Werewolf XXV: A long time ago...game over, Sith win,full role listing at 2030

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

It just seems a little off to on one hand say he's doing a cruddy job if he's still with us, and then in almost the same breath say that it's better for him to stay quiet if he doesn't have any information.

But I do think at this point that if we haven't had any help from that avenue yet that we're probably not going to get it. I only hope we can pull this out without needing it.

I don't see the contradiction. If the job hasn't been done to this point, I see more value in continuing to try than a reveal which will result a death that night. In any case, the cruddy job part was more of an expression of frustration at our lack of progress, rather than an insightful observation. If he is alive, I hope he does a better job than we've been doing in selecting people.

[hoopsguy]

Day 1 - Superman - none shown, taken via Force Grip (post #264)
Night 1 - Eaglesfan - emerald green (post #304)
Night 1 - AlanT - none shown (post #304)
Day 2 - Lathum - bright pink (post #447)
Night 2 - no kill, defender with bright azure battling Sith to standstill (post #493)
Day 3 - Dubb - lavender (post #726)
Night 3 - Schmidty - jade green (post #798)
Day 4 - Qwikshot - pale yellow (post #961)
Night 4 - mckerney - periwinkle blue (post #1054)
Day 5 - Tanglewood - yellow/gold (post #1242)
Night 5 - JeeberD - lime green (post #1292)


Guardians (blue) - mckerney, bodyguard
Consulars (green) - Eaglesfan, Schmidty, JeeberD
Sentinels (yellow) - QwikShot, Tanglewood
Sith (red) - Dubb (if lavender counts?)

Not defined - Alan T, Superman, Lathum

[tanglewood]

Hey guys, nice to lynch me without letting me have a say.

Don't worry, I was unexpectedly without internet access all day as my PC went el Kaput on me. Go get 'em Jedis!

[hoopsguy]

I am saddened by the death of JeeberD, but will try to draw some inspiration and hope from his reminder that the Jedi always win in the end. It beats the alternative, which is to give way to fear and anger ... we all know how that ends.

Either Ardent or Taz is getting played here.
- Day 4, Ardent comes out firing at Taz
- Taz is willing to surrender himself for the good of the team
- Ardent is forced (?) to move his vote from Taz to Qwikshot late in the game, creating the tie that leads to Qwik's death
- Day 5, Taz is still in martyr mode early
- He builds a big lead, before people switch over to Tanglewood
- Taz votes for Jeeber
- Jeeber dies that night
- no one else in the game has been forced to move a vote in five days

My other concern: we have no info on any of the four people who voted for Taz on Day 4 (Sack, Barkeep/Path12, Taz, Desnudo)

I have said before that I believe Ardent is telling the truth about his vote being moved and that he is my most trusted. I'll stick to that. If there are only two Sith (and we have to hope that is the case, or this game is close to over), then Dubb would have had to know their identities at the very least to make a play on Ardent the way he did as an attempt to buy him clearance later.

Even then, if there are only two Sith that is just so risky that early in the game. Dubb is a calculating guy. I firmly believe that he was trying to eliminate players rather than provide cover for a fellow Sith. He helped build the argument for Lathum on Days 1 and 2. He then went after AE on Day 3.

If Ardent was a Sith, would he have left his vote on himself at the end of Day 3 and risk getting taken out? No way if there are only two Sith. Remember it was mckerney who came in to break the tie late that day - a known Jedi at this point.

If I believe Ardent, which I obviously do, then I have to take a harder look at Taz. He cast a late vote against Ardent on Day 3 (AE did ask for it, he was playing a weird game up to that point) which is what turned AE against him on Day 4 and at the start of Day 5. He was bailed out of being lynched by the vote change on Day 4 and saw late movement away from him on Day 5. And his voting record is lousy (tied for worst in first three days, then voted himself and Jeeber). I'm not positive this is the right play, but I feel better about it than I have any vote that I've cast up to this point:

VOTE TAZ

[Poli]

Vote Taz

[Poli]

I've changed my mind. I've had just about enough of stkelly52.

UNVOTE TAZ
VOTE STKELLY52

[KWhit]

I don't trust AE or Taz and think one of them is a Sith. One of these guys will get my vote today unless something really odd happens. But I'm not sure which one to go with yet.

[path12]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I don't see the contradiction. If the job hasn't been done to this point, I see more value in continuing to try than a reveal which will result a death that night. In any case, the cruddy job part was more of an expression of frustration at our lack of progress, rather than an insightful observation. If he is alive, I hope he does a better job than we've been doing in selecting people.

If a seer is alive (and I'll maintain that's a pretty unlikely if at this point) I think we'd at least get some benefit by not lynching another jedi. So maybe the stipulation should be that if it looks as if we're going to vote someone they know is innocent it's time to say so.

[pennywisesb]

Well, that sucks about Tanglewood. Good job Cartman, at least I didn't finish him off.....

On a serious note, we are getting slaughtered here Jedis. Now, the kills the sith are picking are very calculated. There is no malice involved and they continue to pick players to kill that will give us next to nothing in evidence. My hat is off to the sith at this point.

Now, that being said, I still think there is at least one sith in the Hoops, AE, and Barkeep/path group. I'm starting to feel like Grammaticus here in thinking that one of the three needs to be tested. We all listened to Ardent yesterday when he was positive that Taz/Tanglewood was sith and look where it got us. Now, AE and Hoops seemed to have aligned themselves. I'm not convinced AE is sith, however, and I think he could be mislead at this point.

I don't think we should waste another vote on Taz at this point because I think Tangle coming up Jedi somewhat clears him (at least enough for us to go another direction). I think Hoops vote at this point could be another smoke screen to keep us from voting a sith another day.

Vote Hoops

I'd like to hear what Gramm and Des have to say at this point.

[path12]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I have said before that I believe Ardent is telling the truth about his vote being moved and that he is my most trusted. I'll stick to that. If there are only two Sith (and we have to hope that is the case, or this game is close to over), then Dubb would have had to know their identities at the very least to make a play on Ardent the way he did as an attempt to buy him clearance later.

Even then, if there are only two Sith that is just so risky that early in the game. Dubb is a calculating guy. I firmly believe that he was trying to eliminate players rather than provide cover for a fellow Sith. He helped build the argument for Lathum on Days 1 and 2. He then went after AE on Day 3.

If Ardent was a Sith, would he have left his vote on himself at the end of Day 3 and risk getting taken out? No way if there are only two Sith. Remember it was mckerney who came in to break the tie late that day - a known Jedi at this point.

I find this a compelling enough argument to follow, especially with lack of any better alternative.

VOTE TAZ

[Poli]

The Saga Begins by Weird Al Yankovic

[Poli]

I wish I could find the Yoda song. I really like that one.

[Qwikshot]

I'd like to say, that I'm dead.
I'd like to say, that I'm dead.
Whatever secrets that I have...
Were silenced when I was split in half...
Oh no, oh yay, oh no, oh yay
No further can I play
Because I'm dead, because I'm dead...because I'm deaaaaaaaaaaad

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I've changed my mind. I've had just about enough of stkelly52.

UNVOTE TAZ
VOTE STKELLY52

I think that AE v. Taz is setting up another jedi v. jedi showdown.

VOTE STKELLY52

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I think that AE v. Taz is setting up another jedi v. jedi showdown.

What makes you suspicious of stkelly? He hasn't made much of an impression on me either way to this point.

[hoopsguy]

Early vote count, as of post #1315:

ardent - stkelly (1296)
taz - hoops (1304), Path (1310)
stkelly - AE (1305), Desnudo (1314)
Hoops - Penny (1309)

I will have some time this afternoon where I'm in a meeting and not available. So someone else may have to update these (Gram?) for a few hours. Should be back well before the deadline.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by pennywisesb

Well, that sucks about Tanglewood. Good job Cartman, at least I didn't finish him off.....

On a serious note, we are getting slaughtered here Jedis. Now, the kills the sith are picking are very calculated. There is no malice involved and they continue to pick players to kill that will give us next to nothing in evidence. My hat is off to the sith at this point.

Now, that being said, I still think there is at least one sith in the Hoops, AE, and Barkeep/path group. I'm starting to feel like Grammaticus here in thinking that one of the three needs to be tested. We all listened to Ardent yesterday when he was positive that Taz/Tanglewood was sith and look where it got us. Now, AE and Hoops seemed to have aligned themselves. I'm not convinced AE is sith, however, and I think he could be mislead at this point.

I don't think we should waste another vote on Taz at this point because I think Tangle coming up Jedi somewhat clears him (at least enough for us to go another direction). I think Hoops vote at this point could be another smoke screen to keep us from voting a sith another day.

Vote Hoops

I'd like to hear what Gramm and Des have to say at this point.

Voted before I saw your post Penny, as I was starting to get fired up over this Taz v. AE deal. I'm not against a Hoops vote at ths point, but I think we should be careful about the decision since he's obviously valuable as an ally. I think there are two situations:

1. Hoops is a Jedi, but is, like the rest of us, completely off track in his reasoning. So they are letting him live.

2. Hoops is a Sith and has attached himself to Ardent as cover.

I don't think that - 3. Hoops is Jedi, but he just hasn't come up on the list yet is a possibility.

I agree with your point about Taz. If you look back to the original momentum towards Taz, which I was a part of, Hoops was able to deduce Taz as a suspect (that KWhit/Taz post) pretty quickly once it became obvious the wind was shifting towards him. In his vote for him today, he pretty much ignores the fact that Tangle, a known jedi, tried to save Taz, which is what eventually led to his own death.

[cartman]

I can honestly say I don't have a clue as to which way I'll vote. It still seems that we are completely taking shots in the dark with our picks. It seems as though we are still on day one, based on the info we have, or lack thereof.

[hoopsguy]

Desnudo, do you think that Tanglewood had knowledge of Taz as a sure-fire Jedi? Or was he guessing like the rest of us have been all game?

Any theory I have of Taz as a Sith don't involve him as the "Master" in the Sith hierarchy, so I'm all for changing the vote to someone I think is playing the master role. That said, my confidence level in Taz as a Sith is higher than it has been for anyone else up to this point in the game. Partly because we have fewer people, so there are fewer scenarios to construct, but mostly because of what I outlined in Post #1304.

[hoopsguy]

Desnudo, based on the information in Post #1304 do you really think that both AE and Taz are Jedi? And that the Sith are cunning enough to lay traps for two people at the same time over multiple days? It is awfully hard to have a long-term strategy in werewolf games, which is why I'm skeptical of the "double frame-up".

[Poli]

I was thinking about the seer last night. If he's still alive, then he's had, what 5, 6 scans now? He's either dead, or he's come up empty every time.

I thought about doing something drastic. I thought about coming out and saying I was the seer and pointing at Taz, claiming he was a Sith. If a majority believed me, Taz would be gone, Sith or not...and I think I've made it clear in the past I believe he's a Sith. Now maybe Tangle compelled me to vote, I don't know.

Anyway, that's saying the seer is dead or doesn't speak up when I say I'm the seer. You could have guaranteed at that point the real seer was voting against me in this scenario, if he was alive.

Scenario 2 has the seer revealing himself, and who he has scanned. Personally, I'm hoping he's still alive and has come up empty each time. It sucks, but we're getting closer and closer to the end game, I think. I'd like the seer to reveal himself and who he has scanned sometime soon.

If he is alive and drawn blanks, well, that's 5 blanks that can make a circle of trust. I know it's risky, but we're seriously grasping at straws right now.

By the way, Tangle asked me if I saw who did it, and I was weary of Tangle at that point because I thought he was a Sith. I did not see who I ran into. The guy had a hood on and raised his hand. That is it.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by KWhit

What makes you suspicious of stkelly? He hasn't made much of an impression on me either way to this point.

I think AE and Taz are both jedi. Tangle's play to save Taz pretty much confirms it for Taz (and makes me concerned that Tangle was the seer). AE I was much less certain about, and am still somewhat uncertain about based on action. I keep coming back to Dubb's initial accusation so early in the game. I just can't see that as anything more than an attempt to start a bandwagon on a jedi. I also tried to pressure AE yesterday and I didn't feel I was getting anything from it. Which of course may mean that I'm just bad at being a bad cop, but I think it's a slight consideration in his favor. I would expect a wolf to overplay his hand in that scenario.

Based on past games, I'd imagine Dubb's victory condition probably had the caveat that he be alive at the end. So a fake accuse and sacrifice death probably doesn't get him the win. I don't think it's the same deal as when a werewolf lays down a smokescreen of fake "people I suspect" posts.

I have no idea about stkelly other than he jumped on AE. His posts sound Jediish, and that's my general impression of him. I'm not against voting for someone other than him at this point, but am trying to avoid an AE v. Taz showdown.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Desnudo, based on the information in Post #1304 do you really think that both AE and Taz are Jedi? And that the Sith are cunning enough to lay traps for two people at the same time over multiple days? It is awfully hard to have a long-term strategy in werewolf games, which is why I'm skeptical of the "double frame-up".

Who knows if this was the "plan" or if it just worked out perfectly for them. It's possible they haven't had to do anything and we've done all the work for them (if Tangle made AE switch his vote).

If the Sith made AE switch his vote, they were probably going for a tie which meant the possibility that there would be no kill (leaving them an extra night kill) and us faced with the same two jedi on the block again plus real confusion over AE's deal.

Obviously they couldn't have predicted Tangle's attempted tie-break vote and the impact it had on proceedings. I think it led AE to draw some conclusions about a Tangle-Taz alignment and generally just confused everyone.

Part of the reason I originally concluded that Taz was a Jedi is that he left his vote on himself the whole time. In hindsight, this nearly totally clears him to me. Now that we know Tangle is a Jedi, that vote seems especialy significant. If Taz is a Sith, he would have had no idea that Tangle would attempt to break the tie. No Sith, especially if there are only two, would kill himself or leave it to Saldana.

Now AE, I keep coming back to the Dubb comment. So yes, I can believe both AE and Taz are jedi.

[hoopsguy]

No Sith, especially if there are only two, would kill himself or leave it to Saldana.

This I completely agree with. And unless the Sith knew the tie-breaker logic, makes a compelling argument.

UNVOTE TAZ

[SackAttack]

I've said before, and I'll reiterate, that I believe AE is innocent.

I think a couple of his recent showdowns have been survival-oriented. With his head coming up repeatedly on the chopping block, I don't blame him for thinking the people leading the way might be Sith. That they were Jedi just illustrates the depth of nothingness we know about this game so far.

stkelly coming on awful strong in the aftermath of tanglewood's lynching has me wondering if he's trying to press that fact to get AE removed.

vote stkelly

[path12]

UNVOTE TAZ

I need to rethink this.

[hoopsguy]

Updated votes through Post #1326:
ardent - stkelly (1296)
stkelly - AE (1305), Desnudo (1314), Sack (1325)
Hoops - Penny (1309)

Not voted: lots of people


I'm out for awhile, will cast a vote upon my return. The fact that three people I have included on my trust list (more like trust-a-smidge list) have opted for stkelly is interesting. I've defended AE for a couple of days now, so I obviously think he is making a bad play assuming AE is a Sith. But I want to wait for him to expand upon his thoughts (or at least give him time to do so) before making my decision.

[cartman]

After going back and re-reading, I'm still stumped. I don't want to make a vote without being able to back it up for a reason, but I can't think of any reason to single anyone out at this point.

[SnDvls]

since I almost fully trust AE (80%) and stkelly seems to be attacking him based on some funky play by Tanglewood it jumps stkelly to the top of my list. there are also a few quiet players who still are on my unknow radar. I'd like to believe stkelly is bad, but I've not played with him to know if he's on his "game" or not.

[SnDvls]

I'm going to throw a flyer out there and see what happens

vote king

[SnDvls]

dola - see if this gets us anywhere I guess. I could be totally off on this one so don't follow me unless you know something I don't.

[Poli]

Originally Posted by ardent enthusiast

I was thinking about the seer last night. If he's still alive, then he's had, what 5, 6 scans now? He's either dead, or he's come up empty every time.

I thought about doing something drastic. I thought about coming out and saying I was the seer and pointing at Taz, claiming he was a Sith. If a majority believed me, Taz would be gone, Sith or not...and I think I've made it clear in the past I believe he's a Sith. Now maybe Tangle compelled me to vote, I don't know.

Anyway, that's saying the seer is dead or doesn't speak up when I say I'm the seer. You could have guaranteed at that point the real seer was voting against me in this scenario, if he was alive.

Scenario 2 has the seer revealing himself, and who he has scanned. Personally, I'm hoping he's still alive and has come up empty each time. It sucks, but we're getting closer and closer to the end game, I think. I'd like the seer to reveal himself and who he has scanned sometime soon.

If he is alive and drawn blanks, well, that's 5 blanks that can make a circle of trust. I know it's risky, but we're seriously grasping at straws right now.

By the way, Tangle asked me if I saw who did it, and I was weary of Tangle at that point because I thought he was a Sith. I did not see who I ran into. The guy had a hood on and raised his hand. That is it.

Bump.

[path12]

You sure can tell when we're stumped by the lack of messages.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by path12

You sure can tell when we're stumped by the lack of messages.

I was noticing that. I hoped we'd have some discussion before I have to leave to umpire a 4:15 game at the Pony League complex, since I won't be back until shortly after the deadline.

Since we've not any discussion so far, I'm sticking by my vote, absent a better reason to switch.

[path12]

Post #240:

Originally Posted by stkelly52

Having never played this game before, I am unaware of some of the stratagy that goes into it

Post #307:

Originally Posted by stkelly52

Has this board used the Cupid character in Werewolf before? is there any way to find out if the Alan was a sith as well (which is normally possible with cupid)?

If you've never played before, how do you know that it is normally possible to have a Cupid character on each side?

[cartman]

I too will join the stkelly bandwagon. It appears our best option at this time is to just made a clear choice on a person, and not have it be affected by last minute vote switching.

Vote stkelly52

[path12]

Dola, I guess what I'm curious about is this. You claim this to be your first game ever, yet you've been aggressively after Ardent for at least a couple of days now, which many of us have been, but not as singlemindedly as your posts suggest.

So now we see an example of where on one hand you profess ignorance of the game never having played before, and on the other you reference a fairly obscure role and rule.

If you're actually more experienced in this game than you're letting on, it'd be a good way for a Sith to hide. Just sayin.

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by path12

Post #240:



Post #307:



If you've never played before, how do you know that it is normally possible to have a Cupid character on each side?

Interesting.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by path12

Post #240:



Post #307:



If you've never played before, how do you know that it is normally possible to have a Cupid character on each side?

Yeah. I could see if he had read the games, but not played them, but if you're reading the games, you're going to pick something up by osmosis at the least.

[pennywisesb]

Path may have just found us a Sith......

[Poli]

While I really DON'T want to defend him due to the amount of times he's gone after me, I have seen stkelly in our threads in a number of games.

[path12]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Yeah. I could see if he had read the games, but not played them, but if you're reading the games, you're going to pick something up by osmosis at the least.

I guess it's the "normally possible with cupid" quote that really resonates. I've only played five or six of these, and I can't remember ever seeing that before.

So at least in my (limited) experience, I don't think it's a role that has come up very often here. At least not enough to be "normally possible".

Was it something more common in earlier games here?

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

This is what I believe, that there is a Jedi/Sith Mind Trick available in this game. I mentioned in my previous post about rereading my role, so it is time for my role reveal. I am only slightly different than the normal Jedi. The only difference between me and a normal Jedi is that I have a stronger will. I first took that as a 'I cannot be converted' role but rereading it makes me think that I won't fall for a Jedi Mind Trick (and the can't be converted part also true).

This post bears repeating. What is going on here, it is billed as a role reveal and just falls flat? Is anyone else concerned about this? Not saying it makes Taz bad, just is it something to work off? Did anyone else get a post that told them they had a stronger will? Taz, is there anything else to your role that you are keeping out? If we do not start building off something, the game is going to be over for us Jedi.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by path12

I guess it's the "normally possible with cupid" quote that really resonates. I've only played five or six of these, and I can't remember ever seeing that before.

So at least in my (limited) experience, I don't think it's a role that has come up very often here. At least not enough to be "normally possible".

Was it something more common in earlier games here?

It isn't a role I've seen very often, but admittedly I haven't paid attention to too many games since, oh, December? It's been a couple of months.

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by path12

I guess it's the "normally possible with cupid" quote that really resonates. I've only played five or six of these, and I can't remember ever seeing that before.

So at least in my (limited) experience, I don't think it's a role that has come up very often here. At least not enough to be "normally possible".

Was it something more common in earlier games here?

That is exactly what I was thinking. Actually saying you know of a Cupid role, could mean that you read a few games or read up on the game a little. But saying it is "normally possible" implies you play enough to make a statement of what normal is. I have been keeping stkelly out of my line of sight, mostly because it appears to be his first game on FOFC. A person in their first game is usually not a bad guy. Maybe stkelly is someone to look at more closely.

[TazFTW]

Putting a placeholder vote.

I think we still need to take a look at Hoops. If he's a Jedi, why is he still alive to provide us with analysis? I mean even if he's been after the wrong people initially, he'll eventually find a lead. Why would the Sith allow that to happen?

However, as for now.

VOTE STKELLY52

[TazFTW]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

This post bears repeating. What is going on here, it is billed as a role reveal and just falls flat? Is anyone else concerned about this? Not saying it makes Taz bad, just is it something to work off? Did anyone else get a post that told them they had a stronger will? Taz, is there anything else to your role that you are keeping out? If we do not start building off something, the game is going to be over for us Jedi.

No, just that my will is my own (which is why I believe that there is a Mind Trick in this game).

[Grammaticus]

Originally Posted by TazFTW

No, just that my will is my own (which is why I believe that there is a Mind Trick in this game).

Yes, but if that is part of your role, then it is something. I did not get a message that said the same in my PM. If it did not expand in definition to tell you what it helps you do, then it sounds minor and there is a chance others may have gotten the same type of PM.

[Poli]

Hmmm.

Didn't Taz say he didn't believe that I felt compelled to vote for Qwik?

[Grammaticus]

I still think Hoops, Barkeep/Path or Ardent are one of the bad guys. Not sure what to think of Path's point out of stkelly's cupid comment. Might be something there. I'm gonna go ahead with my feel on Hoops

VOTE HOOPS