie, no matter what.

[PilotMan]

This whole story stares logic straight in the face and sticks it's tongue out. As a Dodger fan, it's disappointing, but there can be no place for this in baseball. No tolerance for cheaters. Never really liked him, but liked what he did for the team. Wish we could fill that hole, but Juan Pierre is gonna have to learn how to hit real good now.

[Arles]

Honestly, I just don't care. I'm not a fan of the Red Sox or Dodgers, and this thing with Manny doesn't give me an "asterisk" for any former accomplishments - no more than I said I didn't care about A-Rod's use.

Baseball decided not to police the sport and this is what we have - "the steroids era". I'll still enjoy baseball and hope the Cards win the Series this year. If next year it comes out that Pujols used, it won't surprise me and I'll shrug my shoulders and watch baseball in 2010.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by stevew

Im still waiting for them to get Pujols. It's going to happen some day.

As a huge Cardinal fan and Pujols fan I have to agree with this. The people around St. Louis are so silly also... they demonize Bonds, laugh at Clemons, say "I knew it" about A-Rod, and then they go on about how Pujols work ethic is why he is monstrously huge. According to them anyone else could be on the juice but they are 100% sure Albert is clean. He is going to go down at some point and it really doesn't matter anymore either. Probably at that point he will just say "I used" and everyone will shrug their shoulders and move on.

[cougarfreak]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

Source: Ramirez's substance a sexual enhancer - MLB - Yahoo! Sports

Dear Lord, let him testing positive for Enzyte be true.

Or, if you've used steroids, your body stops producing testosterone. Therefore, you need the "booster".

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by molson

when this drug doesn't have any practical legitimate medical use

Sorry molson, but that's simply not accurate.

Virtually every medical reference I've looked at today, from webmd.com to several different summaries of medical studies (forgive me if I didn't bother reading the 200 pages of detailed scientific data), clearly indicated that the primary use of hcg was as a fertility drug for women and men. While the problem it's used to treat in men (hypogonadism) is something we relate to steroid abuse, that's not the only cause of it.

Whether that's why Manny used it is an entirely different question, but to say that there's no legitimate medical reason for it to ever be prescribed for any man is simply flat out wrong.

[Jas_lov]

I'm in the same boat as Arles. I don't really care anymore. All of these great players who used steroids will eventually get into the HOF so that's not an issue. I would keep watching if every player was revealed to be using steroids because I enjoy baseball. By the end of the season, the Dodgers will be in the playoffs, Manny will be back hitting like usual, and all will be forgotten.

[Galaxy]

Manny's a moron. He actually put his Boston condo on the market last year and wasn't able to move it. He put back on the market, with the economy in even more frigle state and prices falling, with a higher price tag.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sorry molson, but that's simply not accurate.

Virtually every medical reference I've looked at today, from webmd.com to several different summaries of medical studies (forgive me if I didn't bother reading the 200 pages of detailed scientific data), clearly indicated that the primary use of hcg was as a fertility drug for women and men. While the problem it's used to treat in men (hypogonadism) is something we relate to steroid abuse, that's not the only cause of it.

Whether that's why Manny used it is an entirely different question, but to say that there's no legitimate medical reason for it to ever be prescribed for any man is simply flat out wrong.

Cool, that's what I was asking, I had no idea.

[sterlingice]

I think one of the things that's gone overlooked in this is somewhat how it came out. MLB did a good job- depending on what you consider a "good job". And by "good job", I mean that it makes the player look bad. We'll get to why that's in baseball's best interest but it's going to take a lot of words.

Steroid fatigue is starting to set in. At this point, I think another large chunk of the still undecideds just decided that the intellectually lazy "they were all juicing" response was the answer. With each big admission, this is becoming more the norm. It's interesting because I think the ARod test was the tipping point. Before that, there were a few villains but now we've gone to "it could be anyone". And now we're basically in the territory of "it is everyone".

When that happens, it paints MLB, the players, the union, doctors- everyone as a bad guy. You hear lots of "the players are bad for doing it" but it's quickly followed by the refrain of "the owners are culpable for letting them do it". It also lumps the innocent in with the guilty.

It takes a simple logical test of "should I do it" into two. First, why not do it if you can get away with it is bad. But now, secondly, why fight it if you're just going to be punished the same is worse. Each shade of that reasoning taints a different group on the spectrum starting from the bad to the opportunistic to the weak to the good.

The owners have tried repeatedly to get testing put on the books. And every time they've tried, the union uses it as a bargaining chip. It should be in the union's best interest to protect the players' health. Yet they keep using this issue to cut themselves a larger slice of the pie. They've suddenly put a dollar figure on their players' health. I can easily hear Donald Fehr in my head at collective bargaining agreements saying in his nasal voice "This is as much if not more your problem than ours" as he tries to get out from under another $10M in luxury taxes, capped rookie salaries, or a world draft.

Back to the point at hand. The only way to stop this is to get the burden of blame shifted to, imho, where it rightly belongs- the players themselves who are taking the drugs. Then, by proxy, the union who protects and even leverages such behavior must also be taken to task. If MLB wants to win this battle, they have to force the union's hand.

The only time they've been able to get major changes made to the drug testing policy if after Congressional pressure was applied. But, again, like this story- that's the headline. The body of the story is that there was enough public outrage against those five players that testified in March of 2005 that the MLBPA had to cave. Just before the season started that year, the new testing policy was put in place.

This was the time line that news seemed to follow today (cobbled together from MLBTradeRumors and my memory)

* 10:30am Story leaked that Manny got a banned substance suspension
* 11am Story is then confirmed shortly thereafter
* 11:45am Manny and Boras put on Steroid Apology Press Conference (TM) that is farily well received with story about a personal issue drug- this gels with the next leak
* 12:45pm Story is leaked about the male enhancement or ED medicine
* 1:30pm ESPN has story that MLB investigators had "documentary evidence" of a female fertility drug

So, what possibly happened here was that MLB just released the story about the suspension with few details. Manny and Boras put on the patented PED apology dog and pony show with fake and nebulous believable story. Fans are mostly ok with the laughable "oops, I accidentally took a drug on the too complicated list" story and the apology starts to work. However, two hours later, MLB then drops the investigative hammer, leaking the details about the drug which completely contradict even the nebulous story. Once it's leaked that he took HGC, which was packaged to the reporters as "female fertility drugs, particularly since that's how HGC was packaged to said reporters, likely by their source.

They're trying to rush this story so they beat everyone else and, in the process, probably don't do a very thorough job of fact checking. So a partial truth becomes the reported truth, just as with most of everything, particularly heated and time-sensitive topics such as politics and controversy, and that first impression people are given is what sticks, regardless of the whole truth.

Now, no one believes that Manny is taking these drugs for "personal reasons" any more. The people who he was beginning to win back with the reasoning the ferments from these silly press conferences feel betrayed. Everyone else says "I told you so". No one really believes his story and the primary weapon these players have in these cases, the manufactured apology, has already been neutralized. It is unlikely Manny could possibly win this one in the court of public opinion.

Baseball in danger of malaise over this topic as it's not possible for it to blow over. After the ARod fiasco, people are ready to believe that everyone is juicing. The problem for baseball is that few accept that it's ok but they think everyone is doing it- there's no way to win. Yankees fans are going to accept Rodriguez back if he hits, but he will always be tainted.

The NFL has the benefit of players getting caught less frequently as well as a better PR machine. You hear a lot of "it's a tough sport" or, somehow, many people stick their heads in the sand and think that there is less use in football. They can escape this problem- it's baseball's and baseball's alone. The sport has too many players, big and small, who have more money and shouldn't be dumb enough to get caught yet still do.

So now the owners are being forced into one of two positions to get the changes the sport needs: they either have to give up something at the bargaining table for something that should be an internal union matter or cannibalize some of its own star cheaters to feed the public relations beast.

I think this time the kid gloves have come off. MLB is tired of getting a fighting the MLBPA's spin machine, helped by a media who acts like a cheated-on lover because they completely missed this story for 10 years themselves. Baseball investigated the story behind the simple drug test because without that evidence, they knew how it would turn out. We've seen it all before. And we're getting tired of it.

SI

[Galaxy]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

I think its pretty safe to assume that almost every big name guy in baseball either is still or once was on juice. Sad.

I think the same thing applies to football.

Not sure where NBA and NHL fall. The fan in me wants to think that most of those guys are clean, but the realist in me fears that those leagues simply have inadequate testing to have ever made it appear to be the issue it is in NFL/MLB.

When it comes to sports, I wish I was 10 again

Would steriod/PED use really make a huge impact in hockey?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Sorry molson, but that's simply not accurate.

Virtually every medical reference I've looked at today, from webmd.com to several different summaries of medical studies (forgive me if I didn't bother reading the 200 pages of detailed scientific data), clearly indicated that the primary use of hcg was as a fertility drug for women and men. While the problem it's used to treat in men (hypogonadism) is something we relate to steroid abuse, that's not the only cause of it.

Whether that's why Manny used it is an entirely different question, but to say that there's no legitimate medical reason for it to ever be prescribed for any man is simply flat out wrong.

see i read that it hasn't been shown to be effective as a fertility treatment for men though

[Galaxy]

Manny has three kids, correct?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

see i read that it hasn't been shown to be effective as a fertility treatment for men though

It was approved for use for men by the FDA almost 30 years ago.
U.S. APPROVES MEN'S USE OF DRUG TO HELP FERTILITY - New York Times

Whether it's effective or not doesn't change whether it's been used for that purpose. Even the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency acknowledged today that there are legitimate uses for men.

"The drug could have appropriate uses unconnected to steroid abuse, said Dr. Gary Wadler, who leads the committee that determines the banned-substances list for the World Anti-Doping Agency. HCG can treat male infertility and testosterone deficiency, he said.

"It's not necessarily the drug of choice, but those are acceptable uses," Wadler said. "

HCG, popular among steroid users, has other uses - Times-Standard Online

And that's all I was saying (in response to a question about the possibility) is that the story is at least potentially true. Has nothing to do with whether it's actually true, or likely, or anything else ... is isn't, on the face of it, absolutely 100% impossible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Manny has three kids, correct?

Dunno. Maybe he wanted four?

[DaddyTorgo]

well that's true it's not absolutely 100% impossible

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Would steriod/PED use really make a huge impact in hockey?

I don't honestly know the answer to that. It never hurts to be stronger or faster, so I guess it would just depend on how much agility/mobility a guy would lose. I don't know enough about 'roids to really make a solid opinion one way or the other.

[PilotMan]

It's is very hard to be on Manny's side in all (any) of this. It fails logic over and over.

He has a job that pays well, he has drug rules that must be followed. He has access to the best doc's via the team. Even if he goes another route and picks his own doc, he can get a waiver for a drug through MLB. He has a responsibility to his employer to be on the same page. He has enough money to hire a team of guys to make sure that he is legal. How do you take a substance from a guy outside baseball, who say's "oh yeah, that stuff's fine, you'll be all right," without checking with anybody else? You don't.

I have a job, and responsibilities to my company. I have no fans. I get drug tested. I am not allowed to work and while taking certain substances. I have to pass a physical regularly, to prove that I am still healthy for work.

All of these things are not unlike Manny, the Dodgers and MLB. If I did what he did, I would be fired and out of work. Possibly never to return to my career. Ever. That my friends, is the real world.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

It's is very hard to be on Manny's side in all (any) of this. It fails logic over and over.

He has a job that pays well, he has drug rules that must be followed. He has access to the best doc's via the team. Even if he goes another route and picks his own doc, he can get a waiver for a drug through MLB. He has a responsibility to his employer to be on the same page. He has enough money to hire a team of guys to make sure that he is legal. How do you take a substance from a guy outside baseball, who say's "oh yeah, that stuff's fine, you'll be all right," without checking with anybody else? You don't.

I have a job, and responsibilities to my company. I have no fans. I get drug tested. I am not allowed to work and while taking certain substances. I have to pass a physical regularly, to prove that I am still healthy for work.

All of these things are not unlike Manny, the Dodgers and MLB. If I did what he did, I would be fired and out of work. Possibly never to return to my career. Ever. That my friends, is the real world.

I agrees.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Would steriod/PED use really make a huge impact in hockey?

Why not? Steroids tend to help reducing fatigue after workouts (or games).

[path12]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

well that's true it's not absolutely 100% impossible

Yeah, but DT, that's a bullshit level of proof. Occam's Razor, man. It may not be 100% impossible that the story is legit -- but it's far more likely seeing how it is a common drug used in steroid cycles by bodybuilders, etc, that Manny's use was related to that.

That's how famous people skate through trials ''Oh, you can't prove 100% that it was his DNA".

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by path12

Yeah, but DT, that's a bullshit level of proof. Occam's Razor, man. It may not be 100% impossible that the story is legit -- but it's far more likely seeing how it is a common drug used in steroid cycles by bodybuilders, etc, that Manny's use was related to that.

That's how famous people skate through trials ''Oh, you can't prove 100% that it was his DNA".

Oh I agree Path. I was just conceding Jon's point that it wasn't 100% impossible, because technically, literally, it is not 100% impossible. It's 99.9% improbable, but not 100% impossible.

[path12]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Oh I agree Path. I was just conceding Jon's point that it wasn't 100% impossible, because technically, literally, it is not 100% impossible. It's 99.9% improbable, but not 100% impossible.

Yeah, I saw that as I read further down the thread. Just cranky today and reacted instead of went through everything.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I was just conceding Jon's point that it wasn't 100% impossible, because technically, literally, it is not 100% impossible.

And I, in turn, was only making that point in pretty direct response to a question up the thread about (paraphrasing) whether there was even a remote chance, however slight, that the story was true.

[King of New York]

I think the most likely explanation is that Manny and others are searching out performance-enhancing products that have legitimate purposes and then using them, figuring that if they get busted, they can always claim that "I was using it for the legitimate purpose, not to become a better baseball player." It's impossible to prove otherwise. Manny and Boras probably had their defense argument in place long before he was ever tested.

[Sgran]

Next question: did Manny get busted because he left the sanctity of the Boston Red Sox?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Next question: did Manny get busted because he left the sanctity of the Boston Red Sox?

Awesome conspiracy theory

I approve!

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Sgran

Next question: did Manny get busted because he left the sanctity of the Boston Red Sox?

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Awesome conspiracy theory

I approve!

And it happened the day before Alex Rodriguez comes back

[bulletsponge]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Awesome conspiracy theory

I approve!

Ortiz still hasnt been busted yet, so maybe.

[terpkristin]

Scientific American's website had a little blurby on HCG today:
Why would a male athlete like Manny Ramirez take a chemical used as a female fertility drug?: Scientific American Blog

Sadly, it doesn't answer the one question I think everybody has: is there a clinical reason it would be perscribed to a male, aside from the post-steroid uses that we've been reading/hearing about since the story broke?

The news broke yesterday that Los Angeles Dodgers slugger Manny Ramirez was being suspended for 50 games for violating Major League Baseball's performance-enhancing drug policy. Ramirez, 36, was suspended after baseball officials discovered he had been prescribed human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG), according to the New York Times. HCG is a hormone used as a fertility drug in women—so what would a male athlete stand to gain by using it?

In a statement released by the players' union, Ramirez provided few details, saying only that the suspension, which he is not appealing, stemmed from "a medication, not a steroid" that his doctor prescribed "for a personal health issue."

We checked in with Andrew Kicman, head of R&D at the King's College London Drug Control Center and lead author of the 1991 study "Human chorionic gonadotrophin and sport," published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine.

In addition to helping women conceive, Kicman says, HCG can be used to artificially stimulate testosterone production in men, which in turn boosts muscle strength and overall athletic performance, "but this will only result in a two- to three-fold increase [in testosterone] in the serum for a few days following injection." That may sound like a lot, but doping regimens often increase testosterone levels by double that amount.

For pure testosterone-boosting purposes, Kicman adds, athletes have superior cheats available. "I don't think any well-informed individual would use HCG for this purpose," he says, "especially with the availability of short-acting preparations of testosterone," such as gels that can be applied to the skin. (Indeed, Ramirez was also found to have artificial testosterone in his body, according to ESPN's sources, but was apparently suspended for HCG on the strength of the documentary evidence for his using it.)

The hormone does, however, help male athletes right their chemical balance after the use of other performance enhancers. "Basically, HCG may be used in an attempt to prevent testicular atrophy (shrinkage) that otherwise may occur when using anabolic steroids for prolonged periods," Kicman says. Anabolic steroids are synthetic substances derived from male sex hormones that promote improved endurance and boost muscle mass and strength. "HCG may also be used," he says, "following cessation of prolonged anabolic steroid use, to try to hasten a return to normal testicular function," when the athlete would have very low levels of circulating male hormones.

/tk

[Logan]

Today's NY Post had a bunch of player reactions to the Manny news. Carlos Pena, you're my hero:

"It hurts me deeply. For one, I'm a huge fan, so its just sad for sure. When I had Sega Genesis, I used to be him."

[ISiddiqui]

LOL! That's awesome Carlos Pena!