Alright boyz, here we go!!! OOTP2006 First Impressions Thread!

[JPhillips]

Maybe it was just a one time thing, but I had a career where I was three years in and I had two guys with zero experience even though they had been with the team from the beginning. I also saw there contracts get auto resigned so that I never lost any staff.

But the real problem is the complete lack of coach/scout talent outside of the US major leagues. The same managers were just rotated around the league as people got fired because there was literally noone in the world with ratings as good as the initial major league guys.

[Marc Duffy]

Just posted an update to the changelist which you can view here http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=126132

I bolded the list of stuff that was new since yesterdays update. There are spelling mistakes in there as it's not been checked over yet (I'm literally giving it out raw from our server)

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Just posted an update to the changelist which you can view here http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=126020

I bolded the list of stuff that was new since yesterdays update. There are spelling mistakes in there as it's not been checked over yet (I'm literally giving it out raw from our server)

This link points to the 10% discount.

[Marc Duffy]

My bad, fixed.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

This link points to the 10% discount.

It's some subliminal marketing.

[Marc Duffy]

heh, if only!

[Yakyuusei no Uchuujin]

I'm here via the OOTP board. I didn't post there much because of the attitude that has been mentioned here, but for those that are curious, I was/am Reserve Clause.

I have MANY complaints about OOTP, but also about virtually every other sim I've tried. So, I'm going to take a different approach. Instead of complaining about whats gone wrong with OOTP, I'm going to go over what I want to see in a sim, any sim.

I want a game where pitch-by-pitch is more than just cosmetic. Where there's a difference between the windup and the stretch, and option when to use either, how deceptive the pitcher's motion is. How good he is at holding runners. How rattled he or any other fielder gets when a notorious base stealer is on.

I want a game where its easier to steal when the pitch you're running on is a curve or forkball in the dirt or a knuckleball. I want knuckleballs to actually cause more passed balls unless the catcher specialises in them, for that matter!

I want a game with advanced strategies. Delayed steals, delayed double steals of home, stealing home from a pickoff attempt. Hidden ball tricks. Being able to call pitches from the dugout. Being able to tell the hitter to hit behind the runner. Being able to give the sign for a bunt and which side you want it to go. The difference between push, drag, and slug bunts. Being able to *order* a Baltimore chop. Or have players that will do all that on their own! Obviously, no one is going to execute 100% of the time (or 10%, in the Cubs' case), but a good game gives you the option to at least give the sign. Hell, in the name of Germany Schaefer, I'd like the option to steal 1st from 2nd. Or in the name of King Kelly, be able to try stealing 3rd from 1st!

I want a game where things can get out of hand. Where the AI is good enough that a player may drop a bunt for the purpose of plowing into the fielding pitcher to retaliate for that pitcher drilling someone. Where bean ball wars can start, benches can empty, and suspensions handed out per the style of the era.

I want a game that is accurate. Whether its starting a fictional league to have the style of 1892, or a straight up historical replay of 1994, the style of play on the field, the style of GMing in the front offices, and the total stats at the end of the season SHOULD BE ACCURATE. If some data is missing, which may create 100 steal players in 1944 or 30 homerun hitters in 1908, then the game should be able to realistically create fictional values to mirror the era, whether based on similar seasons or extant code written just for that issue. I'm no programmer, so I don't know how this or anything else would work, but I'm sure its within the realm of possibilities. At the very least, historical replays of the deadball era should not produce pitchers with 30 save seasons!

To conclude, a good sim should be about BASEBALL. Not the population of Western Sahara or Where's Waldo rules or odd life-sim elements that don't figure directly into the sport. For armchair GMs, the game should have trade, waiver, and drafting rules accurate to any given era. For armchair managers, the game should allow for anything that could happen on the field, rare or not.
Hopefully, someday, I'll find something that fulfills these wishes. Thanks for reading.

[st.cronin]

Solid first post, I hope you stick around, and please don't EVER change your username.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Yakyuusei no Uchuujin

I'm here via the OOTP board. I didn't post there much because of the attitude that has been mentioned here, but for those that are curious, I was/am Reserve Clause.

I have MANY complaints about OOTP, but also about virtually every other sim I've tried. So, I'm going to take a different approach. Instead of complaining about whats gone wrong with OOTP, I'm going to go over what I want to see in a sim, any sim.

I want a game where pitch-by-pitch is more than just cosmetic. Where there's a difference between the windup and the stretch, and option when to use either, how deceptive the pitcher's motion is. How good he is at holding runners. How rattled he or any other fielder gets when a notorious base stealer is on.

I want a game where its easier to steal when the pitch you're running on is a curve or forkball in the dirt or a knuckleball. I want knuckleballs to actually cause more passed balls unless the catcher specialises in them, for that matter!

I want a game with advanced strategies. Delayed steals, delayed double steals of home, stealing home from a pickoff attempt. Hidden ball tricks. Being able to call pitches from the dugout. Being able to tell the hitter to hit behind the runner. Being able to give the sign for a bunt and which side you want it to go. The difference between push, drag, and slug bunts. Being able to *order* a Baltimore chop. Or have players that will do all that on their own! Obviously, no one is going to execute 100% of the time (or 10%, in the Cubs' case), but a good game gives you the option to at least give the sign. Hell, in the name of Germany Schaefer, I'd like the option to steal 1st from 2nd. Or in the name of King Kelly, be able to try stealing 3rd from 1st!

I want a game where things can get out of hand. Where the AI is good enough that a player may drop a bunt for the purpose of plowing into the fielding pitcher to retaliate for that pitcher drilling someone. Where bean ball wars can start, benches can empty, and suspensions handed out per the style of the era.

I want a game that is accurate. Whether its starting a fictional league to have the style of 1892, or a straight up historical replay of 1994, the style of play on the field, the style of GMing in the front offices, and the total stats at the end of the season SHOULD BE ACCURATE. If some data is missing, which may create 100 steal players in 1944 or 30 homerun hitters in 1908, then the game should be able to realistically create fictional values to mirror the era, whether based on similar seasons or extant code written just for that issue. I'm no programmer, so I don't know how this or anything else would work, but I'm sure its within the realm of possibilities. At the very least, historical replays of the deadball era should not produce pitchers with 30 save seasons!

To conclude, a good sim should be about BASEBALL. Not the population of Western Sahara or Where's Waldo rules or odd life-sim elements that don't figure directly into the sport. For armchair GMs, the game should have trade, waiver, and drafting rules accurate to any given era. For armchair managers, the game should allow for anything that could happen on the field, rare or not.
Hopefully, someday, I'll find something that fulfills these wishes. Thanks for reading.

Have you tried Maximum Football?

[Icy]

Good first post, welcome to FOFC.

[Yakyuusei no Uchuujin]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Solid first post, I hope you stick around, and please don't EVER change your username.

Nothing to worry about there, trust me

[Yakyuusei no Uchuujin]

Originally Posted by Bee

Have you tried Maximum Football?

I don't think anyone on earth would want me in charge of a football team, virtual or otherwise, haha. Seriously though, the only football sim I've tried was Strat-o-matic's PC version and it more or less made me run and hide.

[Icy]

Originally Posted by Yakyuusei no Uchuujin

I don't think anyone on earth would want me in charge of a football team, virtual or otherwise, haha. Seriously though, the only football sim I've tried was Strat-o-matic's PC version and it more or less made me run and hide.

It was a joke from Bee, Maximum Footbal is probably one of the worst football games ever released, do a search on this board if you want fun. Right now the only USA football manager game choice is FOF2k4, really good game, deep and acurate on the stats.

[Icy]

Patch is out!!

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=126328

[ice4277]

Originally Posted by Icy

Patch is out!!

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=126328

somebody beat jbmagic to it

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by ice4277

somebody beat jbmagic to it

the horror!

[Marc Duffy]

Please stop causing problems(trouble)?!?!

[KWhit]

Problems.

[Marc Duffy]

DOH!

[KWhit]

Lousy Brits.

[st.cronin]

so, uh ... hows the ai?

[Icy]

Installing it, now i just need somebody to release a quickstart template for the real MLB06 and i'll be so happy.

[Marc Duffy]

Think a rosterset is coming out today actually

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Please stop causing problems(trouble)?!?!

At least get the quote correct.

[Marc Duffy]

Lousy Brits.

[ScottVib]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

At least get the quote correct.

Please stop causing problems.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Icy

Installing it, now i just need somebody to release a quickstart template for the real MLB06 and i'll be so happy.

Icy, I have a template I created in patch testing that has the real names for the major leagues and all the minor league teams. Much better than a quickstart, because you don't wind up with the same player situation.

If you want it, grab me on AIM.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Icy, I have a template I created in patch testing that has the real names for the major leagues and all the minor league teams. Much better than a quickstart, because you don't wind up with the same player situation.

If you want it, grab me on AIM.

How about the rest of us?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by dangarion

How about the rest of us?

Elitest

[DanGarion]

Feature request I made. If anyone else has any input.
http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...83#post1774783

[Galaril]

Wow I am shocked there haven't been more impressions of this after this new patch was released. I was hoping to get hte game tonight if peopel were reporting positive things.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow I am shocked there haven't been more impressions of this after this new patch was released. I was hoping to get hte game tonight if peopel were reporting positive things.

I was waiting on this...

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Think a rosterset is coming out today actually

But it doesn't look like it's out yet.

[Galaril]

I was going through my nightly reading of the blogs I read and saw this from Bill Harris over at his blog Dubious Quality. For those who don't know Bill he was the writer of the Night Call column at the old Gone Gold site which BTW I really miss reading.

Friday, July 07, 2006
Out of the Park Baseball 2006

I wrote a few weeks about geopolitical simulations (in reference to Balance of Power) and why no one seems to be able to finish one anymore. What has become of the geopolitical simulations?

Well, they’re still around, believe it or not, and they’re more complex than ever. Only now they’re called sports text-sims.

Don’t believe me? The premier game of the genre is Football Manager, developed by Sports Interactive. There are over 5,000 teams from 50 countries represented. Each of these teams is pursuing resources from a limited pool and is in competition with each other. Teams have different styles of play and their pursuit of these resources is affected as a result. There are direct conflicts (matches) and more indirect conflicts (pursuit of players).

Quibble if you’d like, but in my mind, FM is the most comprehensive geopolitical simulation ever created. Call it a sports geopolitical sim.

Two additional titles published by SI, Eastside Hockey Manager and Out of the Park Baseball, now have a look and feel that is consistent with the FM world. I’ve been playing OOTP for the last week, and I think it qualifies as a geopolitical simulation as well. Less complex than FM, certainly, but it’s still in the realm.

I couldn’t possibly review OOTP for you. Even twenty hours of play would barely be scratching the surface. Anyone who wants to honestly (and accurately) review this game needs to put in forty or fifty hours, and I’m just not compelled to play for that long.

Why I’m not compelled to play for that long is exactly what I want to talk about.

It’s not that OOTP isn’t a “good” game. It’s quite good, at least to me, and the interface overhaul that was performed to align it with other SI titles was well done. Yes, the interface needs more refinement, but it’s still an improvement. The addition of world leagues this year was totally inspired. The AI was a bit chewed in the initial release, but that’s being improved via the inevitable patches.

Here’s the real problem, though: most sports text-sims are, at a minimum, fifty-hour games. You can’t spend ten hours with one of these games and feel like you felt anything but the tip of the elephant. Even a hundred hours is well within reason if you want to experience everything.

So I’m not playing two or three of these games a year. They’re so incredibly time-intensive that I play only one a year, at most. I only know one person (Paul Costello, who’s an absolute witch as a G.M) who plays these kinds of games seasonally and goes 50+ hours with each one.

And if I’m only playing one, there’s no way I’m playing OOTP. There’s only one possible game to play, and that’s Football Manager.

Everyone who plays games should play at least one version of Football Manager. It’s a legendary game, and it deserves its legend. The real-world league structure of soccer/football is one of the greatest mechanics ever for a game. The promotion/relegation mechanic creates continuity. Your low-level squad could get promoted several times based on their final standing in the league table. Woking could play in the English Premier League, at least in theory (I think they could, anyway—I’ve damn sure never gotten them that far).

Baseball makes for a much less interesting game structure, unfortunately. Teams can’t get promoted or relegated. U.S. minor league teams are essentially feeders into major league clubs (with a very small number of independent teams out there). It’s a series of leagues at discreet levels with no connection in-between.

Worse, in the minor leagues, winning is really not important. The goal is player development. But if your role in the game is a manager, you’re going to be judged on wins and losses, not player development. In the world leagues, winning is important, but it still doesn’t have any continuity with the highest level of baseball—the American major league.

How much more interesting would it be to take a AA minor league club like Corpus Christi and get them into the major leagues?

It would be damned interesting. We can’t do that, though, and that’s why Football Manager has a far superior gaming structure than both OOTP and EHM. It’s not the other two games’ fault—they’re just mirroring the real world—but the real world, in this case, gives an enormous advantage to Football Manager.

Player movement is also far more interesting in FM. In baseball, player movement below the major league level is far more controlled, and minor league trades are generally made from the major league front office with an eye to improving the parent club. OOTP including world leagues is an excellent addition, but the player movement model pales compared to FM. Free transfers (free agents), players on loan, transfers under contract (which almost always involves payment and could involve additional players as well), youth squads, development teams—all involving a database that could potentially contain tens of thousands of players. It’s dizzying, but it’s also great fun.

One last point of distinction. OOTP’s in-game engine is static and quite lifeless compared to the 2D match representations in FM. And the FM text commentary has been honed for years to excellent effect. There’s also the option in Football Manager to see only key parts of the match instead of every second. Again, it’s a very clever way to keep the game moving, yet it doesn’t feel like you’re missing anything.

So what can OOTP do to narrow what is now a sizable gap between itself and FM? Most importantly, it desperately needs a 2D in-game engine. Graphics at even the level of the now-ancient Microleague Baseball would be a HUGE improvement. It’s just too damned hard to get immersed into the existing in-game engine of OOTP. It’s bland.

Next should be a hard stop on complexity. These games are complex enough. It would be very, very difficult for anyone to argue that these games need to be made more complicated, even for hardcore players. But it is very easy to argue that these games need to make their complexity more accessible. In OOTP, sometimes it feels like I’m drinking from a fire hose—it’s hard to taste anything.

One of the ways to make the game more playable is to spend time creating an in-depth walkthrough. Not a giant manual, not help screens (although those are both worthwhile features), but an actual tutorial that walks you through the first month of a season and touches on all the things you can do.

If that tutorial is too hard to create, if there are just too many options to create a learning path, just imagine how hard it would be for a new player to play the game.

I think the people who create these kinds of games are both sports fans and data guys. Every year, with every new version, they add more data, and they refine the sim engine. It’s the most natural thing for them to do. But a game like OOTP needs—desperately--to make its complexity more accessible than it needs to refine the number of innings the twelfth pitcher on the roster will throw during the season.

The other thing I think would make a difference for OOTP, and for all text sims, would be to create what I’d call a glide path.

Oh, now we’re getting all pretentious and shit. “Glide path.” Good grief.

In non-asshole terms, what I mean is that the game should have a mode where you can enjoy it without playing for fifty hours. Build another game path, one that reduces the number of choices a player has to make, but that still allows the player to experience a substantial subset of the game.

If you do that, and you showcase that streamlined experience in a demo, you’ll attract new players, and some of those players will happily wade into geopolitical world after getting a taste of the real thing.

Yes, you can argue that a player can do that in the existing version by automating various functions, but how many new players would really know how to do that? Almost none.

This has gone on far too long, and I apologize. I should have created a glide path for this post. Wait, it’s not too late. Here you go:
--OOTP is an excellent baseball text-sim
--as a game mechanic, soccer is a far better world for a text-sim because of the promotion/relegation structure
--these games require 50+ hours to fully experience, so most people will only play one a year
--in that case, the one game you should play is Football Manager.

[spleen1015]

I see what he is saying, but he is wrong on one account and that throws his 'one game' theory totally out the window.

How many of you guys put in more than 50 hours into more than one text sim per year?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I see what he is saying, but he is wrong on one account and that throws his 'one game' theory totally out the window.

How many of you guys put in more than 50 hours into more than one text sim per year?

Most of us are the exception I would guess. I mean, we thrive on text sports sims. That is why we're here, right?

[lighthousekeeper]

great article

[Desmond]

The mere fact that he thinks this baseball game would be better suited to having relegation implemented rather than fix the problem of why the minor leagues are important/not important is a no-no to me.

I want a baseball game, not a baseball game that plays like soccer.

It's ideas like that make me bang my head against the wall.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Galaril

Wow I am shocked there haven't been more impressions of this after this new patch was released. I was hoping to get hte game tonight if peopel were reporting positive things.

So far there been a lot of good impressions at ootp 2006 forum.

Hopefully Troy here can give us his impressions now that the patch is out.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by dangarion

How about the rest of us?

You've got my AIM too. Use it!

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Desmond

The mere fact that he thinks this baseball game would be better suited to having relegation implemented rather than fix the problem of why the minor leagues are important/not important is a no-no to me.

I think he was saying specifically that OOTP would be better with promotion/relegation and with that, I agree. The game basically begs for it and then leaves us hanging with half measures to do it. Is suggesting that tantamount to heresy for any good red blooded American baseball fan?

Yup.

But those folks don't want leagues in Ghana or don't edit the files to create leagues in worlds that don't exist either.

I think the game is catering to a certain type of baseball text-simmer and well...I think that's a smart move with the market being the way it is, all three of the text sims that are baseball centered (Mogul, OOTP, PureSim) offer you a different, yet immersive experience.

Each has their flaws and yet, do something different that would appeal to a particular fan base.

I think in some ways, the conventional minds lost their initial bout in the development of this new version of OOTP or at least, hearing them it feels that way. But when you consider SI's strengths with the other games, leaving those aspects out would make OOTP a pretty bland sim and not much of an improvement over the older versions.

[Young Drachma]

I think the patch is an obvious improvement.

When you consider at the beginning of the process the problems that existed to where we are now, that's big progress..but there is a lot more still to be done.

The most glaring things are mostly the memory issues. You'll notice a huge improvement (most likely) from the first patch to now. But its still slower than it ought to be and they've worked out a lot of the memory issues, but that'll be a big focus of the next part of the beta process.

I'm just a straight simmer, I don't do a lot of arcane managing and such, so I can't speak on that aspect. But I have noticed a decline in the number of sign/release/sign/release free agents by teams, though it still exists and needs to be nipped in the bud.

I haven't had a ton of time with the latest build, and I suspect its the same for a lot of folks, but..you should figure people will start sharing thoughts as the weekend gets going and into next week.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I think he was saying specifically that OOTP would be better with promotion/relegation and with that, I agree. The game basically begs for it and then leaves us hanging with half measures to do it. Is suggesting that tantamount to heresy for any good red blooded American baseball fan?

Yup.

But those folks don't want leagues in Ghana or don't edit the files to create leagues in worlds that don't exist either.

I think the game is catering to a certain type of baseball text-simmer and well...I think that's a smart move with the market being the way it is, all three of the text sims that are baseball centered (Mogul, OOTP, PureSim) offer you a different, yet immersive experience.

Each has their flaws and yet, do something different that would appeal to a particular fan base.

I think in some ways, the conventional minds lost their initial bout in the development of this new version of OOTP or at least, hearing them it feels that way. But when you consider SI's strengths with the other games, leaving those aspects out would make OOTP a pretty bland sim and not much of an improvement over the older versions.

This is why I didn't follow why a European based company that leaned towards soccer and hockey to very internationaal sports was interested in making a baseball game. It is kind of like EA make a cricket game ...................ah wait a minute didn't they just make acricket game?

[Desmond]

Im not sure that catering to the crowd that wants leagues in Zimbabwe and relegation is really the best idea for a baseball sim, but im zany.

Edit: Or what Galaril said.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Desmond

Im not sure that catering to the crowd that wants leagues in Zimbabwe and relegation is really the best idea for a baseball sim, but im zany.

Edit: Or what Galaril said.

Right, I get that. And I didn't say it was something I'd do. But there is another side to it.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by Desmond

The mere fact that he thinks this baseball game would be better suited to having relegation implemented rather than fix the problem of why the minor leagues are important/not important is a no-no to me.

I want a baseball game, not a baseball game that plays like soccer.

It's ideas like that make me bang my head against the wall.

I don't think that's what he's saying at all - I think he's just pointing out that Football Manager inherently has the edge as an engaging text sim because the structure of futbol (w/ promotion & relegation) lends itself more easily to the roleplay aspects of gameplay.

[Icy]

The thing that really puts FM way over OOTP is not the 2D view imho but the players personalities. When Marcus merged with SI, my first thougt and dream was that he was going to do OOTP 6.5 fixing the AI roster management and adding the FM style players personalities, conflicts, etc etc, and media interation. That would have been the perfect baseball game as that stuff is what gives the RPG feeling to FM, you feel like a real GM.

Instead they went for the long term project, starting from zero, substracting features from 6.5 and adapting it to SI interface etc. I guess this is the best way of putting a great base to have in the future the great OOTP we always dreamed about, but on the other hand, in the short term, it created a lot of frustration to all us waiting 2 years to get the new OOTP and getting this instead, that for some looks like a step down in the series.

The positive thing is that the base keeps getting better and better with the patches, and the future more promissing, our dream will come, i trust SI on doing it. Don't prove me wrong guys

[Marc Duffy]

I think you nailed it, Markus opted for the long term and we believe it was a sensible choice to make.

Over time I'm confident some stuff that was in 6.5 will make it's way over to the SI code and at the same time we'll bring in elements from FM/EHM and also new stuff not seen elsewhere. Ambitious is a word used a lot for OOTP.

[Toddzilla]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Ambitious is a word used a lot for OOTP.

Unfortunately for some of us there is another word - unplayable. I'll keep playing 6.5 for the next few years until SI gets this one right. *Sigh* I guess disappointment is another word you could use.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Unfortunately for some of us there is another word - unplayable. I'll keep playing 6.5 for the next few years until SI gets this one right. *Sigh* I guess disappointment is another word you could use.

So evidentally you've given the new patch a thorough test run?

[CraigSca]

It's funny. I like the realism in these games, but there comes a certain point in time where complexity turns into drudgery. I started creating my ideal league last night - 26 team major leagues using real team names and their true minor league systems. The fact is, I held off on setting this up because I was not looking forward to doing it. As it is, I got halfway and saved my progress (thank goodness that was added in the patch). However, the drudgery has prevented me from beginning my game due to the large amount of setup.