The official 2008 MLB thread

[VPI97]

Sounds like the Reds will get so-so prospect SP Lance Broadway + another minor leaguer for Griff. Decent haul for him at this point in his career. The bigger gain the Reds get from the trade is freeing up the cash to resign Dunn.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

First Randy Wolf, now LaTroy Hawkins?!? What the hell are you doing, Wade?

Shawn Chacon had the right idea.

[molson]

Dissapointing for Reds fans but great for Griffey fans - and he has a chance to be in the playoffs again.

[stevew]

Man. There must be 50 guys on Fofc's top ten hitter list by now. Or maybe Manny just bumped Biggio to 11.

[Celeval]

Argh. I'd love to see Griffey get his ring, but the White Sox? Bah.

[molson]

Believe it or not, Curt Schilling has a strong opinion about the Manny stuff:

Schilling: Keeping Manny could be a problem - Extra Bases - Red Sox blog

Does he think it's time for Manny to go?

"Would I be the only guy in the New England area that said no if I did?" Schilling replied to the question. "I think I'm probably with the consensus. It's very obvious from anything you see or hear he doesn't want to be here. And anytime that there's a piece of the equation you have a problem, and then not trading and leaving him here is a problem because you don't know what you're going to get."

Is Manny quirky or a distraction?

“..I’ve always wondered how we came to be OK with ‘… he’s just not gonna play hard today,’ and that was OK. We’ve come a long way, especially in this city as devoted and as much as the Red Sox mean to people, the fact that you could have a Dustin Pedroia, a Jason Varitek, someone who would bleed and literally play his nine breaths to make an out or get a hit or win a game, and have somebody at the other end of the spectrum from a committed standpoint, you know these players love the uniform, love the fans, and believe in Red Sox and what it means to be a part of this and then you have guys who really don’t give a [expletive].”

[korme]

Don't know much about the two players we got, except that one guy was a rookie last year and hasn't made it back to the show, and the pitcher has done ok.

Too bad we couldn't unload Affeldt for anything.

I'm actually ok with trading Griffey, though he's my only current Reds jersey. Boo on that front. I'm also glad we didn't get Swisher in return as that may have signaled the end of the Dunn Era. I hope to hell we re-sign Dunn now, with Griff's contract off the books it should happen.

Also, this means Dunn - Hairston - Bruce should play everyday, which I like, for this season.

What do you do if you are the Reds with Hairston at the end of the year though? He's 32, hitting about 80 points above his career ave (.350), but dammit if I don't love him this season.

Also, take away Griffey's name and we just unloaded 10 mil from the books by getting rid of a .245 15 HR guy? Deal.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by korme

Don't know much about the two players we got, except that one guy was a rookie last year and hasn't made it back to the show, and the pitcher has done ok.

Both are depth type players at best. Richar had one really good year at high-A in the Arizona system back in 2005 but hasn't show much since. He's a career .288 hitter in the minors and a career .230 hitter in one season, last season, with the White Sox.

Masset is also 25 and joins his third organization in the last three years. Masset began his career as a starter in the Texas system but was moved to the bullpen later on and the White Sox have used him almost exclusively as a reliever (5.75 career ERA in that role) the last two years. The good news is Masset has pretty good career numbers against the National League, as he has a 3.80 ERA in 21 1/3 innings against senior circuit clubs.

[larrymcg421]

When did Reds fans come around on Dunn? I thought they hated him.

[korme]

It's popular to pick on Dunn in Cincinnati, but the bottom line is he's still our top hitter, no one in MLB has more HRs or BB in the past 5 years than the Big Donkey. His career high in HR is 46 and he's probably going to eclipse that this year, his current OPS+ of 143 is just under his career best of 146 in 2004.

[JPhillips]

The problem with the Griffey trade is that Cincy should have gotten either a B level prospect or salary relief, but got neither. I'll almost guarantee neither of these guys will be on the 40 man in two years and we still have to pay half of Griffey's salary and buyout.

I would have preferred to let him go in the offseason and take the draft pick compensation.

[korme]

I can't believe the ChiSox are planning on playing him in CF.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Uh, no.

I always think people will get used to the fact I use hyperbole and exaggeration as a literary device in conversation

Is top 25 better? He's 25th all-time in adjusted OPS+ (2.5 active players ahead of him - Pujols, Frank Thomas and a 3rd we'll get to in a minute.) And while he's in decline now, they wanted to release him before 2004 and trade him either 2004 or 2005 trade deadline, when he came out to pinch-hit and drove in the winning runs.

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Running Manny out of town? Anyone of that opinion has a similar sense of reality that Manny does.

Originally Posted by molson

"Would I be the only guy in the New England area that said no if I did?" Schilling replied to the question. "I think I'm probably with the consensus. It's very obvious from anything you see or hear he doesn't want to be here. And anytime that there's a piece of the equation you have a problem, and then not trading and leaving him here is a problem because you don't know what you're going to get."

Is Manny quirky or a distraction?

“..I’ve always wondered how we came to be OK with ‘… he’s just not gonna play hard today,’ and that was OK. We’ve come a long way, especially in this city as devoted and as much as the Red Sox mean to people, the fact that you could have a Dustin Pedroia, a Jason Varitek, someone who would bleed and literally play his nine breaths to make an out or get a hit or win a game, and have somebody at the other end of the spectrum from a committed standpoint, you know these players love the uniform, love the fans, and believe in Red Sox and what it means to be a part of this and then you have guys who really don’t give a [expletive].”

This is the type of mouth-breathing idiot I'm talking about. I love Dustin Pedroia, because he's what fans think David Eckstein is - a small balding unathletic guy OPS'ing .810+, but you really want to claim you'd rather see him or Jason Varitek in uniform than Manny? Dustin Pedroia has absolutely been on fire the last month+, and in June/July his OPS is about .920 - ie lower than Manny on the season. Jason Varitek had an OPS of .380 in June. We have members of the board that could do better than that.

People saying Manny isn't committed or isn't trying - post-ASB he's 13/37 with 6 XBH and an 8/4 BB/K for a .351/.467/.622 line (2 games missed). Clearly he is trying (every thing I've seen says he spends more time in the batting cage than anyone on the team), and even if he isn't he's still our best hitter. I will take the biggest asshole in the world if he's putting up numbers like that instead of some guy who's nice and gives 110%. Speaking of which, if you really want to trade Manny and replace him, an actual Top 10 hitter of all-time is sitting there for free. Trade Manny for prospects like Stanton and sign Bonds.

Or you could meet Florida's asking price of paying Manny's contract for the rest of the year, plus $2 million, plus prospects, plus Manny (and the 2 #1's after the year) for Jeremy Hermida, then swing Hermida and more prospects to Pittsburgh for Jason Bay. Throw in Jed Lowrie for Jack Wilson too like some reports have it, because there's another white boy OPS'ing <.700 for his career who plays the game the right way and tries hard. Thank god it appears to be dead.

(The Marlins are up there with the Twins for "small-market" teams taking advantage of suckers. They get close to $50 million in revenue sharing checks alone, spend $20 million on payroll and still try to get more cash. They turn the biggest profits in MLB and people baby them about how they can't spend like other teams.)

[rkmsuf]

you don't watch much baseball do you?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

When did Reds fans come around on Dunn? I thought they hated him.

If by fans you mean their manager, you'd be right. The same manager that loves bunting and keeping Jay Bruce in AAA until late May. Oh, and GM's like Ricciardi in Toronto.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

you don't watch much baseball do you?

Who, me? I watch the Red Sox most nights and the occasional national game.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Who, me? I watch the Red Sox most nights and the occasional national game.

so why would you want them to run manny out there on friday?

[korme]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

If by fans you mean their manager, you'd be right. The same manager that loves bunting and keeping Jay Bruce in AAA until late May. Oh, and GM's like Ricciardi in Toronto.

Dusty is an assclown, but you can't blame the Bruce thing solely on him. He's not the only one responsible for the call-ups.

[stevew]

They weren't likely to get pick compensation for griffey cause that would have required them to offer arbitration. Essentially committing them to pay him no less than 90 percent of his 2008 salary. Its not likely that junior gets any huge offers this offseason. Certainly not comparable to his current salary

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

People saying Manny isn't committed or isn't trying - post-ASB he's 13/37 with 6 XBH and an 8/4 BB/K for a .351/.467/.622 line (2 games missed). Clearly he is trying (every thing I've seen says he spends more time in the batting cage than anyone on the team), and even if he isn't he's still our best hitter. I will take the biggest asshole in the world if he's putting up numbers like that instead of some guy who's nice and gives 110%. Speaking of which, if you really want to trade Manny and replace him, an actual Top 10 hitter of all-time is sitting there for free. Trade Manny for prospects like Stanton and sign Bonds.

Manny would be fine, were he the DH. He's not. And he tries when he wants to, and is beginning to show a history of ducking pitchers he does not hit well against. That was Schilling's point, and it's a great quote in OOTP: hustle goes a long way in this game.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Manny would be fine, were he the DH. He's not. And he tries when he wants to, and is beginning to show a history of ducking pitchers he does not hit well against. That was Schilling's point, and it's a great quote in OOTP: hustle goes a long way in this game.

don't forget faking injuries, assaulting clubhouse employees and general asshattery to go with unrealistic contract demands and the maturity of a three year old.

other than that he's great. team is really rallying to his defense as evidence of their great effort last night.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

The problem with the Griffey trade is that Cincy should have gotten either a B level prospect or salary relief, but got neither. I'll almost guarantee neither of these guys will be on the 40 man in two years and we still have to pay half of Griffey's salary and buyout.

I would have preferred to let him go in the offseason and take the draft pick compensation.

And pay 4 million for his buyout instead of 2? Doesn't sound like a lot but 2 million is 2 million. Same with his salary the rest of the year.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by rowech

And pay 4 million for his buyout instead of 2? Doesn't sound like a lot but 2 million is 2 million. Same with his salary the rest of the year.

Bingo.

We need to save as much money now if we want to keep Dunn.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Bingo.

We need to save as much money now if we want to keep Dunn.

Let him go too. Start over and get some decent young corner OFers who can hit for a little power but can spray the ball all over the place. Most importantly....they don't strikeout all the time!

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I will take the biggest asshole in the world if he's putting up numbers like that instead of some guy who's nice and gives 110%. .)

Schilling wasn't saying that Manny is a less valuable player than the nice guy.

He's just saying that when you have a bunch of guys on the team who are always hustling, etc, someone like Manny refusing to run out ground balls really stands out and is disruptive to the clubhouse. I'll take Schilling at his word there because he's actually on the team.

Schillling wants him gone, and is saying so publically. No teammates have come to his defense, and several others have spoken out against him in the past.

Maybe all that's not worth DFAing him, but it's certainly worth moving him for less value if you can do it.

[korme]

Originally Posted by rowech

Let him go too. Start over and get some decent young corner OFers who can hit for a little power but can spray the ball all over the place. Most importantly....they don't strikeout all the time!

Letting Dunn walk would be one of the most moronic things management could do, and I've got more faith in the Jocketty/Castellini train than that. You don't let a career OPS+ of 131 just... walk.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by korme

Dusty is an assclown, but you can't blame the Bruce thing solely on him. He's not the only one responsible for the call-ups.

Point taken, but didn't he say things in spring training about how he wanted to put Corey Patterson out there instead?

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

so why would you want them to run manny out there on friday?

Because the team has a better chance to win with him playing? Pretty simple. http://www.fangraphs.com/winss.aspx?team=Red%20Sox Manny has 3.94 WPA. The Red Sox as a team have 2.03 WPA batting. If you want Coco/Jacoby in LF/CF, fine. If you think the team has a better chance to win I don't know what to say.

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

don't forget faking injuries, assaulting clubhouse employees and general asshattery to go with unrealistic contract demands and the maturity of a three year old.

other than that he's great. team is really rallying to his defense as evidence of their great effort last night.

I don't get your point here. Are you saying the other players regularly try as hard as they can, but didn't last night out of protest? Or are you saying they have an extra amount of effort they could be putting in each night but choose not to unless it's an important occasion? Neither of those make any sense.

If you want to talk about talented, mercurial outfieldiers JD Drew's sitting over there in RF. Well, actually he's played 7 games less than Manny, and historically plays fewer games than Manny.

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Manny would be fine, were he the DH. He's not. And he tries when he wants to, and is beginning to show a history of ducking pitchers he does not hit well against. That was Schilling's point, and it's a great quote in OOTP: hustle goes a long way in this game.

Yes, it does but talent>hustle. All the hustle in the world will never make Dustin Pedroia or Jason Varitek as good a hitter as Manny Ramirez is. If you want to complain about his defense, why not DH Manny, play Ortiz at 1B and Youkilis in LF? Because they would be worse defensively. Yet somehow Manny gets the blame for being a bad defender while Ortiz gets a pass.

[BishopMVP]

Bay to TB for Reid Brignac and Jeff Niemann nearly official

Ramirez speculation is on to LA now... Sox want Kemp, Dodgers offering Ethier, who is Brandon Moss only older.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by rowech

Let him go too. Start over and get some decent young corner OFers who can hit for a little power but can spray the ball all over the place. Most importantly....they don't strikeout all the time!

Originally Posted by from a post on redreporter.com

Rosenthal also has an interesting stat on Dunn—according to STATS LLC, he’s one of only 10 hitters since 1947 with a career OBP above .380 and slugging percentage above .520 through his age 28 season. The others? Albert Pujols, Vladimir Guerrero, Alex Rodriguez, Barry Bonds, Frank Robinson, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Mathews, Willie Mays and Duke Snider. Not bad company.
Hey, the Reds got rid of Frank Robinson, so why not Dunn? Maybe Milt Pappas is available.
Yeah, why would you want a guy with more home runs and walks than anyone else in the last five years?

Dunn is better than anyone else we're going to get.

[rkmsuf]

I can't even believe your line of thinking based on what we've witnessed recently.

I mean I guess he's awesome based on strat o matic and if you have no problem with the goings on here then he's your man.

Pretty sad commentary really but not surprising.

[larrymcg421]

No, the idea is to get guys who are young, can hit for power, spray the ball, don't strike out, walk a lot, and hit for power. Since guys like that are a dime a dozen, I agree that you should let Dunn go.

[molson]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Yes, it does but talent>hustle.

You can't really compare the two, they both contribute to success or failure of a team.

Your logic is flawed. "Manny is better than Varitek, therefore talent is better than hustle" It's not that simple.

If you could rank players on a scale of 1-100, purely on talent, there's some point where you'd take a harder working player who was ranked lower than a loafer. Maybe an 80 guy who hustles is better than an 90 who doesn't care, whose teamates depise him, and who begs out of games against pitchers he's not comfortable against.

[molson]

Maybe teams should start getting "serious" about these trade talks a day or two earlier. It just seems like they ran out of time on a bunch of things.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

No, the idea is to get guys who are young, can hit for power, spray the ball, don't strike out, walk a lot, and hit for power. Since guys like that are a dime a dozen, I agree that you should let Dunn go.

this post made me laugh...

I never understood the hate for Dunn. Of course you want more avaerage but the guy can change a game in one swing.

The Reds pitching is so young and talented ( assuming Dusty doesn't wreck all their arms) I can see them being a contender in the next 1-3 years. Keeping Dunn around adds veteren leadership and a big bat. Bruce is gonna continue to develop, Edwin is getting better, and Phillips is a stud( especialy on defense).

If they can add a little bullpen depth and maybe an above average hitting first baseman they can be scary.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I never understood the hate for Dunn. Of course you want more avaerage but the guy can change a game in one swing.

But he could. If all he did was choke up a bit with two strikes, he would strikeout half as much and pick up an extra 30-50 hits. What a crazy concept. That's the selfishness factor for me and that's why I can't stand him.

[Galaril]

SI is reporting Manny Ramirez has been traded to LA and a third team is involved.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

He's just saying that when you have a bunch of guys on the team who are always hustling, etc, someone like Manny refusing to run out ground balls really stands out and is disruptive to the clubhouse. I'll take Schilling at his word there because he's actually on the team.

Schillling wants him gone, and is saying so publically. No teammates have come to his defense, and several others have spoken out against him in the past.

Maybe all that's not worth DFAing him, but it's certainly worth moving him for less value if you can do it.

Schilling would know what a clubhouse disruption looks like, or someone not working in the offseason and showing up 20lbs overweight and I'm not sure he's really spending much time in the clubhouse this year (wasn't Ortiz there when on the DL but Schilling off at home?)

More seriously and ignoring the messenger, I don't get this line of argument. No one has ever given a convincing argument that "clubhouse chemistry" actually detracts from a team's performance on the field. Do guys like Varitek or Youkilis not try as hard at the plate because they had a bad day? Does Beckett or Lester not give 100% on the mound because Manny's in left? If they actually do, what does that say about them? And if they don't, then where does it hurt the teams on field performance?

I'll take an OF of Manny, Milton Bradley and JD Drew with Bonds at DH any day of the week.

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

I can't even believe your line of thinking based on what we've witnessed recently.

I mean I guess he's awesome based on strat o matic and if you have no problem with the goings on here then he's your man.

Pretty sad commentary really but not surprising.

Yeah, we've definitely never seen Manny not running out ground balls or heard about him being a clubhouse cancer before. Say in 2004 or 2007 for example. He clearly made those teams worse, and it's only my love of numbers and lack of ability to watch a game that lead me to wanting Manny on the team.

Or maybe you're in the group of fans that doesn't want someone in "their" uniform unless they're perceived to be a good guy. FWIW - Varitek is an asshole, You is a douchebag and Pedroia is the cockiest person I've ever met. What goes on outside the lines has no effect on who I cheer for on the field and vice versa.


Bay to TB might not have gone through.

[molson]

Good, screw those greedy Marlins.

Anyway, the debate over the existence of "chemistry" is an old one, and I feel the same way as I do about the existence of "clutch".

It's pretty obvious to me that both exist in my own life experiences, whether at work, or wherever, so I don't see why sports would be the one exception. Some people perform better in high-pressure situations than others, and groups that get along tend to perform better than groups with a bunch of assholes that nobody likes.

And like I said, I don't think we're really disagreeing that much - I wouldn't give Manny away for peanuts, but I certainly would trade him for less than equal value.

[Galaril]

So latest word is that jason bay is going to Boston and Manny to the Dodgers. The Pirates are getting four minor leaguers.HA-ha where for the Marlins to screw themselves (and there fans) those greedy assholes

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by rowech

But he could. If all he did was choke up a bit with two strikes, he would strikeout half as much and pick up an extra 30-50 hits. What a crazy concept. That's the selfishness factor for me and that's why I can't stand him.

I doubt your conclusion about the amount of extra hits he could get, but either way, I don't see how a guy who leads the league in walks could be considered selfish. And I certainly don't mind a guy swinging away when he's 5th all-time in At Bats per Home Run.

[Bad-example]

Manny + Kent in the same clubhouse =

[rowech]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I doubt your conclusion about the amount of extra hits he could get, but either way, I don't see how a guy who leads the league in walks could be considered selfish. And I certainly don't mind a guy swinging away when he's 5th all-time in At Bats per Home Run.

Because nobody does it anymore. The level of control you get by choking up is amazing. You sacrifice the power but you can get on base a heck of a lot more.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

Good, screw those greedy Marlins.

Anyway, the debate over the existence of "chemistry" is an old one, and I feel the same way as I do about the existence of "clutch".

It's pretty obvious to me that both exist in my own life experiences, whether at work, or wherever, so I don't see why sports would be the one exception. Some people perform better in high-pressure situations than others, and groups that get along tend to perform better than groups with a bunch of assholes that nobody likes.

I agree it matters in basketball, football, soccer, lacrosse, sports like that. I just think baseball is different because it's such an individual sport. I can remember playing 2B with a 1B I hated. We would yell at each other all the time but I can't think of a single time it negatively affected me in the field or at-bat. When I played with the same kid in pick-up basketball games it would destroy the team if we were together.

And like I said, I don't think we're really disagreeing that much - I wouldn't give Manny away for peanuts, but I certainly would trade him for less than equal value.

I think the debate is just over what "equal value" is. Clearly Manny's bat is better while his replacement would be better defensively and baserunning. The big X-factor is whether/how much chemistry issues matter - I think their effect is marginal while some are acting like they are so detrimental it's close to DFA'ing him.



Heyman at CNN/SI is reporting Moss+Hansen from Boston and Laroche and Bryan Morris from LA to PIT (Best part is his headline is right above Rosenthal: Manny Deal is Dead). Good deal for PIT if true - that's 2 cheap league-average starters and a potentially good bullpen arm. No idea about Morris.

[Vince]

Holy crap.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I agree it matters in basketball, football, soccer, lacrosse, sports like that. I just think baseball is different because it's such an individual sport. I can remember playing 2B with a 1B I hated. We would yell at each other all the time but I can't think of a single time it negatively affected me in the field or at-bat. When I played with the same kid in pick-up basketball games it would destroy the team if we were together.I think the debate is just over what "equal value" is. Clearly Manny's bat is better while his replacement would be better defensively and baserunning. The big X-factor is whether/how much chemistry issues matter - I think their effect is marginal while some are acting like they are so detrimental it's close to DFA'ing him.



Heyman at CNN/SI is reporting Moss+Hansen from Boston and Laroche and Bryan Morris from LA to PIT (Best part is his headline is right above Rosenthal: Manny Deal is Dead). Good deal for PIT if true - that's 2 cheap league-average starters and a potentially good bullpen arm. No idea about Morris.

Yeah, I wasn't that excited about Manny straight up for Bay , though I knew "A" prospect would be included. However, I had no idea that the Sox would have to cough up Moss who is a decnt backup rightfielder and Hansen who has sucked so far but was a very high draft pickk with tons of upside. We really just gave whatever we had to. I also, think that if it wasn't for the last hour interest by the Devil Rays (same division as sox) the Sox wouldn't have agreed on this deal. So I think we wanted to get rid of manny but at the end we just wanted to keep the DevilRays from getting Bay and thusa lock in the East division.

[BishopMVP]

Contrary to what many may think after my line of argument, I like the deal we got in the end, even if we pay the $7 million on Manny's deal. Jason Bay is close to equal on Manny once you factor in the extra relatively cheap year of control. Moss is a solid major league LF, but like David Murphy last year he was never going to get a chance in Boston. Hansen has the potential, but clearly needed a change of scenery. Hope for the Pirates sake his arm doesn't blow out and he locates his pitches - if he does, next year people in Boston will be bemoaning our bullpen and asking why we can't get guys like that (similar to Cla Meredith and Duchscherer among others from past years) and the Pirates can get a couple more prospects for him.

So it was basically Manny and an inconsistent 6/7 inning bullpen guy who might have developed into a setup guy. We didn't give up prospects that could have helped the club in future years.

Originally Posted by rowech

Because nobody does it anymore. The level of control you get by choking up is amazing. You sacrifice the power but you can get on base a heck of a lot more.

But Dunn getting on base just clogs up the basepaths.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by stevew

Shawn Chacon had the right idea.

lol

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by rowech

Because nobody does it anymore. The level of control you get by choking up is amazing. You sacrifice the power but you can get on base a heck of a lot more.

a guy like Dunn just clogs the bases up.

[molson]

Really a good trade for all 3 - Dodgers fans must be crapping themselves, they weren't even part of the discussion until today.

[Lathum]

The thing with a guy like Dunn is he is who he is, you can't try to re-invent him.

If you try to make him into a .300 hitter all that is going to happen is his mechanics are going to get messed up.

It doesn't make him selfish, it's just the kind of player he is.