The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[larrymcg421]

Indiana GOP blinks...

Indiana kills 'right-to-work' bill - Jennifer Epstein - POLITICO.com

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Don't act like this is something new and horrible from the Dems. This has a long and rich history. I can think of one respected lawmaker, who saw that a key vote was going to go against them, and tried to hide in the State Senate's change room.. when that didn't work, he tried leaving, only to find the doors locked, but this plucky "representative of the people" fled the building by the expedient of jumping out of a second story window and fleeing the premises.

This scofflaw and horrible person?

Abraham Lincoln.

(Also, Walker's currently losing support, I'm hopeful that he's the one who folds and not theunions)

I understand, and hate these tactics from either side. I'm just wondering about it in this particular instance, where it seems like it can easily backfire if work can't get done, budget can't get passed, and all these workers the Dems are worried about are out of work until a budget bill can get passed.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Why Isn't Wall Street in Jail? | Rolling Stone Politics

As a die-hard conservative republican, I agree. Worst thing that came out of this recession is the folks who put us there got away scot-free with no real ramifications for all the money they made.

And all these attempts to keep money flowing by reducing interest rates just mean that we have a continuation of the post-9/11 disincentive to save, since the Feds are giving these folks free money, there's no reason for them to pay the rest of us for the use of ours.

I hate it all.

[SirFozzie]

Hell, there was stories recently that the top companies are sitting on record amounts of money that isn't doing anyone any good. Find a way to encourage them to reinvest it, or somehow get it back into circulation. I don't know how to do it, mind you, any attempt to get it out via taxes is doomed, and I'm sure the preferred method of using it (acquiring new companies, etcetera) will cause the same out-of-control financial engine that threw us into this current recession.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Hell, there was stories recently that the top companies are sitting on record amounts of money that isn't doing anyone any good. Find a way to encourage them to reinvest it, or somehow get it back into circulation.

The American Energy Independence Initiative would be a nice start.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

I understand, and hate these tactics from either side. I'm just wondering about it in this particular instance, where it seems like it can easily backfire if work can't get done, budget can't get passed, and all these workers the Dems are worried about are out of work until a budget bill can get passed.

If you look at polling it's pretty clear people would blame Walker and the GOP. The unions are willing to make all the financial sacrifices but they aren't willing to give up collective bargaining. That message seems to be getting across and it makes Walker and the GOP look worse each day.

Union voters are only slightly pro-Dem. This is a big losing issue for the GOP and that's why Daniels in IN and Scott in FL want no part of it.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Why Isn't Wall Street in Jail? | Rolling Stone Politics

Sort of sad that more people don't care about this.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

As a die-hard conservative republican, I agree. Worst thing that came out of this recession is the folks who put us there got away scot-free with no real ramifications for all the money they made.

And all these attempts to keep money flowing by reducing interest rates just mean that we have a continuation of the post-9/11 disincentive to save, since the Feds are giving these folks free money, there's no reason for them to pay the rest of us for the use of ours.

I hate it all.

Bipartisan agreement here.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

If you look at polling it's pretty clear people would blame Walker and the GOP. The unions are willing to make all the financial sacrifices but they aren't willing to give up collective bargaining. That message seems to be getting across and it makes Walker and the GOP look worse each day.

Union voters are only slightly pro-Dem. This is a big losing issue for the GOP and that's why Daniels in IN and Scott in FL want no part of it.

And Walker has already said a compromise proposal by my GOP State Senator is still not acceptable.

What is has done is mobilize a lot of apathetic union people. My ex-roommate is a union electrician that has never voted in his life and he was down at the Capitol yesterday protesting. Sure, it's the fault of people like him that we've got an ass hole like Scott Walker in there.

Oh did I ever mention how Walker put something into the budget repair bill where he gets the right to sell Wisconsin public utility companies without soliciting bids? Yeah..... the Koch brothers already have job openings posted for utilities that they don't even own yet in Wisconsin.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Sort of sad that more people don't care about this.

Yeah...nobody cares because there is no partisan points to be scored.

Repubs & Dems alike are equally crooked & neither side has a real claim to integrity on this issue.

[SirFozzie]

Speaking of Indiana: I can't fault the state AG's office for their reaction to some very stupid statements made by a Deputy AG, I just wonder how some of his comments didn't surface before now and if they did, why he wasn't fired before:

Indiana Official: "Use Live Ammunition" Against Wisconsin Protesters | Mother Jones

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Yeah...nobody cares because there is no partisan points to be scored.

Repubs & Dems alike are equally crooked & neither side has a real claim to integrity on this issue.

Partisians are the bane of this country. Politics as sport for these people.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Speaking of Indiana: I can't fault the state AG's office for their reaction to some very stupid statements made by a Deputy AG, I just wonder how some of his comments didn't surface before now and if they did, why he wasn't fired before:

Indiana Official: "Use Live Ammunition" Against Wisconsin Protesters | Mother Jones

When did JiMGA move to Indiana and become Deputy AG?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by lungs

Oh did I ever mention how Walker put something into the budget repair bill where he gets the right to sell Wisconsin public utility companies without soliciting bids? Yeah..... the Koch brothers already have job openings posted for utilities that they don't even own yet in Wisconsin.

Lovely. What a fucking sleezeball.

[JPhillips]

How is the Koch fake phone call playing in WI?

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by lungs

When did JiMGA move to Indiana and become Deputy AG?

DeputyAGinMiddleIN?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

DeputyAGinMiddleIN?

Now that's just confusing.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

How is the Koch fake phone call playing in WI?

It's making noise.... the spin machine of course says there is nothing new here. But I think the phone call makes it pretty clear that this isn't a budget balancing bill more than it is a union busting bill.

That.... and how the fuck did he get tricked like that? On the other hand, if he was TRULY in the Koch Brothers pocket, you'd think he'd know what they sounded like on the phone.


edit to add: Also Walker considered planting trouble makers amongst the protesters.

[Galaxy]

I really didn't hear much in terms of Walker giving anything up that he wasn't saying anything publicly (wasn't the best thing, but it wasn't an expose). Sounds like "Koch" was trying to bait him, but Walker didn't bite.

[JPhillips]

I think he gave up his plan to trick the Dems into creating a quorum, but that's not earth shattering. The bigger issue is that it both makes Walker and staff look foolish and completely in the pockets of big money men.

Now that corporate money is unlimited, I wonder how long we'll have to wait before we get this century's Teapot Dome?

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Obama administrations drops defense of DOMA.

Hopefully this is a sign of things to come. Perhaps the recent actions in Wisconsin can energize Democrats to finally start standing up for their principles.

I find this interesting, not because I care one way or the other about the act, but because when i worked for the state of Florida, we had a similar issue with a law our administration did not want to continue to support in a fight over its Constitutionality, and we conducted a thorough and lengthy bit of research on the issue and determined we were bound to uphold the Constitutionality of the law.

I assume they have made the political decision that any points scored for publicly announcing this will outweigh any negative press that might come from a legal challenge to force them to act in accordance with their duties under the Constitution.

[larrymcg421]

That's interesting. I wonder how the relevant state law is worded, but what doesn't make sense to me in that case, is if you believe the law is unconstitutional, then that trumps state law (and federal law in Obama's case). For example, in California, they were not able to force Gov Arnold or AG Jerry Brown to defend Prop 8.

[panerd]

Rand Paul on Letterman tonight. I think he speaks well to Libertarian crowds and/or Libertarian leaning interviewers. I also think he has a really quick wit. We will see how this plays out in front of a national audience with a more liberal interviewer (don't get me wrong I love Letterman). I know a lot of people who have never seen him or his dad speak already "know" he a is kook because Fox News and CNN told them so. Watch tonight and make your own judgements. Hell I could end up not liking him again!


(I am torn on how I feel about Rand. Loved him when he was first campaigning, mainly due to dad. Started to not like him when he started going more mainstream Republican with the warmongering. Started to like him again when the sabatage attempts by the mass media failed. And am really a fan of his $500 billion dollar spending cut proposal that actually has the balls to take on the military industrial complex.)

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Why Isn't Wall Street in Jail? | Rolling Stone Politics

Let's see- Rolling Stone and about the bailout. It must be Matt Taibbi so it's definitely time to read it. Again, scary that the best reporter on the financial meltdown is a reporter for Rolling Stone. And I'm sure my faith in humanity will fall another notch or two.

SI

[molson]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I find this interesting, not because I care one way or the other about the act, but because when i worked for the state of Florida, we had a similar issue with a law our administration did not want to continue to support in a fight over its Constitutionality, and we conducted a thorough and lengthy bit of research on the issue and determined we were bound to uphold the Constitutionality of the law.

I assume they have made the political decision that any points scored for publicly announcing this will outweigh any negative press that might come from a legal challenge to force them to act in accordance with their duties under the Constitution.

This was my first reaction, but then after looking into it, I think I understand the distinction. The executive branch is required to follow and enforce federal law, but it's not actually required to defend it from constitutional attack. Congress can actually have their own lawyers defend their laws - so the move is really just political. It will just be different lawyers handling the defense.

[sterlingice]

Since this seems to be our omnibus politics thread, I LOL'd:

Embarrassed Republicans Admit They've Been Thinking Of Eisenhower Whole Time They've Been Praising Reagan | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

SI

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Since this seems to be our omnibus politics thread, I LOL'd:

Embarrassed Republicans Admit They've Been Thinking Of Eisenhower Whole Time They've Been Praising Reagan | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

SI

It's funny cause it's true.

[Edward64]

I was in Belgium this past week. Nothing specific on Obama but some interesting (to me) stuff -

-- Most English speaking channels were multiple BBC channels, some other news channel, and another channel that showed shows (e.g. Nip Tuck). Most of the news were talking about the unrest in Libya.

-- The "other news channel" really irritated me - in the sections I saw, it was somewhat anti-american. They had a special about the prevalence of Ku Klux Klan in current day, the racial tensions etc., and overblown it without the proper context. There were other "news" that talked about American this-and-that.

-- The newspapers were talking about EU's failed "neighborhood policy" where money/aid was spent in these northern African countries and Tunisia and Egypt ranked high in its ranking ... meaning that there was an obvious flaw in their ranking system.

-- Lots of concern in Italy for their import/export relationship with Libya and the refugees that are sailing to southern Italy.

-- It was good not hear about any failed American policies in Africa, mostly europeans assessing how they've supported oppression and are late to the game in supporting the uprisings.

[rowech]

Unbelievable what happened in Ohio today. Senate Bill 5 was not going to make it to the senate floor because of a Republican refusing to vote yes. It would have ended in a 6-6 tie. So what happens? He's removed, vote taken, through to the senate. Nothing short of fascism because the bill wasn't going to make it to the floor as it's written. This thing is really unbelievable when you sit down to read it all. Ohio will become a pisshole.

[JPhillips]

The Ohio GOP actually removed two guys from that committee to get it passed and then rushed it to the floor.

Funny, I'm so old I remember when a year's worth of hearings, town halls, and negotiations followed by multiple majority votes was totalitarianism.

[gstelmack]

And North Carolina has a lottery because they waited until 2 key opponents were out of town during a session that was not supposed to involve a vote, they took the vote, passed it, and the head of the Senate at the time is now in jail for corruption. But we still have the lottery...

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by rowech

Unbelievable what happened in Ohio today. Senate Bill 5 was not going to make it to the senate floor because of a Republican refusing to vote yes. It would have ended in a 6-6 tie. So what happens? He's removed, vote taken, through to the senate.

Was his removal within the rules of the body?

[Edward64]

FWIW, Jason Bourne's take on Obama.

Matt Damon: Not a fan of Obama - CNN.com

When CNN's Piers Morgan asked actor Matt Damon if he was happy with the way President Barack Obama has been running the country and if Damon was "a fan" of the president, Damon answered "no."

"He (Obama) misinterpreted his mandate," said Damon. "He's doubled down on a lot of things."

"In his State of the Union he didn't even say the word 'poverty,' " said Damon. "You've got millions of people languishing in it." Damon, who backed the Obama campaign in 2008, said he appreciates that the president is a "deep thinker." The actor called Obama brilliant, but said he "definitely wanted more."

When questioned about what he'd do about Afghanistan, Damon said, "I don't think the mission there has been very well articulated. And I think it would help to kind of reframe the way we're thinking about being there and why we're there."

Damon also said there has not been a meaningful reform of Wall Street. He said he believes that is "dangerous" and "shameful" and that the financial crisis is "just going to happen again," because "they don't make anything. They don't build anything."

[Edward64]

I don't get us contemplating no-fly zones for Libya. The benefit vs cost/risk doesn't seem to be there. If we want to help, help on the border of Tunisia or Egypt, send food, tents etc. Interesting to note Hillary vs Gates power struggle - wonder who really has Obama's ear.

Obama Says Qaddafi ‘Must Leave’ Libya Now - NYTimes.com

Even limited options, like a no-flight-zone intended to prevent Libyan planes from shooting at their own people, are drawing opposition from some European allies, and would be unlikely to win the approval of the United Nations Security Council.

Mr. Obama’s top national security advisers have diverged in public, with Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton sounding more receptive to a no-flight zone than Mr. Gates. Testifying before the House Foreign Affairs Committee on Tuesday, she said that “there are arguments that would favor it, questions that would be raised about, but it is under active consideration.”

In his testimony before the House Appropriations Committee, Mr. Gates said, “Let’s just call a spade a spade,” before going on to describe how a no-flight zone would involve destroying Libya’s air defense systems so that American planes could fly without fear of being shot down.

[molson]

Originally Posted by Edward64

FWIW, Jason Bourne's take on Obama.

He used the far left during his campaign for momentum purposes knowing full well he'd be a moderate president. I guess every presidential candidate kind of has to do this.

[JediKooter]

So Huckabee just keeps running his flappers. Hey Mikey, Natalie Portman isn't single. She's engaged you fucking moron.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JediKooter

So Huckabee just keeps running his flappers. Hey Mikey, Natalie Portman isn't single. She's engaged you fucking moron.

I think that's his point. She's pregnant and not yet married.

[Edward64]

Interesting Friedman column today in the AJC.

This Is Just The Start - NYTimes.com

Future historians will long puzzle over how the self-immolation of a Tunisian street vendor, Mohamed Bouazizi, in protest over the confiscation of his fruit stand, managed to trigger popular uprisings across the Arab/Muslim world. We know the big causes — tyranny, rising food prices, youth unemployment and social media. But since being in Egypt, I’ve been putting together my own back-of-the-envelope guess list of what I’d call the “not-so-obvious forces” that fed this mass revolt. Here it is:

THE OBAMA FACTOR Americans have never fully appreciated what a radical thing we did — in the eyes of the rest of the world — in electing an African-American with the middle name Hussein as president. I’m convinced that listening to Obama’s 2009 Cairo speech — not the words, but the man — were more than a few young Arabs who were saying to themselves: “Hmmm, let’s see. He’s young. I’m young. He’s dark-skinned. I’m dark-skinned. His middle name is Hussein. My name is Hussein. His grandfather is a Muslim. My grandfather is a Muslim. He is president of the United States. And I’m an unemployed young Arab with no vote and no voice in my future.” I’d put that in my mix of forces fueling these revolts.

Who knows but it would be interesting to do a post mortem and interview regular folks to see if this was even a factor.

[rowech]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Interesting Friedman column today in the AJC.

This Is Just The Start - NYTimes.com


Who knows but it would be interesting to do a post mortem and interview regular folks to see if this was even a factor.

Also might have to consider that they've looked at Iraq and seen what can happen and started to think they wanted it for themselves. Then some credit would have to go back to Bush.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by rowech

Also might have to consider that they've looked at Iraq and seen what can happen and started to think they wanted it for themselves. Then some credit would have to go back to Bush.

I'm surprised that anyone would miss that connection. People said Dubya was crazy for thinking he could build a democratic Iraq or in any Muslim country for that matter. It took some time, but it's working in Iraq and people are taking matters into their own hands. Obama certainly continued to push the Bush doctrine, but the roots of these movements go back to what Bush did.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

If you all really believe Bush should get credit for this, then do you favor us sending in troops to Libya?

Crediting Bush for this is as silly as crediting Obama's election. This is about 20th century governments trying to hold power in a 21st century world.

[Mizzou B-ball fan]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

If you all really believe Bush should get credit for this, then do you favor us sending in troops to Libya?

Crediting Bush for this is as silly as crediting Obama's election. This is about 20th century governments trying to hold power in a 21st century world.

Two different arguments there. The end result didn't justify everything that was done in regards to Iraq. But there's little question that a democratic Iraq that is working surprisingly well is an inspiration to some of these people. Good for the rest of these people that they took that idea and ran with it.

[lungs]

Iraq has been having plenty of protests and deaths the past few weeks too.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Two different arguments there. The end result didn't justify everything that was done in regards to Iraq. But there's little question that a democratic Iraq that is working surprisingly well is an inspiration to some of these people. Good for the rest of these people that they took that idea and ran with it.

Yup - Iraq bastion of peace and democracy .... no hint of a continued war going on there at all still, wait no ....

http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/

PS - Yes its a blog, but the links are mainly to respectable sites, ie. Reuters, reputable newspapers etc.

[Dutch]

We took out Saddam Hussein because he was screwing with our economy, that's a good enough reason for me...I hate high gas prices afterall. So what's in it for me to send troops into Libya? The people there are doing a decent enough job of overthrowing their government, why ruin the role of President Obama as the apologist?

There is no doubt that Iraq has an influence on the other repressive regimes of the middle east. Nobody else thought this was even possible.

I agree that middle eastern turmoil was inevitable with these 20th century dictators, but I would argue that Iraq's stability and promise acted as an accelerator.

The middle east is a copy-cat league afterall.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Yup - Iraq bastion of peace and democracy .... no hint of a continued war going on there at all still, wait no ....

http://warnewstoday.blogspot.com/

PS - Yes its a blog, but the links are mainly to respectable sites, ie. Reuters, reputable newspapers etc.

I don't think MB is saying its perfect. Its pretty clear to me its much better than its been since the invasion (or did I miss a context to your comment?).

Now if your argument is that it was better prior to the invasion to now ... that's a different discussion.

[JPhillips]

Are we so arrogant that we need any revolution to be a direct result of American influence?

and Dutch: Screwing with the economy? Really? That' what the Iraq war was about? Wanna bet if I did a forum search on screwing with the economy I wouldn't find any hits in the lead in to the Iraq War?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I don't think MB is saying its perfect. Its pretty clear to me its much better than its been since the invasion (or did I miss a context to your comment?).

I think its impossible for us to judge as 'outsiders' whether its better than before the invasion.

Before the invasion they had a dictator in charge, lots of oppression and random victimisation but a relatively stable society with a reasonably decent infrastructure and suchlike in place.

Now they have an unstable military supported democracy with ongoing gun battles as a regular occurrence and a fractured infrastructure as much was wrecked during the invasion.

Which is better? - personally I'm not in a place to judge and wouldn't want to live there under either scenario .... however my glasses aren't rose-tinted enough to say that things are far better now than before.

(ask again in 20 years time and we'll see how things stand - if the country hasn't devolved into another dictatorship (or worse theocracy) then I'll probably agree with you, however as it stands the situation isn't stable enough to know where its heading once western interference is removed imho)

PS - My personal take on the 'positive' media reporting which seems to be common in America at present is that its preparing for a full withdrawal and making the invasion appear to have been successful to the public, whether that actually reflects reality ... no idea but I'm a natural cynic.

[RainMaker]

If thousands of Americans can lose their lives so Dutch can save a couple bucks filling up his gas tank, it must be worth it.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by Dutch

We took out Saddam Hussein because he was screwing with our economy, that's a good enough reason for me...I hate high gas prices afterall. So what's in it for me to send troops into Libya? The people there are doing a decent enough job of overthrowing their government, why ruin the role of President Obama as the apologist?

There is no doubt that Iraq has an influence on the other repressive regimes of the middle east. Nobody else thought this was even possible.

I agree that middle eastern turmoil was inevitable with these 20th century dictators, but I would argue that Iraq's stability and promise acted as an accelerator.

The middle east is a copy-cat league afterall.

Laugh. Iraq, stable and full of promise?

Yeah, no.

Iraq had nothing to do with the Middle East blowup. In fact, they're one of the countries experiencing turmoil as a result of the whole Tunisia-Egypt chain that kicked this whole thing off.