The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

And that's still better than defaulting in a week.

Unless it makes next year's crash even worse. Eventually you MUST pay the piper.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

And push it off another year.

Which it has been for the last 10 years if I remember correctly. Why is this year any different than the last decade of debt ceiling raises?

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Talking about eliminating education and energy may be a fine intellectual exercise, but it's so far from a realistic option that it does nothing o find a solution to the debt or deficit. There is zero chance of either department getting eliminated, so if you actually want to solve the problem in the real world you need to have solutions that are politically viable.

There's zero chance because of the idiots involved. It's a realistic option. It's just not one that the idiots in charge are capable of making.

[JPhillips]

The public would never go along with eliminating education and energy. Any attempt to do so would just be answered by a wave of newly elected folks pledging to restore most of those departments. It's not a politically viable alternative.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The public would never go along with eliminating education and energy. Any attempt to do so would just be answered by a wave of newly elected folks pledging to restore most of those departments. It's not a politically viable alternative.

They would if it was shown WHY it needs to be eliminated. If we have idiots decrying the children who will go without an education as a scare tactic, you're correct. That's where responsible leadership comes in. We have none of that. My point stands.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by panerd

As a teacher I completely support eliminating the department of education. ... NCLB is one of the biggest jokes to anyone actually involved in education, just encourages systematic fraud and that every child in a low income area is left behind.

Now that's a shock. Oh, wait, no it isn't.

For all its flaws, it's at least an attempt at accountability on behalf of the taxpayers, something woefully lacking for far too long.

[JPhillips]

My plan to solve the deficit is to return to Eisenhower top tax rates. And don't tell me 90% tax rates are unrealistic. The public just needs to be told the truth and not fed scare tactics.

Leadership = 90% top tax rate

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

For all its flaws, it's at least an attempt at accountability on behalf of the taxpayers, something woefully lacking for far too long.

Actually, it's pretending to be an attempt at accountability. Although I agree it's going to be fun to watch the scramble around here as the reassignment battle is overshadowed by Federal Law allowing so many families to pick a school with all the schools that have failed the improvement standards 2 years in a row.

But if the Federal government would just get out of education entirely, we'd be able to fix things at a local level much more easily without having the "but Federal guidelines state..." mantra thrown in our faces all the time.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

My plan to solve the deficit is to return to Eisenhower top tax rates. And don't tell me 90% tax rates are unrealistic. The public just needs to be told the truth and not fed scare tactics.

Leadership = 90% top tax rate

Good, back to Eisenhower. Medicare is GONE.

[JPhillips]

From Andrew Sprung:

What would have felt like leadership from a Democratic president in 2011? Outline a deficit reduction/tax reform plan that included new stimulus at the outset, backloaded spending cuts and at least $2 trillion in new revenue over ten years. Refuse definitively, early and often to tie deficit reduction talks to the debt ceiling; insist early, loud and often that the debt ceiling must be raised unconditionally, and threaten to use the Constitutional option if it weren't. Say to the GOP: I'm ready and willing to negotiate - call me when you're ready to consider revenue increases. Eschew high-drama deadlines, and make it clear that the Bush tax cut expiration date is the endgame.

If only...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Although I agree it's going to be fun to watch the scramble around here as the reassignment battle is overshadowed by Federal Law allowing so many families to pick a school with all the schools that have failed the improvement standards 2 years in a row.

If that goes according to the norm, the "choice" is often laughable since it is, in practice, largely limited by transfer within the same system (and often that offers no real chance for improvement"). Parents in smaller systems particularly found that provision to be essentially meaningless.

But if the Federal government would just get out of education entirely, we'd be able to fix things at a local level much more easily without having the "but Federal guidelines state..." mantra thrown in our faces all the time.

But "entirely" means ENTIRELY, otherwise it doesn't work. And that means in all aspects, not just education administration ... which is why it'll never happen. Separately, I definitely dispute the notion that anything gets solved locally more easily, the "fixes" I've seen locally are commonly designed to protect a few sacred cows more than anything else.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

From Andrew Sprung:

If only...

Agreed in principle, but backloaded spending cuts are like temporary tax increases - they'll change it all when we get closer. I agree with the principle of what's said there, just not all the details. He should threaten the Constitutional option, propose bi-partisan spending cuts (Defense and Medicare, for example), and appropriate tax reform, point out that both sides are giving up on sacred cows to make it happen, and lay it all on the table.

Instead he's just as wishy-washy as the rest of them.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

But "entirely" means ENTIRELY, otherwise it doesn't work. And that means in all aspects, not just education administration ... which is why it'll never happen. Separately, I definitely dispute the notion that anything gets solved locally more easily, the "fixes" I've seen locally are commonly designed to protect a few sacred cows more than anything else.

Yes, entirely, agreed, and I didn't say the fixes would come, just that they'd be easier.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Franklin (R-Marietta) is actually better known lately for things such as "bills requiring the exclusive use of gold and silver as tender in payment of debts by or to the state; a bill seeking to eliminate crop management regulations; another bill banning forced vaccinations; a bill to stop the collection of the Georgia income tax; another to stop all property taxes and yet another to end eminent domain." He seems to have become a rather odd mix of extreme religious right AND extreme libertarianism. Imagine Ron Paul crossed with Pat Robertson if you can. I suspect he's going for the title of "Author of Most Bills That Never Get Out of Committee" this year.

I thought I remembered his name coming up here, so I'll mention this.

Police have confirmed that Rep. Bobby Franklin was found dead at his Cobb County, GA home earlier today. Investigators on the scene, no details on the circumstances yet at all.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Here's a start. Its funny that all the people laughing at him and telling him how wrong he is are the "experts" talking on tv now about what will happen if we don't raise the debt ceiling...

It's also funny how almost all his predictions at the beginning of last decade were wrong. I'm sorry, he has been shouting about bear markets for over 10 years. At some point when it comes to the markets, you're going to be right if you keep saying the same thing over and over.

There is a video of him talking about how the DOW will fall to 2,000. How the NASDAQ will hit 500. Why are these ignored when talking about the great Peter Schiff?

He was wrong about Gold hitting 2000 a couple years ago, wrong about hyperinflation, wrong about the dollar, wrong on treasuries, wrong on interest rates, wrong on China's economy, wrong on foreign stocks. Pretty much wrong on everything else he predicted in 2008.

If you were a client of his and followed his advice, you would have lost almost every dime you had. The fact he has reached some legendary status in some circles is laughable. That's not to say others don't deserve scowl for their bad predictions. But you guys are literally pulling one prediction he had at one time that came true and ignoring the other hundred or so that didn't just come wrong, but weren't even close.

Here is the video of Peter Schiff predicting the DOW to fall to 2000 back in 2002. Lets hope no one took his advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhJaV...ailpage#t=254s

[RainMaker]

You're never going to eliminate many of the duties of the DOE. So the talk of it by politicians is more of a gimmick to make it look like they are eliminating bloated beuracracies and shrinking government. You may get rid of the name, but you're simply shifting the responsibilities on to another group. The country isn't going to stop creating/maintaining nuclear materials that are used in weapons and for energy. They aren't going to stop safely disposing of nuclear waste.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by rowech

Used to be education was managed my local districts, then to state level, now to national level. How has that worked out for us over the last 30-40 years?

I'm talking about energy, not education, sorry. Forgot both are DOE. I don't know much about the Department of Education so I can't comment, but I do know Energy handles basically all the nuclear material from start to finish in the country.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's also funny how almost all his predictions at the beginning of last decade were wrong. I'm sorry, he has been shouting about bear markets for over 10 years. At some point when it comes to the markets, you're going to be right if you keep saying the same thing over and over.

Yeah, Peter Schiff has been wrong at least as much as he's been right. But in his defense (not that I particularly have a fondness for him)...a lot of what he says could be true if not for external interventions. Now...the fact that he doesn't (appear to) foresee those external interventions is probably why you don't want to follow his advice.

But he does point out fundamental market driver issues that I think are sometimes insightful sprinkled in with his doom & gloom.

[sterlingice]

Sadly, the deal I liked the most was the one that Boehner and Obama worked out tho the details entirely came out before Boehner got cut out at the knees by Cantor, preening to the tea party, who doesn't even like him to begin with. $3.5T in cuts, $0.5T in taxes, structural changes to Social Security and Medicare that were at least a start on what those programs needed to stay solvent - it wasn't awful nor was it great but it was the type of things that two deal makers could come together on and actually would have accomplished quite a bit. Some of the rumors had Boehner even taking Obama out and not allowing him to decouple the upper class tax cuts from the middle class tax cuts except for a possibility in the future but that even didn't fly.

SI

[panerd]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Yeah, Peter Schiff has been wrong at least as much as he's been right. But in his defense (not that I particularly have a fondness for him)...a lot of what he says could be true if not for external interventions. Now...the fact that he doesn't (appear to) foresee those external interventions is probably why you don't want to follow his advice.

But he does point out fundamental market driver issues that I think are sometimes insightful sprinkled in with his doom & gloom.

+1

Yeah sometimes economists that aren't tied into the government don't forsee 16 trillion being given by our federal reserve to foreign banks. But hey what's $16,000,000,000,000? At least we have our iphones and all of the economists on the government take that will tell us if we go out and spend and stop worrying about unemployment and inflation everything will be fine! Why listen to someone like Peter Schiff that sees the massive house of cards thats about to collapse? I thought this was the sort of system that Bernie Madoff went to jail for trying to run?

[PilotMan]

[panerd]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's also funny how almost all his predictions at the beginning of last decade were wrong. I'm sorry, he has been shouting about bear markets for over 10 years. At some point when it comes to the markets, you're going to be right if you keep saying the same thing over and over.

There is a video of him talking about how the DOW will fall to 2,000. How the NASDAQ will hit 500. Why are these ignored when talking about the great Peter Schiff?

He was wrong about Gold hitting 2000 a couple years ago, wrong about hyperinflation, wrong about the dollar, wrong on treasuries, wrong on interest rates, wrong on China's economy, wrong on foreign stocks. Pretty much wrong on everything else he predicted in 2008.

If you were a client of his and followed his advice, you would have lost almost every dime you had. The fact he has reached some legendary status in some circles is laughable. That's not to say others don't deserve scowl for their bad predictions. But you guys are literally pulling one prediction he had at one time that came true and ignoring the other hundred or so that didn't just come wrong, but weren't even close.

Here is the video of Peter Schiff predicting the DOW to fall to 2000 back in 2002. Lets hope no one took his advice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhJaV...ailpage#t=254s

Yep what a loon, Good thing someone wouldn't go out and buy gold back in 2000. Those crazy anti-government goldbugs. Lol. Invest in stocks! How exactly would you lose every dime you have Rainmaker? Maybe you need to re-watch the videos?

[JediKooter]

I think I'll do some gold panning this weekend.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

I think I'll do some gold panning this weekend.

It's funny how the statists just result to being ignorant when simple facts (gold 5x it's value since 2000, stocks lower now than 2000) Oh well, put more of your 401K in Enron and Bank of America. lol (Seriously, I guess the government will probably come save you when the banks all go under)

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by panerd

It's funny how the statists just result to being ignorant when simple facts (gold 5x it's value since 2000, stocks lower now than 2000) Oh well, put more of your 401K in Enron and Bank of America. lol (Seriously, I guess the government will probably come save you when the banks all go under)

Be careful what you wish for. Historical gains are not a prediction of future returns. If you had said this in 1980 you would have been laughed at for the next 20 years!

[JPhillips]

Peter Schiff can not fail. We can only fail Peter Schiff.

[JediKooter]

Originally Posted by panerd

It's funny how the statists just result to being ignorant when simple facts (gold 5x it's value since 2000, stocks lower now than 2000) Oh well, put more of your 401K in Enron and Bank of America. lol (Seriously, I guess the government will probably come save you when the banks all go under)

Won't need no government bailout when I find the mother lode.

[SirFozzie]

The GOP has started to take the appearance of a circular firing squad: (well,. it was either that or Lord of the Flies)

GOPers chant 'fire him' at Paul Teller - John Bresnahan and Jake Sherman - POLITICO.com

[JediKooter]

Sounds like the eating of their young has begun.

[JPhillips]

This is what I fear:

BOEHNER: Well, first they want more. And my goodness, I want more too. And secondly, a lot of them believe that if we get passed August the second and we have enough chaos, we could force the Senate and the White House to accept a balanced budget amendment. I’m not sure that that — I don’t think that that strategy works. Because I think the closer we get to August the second, frankly, the less leverage we have vis a vis our colleagues in the Senate and the White House.

[gstelmack]

Debt ceiling fight: Good going, guys - Jul. 27, 2011

Nice graph at the top showing that even with a return to the ~20% of GDP tax revenue, social security, medicare, and the interest on the debt will kill us. The article also points out the flaws from both sides, and notes that neither plan being debated right now actually fixes anything.

[RainMaker]

I did sell a bunch of investments today. I don't think there is going to be any deal. This is going to be ugly.

[panerd]

Once again I will wager with anyone that they reach a deal. It's all a game to them and member of both parties love shelling our tax money to the people that bought them off. Certain of no deal and a collapse? Make easy money off panerd.

[JediKooter]

This shit just got serious. McCain calling the Tea Party, hobbits and he referenced Mordor...

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/j...200836239.html

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by panerd

Once again I will wager with anyone that they reach a deal. It's all a game to them and member of both parties love shelling our tax money to the people that bought them off. Certain of no deal and a collapse? Make easy money off panerd.

I can see it happening and wouldn't bet against it. At the same time, the whole thing seems really odd to me with so many outside forces at work. I sold stuff mainly to avoid any stress in the coming weeks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

This shit just got serious. McCain calling the Tea Party, hobbits and he referenced Mordor...

That washed-up RINO is still alive? And in office?

Gonna have to fix that last bit, he can live out his years in the Home For Miserably Failed Pseudo-Conservative Political Hacks ... preferably securely encased in a cone of silence.

(And I'm actually in favor of raising the debt ceiling under relatively light conditions)

[JediKooter]

I just thought it was funny that he had to go all the way to Middle Earth to say something.

I don't know, give him long white hair and a long white beard, he might be able to pass for Gandalf.

[SirFozzie]

He was quoting the New York Times editorial that said that.

[JPhillips]

David Frum has a nice insight:

The big benefit of the Boehner plan is that it is seen to be imposed – and the current GOP mindset is that it’s better to gain less by show of force than to get more by negotiation.

[SirFozzie]

And they post pone the House vote AGAIN because they don't have the votes to pass a R plan.

The party of NO strikes again! They can't say yes, even to themselves!

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

And they post pone the House vote AGAIN because they don't have the votes to pass a R plan.

And the Senate voted to approve the Reid plan when?

[miked]

I don't understand it. The Reid plan calls for 2.5T in cuts with no revenue increases, Obama wanted a 4T cut with tax reform and returning to Clinton levels on 250k+, yet Boehner is trying to pass a barely 1T tax cut bill that promises to create more commissions. It would appear nobody listens to the commissions anyway. All so they can do this again next year? I think the only opposition to the Reid plan is that it raises the debt limit enough to avoid this until the next presidential term.

Was it me, or were the republicans calling for a plan that cut spending by as much as the ceiling was raised, without tax increases. So what's wrong with the Reid plan?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

And they post pone the House vote AGAIN because they don't have the votes to pass a R plan.

Upon further review, it seems more accurate to say they can't pass a Boehner plan. It's becoming increasingly apparent that he may not have the mandate to speak for the R's at this point.

Remember, one plan has already passed the House.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And the Senate voted to approve the Reid plan when?

You see, Jon, it may have slipped your mind, but both sides really want to go second, assuming the other side's going to fail, so they can claim that they have the only bill that's passed.

Then Boehner got a bright idea. Pass his bill FIRST, and then Obama and the Senate would "fold like a cheap suit" (pretty much their exact words). But guess what? He can't get it done. This is strike 2. Your cohorts on the right of the right wing would rather see the country burn down then do anything like *shudder* working with the ENEMY (which I'm sure you applaud), but Boehner knows that if there's a default or if the credit gets downgraded, the R's are going to get the lion share of the blame (even the conservative leaning folks like the New York Times recognize that)

The funny thing is that the Democrats are actuallytrying to do more to fix the deficit then the R's are. One side is playing political games, the other side is trying to govern a country.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Upon further review, it seems more accurate to say they can't pass a Boehner plan. It's becoming increasingly apparent that he may not have the mandate to speak for the R's at this point.

Remember, one plan has already passed the House.

Yes, The Cut, Crap and Imbalanced Plan. Otherwise known as "The wet dream of Grover Norquist". Symbolic, yes. But all the R's have left are symbols.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Upon further review, it seems more accurate to say they can't pass a Boehner plan. It's becoming increasingly apparent that he may not have the mandate to speak for the R's at this point.

Remember, one plan has already passed the House.

Sort of. The Cut Cap Balance only has the promise of another vote to lift the debt ceiling if a bunch of other things happen.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Sort of. The Cut Cap Balance only has the promise of another vote to lift the debt ceiling if a bunch of other things happen.

Including 2/3'ds of the states passing a balanced budget amendment in the next four days.

As I said, things that are only R's wet dreams.

[SirFozzie]

Dola: Oh wow, this may be Night of the Long Knives stuff. Redstate and a couple other places have decided that Speaker Boehner has decided to get back at RSC Chairman Jim Jordan for opposing the plan, and have decided to eliminate his district in this round of redistricting. This has gone over as well as you can imagine.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

You see, Jon, it may have slipped your mind, but both sides really want to go second, assuming the other side's going to fail, so they can claim that they have the only bill that's passed.

But you hate that since you (claim) to hate that anyone is "playing games" with this, right?

This is strike 2. Your cohorts on the right of the right wing would rather see the country burn down then do anything like *shudder* working with the ENEMY

At the moment there isn't anything to vote on, the Senate hasn't actually done anything other than talk.

One side is playing political games, the other side is trying to govern a country.

Seems we're close to the point of having three sides ... one that doesn't have enough support for half measures to get something through, one that would lead starving dogs straight off a cliff in search of fresh meat they know doesn't exist anyway, and one that has both enough clout & enough sense to craft something that can pass at least one chamber. Tell me again which side is getting things done ... unless of course that rather obvious truth sticks in your throat too badly. In that case I'll let you off the hook, anybody with even one eye connected to their brain can see which is which.

Incidentally, just ftr, based on what I've seen of the two plans still lingering, even I'm not entirely sure that there's a significant difference in the two ... except that the larger one is pretty obviously designed to give political cover to their lame duck.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Dola: Oh wow, this may be Night of the Long Knives stuff. Redstate and a couple other places have decided that Speaker Boehner has decided to get back at RSC Chairman Jim Jordan for opposing the plan, and have decided to eliminate his district in this round of redistricting. This has gone over as well as you can imagine.

At this rate, Bonehead may be lucky to be Speaker by the time the cap is eventually raised.