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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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04-22-2009, 09:37 AM | #1301 | |
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I'm sure there was some motiviation to determine any connection, but that wasn't even close to the primary reasoning behind it. Anyone who attempts to imply that was the main purpose is out of their gourd. |
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04-22-2009, 09:39 AM | #1302 |
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so you can determine the Primary, Secondary, and tertiary reasonings!? Holy shit.
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04-22-2009, 09:40 AM | #1303 | |
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Ah, the wounded cry of a failed MBBF assertion.
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04-22-2009, 09:55 AM | #1304 |
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Would really like to see more than just words from the White House concerning the Pakistani peace agreement with the Taliban. I'm not sure how much of an ally Pakistan is to us anymore (or if they ever were). News that the Taliban has taken more control in NW Afghanistan is pretty concerning.........
FOXNews.com - Taliban Tighten Their Grip on Pakistan's Northwest - International News | News of the World | Middle East News | Europe News |
04-22-2009, 10:01 AM | #1305 |
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There was nothing 'failed' about it. I have no doubt that intelligence likely probed for connections to several Middle East countries, including Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. But I also have no doubt that much of the motivation was to avoid any future attacks on our soil or interests. |
04-22-2009, 10:12 AM | #1306 | |
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So many things wrong it's hard to know where to start.
1) Why release these memos? From what I've read the memos were released due to an ACLU lawsuit. Nobody at the White House made a decision to release only those memos incriminating to Bush. You can argue that they should release info not a part of the lawsuit, but there is a very clear reason why these memos were released. 2) Waterboarding stopped the Library Tower attack? From Tim Noah: Quote:
3) This information will allow terrorists to prep for their interrogation. CIA agents who have been waterboarded as part of their training last an average of 14 seconds. There is no known way of resisting waterboarding. Further, all of these techniques have been public knowledge for years. Hell there are plenty of photographs floating around for most of these techniques.
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04-22-2009, 10:12 AM | #1307 |
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Historically, the use of torture has been used to make someone being tortured say what the interrogators want them to say. There wasn't some sort of quantum leap in torture tactics in 2002 that increased the reliability and accuracy of information gained during torture. It is clear that during the build up to the invasion of Iraq that the administration was looking for any and all evidence to support their positions for invasion.
If they were simply looking for information on Al-Qaeda tactics and future plans, there are much more effective and accurate means of eliciting information than waterboarding, keeping someone awake for days on end, or putting them in a sack and slamming the sack into the wall. You use those methods when you want a pre-determined answer to the question.
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04-22-2009, 10:15 AM | #1308 |
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is he an ex-employee, this Noah guy? And What about this Townsend fellow? also an ex-employee? The disgruntledness must be overwhelming!
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04-22-2009, 10:16 AM | #1309 |
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BTW, I am aware that any counterpoints to MBBF fall on deaf ears and this thread, along with the election thread are an effort in futility. MBBF may as well torture us to get the information he already wants and than discard the rest.....it almost seems like he does.
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04-22-2009, 10:22 AM | #1310 | |
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I'd agree at some level, though not completely. While you elicit a response, the tough part still remains figuring out if the info given was even reliable. I'm sure that some of it is good info while other parts may be to just stop the torture. |
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04-22-2009, 10:29 AM | #1311 | |
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Quote:
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04-22-2009, 11:04 AM | #1312 | |
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If it's being condemned as torture and shouldn't be done, then what does it matter? "Hey, guys, here's a list of what we aren't going to do because it's torture". It's not like we're sending them a list of what we *are* going to do. SI
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04-22-2009, 01:01 PM | #1313 | |
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pointless but here you go MBBF:
Points the finger all the way to the top, to Rumsfeld, was reverse engineered from processes we deemed torture when done by foreign interrogators, and were used to get false confessions by the Chiness who created many of the techniques we copied Quote:
I have no doubt you dont care.
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04-22-2009, 01:30 PM | #1314 | |
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Pretty big assumption built into the conclusion of that article. Just because the Chinese used those techniques to achieve a false confession does not mean that is the only result that can be achieved from those techniques. An argument built on the assumption that only false information can come from torture is pretty questionable. There's definitely a lot of information that can be gathered from these techniques, despite the author's attempt to lead the reader to believe otherwise. As far as the rest of the information, it's mostly a rehash of what we already knew. There were a lot of people who voiced concerns as to whether or not the techniques were legal. That's been reported numerous times. That doesn't change what is obviously a situation where the Obama Administration is using this situation for political gain. In addition, they are hindering future efforts by the intelligence agency members to keep our country safe by introducing concerns as to whether they might face prosecution for many of the things that occur behind the scenes to keep our citizens safe. The negligence of some should not compromise the safety of all. |
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04-22-2009, 01:33 PM | #1315 | |
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I'm pretty sure that Obama has said that any interrogator who was following policy which may have been illegally implemented will not be investigated, while those that implemented the policy might.
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04-22-2009, 02:37 PM | #1316 | |
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These are the same guys that said Saddam had WMDs, right? |
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04-22-2009, 02:53 PM | #1317 | |
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What, no mention that the Library Tower claim is bullshit?
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04-22-2009, 03:01 PM | #1318 |
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I don't think Clinton and his staff were involved here
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04-22-2009, 03:09 PM | #1319 | |
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You mean torture. Use English dammit. |
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04-22-2009, 03:58 PM | #1320 |
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It's funny how many torture experts have appeared on the intertubes in the last week or so.
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04-22-2009, 04:18 PM | #1321 |
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04-22-2009, 04:26 PM | #1322 | |
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Yeah, try to do better, MBBF. http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/ Quote:
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04-22-2009, 05:25 PM | #1323 | |
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True, torture is designed for that. But what the interogators here are after is new information. They are and have been trying to fight a war against actual bad guys and they need information. Not pretend information. That is why it is my belief that effective interogation has never used torture. Do I believe we've had fairly harsh torture? Yes. Do I believe it's possible for the individual to cross the line? Yes. Do I believe harsh interogation tactics havebeen used widely enough and accepted by enough leadership to blatantly call all US interogations as "torture"? Absolutely not. I disagree completely with the notion that all interogation tactics are worthy of being labelled "torture". |
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04-22-2009, 05:30 PM | #1324 | |
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I agree with that, but no one here is making that argument.
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 04-22-2009 at 05:32 PM. |
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04-22-2009, 05:43 PM | #1325 |
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Yeah, Dutch, who are you disagreeing with?
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04-22-2009, 08:33 PM | #1326 |
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heh. I don't believe we have tortured anybody (Abu Graib debacle excluded) and thought cartman was calling our interogation tactics(in general)--'torture'. I guess I jumped the gun after reading that first line. FWIW, I'm glad you don't think that way, cartman.
Last edited by Dutch : 04-22-2009 at 08:34 PM. |
04-22-2009, 09:03 PM | #1327 |
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We waterboarded in Gitmo and pretty much everyone agrees that that was torture. {shrug}
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04-22-2009, 09:30 PM | #1328 |
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This has truly become a thread with something for everyone (or it could be argued, a thread for a select few who like to argue).
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04-22-2009, 09:45 PM | #1329 |
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Everything done at Abu Ghraib has been done elsewhere, we just don't have as many pictures. If you believe that was torture there's no way you believe nothing else has been.
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04-22-2009, 10:09 PM | #1330 | ||
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I think your beef is with Cheney. Quote:
Last edited by Dutch : 04-22-2009 at 10:10 PM. |
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04-23-2009, 07:43 AM | #1331 |
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Amen Shep Smith.
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04-23-2009, 07:59 AM | #1332 |
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Call it whatever you want. I have no problem with waterboarding or the other interrogation tactics approved by the previous administration. I have a lot of problems with some of the policies under Bush, but I'm one of their biggest supporters when it comes to interrogation. I'm not going to sugar-coat what's done. It's simple really. They stop threatening my country's welfare and we'll stop doing the things that need to be done to keep our country safe that they don't particularly like. Last edited by Mizzou B-ball fan : 04-23-2009 at 08:01 AM. |
04-23-2009, 08:39 AM | #1333 |
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and finally a statement out of MBBF I can respect. Now stop trying to convince everyone that A. it isnt torture, B. That it didnt happen, C. that somehow under the Bush administration the statistics changed and most of the info. that was garnered from torture wasn't false information given in an effort to stop said torture from continuing or D. that it stopped an impending attack. Please continue down the path of, Im a supporter of torture, it happened, Im glad it did, and I feel safer for it. At least you can stand by an opinion.
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04-23-2009, 08:40 AM | #1334 |
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04-23-2009, 08:48 AM | #1335 |
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Here is an interesting editorial from the NYT today from a former FBI interrogator.
Op-Ed Contributor - My Tortured Decision - NYTimes.com
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04-23-2009, 08:56 AM | #1336 | |
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In regards to A, I don't care what you call it. Obama doesn't allow anyone on his administration to use the term 'War on Terror', but that doesn't change what's happening. In regards to B, I never claimed that the interrogation tactics didn't happen. I'm assuming you're confusing me with another poster. In regards to C, I disagree that most of it was false information but it's impossible to argue firmly one way or another as we have don't have the total picture laid before us, which is just fine by me. As long as the mainland and our interests abroad remain as safe as possible, I won't care to be right or wrong. My personal concern is that some moves by the Obama administration are removing some safeguards, but I suppose no one cares as long as they aren't the victims of an attack. As long as no attacks occur, especially here at home, he'll be considered to have done a good job, though most of the credit should go to the people behind the scenes that never get the credit they deserve for risking their life for our safety. In regards to D, the timeline presented by KWhit is pretty good. There could be a case that claim is untrue. |
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04-23-2009, 08:58 AM | #1337 | |
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Worded very indirectly, but is this MBBF admitting he was wrong?
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04-23-2009, 09:01 AM | #1338 |
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04-23-2009, 09:15 AM | #1339 |
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he did use the word "could".
And dont let a history of studies regarding information derived via torture stop ya.
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04-23-2009, 09:18 AM | #1340 |
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04-23-2009, 12:34 PM | #1341 | ||||||||
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Hrm, looks like I do have to repost this:
Torture doesn't work. It just makes those wanting vengeance feel better. General David H. Petraeus: Quote:
Lieutenant General John Kimmons (Army Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, 2006): Quote:
Robert Baer, former CIA Case Officer: Quote:
Vincent Cannistraro, 27 veteran with the CIA, including leading clandestine units: Quote:
Merle Pribbenow (CIA): Quote:
Frank Snepp (CIA): Quote:
Jack Cloonan, FBI Special Agent (full article in link, description/summary below): Quote:
Brigadier General David R. Irvine (Retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School): Quote:
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04-23-2009, 12:43 PM | #1342 | |
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Some would say that the United States should be above countries like Egypt and Sudan when it comes to treatment of prisoners. |
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04-23-2009, 12:53 PM | #1343 | |
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There's no 'should be' about it. Even under the Bush policies, we're still well clear of those countries in that regard (i.e. their techniques are much worse). I don't have a problem with people debating the need for these techniques. I have a big problem with people who like to pretend that our form of torture is even remotely similar to other countries like the ones you mention. It's not. Last edited by Mizzou B-ball fan : 04-23-2009 at 12:53 PM. |
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04-23-2009, 12:56 PM | #1344 | |
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Torture is torture in my book. You either do it or you don't. |
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04-23-2009, 12:56 PM | #1345 |
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Maybe not in scope, but the details are very much in line with what some of the worst regimes of the past 100 years did. There isn't a whole lot of difference between what McCain went through and what was "legalized" for the CIA.
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04-23-2009, 12:58 PM | #1346 |
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04-23-2009, 01:02 PM | #1347 |
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I'm with flere on this: techniques that disorient that subject do work because they reduce the resistance to telling the truth, but inflicting pain causes them to tell you what they think you want to hear.
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04-23-2009, 02:15 PM | #1348 | |
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Interesting............ 1. I'm pretty sure that the U.S. policy does not include sticking a bayonette into a prisoner as soon as you capture him. 2. I'm also pretty sure that the U.S. policy allows for medical treatment of any prisoner injuries at the earliest opportunity, regardless of who they are. 3. The U.S. policy also does not allow the neglect of a prisoner during that medical care which could/would cause them to lose 50+ pounds. 4. The U.S. policy also does not consist of taking an injured prisoner out of a hospital ward for interrogations several times a day. 5. In addition, I'm pretty sure that the U.S. policy does not allow the striking of a prisoner during interrogation, especially every two hours for weeks at a time. 6. The U.S. policy does not allow a prisoner to be shackeled by the neck, hands, and feet and placed in a 4 x 4 bamboo cage in the middle of the jungle with limited food, to the point where you lose the ability to move your legs. 7. The U.S. policy does not allow a person to only be bathed once a month. 8. The U.S. policy does not allow neglect to the point of no toilet facilities being available to the prisoner. 9. U.S. policy does not allow the captor to let a prisoner with dysentary go 1 1/2 years without treatment. 10. U.S. policy does not allow 10 guards to simulaneously beat one prisoner. 11. U.S. policy does not allow the removal of fingernails or any body parts. 12. U.S. policy does not allow the captor to burn their prisoners in any way. 13. U.S. policy does not allow the captors to beat a prisoner to death after any escape attempt. 14. U.S. policy does not allow a captor to jump on a prisoner's knee over and over until it breaks in multiple places with no medical treatment afterwards for the injury. Just a few small deviations between the treatment of those prisoners. I can see how you'd consider those scenarios to be roughly the same. If you'd like to familiarize yourself further with the treatment of Senator McCain, you can find the full story here: John McCain, Prisoner of War: A First-Person Account - US News and World Report |
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04-23-2009, 02:29 PM | #1349 |
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Rough week for the administration. In addition to the flip-flop on whether they would or would not allow possible charges against Bush administration officials, it has now come to light that many high ranking Democrat leaders and their Republican counterparts were briefed on the interrogation tactics being used as early as 2002. None of the people involved voiced any concerns over the tactics, including Speaker Pelosi. Republicans are asking that all briefing information be made public.
Republicans Claim Top Lawmakers Were in the Loop on Interrogations - First 100 Days of Presidency - Politics FOXNews.com Hopefully President Obama will hold all of his former Congressional peers accountable for their lack of action when these techniques were reported to them by the administration in a meeting nearly 7 years ago. I'd hate to know that all of this outrage was nothing more than political grandstanding as I had previously indicated. |
04-23-2009, 02:31 PM | #1350 |
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Well every week is going to be considered "rough" by your standards. I highly doubt many people care about this stuff at this time. The economy is the only thing that matters and he'll ultimately be judged on that in 4 years, not some meaningless partisian bickering. With the mistake of Iraq, it's going to be pretty tough for Republicans to have any credibility on foreign policy for awhile now.
Last edited by RainMaker : 04-23-2009 at 02:32 PM. |
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