Werewolf LXXII: Chess (Checkmate!)

[st.cronin]

Also, Fog of War helps Black at this point, so White needs to openly share board information, in order to coordinate the checkmate.

Here's mine:

8
7
6
5
4      BP
3 
2         (C)   (N)
1               (R)
  A  B  C  D  E  F  G  H

(R) = Render, White Bishop
(N) = ntndeacon, White King
(C) = me, White Bishop
BP = Black Pawn

[The Jackal]

Interesting idea cronin, it does make sense.. but how do we know how many wolves are left? I know people have said it'd make sense for Pass to balance two wolves on each side (now that we know at least two black pieces were wolves), but that'd make 4 wolves out of 20 players, and that's kind of a big disadvantage for the wolves, even with the possibility of players being removed through chess moves.

I'll consider it, but right now I like the idea of getting rid of a wolf. We'd still be in very strong position to eliminate black.

[st.cronin]

We don't know how many wolves are left, Jackal, but even if we assume that all remaining wolves are WHITE, it still makes no sense to vote for somebody on the white team. If you want to think that there may be another wolf on the black side, all the more reason to vote black.

Black went down 2 pieces last deadline. The wolves can't counter our overwhelming board advantage, no matter which side they're on, and we don't care if they're still around when the game is over - we want to mate Neon.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Interesting idea cronin, it does make sense.. but how do we know how many wolves are left? I know people have said it'd make sense for Pass to balance two wolves on each side (now that we know at least two black pieces were wolves), but that'd make 4 wolves out of 20 players, and that's kind of a big disadvantage for the wolves, even with the possibility of players being removed through chess moves.

I'll consider it, but right now I like the idea of getting rid of a wolf. We'd still be in very strong position to eliminate black.

This is wrong - if we vote off Render, and then they night kill you, black is back in the game.

[st.cronin]

dola, what I mean is, we need to use the vote to keep our board advantage. The wolves have handed us this game - we just need to press our advantage.

[The Jackal]

Not if a rook protects me - but I have an option c.

We control the vote, pretty much, there's enough of us with between 1-4 votes that we could tie the vote, knocking off a wolf and a black piece. Seem doable?

[mccollins]

I'll unvote to consider things over the weekend:
Unvote RendeR

However, if we don't finish getting the wolves then we run the risk of them nightkilling our pieces prepared to take the black King and preventing us from finishing that task. Especially if we start sharing board information publicly.

I need to hear more from the white Rooks.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

This is wrong - if we vote off Render, and then they night kill you, black is back in the game.

With a rook and 4 pawns? I dunno about that. If nothing else, I'd rather vote off the 4 pawns before the rook.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Not if a rook protects me - but I have an option c.

We control the vote, pretty much, there's enough of us with between 1-4 votes that we could tie the vote, knocking off a wolf and a black piece. Seem doable?

No, we don't want to mess with that, it gives black and the wolves a chance to mess with the vote.

Worst case scenario for white: We lynch the black rook tonight, one of the white rooks is night killed. We lynch the black pawns tomorrow, the other white rook is night killed. The game will then be:

White - 2 Bishops, Knight, 6 Pawns, King
Black - King

Even if both you and Render are wolves, we still will be able to turn that into a mate - and based on board movement done in the open, it should be crystal clear who on the white team is playing to WIN, and who is working for the wolves.

[st.cronin]

Trying to vote off a white wolf is just ASKING for trouble. Suppose The Jackal is the wolf, and Render is a villager? Then we are going to spend the next two days voting off white pieces, making the board neutral again. EVEN IF RENDER IS A WOLF, voting him off leaves a powerful Black presence on the board, and pisses away our advantage.

[mccollins]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

We lynch the black rook tonight, one of the white rooks is night killed. We lynch the black pawns tomorrow, the other white rook is night killed.

I still think one of the white rooks could be a wolf.

I think the wolves can screw with the chess game and hurt us just as bad as with nightkills. And how many turns will it take to get the black king? Every additional turn is an extra night kill unless the rooks are good and coordinated at bodyguarding (they weren't last night!).

With a villager (Qwik) scanning you as a villager, you're basically cleared Cronin, but I'm not bought into this plan yet.

[mccollins]

I've got to leave - help me here - what was the reason we thought Jackal was good?

[st.cronin]

Let me make it as clear as possible. This is the ABSOLUTE WORST CASE if we follow my plan.

There are three black pieces left. Today we lynch the Rook. One of the White rooks is night killed. We will still have complete coordination of our movements, and tomorrow our pieces - 1 king, 1 rook, 2 bishops, 6 pawns, 1 knight - will be arrayed against 4 pawns and 1 king. Tomorrow we lynch the pawns. Our other rook is night-killed. We will have, at that point, 1 king, 2 bishops, 6 pawns and 1 knight arrayed against a king. Its true that some of those pieces will be controlled by wolves, but they won't be able to board-kill us, they'll just be able to not follow whatever plan we put together.

Seriously, only a white wolf would NOT want to follow this plan.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by mccollins

I've got to leave - help me here - what was the reason we thought Jackal was good?

There is no reason to think Jackal is good. That's why we can't vote for anybody on the white team.

[st.cronin]

Actually, now that I think about it, we should vote off the black pawns today, to remove the additional voting power.

UNVOTE OLIEGIRL
VOTE SONIC YOUTH

[st.cronin]

Any known white player who doesn't vote for Sonic Youth, I will assume is a wolf. Also all white players, please share your board info - we can coordinate our movements against black that way.

[The Jackal]

I see where cronin is going with this, and I'll seriously consider voting for Sonic, but I'm not convinced we shouldn't take out a wolf, even if it is a white piece.

[oliegirl]

Hey guys, I'm home...had to take my son back to the dr, he started spiking a high fever and I couldn't get it down - they sent us to the local Childrens Hospital Immediate Care and gave him an IV of antibiotics and fluids and now he is better...but I've been gone for the last 6 hours. I didn't get my night action in, so I stayed where I was and didn't guard anyone...I'm the black rook, I was PM partner with Hoopsguy. I'm sorry I didn't get my order in to block Qwik, I was going to but then had to leave in a rush and quite honestly, just forgot. Anyway, I'm sorry...I'll be around over the weekend, though I'm sure it will be quiet so I can answer any questions you have.

[PurdueBrad]

St. Cronin, I'm torn and am going back and forth. Here is what I will do:

vote Sonic Youth

That makes more sense in terms of controlling the board (4 pieces off) and heavy voting power against white. Also, you're right, basically anybody that doesn't vote this way will probably get themselves lynched the next night as a wolf.

St. Cronin, as for locations, as the pawn, black can basically see me so I guess there isn't much harm for me since they know I'm a pawn anyway. I'm at A6, E6 and I have picked up my super, deluxe extra-special pawnny power (and so has my partner but he didn't use it and I forgot to remind him to use it). The black rook is at C8 and there is a black pawn at D6 still. I know where some white pawns are but don't want to out their locations or my partner's id w/o consent.

[Sonic Youth]

Damn, now we have no reason to hide roles. Damn CR and his not taking my suggestion and then using it earlier in the game. AH well.

So, who to vote for? This makes things tricky.

To those who don't think white will be troubled by a wolf, then St.Cronin hasn't thought it through all the way through, as easily it makes sense for either a white rook or the pawns will be wolf killed tonight. If they aren't wolves to begin with. Voting black won't stop that.

Vote RendeR.

[Sonic Youth]

Damn.

Vote RendeR.

[Sonic Youth]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I know where some white pawns are but don't want to out their locations or my partner's id w/o consent.

It doesn't matter, as only two of his can move, White Pawns are in D5, F6, and H5. At least I can see. I'd imagine that there is one in B5 or B6 too. What matters is that a few of them are close to getting to the end. Hence I'd be expecting wolf activity with them tonight. I can also imagine that people will now make use of me using all these wolf references. Remember night one everyone? Why would I do that? Kwhit would have been right with his trust if he had of survived. I was actually expecting it to be one of us that night.

[Sonic Youth]

Actually,

Unvote RendeR.
Vote St.Cronin.

[Sonic Youth]

So how many wolves are left in this game? I'd say they are all on white. Now here's the thing, Wolves only need to still be alive with the Kings to win. That leaves, what? 2 nights to vote off black? Yes? In that time 4 villager players will go I'd imagine. Or at least 3 of them That leaves 4 players. One night, and depending on who's left will mean they effectively can control the vote. You want to vote for me? Be careful about who you vote for tonight. A vote for me will be exactly what the wolves will want.

[The Jackal]

Sonic, if you're going to vote for a white piece (obviously), you might as well vote for the wolf, because I don't think anyone on white is going to vote for cronin.

[Sonic Youth]

And that is RendeR?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

And that is RendeR?

Well I mean he's the only confirmed wolf. Cronin could be a wolf too, I guess. I'm not trying to help black by voting off a wolf.. but I guess it's going to look like that if most of white follows cronin's plan.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

So how many wolves are left in this game? I'd say they are all on white.

BTW I agree with this, I think it's most likely the wolves left are white. I see what cronin is trying to do, make the wolves irrelevant by continuing to vote off black pieces since we have the piece advantage, and eventually checkmate Neon, but the wolves haven't been over-present and I can't shake the feeling that they are controlling things here. I still really don't think cronin is a wolf, especially with Qwik's clear, which is why I'm pretty willing to follow his plan, I just want to make sure it's not misguided.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I see where cronin is going with this, and I'll seriously consider voting for Sonic, but I'm not convinced we shouldn't take out a wolf, even if it is a white piece.

I'm convinced You are a wolf, because I know I'm not one. 2 knights being wolves? Makes a lot of sense from a game balance point of view, there would only be 2 GOOD seers in that case, as I assume the wolf-knights can't actually scan (what would be the purpose?) Is there anything in the rules about a FOOL role? Otherwise we've pegged wolf three. Jackal is a wolf, I guarentee it.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Sonic Youth

Damn, now we have no reason to hide roles. Damn CR and his not taking my suggestion and then using it earlier in the game. AH well.

So, who to vote for? This makes things tricky.

To those who don't think white will be troubled by a wolf, then St.Cronin hasn't thought it through all the way through, as easily it makes sense for either a white rook or the pawns will be wolf killed tonight. If they aren't wolves to begin with. Voting black won't stop that.

Vote RendeR.

Huh? What suggestion?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I'm convinced You are a wolf, because I know I'm not one. 2 knights being wolves? Makes a lot of sense from a game balance point of view, there would only be 2 GOOD seers in that case, as I assume the wolf-knights can't actually scan (what would be the purpose?) Is there anything in the rules about a FOOL role? Otherwise we've pegged wolf three. Jackal is a wolf, I guarentee it.

At least a wolf finally made a defense. I realize two knight wolves make sense in sense of balance purposes, but giving the wolves 2 out of the 4 pieces that can identify them is kind of silly. And I didn't see anything about a fool role. I have no reason to think I'm a fool..

[The Jackal]

PS RendeR it seems like cronin doesn't want to lynch you anyways, and some of white is already willing to follow him, so I don't think you have much to worry about.

[The Jackal]

PSS no one has answered my query about game times, AND the flyers lost.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Huh? What suggestion?

who knows what he was talking about, darn aussies

talking to myself is sad

[Neon_Chaos]

Vote st.cronin

[st.cronin]

Even Black recognizes the wisdom of my plan, else why would they be trying to vote me off?

[ntndeacon]

Vote Sonic Youth

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

At least a wolf finally made a defense. I realize two knight wolves make sense in sense of balance purposes, but giving the wolves 2 out of the 4 pieces that can identify them is kind of silly. And I didn't see anything about a fool role. I have no reason to think I'm a fool..

I understand I have nothing to clear me, and its your word vs mine, but I am not a wolf. I have no reason as yet to believe cronin is either, we've shared information freely between us and I thought someone cleared Cronin already but I could be mistaken. There are only two reasons for a false claim of me being a wolf: A: You are a wolf B: You are a Fool role and gets everything backwards.

[RendeR]

I can't seem to post with any line breaks in my text and the editors are not working for me either. Anyone ever had this happen before?

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I can't seem to post with any line breaks in my text and the editors are not working for me either. Anyone ever had this happen before?

I've had that happen in quick reply before

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I understand I have nothing to clear me, and its your word vs mine, but I am not a wolf. I have no reason as yet to believe cronin is either, we've shared information freely between us and I thought someone cleared Cronin already but I could be mistaken. There are only two reasons for a false claim of me being a wolf: A: You are a wolf B: You are a Fool role and gets everything backwards.

Well I'm not a wolf either, I guess I could be a fool. And the black pieces aren't even voting for you.. I guess I'll probably switch to SY eventually.

[mccollins]

According to the rules, there is no fool in the game.

At least one of RendeR or Jackal is a lying wolf.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by mccollins

According to the rules, there is no fool in the game.

At least one of RendeR or Jackal is a lying wolf.

I agree, but it doesn't matter. Whichever one isn't a wolf isn't the LAST wolf, and they can't execute more than one night kill.

[The Jackal]

Alright cronin, let's give your plan a shot.

unvote RendeR

vote SY

[st.cronin]

Only one person (PurdueBrad, I think) has shared board info, which we'll need to do to mate Neon. Here's with the update:

8       BR
7
6 WP       BP WP
5 
4       BP
3  
2          (C)   (N)
1                (R)
   A  B  C  D  E  F  G  H

[Sonic Youth]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Even Black recognizes the wisdom of my plan, else why would they be trying to vote me off?

Wisdom? It's only half there. I think your gifting the wolves, which is fine by me if you want white to lose. If I'm voted off, you'll see a white player night killed. If you then vote another black player off, there goes another white player. How many wolves to white players minus the kings will that leave? I see your wisdom as half baked. Still, voted me off and you'll see. Even if you vote me off and go for a wolf next time, your not leaving much chance to win for white.

[The Jackal]

Here I'll present some calculations in both response to what SY said and for white to think about. Right now we have 11 players left, 3 black and 8 white. Let's subtract two straight black lynches and two white night kills. Then it's one black king vs one white king and five white pieces. Say out of those five pieces, two are wolves. Neon would need to avoid capture for 3 extra turns after all his other pieces have been eliminated, and with the likely possibility of one or more of our pawns reaching the other side and changing into queens, I think this game might be in the bag.

Plus we've always got the safety of voting off the wolf (I have no reason to think I'm a fool, really) instead of voting no lynch once the black pieces are gone, if we're worried the wolves have any chance left. I think you're in trouble, SY.

[The Jackal]

BTW I can see RendeR, NTN, and one of our rooks.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by RendeR

I can't seem to post with any line breaks in my text and the editors are not working for me either. Anyone ever had this happen before?

Do you use firefox with no-script?

I've noticed recently all kinds of things breaking for me on the forum with no-script, where it did not use to. If I allow the board to run scripts, all of those things work as they used to prior to whatever changed on the board recently. What you describe are some of the issues I ran into recently. (I've run no-script for a while, it only recently started causing issues like this for me)

If the answer is yes, just temporarily allowe gamespy to run scripts.

[Narcizo]

Well this is all very interesting. Let's see. We know Qwik is a villager so.... Everyone seems agreed that there are two white wolves left. Who's available? Render, Jackal, st.cronin, Heinz, PurdueBrad, McCollins and myself.

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

He [Anxiety] wanted to target clap and narc and purduebrad...

Phew! That's PB and, most importantly, me in the clear. Anxiety isn't going to target a wolf to save a villager.

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

St. Cronin is not a wolf.

There's cronin out of the picture as well.

So who do we have left? Render, Jackal, Heinz and McCollins. We know Jackal or Render is a wolf so that leaves Heinz and McCollins as the wolves left. Day one voting points very, very strongly in favour of Heinz being the wolf. Would McCollins really leave 4 votes on a fellow wolf with the possibility that one of the other people with a vote on the wolf is a pawn? I find it very, very hard to believe. Meanwhile Heinz had what has to be classified as a high-suspect late vote switch to KWhit. (of course, so did I as I pointed out at the time).

So there we have our wolves. Heinz and Jackal/Render.