Werewolf LVIII: Clash of the Gods (GAME OVER)

[Chief Rum]

I will be out again in the day and likely won't get on until much closer to deadline, since on Friday's I usually get my workout in before coming home.

I will be curious to see what direction everyone's talking about going. I am still most suspicious of Telle, but, like others have said, there are a ton of people pinging the wrong radar. I'm not locked into voting for her at all.

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Uranus was killed in the first post. How is he still alive?

You can't kill Uranus, you can only hope to contain him!

(seriously, just a broken story telling. Nothing to see here, move along!)

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

what about someone like purduebrad or racer?

Hey DT, my reveal is actually set up and out there from day one. I would prefer not to point it out, but if necessary I will. I am an Olympian.

[Telle]

Well I'm here but I'm going to be going back and updating my notes from where I left off last night.

[DaddyTorgo]

okay PB...i was just trying to point out people who may have escaped notice so far is all. not saying i have any strong suspiscions

[PurdueBrad]

DT, no problem. Telle had mentioned my name yesterday, you had last night and just wanted to clear it up.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

okay PB...i was just trying to point out people who may have escaped notice so far is all. not saying i have any strong suspiscions

*Looks around*

People like...

Schmidty?



*ducks, avoids HULK SMASH!*

[Lathum]

oK,

First off I am curious why RA thinks Telle, NeonChaos and DT are good.

And if we factor in people who have been semi vouched for we get/

NeonChaos
DT
Telle
RaidersArmy ( the vouchee)

factor in roles that have revealed who we assume good

Lathum
ArlingtonColt
Anxiety

That leaves us a group containing

Hoopsguy
St.Cronin
PurdueBrad
ChiefRum
Ardent
Racer

Now if any of those people can be cleared we can further narrow things down, or if anyone has information that can clear or damn one of the above now is a good time.

Now may be a good time to lay some cards on the table.

I just woke up and am doing this from the top of my head, so if I missed anything please speak up.

[Lathum]

dola- I won't be around much this weekend

We are flying home to Jersey today @2:30 and I won't be around until late. Tomorow and sunday I may be in and out but can't gurantee anything, we have to do our final wedding planning so it's gonna be a busy weekend. We are also flyong back monday. So assuming I am still alive I won't be around to much.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Lathum

oK,

First off I am curious why RA thinks Telle, NeonChaos and DT are good.

And if we factor in people who have been semi vouched for we get/

NeonChaos
DT
Telle
RaidersArmy ( the vouchee)

factor in roles that have revealed who we assume good

Lathum
ArlingtonColt
Anxiety

That leaves us a group containing

Hoopsguy
St.Cronin
PurdueBrad
ChiefRum
Ardent
Racer

Now if any of those people can be cleared we can further narrow things down, or if anyone has information that can clear or damn one of the above now is a good time.

Now may be a good time to lay some cards on the table.

I just woke up and am doing this from the top of my head, so if I missed anything please speak up.

You missed Schmidty.

Hoopsguy
St.Cronin
PurdueBrad
ChiefRum
Ardent
Racer
Schmidty

[Lathum]

ummm, schmidty blew up last night

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Lathum

ummm, schmidty blew up last night

Oh yeah, I forgot. Lol.

[st.cronin]

VOTE CHIEF RUM

I'm still very much in the dark, this game.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Lathum

That leaves us a group containing

Hoopsguy
St.Cronin
PurdueBrad
ChiefRum
Ardent
Racer

Ok, so let's start from the top. Thoughts on Hoops? I've had positive feelings regarding him, but nothing concrete. He's been doing a bit of digging and analysis.. but that's no guarantee that he's a good-guy. But I also haven't noticed anything suspect about him.

[st.cronin]

For me its between CR and Hoopsguy today. Could change, I guess.

[hoopsguy]

I'll answer whatever questions people have about me, just like always.

I'm not sold on the people who have revealed all being in the clear, as they continue to advance without being the night target. But the kill of RendeR last night was also in line with the Night 2 kill, which seemed like it was made to take down the most trusted player.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I'll answer whatever questions people have about me, just like always.

I'm not sold on the people who have revealed all being in the clear, as they continue to advance without being the night target. But the kill of RendeR last night was also in line with the Night 2 kill, which seemed like it was made to take down the most trusted player.

Unfortunately I don't know what to ask that would help. Your voting record isn't much help to us since you couldn't vote Day 2 and you missed the early-ending vote Day 3. Do you have anything that you could say that would help us know whether or not you're to be trusted?

[hoopsguy]

OK, here are some more thoughts around Apollo:

1.) Neon has floated the idea that Apollo is scanning people. Neon, do you know this for sure? I think having the knowledge that the seer is in the game is valuable in terms of making assumptions at this point.

2.) It has been suggested that Apollo is responsible for the early deadline last night

3.) We are working off of a trust list provided by Raiders Army with three names, which might suggest that he is Apollo. Don't shoot me for posting this, the bad guys can pull this stuff up as well. If we are going to have a good conversation about this then we need to understand what we are analyzing. If he can clear three people and another one today (potentially - he did have his vote in play) then that is exceptionally valuable for us.
I don't think that Apollo would be able to both scan a person yesterday and to take an action that ends the day early. That action screams "4+ points" to me, probably 4 points with a once/game restriction.

However, if Apollo is out there scanning people then he/she should only be able to validate two people plus whatever for today.

So if Raiders is Apollo and has a trust list based on this, then he can't have been the person who changed the deadline. Because he provided three names yesterday. Which means that these are separate roles.

Lathum also has included a visitor to him on Night 1 as trusted up to this point, but that can't be Raiders as Raiders did not list him as trusted.

So this is my best attempt to help us create a better trust list today. Other things that could help with this would include:
- Arlington Colt giving someone the weapon he has been crafting
- Anxiety having multiple people who can vouch for him, as he has suggested he is using his unique powers each night

[hoopsguy]

Telle, if you want to look at my voting record you should see that I voted Neon Chaos on Day 1 near the end. If I was a Titan I had the opportunity to try and save Path at that stage and did not.

I did cast a vote yesterday and it was towards Neon. It just came three minutes after the surprise deadline, before Alan posted that there was a surprise deadline. I don't know for sure that I would have stayed on Neon, because I was exploring the posts where RendeR seemed adamant about voting for you and I saw Lathum following him. So I might have changed it, but my suspicion level on Neon Chaos has been high all game long. I posted about his Day 3 play in depth yesterday prior to putting my vote on him.

My actions have also been curtailed by being kidnapped on Night 1 (no actions or votes Day 2) and the deadline last night, which will cause me to only be able to vote one point today. So there isn't much of a report that I can give to help my cause.

I do have some information that I could share, along with a role reveal, but I don't think it provides enough value for the group in terms of making a good vote today. A role reveal, without some level of information that can be validated, doesn't bring much to the table in my opinion.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

OK, here are some more thoughts around Apollo:

1.) Neon has floated the idea that Apollo is scanning people. Neon, do you know this for sure? I think having the knowledge that the seer is in the game is valuable in terms of making assumptions at this point.

Unfortunately, no, I don't know this for sure, hoops. I was only floating this idea yesterday considering that all the oracles of greece had temples to apollo.

If Apollo was responsible for last night, I doubt he's a seer as well.

[hoopsguy]

The last thing that I would say in my defense is to try and trust your read on me if there isn't anything else to help make the decision. I always feel like there is a significant difference in my good-guy/bad-guy play, but that rarely seems to be clear to others when I am a good guy based on the amount of scrutiny I get in mid-game stages.

I'm definitely playing to help the Olympians win and I think that my death would be a bad thing for us. I would like to see us focus our efforts elsewhere so we might catch a Titan, but I understand that examination of fellow players is part of the game and how we eventually build towards good decisions. So I'll be as forthright as I can, while still trying to understand the dynamics of this particular game in a larger sense.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Unfortunately, no, I don't know this for sure, hoops. I was only floating this idea yesterday considering that all the oracles of greece had temples to apollo.

If Apollo was responsible for last night, I doubt he's a seer as well.

Apollo IS a seer, since he scanned me (and he wasn't a "visitor".. I sensed him scanning me while I was in my mind-altered state from the potion). So then he probably wasn't responsible for last night.. because I'd think being both a seer (which is generally considered a pretty powerful role) and having power over the deadline would be a bit much for a single role.

[hoopsguy]

So if it wasn't Apollo, then who was it?

Does that sound like a power that would be associated with Hades or Poseidon? I don't think so ...

So, who would have this power and why would they use it at this juncture in the game? I don't want to see us get sidetracked on the balance implications of the power, but understanding why it was used at the point it was seems important when there was still a lot of uncertainty in the vote.

Intuitively, I would want to use the power when I felt comfortable with the present choice in the vote but feared what might come to pass in next few minutes leading up to deadline. Screwing a few people on actions both that day and the following day is either a nice secondary benefit or an unfortunate casualty of the power, depending on your perspective.

[Neon_Chaos]

Anxiety, you said that you visited someone. By this visit, can you confirm that the person you visited is a good guy? And what are the reasons that you feel that st.cronin is good as well?

Also, ArlingtonColt, is the weapon you're making ready?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Telle

Apollo IS a seer, since he scanned me (and he wasn't a "visitor".. I sensed him scanning me while I was in my mind-altered state from the potion). So then he probably wasn't responsible for last night.. because I'd think being both a seer (which is generally considered a pretty powerful role) and having power over the deadline would be a bit much for a single role.

Ok then. Telle is the only confirmation right now that Apollo is the seer, and that he's scanning people. We can choose to believe her, or not.

I, for one, am only leaning into putting more trust into Telle at this point.

[hoopsguy]

My guess on the person who put the action into play last night. The Titan Hyperion.

From Wikipedia:

"Of Hyperion we are told that he was the first to understand, by diligent attention and observation, the movement of both the sun and the moon and the other stars, and the seasons as well, in that they are caused by these bodies, and to make these facts known to others; and that for this reason he was called the father of these bodies, since he had begotten, so to speak, the speculation about them and their nature." —Diodorus Siculus (5.67.1)

[hoopsguy]

I'm all for listening to other viewpoints on last night, but if it was a Titan then the early nightfall seems pretty sinister.

There are a couple of things you can take from this:
1. They were just fine with the vote leaders at that moment, not realizing that Telle was going to put the max-vote in for Schmidty. This is even more likely when you factor that my vote count posts didn't list Telle's action, as I missed it
2. They did know that Telle had four votes in (this scenario has her as a Titan) and were willing to take the chance that all of the voters with 2-3 votes were just one point votes. This seems very unlikely to me

If you accept Scenario #1 above, then you would also buy in that the Titans had their action submitted already - why would they screw their teammates?

Again, lets have some discussion around these points because while this makes sense in my head I'm up for having other people poke holes in it before pushing too hard with this set of assumptions.

[hoopsguy]

Also, if it was a Titan then there are at least two left - Hyperion and Atlas (assumption). Atlas because of the idea that the gods are getting beat to pulp. Hyperion because of the action last night.

Clearly the killing Titan got their action in and had a one point vote. So if we want to hunt for Atlas and Hyperion (two Titans) I think it makes the most sense to look at people who had their votes in and are not trusted.

Obviously this can be seen as self-serving, since I didn't have my vote in play. But attack the logic if there is a rebuttal - would the Titans put in an action that damaged their ability to act the next day? Maybe if there is one left, but I don't think a team of people (even if the team is only two) makes that goof when they have had three days to consider this move.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

My guess on the person who put the action into play last night. The Titan Hyperion.

From Wikipedia:

So if we're basing on your guess... the Titans are assuming that they had the necessary votes last night? Hmmm.

If the deadline alteration last night was a bad guy's doing... it's safe to assume that the Titans were able to put their votes in for the day.

We would need to look more into the unrevealed and unvouched-for players... specifically those who were able to put in their votes yesterday if it were the case.

Telle - Render (1127), Lathum (1141), Chief RUm (1157)
Hoopsguy - St.cronin (946), Neon_Chaos (1063)
arlington colt - Racer (1076) Raiders Army (1091)
Chief Rum - Anxiety (1028), Ardent Enthusiast (1066), Arlington Colt (1098)

By just cross-referencing Lathum's list... here are the players who are part of the unrevealed/unvouched for, and were able to put in their votes last night.

[hoopsguy]

I would really like to hear from Raiders Army at this point to hear more about his trusted list. If we can build off of each of these lists then I think we are in a really strong position right now.

Neon, note that the three names you highlighted there each had zero votes yesterday at the time of the deadline.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

I would really like to hear from Raiders Army at this point to hear more about his trusted list. If we can build off of each of these lists then I think we are in a really strong position right now.

Neon, note that the three names you highlighted there each had zero votes yesterday at the time of the deadline.

Exactly.

Maybe I'm overthinking it... but maybe the Titans didn't need to get any "correct" vote count... because noone was in danger of being lynched.

I also would like to hear from RA, as to why I'm trusted.

[DaddyTorgo]

nice thinking hoops.

so we have a "visitor" that visited lathum, and apollo scanning from afar. doesn't really add up IMO.

lathum...is the person who "visited" you dead or alive at this juncture? trying to understand what happened to you versus what happened to Telle. I find it doubtful that you're both telling the truth.

[Telle]

Everyone "knew" that I had all my votes on Schmidty.. I posted as such when I voted for him. But even I didn't think that was going to be enough to save my butt last night.. RendeR had said that he had used 2 votes each day previous to that, and so I really thought that he would have used at least that last night. And maybe he even did and I just won the tie breaker?

If there's only two titans left then they're most likely both amongst those who voted. But if there's three.. I could see a case for one purposely not voting before the early deadline in order to attempt to gain trust.

[st.cronin]

How do we know a Titan, or any player, was behind the early deadline? It could have been something Alan programmed behind the scenes, that if some combination of things happened, the next day ends early.

[Telle]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

How do we know a Titan, or any player, was behind the early deadline? It could have been something Alan programmed behind the scenes, that if some combination of things happened, the next day ends early.

Maybe the Triton sighting the day before signaled it? I dunno.. grasping at straws..

[hoopsguy]

Cronin, do you really think that is the most plausible explanation?

Or does it make more sense that in a game where every player has some kind of powers, that this was a player activating their power?

If you accept the first premise (it was player-activated) then would you still suggest that it is an Olympian if it is not Apollo?

[PurdueBrad]

I'm putting my placeholder out now, just in case. I'm picking one of the people that has been pinging my radar, albeit not super-strong. Oh, and in case you were wondering, it'll only be one point because I'm in the penalty box today.

vote St. Cronin

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by Telle

Maybe the Triton sighting the day before signaled it? I dunno.. grasping at straws..

Again, Wikipedia is your friend:

Triton is a mythological Greek god, the messenger of the deep. He is the son of Poseidon, god of the sea, and Amphitrite, goddess of the sea. He is usually represented as a merman, having the upper body of a human and the tail of a fish.

Like his father, he carried a trident. However, Triton's special attribute was a twisted conch shell, on which he blew like a trumpet to calm or raise the waves. Its sound was so terrible, that when loudly blown, it put the giants to flight, who imagined it to be the roar of a mighty wild beast (Hyginus, Poet. astronom. ii. 23).

I would argue that Hyperion sounds a lot more likely to create that event than Triton.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Cronin, do you really think that is the most plausible explanation?

Or does it make more sense that in a game where every player has some kind of powers, that this was a player activating their power?

If you accept the first premise (it was player-activated) then would you still suggest that it is an Olympian if it is not Apollo?

I think early deadline being a player ability is the least plausible explanation. Just my own $.02.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Oh, and in case you were wondering, it'll only be one point because I'm in the penalty box today.

This is a good point. I think we are going to have to build a fair amount of consensus on our pick for today because the Titans are likely to have points for power-voting where a number of Olympians (me included) will not.

Again, I want discussion on the merits of this idea but this seems pretty straight-forward to me if you accept that the Titans controlled the deadline last night.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Anxiety, you said that you visited someone. By this visit, can you confirm that the person you visited is a good guy? And what are the reasons that you feel that st.cronin is good as well?

Also, ArlingtonColt, is the weapon you're making ready?

No I cannot confirm that they are a good guy. They get the nightly message of success, not me.

Last night, I had an interaction with st. cronin due to my ability, and the pm description of st cronin led me to beleive that I know his role, and if correct, he would not be a titan. My knowlegde of Greek mythology is decent, but not amazing, so its possible I could be wrong, but I'm confident enough in my beleif that I mention it here.

[hoopsguy]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I think early deadline being a player ability is the least plausible explanation. Just my own $.02.

Guess we'll find out in the post-game. But we are fundamentally opposed on this point. In a game where everyone has unique powers, I just don't understand how you would hold this viewpoint. My thoughts are about the intent of the player, not if it was moderator vs player action.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

I think early deadline being a player ability is the least plausible explanation. Just my own $.02.

So far, no event has happened without a player influencing it in some way or another. And it doesn't seem that AlanT would just change the deadline on Day 3 for no reason whatsover if only to screw with people.

[st.cronin]

Note that I don't think a player did not influence the event. I just don't believe anybody sent a pm to Alan that said "lets make deadline end 40 minutes early today." I think its entirely possible that the player who influenced the event was caught with their pants down.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

lathum...is the person who "visited" you dead or alive at this juncture? trying to understand what happened to you versus what happened to Telle. I find it doubtful that you're both telling the truth.

alive.

and if they want to come forward and have me vouch for them now is the time since I will be spotty for the weekend.

[Abe Sargent]

Need to get a vote out there for now, since we saw what happened yesterday.

Nothing's changed from this vote:

Vote Chief Rum

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Lathum

alive.

and if they want to come forward and have me vouch for them now is the time since I will be spotty for the weekend.

Good point. I'll come forward now.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Anxiety

Good point. I'll come forward now.

it wasn't you.

[DaddyTorgo]

ooooh!!! interesting twist!!!!

[DaddyTorgo]

lunch. back later