FBI Opens Investigation into Shooting of Michael Brown

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Wilson was a sitting target and took a shot from a 300-pound man. Perhaps, I know this is crazy, he should have pulled out his baton or used the hand-to-hand training that he is taught, including taking down people larger than himself and subdued the suspect.

If Brown had any type of weapon, even a large rock, I would likely feel different. But not when the man was completely unarmed.

You may have to remind us on the specifics of this training that turns ordinary citizens into super soldiers.

[HomerSimpson98]

that starts at the end of Police Academy 4 and is the main theme of Police Academy 5. All are required watching.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

For those arguing, please read the grand jury report (or at least the highlights). Wilson's account is backed up by other witnesses and the forensic evidence. Brown did something criminal and stupid and it cost him his life. The lesson should be to not assault a cop (or anyone for that matter) who has a gun on them. It's not going to end well.

There are also 4 or 5 witnesses (IN the grand jury report) who back the version that said Wilson overreacted and was in no danger when he shot Brown. And Wilson said Brown was 20-30 feet from the car, which isn't correct based on the grand jury report, which said it was 150 feet. Once again, TRIAL is what is needed to sort out these differences.

FWIW, I was someone who during the Trayvon Martin trial vociferously defended George Zimmerman once I realized the facts supported him (IMO). You can check out the thread on it. So I'm not just pushing an agenda here, I'm disturbed by the fact that contract fact pattern won't be contested at trial.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Dutch

You may have to remind us on the specifics of this training that turns ordinary citizens into super soldiers.

Huh? Cops are trained in hand-to-hand combat. If they weren't, you could pay any scrub $7.25 an hour to walk around and pull the trigger any time they perceived a threatening situation.

One is supposedly trained, the other is likely a clumsy oaf. Regardless of size, I know which one I'm putting my money on in a struggle. Hell, the cop should at least be more agile and be able to keep out of the 300-pound attackers way until help arrives.

I just don't see how anyone can say the best option for a trained police officer in a struggle with an unarmed man is for him to empty his weapon into him. That is simply fucking frightening.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Wilson was a sitting target and took a shot from a 300-pound man. Perhaps, I know this is crazy, he should have pulled out his baton or used the hand-to-hand training that he is taught, including taking down people larger than himself and subdued the suspect.

If Brown had any type of weapon, even a large rock, I would likely feel different. But not when the man was completely unarmed.

Perhaps, I know this is crazy, the large man shouldn't physically attack a man, let alone a police officer.

This idea that a person being attacked has to turn into some kung-fu master to peacefully disarm the situation is insane to me. If your life is in danger from an attack, you have a right to use lethal force to stop it. I really hope none of you guys pop up in any of the domestic violence topics with this same stance.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Huh? Cops are trained in hand-to-hand combat. If they weren't, you could pay any scrub $7.25 an hour to walk around and pull the trigger any time they perceived a threatening situation.

One is supposedly trained, the other is likely a clumsy oaf. Regardless of size, I know which one I'm putting my money on in a struggle. Hell, the cop should at least be more agile and be able to keep out of the 300-pound attackers way until help arrives.

I just don't see how anyone can say the best option for a trained police officer in a struggle with an unarmed man is for him to empty his weapon into him. That is simply fucking frightening.

Even trained professional fighters would struggle to stop an individual with that kind of a size advantage on them. This isn't the movies. Size wins out in fights more often than not.

[BillJasper]

Doesn't seem like you need to be a Kung-Fu master. From the St.Louis County Police Training:

Concepts of Defensive Tactics/Use of Force 4.0
The recruit is introduced to the fundamental concepts of subject control, whether on the street or in a correctional setting. Emphasis is placed upon the need for understanding concepts and continuous practice to allow the officer to effectively control a subject or effectively overcome the physical threat which the subject may officer . The proper use of force and the use of force continuum are discussed.

Use of Force Scenarios 4.0
This section will allow the recruit to become involved in simulated arrest situations where it will become necessary to use force to make the arrest. Great importance will be placed on de-escalation verbal skills, as well as, proper form when executing a defensive tactic technique.

Ground Control 8.0
The Ground Defense/Control Tactics course is designed to teach the recruit physical techniques to defend against an attack while on the ground. By the use of various blocks, strikes, locks and control techniques the recruit will be able to control and individual, either armed or unarmed,
from various positions on the ground.

http://www.stlouisco.com/LawandPubli...ments#training

[RainMaker]

So every officer should be trained to take down suspects of any size and background? Because I hate to break it to you, I could easily beat most of the women in our local police force. I've got a solid 60-70 pound weight advantage and much more muscle mass. Nothing they learn in training is going to overcome that.

I don't know what experience you have in combat but a person of Mike Brown's size will beat someone of Darren Wilson's size in hand to hand combat regardless of the training Wilson has.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I don't know what experience you have in combat but a person of Mike Brown's size will beat someone of Darren Wilson's size in hand to hand combat regardless of the training Wilson has.

It looked like it from the wound Brown inflicted on Wilson. A dumb kid vs. a trained police officer. The Ferguson PD should've buried that photo of Wilson.

If it was one of your kids, I'd guarantee you'd be wondering why Wilson didn't try to subdue them in some manner other than emptying his service revolver in them. Regardless of whether they were the one to start the escalation.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Arles

Not according to the numbers on Police shootings. I usually like 538, but that article was incredibly misleading. It is very difficult to get an indictment on an officer shooting where any kind of assault takes place. Unless the guy is sitting on the ground in handcuffs and an officer shoots him, it's tough to prove:


I already cited three cases in NY alone that were much more egregious (including one where the victim was shot on the bottom of his foot). Cops just don't get indicted unless it's an open-shut case. If there's any grey area, they often get off because of the statutes set by the Supreme Court for on-duty law officers.

As an aside, I agree that all officers should wear cameras - if only to protect themselves.

I'm with you on that 538 article. Its disturbing, but its the exact opposite of what the title says - grand juries almost always issue indictments except in officer involved shootings.

BTW, Missouri governor is now calling in 1500 National Guard troops? If only anyone could've predicted there might be riots last night

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It looked like it from the wound Brown inflicted on Wilson. A dumb kid vs. a trained police officer. The Ferguson PD should've buried that photo of Wilson.

If it was one of your kids, I'd guarantee you'd be wondering why Wilson didn't try to subdue them in some manner other than emptying his service revolver in them. Regardless of whether they were the one to start the escalation.

The damage to his face has little to do with his self-defense claim. It just shows there was a prior altercation. I don't know why it matters whether his injuries are severe enough for you or not.

A much larger man charged at him in an attempt to inflict serious bodily harm. He defended himself. Just as you would be able to make the same exact claim if a 300 pound man charged at you with intent to harm.

It's pretty simple. Don't assault people and you won't get shot. Defending this kind of behavior is why the community is where it is.

[tarcone]

A dumb kid? he was 6'4" and 300 lb. That kid is the size of an NFL lineman. And someone that dumb and that size is going to be lethal.
This isnt your kid on the playground. Or my kid, who is all of 120 lbs.
This is a huge adult male that was bent on escaping.

What was Wilson to do? "Calm down, citizen. Please do not reach for my gun. Please do not punch my head."

Is that proper de-escalation verbal technique?

[tarcone]

There has been calls for Gov. Nixon to be removed from office for not calling up the NG last night.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

BTW, Missouri governor is now calling in 1500 National Guard troops? If only anyone could've predicted there might be riots last night

In fairness to the Governor, it seems like a no-win situation. When they bring in more bodies they are "militarizing the protests". When they sit back they are "letting people destroy the city".

People want to blame everyone but the actual criminals.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

In fairness to the Governor, it seems like a no-win situation. When they bring in more bodies they are "militarizing the protests". When they sit back they are "letting people destroy the city".

This, this, a thousand hundred million times this.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So every officer should be trained to take down suspects of any size and background? Because I hate to break it to you, I could easily beat most of the women in our local police force. I've got a solid 60-70 pound weight advantage and much more muscle mass. Nothing they learn in training is going to overcome that.

I don't know what experience you have in combat but a person of Mike Brown's size will beat someone of Darren Wilson's size in hand to hand combat regardless of the training Wilson has.

Wearing a badge and a gun doesn't make you invincible... I'm not saying Wilson should've rolled up his window and booked it out of there, but yes there plenty of things Wilson could've done so he didn't put himself in a situation where deadly force or getting his ass kicked were the only 2 options. Such as calling for backup sometime between when he initially fired his gun and when he chased him 50+ yards from the car. Or figuring out a way a place in the car to have the department issue taser that I believe he said he couldn't fit on his belt. Our military has more restrictive R.O.E. than that in war zones.

But hey, I'll also argue that quite a few of those 100 pound female cops (as well as any other cop that is scared during their beat of confronting certain suspects) shouldn't be doing certain things alone.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Wearing a badge and a gun doesn't make you invincible... I'm not saying Wilson should've rolled up his window and booked it out of there, but yes there plenty of things Wilson could've done so he didn't put himself in a situation where deadly force or getting his ass kicked were the only 2 options. Such as calling for backup sometime between when he initially fired his gun and when he chased him 50+ yards from the car. Or figuring out a way a place in the car to have the department issue taser that I believe he said he couldn't fit on his belt. Our military has more restrictive R.O.E. than that in war zones.

But hey, I'll also argue that quite a few of those 100 pound female cops (as well as any other cop that is scared during their beat of confronting certain suspects) shouldn't be doing certain things alone.

I'm sure there are things he could have done differently. I also don't think the onus is on him (technically the victim of the assault). It is just weird to me that he should be the one to cater to the criminal instead of the other way around.

He also did call for backup. And he did say in his testimony that a taser wouldn't have mattered. He was unable to get to it in the vehicle because he was using his left hand to block punches to his face. I'd add that a taser is a nice tool to have but in a life and death situation, I'd rather have the gun. You get one shot with a taser and if you miss, you're fucked.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

It looked like it from the wound Brown inflicted on Wilson. A dumb kid vs. a trained police officer. The Ferguson PD should've buried that photo of Wilson.

If it was one of your kids, I'd guarantee you'd be wondering why Wilson didn't try to subdue them in some manner other than emptying his service revolver in them. Regardless of whether they were the one to start the escalation.

We can play with these fallacies all day.

I can promise you if it were your son who was the officer, you would be asking everyone else what he was supposed to do when he was attacked by a 300 pound pissed off criminal?

Brown isn't my son, Wilson isn't my son. I wish a million things differently happened on that fateful day. They didn't.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

In fairness to the Governor, it seems like a no-win situation. When they bring in more bodies they are "militarizing the protests". When they sit back they are "letting people destroy the city".

People want to blame everyone but the actual criminals.

In my experience 2 things work to stop a large crowd like this - either using your line of SWAT officers to march through and mow people down with rubber bullets/capsaicin (which I agree is a no go here), or an overwhelming show of force before the thugs and idiots start throwing bottles and trying to break into stores. (Preferably with groups of 2-3 plainclothes officers in the crowd that can quickly isolate, arrest, and drag away the few people that still want to instigate by throwing anything.)

Anyone rioting is a criminal, but 95% of them are sheep who get caught up in the mob mentality and wouldn't be doing shit unless they saw others getting away with it next to them. But once those people start and aren't moved on it hits a tipping point and its either move in with violence or let everything peter out on its own... And we saw option #2 last night.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I'm sure there are things he could have done differently. I also don't think the onus is on him (technically the victim of the assault). It is just weird to me that he should be the one to cater to the criminal instead of the other way around.

He also did call for backup. And he did say in his testimony that a taser wouldn't have mattered. He was unable to get to it in the vehicle because he was using his left hand to block punches to his face. I'd add that a taser is a nice tool to have but in a life and death situation, I'd rather have the gun. You get one shot with a taser and if you miss, you're fucked.

He was unable to get to the taser between when Brown backed up and when the 300 pound guy got 50 yards from the vehicle? Was Brown committed to Alabama at DT?

Being a cop is dangerous. So is playing sports. I'm more than willing to take a hit when I have to, but that doesnt mean I go skating across the middle with my head down. If a cop is in what they believe to be a life or death situation, the aggressor runs away and hasn't shown a gun or any danger to other civilians, yeah I think discretion is the better part of valor and you should wait for your backup.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

He was unable to get to the taser between when Brown backed up and when the 300 pound guy got 50 yards from the vehicle? Was Brown committed to Alabama at DT?

Being a cop is dangerous. So is playing sports. I'm more than willing to take a hit when I have to, but that doesnt mean I go skating across the middle with my head down. If a cop is in what they believe to be a life or death situation, the aggressor runs away and hasn't shown a gun or any danger to other civilians, yeah I think discretion is the better part of valor and you should wait for your backup.

The cop wasn't in a life or death situation till he charged at him. As for chasing after him, that's what cops do. They run and catch the bad guys. If the bad guys decide they want to hurt you, they get shot. I don't think it should be as controversial as it is. Brown had a choice in this. His poor decisions cost him his life.

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The cop wasn't in a life or death situation till he charged at him. As for chasing after him, that's what cops do.

Even if he already compared himself to a five-year-old and Hulk Hogan? What was he planning to do if and when he caught him?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The cop wasn't in a life or death situation till he charged at him. As for chasing after him, that's what cops do. They run and catch the bad guys. If the bad guys decide they want to hurt you, they get shot. I don't think it should be as controversial as it is. Brown had a choice in this. His poor decisions cost him his life.

Wilson fired his gun during the initial struggle at the car, and he fired it 50 yards away from the car because he felt it was life or death... So what the hell was he planning to do if he caught up to Brown?

[RainMaker]

He said he was trying to stall him until backup arrived. Perhaps he was hoping Brown would stop and get down on the ground like most people do when confronted at gunpoint with a weapon? Cops hold suspects at gunpoint until backup arrives all the time.

[RainMaker]

Also, what is it you want cops to do in these situations? Just let the biggest guys do whatever the fuck they want? "Welp, this guy is really big so lets just give him a pass". No matter what happened, an officer was going to have to apprehend him and was going to be put in a position where a violent conflict could occur.

This concept of everyone else in the world having to cater and take unnecessary risks to a violent criminal is bizarre to me.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

This should be frightening to any citizen, black or white.

Doesn't frighten me at all. I don't attack police and if I am ever in a situation where a police officer tells me to to do something, whether I feel I am wrong or not, I'll do it and sort it out later.

And yes, I realize that is easy for my white upper middle class ass to say.

[RainMaker]

This wouldn't even be a story if it wasn't for a bunch of race-hustling con artists who paraded around losers on national TV with fabricated stories about what took place.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Anyone rioting is a criminal, but 95% of them are sheep who get caught up in the mob mentality and wouldn't be doing shit unless they saw others getting away with it next to them. But once those people start and aren't moved on it hits a tipping point and its either move in with violence or let everything peter out on its own... And we saw option #2 last night.

I think this is generally the case, however I do not think this was the case last night.

I think a large group of people showed up for the specific reason of causing havoc/ looting. That is why so many had masks on. Many also had bricks,and the person with lighter fluid who set the cop car on fire. They came prepared to destroy that town and couldn't care less about the cause.

[BillJasper]

Protests in Cincinnati tonight.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Protests in Cincinnati tonight.

Which Mike Brown are they protesting about?

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Which Mike Brown are they protesting about?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

Protests in Cincinnati tonight.

Ferguson rally in Cincinnati shuts down I-75 - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV

pretty timid stuff, and given our recent history the police won't take any chance of things getting out of control.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Ferguson rally in Cincinnati shuts down I-75 - Cincinnati News, FOX19-WXIX TV

pretty timid stuff, and given our recent history the police won't take any chance of things getting out of control.

Agreed. Pretty sure we learned our lessons back in 2001.

[BillJasper]

This woman (Lisa Bloom) on MSNBC makes a solid point: if you use conflicting eyewitness accounts as a reason not to file charges, no one would be in prison as almost every case has conflicting accounts.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

This woman (Lisa Bloom) on MSNBC makes a solid point: if you use conflicting eyewitness accounts as a reason not to file charges, no one would be in prison as almost every case has conflicting accounts.

How about this reality that seems to escape some folks: some eyewitnesses have more credibility than others.

Discernment of those is part & parcel of grand juries & juries alike.

[BillJasper]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

How about this reality that seems to escape some folks: some eyewitnesses have more credibility than others.

Discernment of those is part & parcel of grand juries & juries alike.

So every witness that agreed with Wilson's account have more credibility than those that disagreed with it?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

So every witness that agreed with Wilson's account have more credibility than those that disagreed with it?

Considering their statements were backed up with forensic evidence I would say yes.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by BillJasper

So every witness that agreed with Wilson's account have more credibility than those that disagreed with it?

I wasn't in the grand jury room so I can't swear to how the witnesses came across but that certainly seems like a reasonable assumption given the outcome.

[RainMaker]

When a witness says Brown was shot in the back and the medical examiner says no bullets went through his back, you can assume that witness is lying or has a fuzzy recollection.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He said he was trying to stall him until backup arrived. Perhaps he was hoping Brown would stop and get down on the ground like most people do when confronted at gunpoint with a weapon? Cops hold suspects at gunpoint until backup arrives all the time.

A suspect who has already attacked you "unprovoked" is going to surrender to you alone? Unless there is an indication that Brown is an imminent threat to other people, yeah, I would prefer the cop to wait for backup.

Police regularly use extra force and SWAT teams to take down suspects if they believe them to be armed. I don't think it's unreasonable a cop would want, and should have, a partner or more with them if they're trying to arrest a violent criminal who is larger and (probably) stronger.

[Dutch]

Darren Wilson says he's sorry but conscience is clear - CNN.com

Wilson's version, you can watch it up top....looks like a regular old cop to me, not one ready to take on two dudes at the same time (which we simply can't ignore that Brown's accomplice in the robbery was right there too).

"I just know there was a barrage of swinging and grabbing and pulling for about 10 seconds," Wilson told ABC. "I reached out my window with my right hand to grab on to his forearm."

Wilson said he wanted to move Brown away.

"I just felt the immense power that he had. And then the way I've described it is, it was like a 5-year-old holding onto Hulk Hogan. That's just how big this man was," Wilson said. "He was very large, very powerful man."

Wilson is 6-foot-4 and 210 pounds; Brown was the same height and weighed nearly 300 pounds.

Brown unleashed another punch and struck the officer in his face, Wilson said.

"How do I survive," Wilson recalled thinking. "I didn't know if I'd be able to survive another hit like that."

Wilson reached for his gun and told Brown to back off or he would shoot, the officer said.

"You're too much of a (bleeped) to shoot me," Wilson claimed Brown told him before grabbing the top of the officer's gun.

Wilson tried to squeeze off two shots but the gun jammed twice.

Brown, he said, tried to reach the trigger guard to shot Wilson. Wilson got a shot off on his third attempt, he said.

"He gets even angrier," Wilson said. "His aggression, his face, the intensity just increases. He comes back in at me again."

There was another shot, Wilson told ABC. The officer gets out of his car and goes after Brown, who turns around from 30 to 40 feet away.

Wilson said Brown reached into his waistband with one hand and made a fist with the other.

"He starts charging me," Wilson said in the interview. "My initial thought was, is there a weapon in there."

Wilson said Brown never had his hands up as if to surrender.

Brown charged at Wilson, the officer said.

"I decide to shoot," he said "I fired a series of shots and paused. I noticed at least one of them hit him. I don't know where. I saw his body kind of flinch a little."

Wilson said he paused again and commanded Brown to stop.

Brown kept coming. Wilson said he fired again and Brown flinched as if hit.

With Brown just 15 feet away, Wilson said, he backpedaled. Brown got closer and positioned himself to tackle the officer, according to Wilson, who then shot the teenager in the top of he head.

Wilson told ABC that he was sorry for the loss of life but that he was simply doing his job and following his training.

[Dutch]

I'm confused on the truth. (EDIT: heh, I guess that was an overstatement!) Was Brown 15 feet away from Wilson when he was shot dead or was he 50 yards away as others in the thread have stated?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Such fun watching the random vandals roam the streets of Atlanta tonight.

You wonder why nobody with a brain gives flying fuck when this shit happens?
Watch the news.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

A suspect who has already attacked you "unprovoked" is going to surrender to you alone? Unless there is an indication that Brown is an imminent threat to other people, yeah, I would prefer the cop to wait for backup.

Police regularly use extra force and SWAT teams to take down suspects if they believe them to be armed. I don't think it's unreasonable a cop would want, and should have, a partner or more with them if they're trying to arrest a violent criminal who is larger and (probably) stronger.

It isn't the police's job to cater to the criminals. It is there job to stop them.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I'm confused on the truth. (EDIT: heh, I guess that was an overstatement!) Was Brown 15 feet away from Wilson when he was shot dead or was he 50 yards away as others in the thread have stated?

He was 15 feet away from Wilson and 50 yards from the police car where the initial confrontation occurred.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

He was 15 feet away from Wilson and 50 yards from the police car where the initial confrontation occurred.

Ahhh, okay, that makes sense.

[NobodyHere]

I'm a little confused about something,

Did Wilson stop Brown initially because he was Jaywalking or was it because Wilson thought he was the robbery suspect?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It isn't the police's job to cater to the criminals. It is there job to stop them.

No, it's their job to make the community safe(r).

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

No, it's their job to make the community safe(r).

Isn't stopping criminals a method of making the community safer?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

I'm a little confused about something,

Did Wilson stop Brown initially because he was Jaywalking or was it because Wilson thought he was the robbery suspect?

Wilson did not know about the robbery when he stopped Brown.