Alright boyz, here we go!!! OOTP2006 First Impressions Thread!

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I'm not blaming Marc at all, but because he's the service rep, he gets to wear it...that's his job.

My point is why do we have to wait for the second patch for something that should've been fixed years ago?? Both SI and Markus are to blame for that. Markus either hasn't tried or hasn't been successful in fixing it over the years and SI is responsible for putting out this game with the exact same flaws...despite a brand new rewrite.

I'd still like to know how stuff like this gets through beta testing...

I take the point about the issues, but since I wasnt aware of them as I was not historically involved, I can do nothing except push people in the right direction for patch2.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by dervack

And you really don't even have to go back that far. A lot of these same points were brought up when they first uploaded the reports, and it didn't seem that there was any concern from anyone from SI nor the beta testers. Hell, it seems that the pitchers playing the field was such an easy fix that Markus had it taken care of in the first patch, but couldn't get it taken care of when it was pointed out here and the big boards the first time the reports were uploaded.

Very unfair. When the reports were uploaded we tackled a ton of issues raised and got these fixed in the intial release. I'm just sad we didnt get this one for you.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not to pile on and this is more or less out of curiousity. But has anyone else noticed less action in the mod community of OOTP this year? I know in years past there were tons of rosters, facepacks, etc at all times. I know they gave the game to a lot of the roster makers and such early. This is the first year I can ever remember that they didn't have a MLB roster set within a week or two. Doesn't look like the MLB set is coming through anytime soon either. Not sure if that is a new SI thing, but Markus always seemed to give the mod guys big headstarts.

I know of a lot of projects in progress (and I personally gave them big headstarts), much of the reason behind the slowness is the fact that it's an all new game. I know of roster sets, facepacks and even an application to edit the commentary XML.

Some websites should be springing up soon too

[SackAttack]

Good grief.

I just managed a game where we rallied from down 8-1 to get to within 8-4.

Relief pitcher surrenders 4 runs to give the Padres a 12-4 lead. We get the 4 right back in the bottom of the 4th. They go up 13-8 in the top of the 6th, we tie it in the bottom of the 8th, and win it 14-13 in the 11th inning.

14 runs, 19 hits, and 11 walks.

My leadoff hitter? 0-7 with no walks. Poor bastard.

[MrBug708]

Sounds like someone needs his role re-evaluated

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Sounds like someone needs his role re-evaluated

Has anybody seen any weirdness like what's being registered for SS Valladores, who went 5-5 with a walk (no sacrifices of any kind; I checked), and yet left four men on base?

His day, if anybody's interested and can maybe figure out what the game is counting here:

bottom of the 2nd: singles Revell to 3rd
bottom of the 3rd: singles home DeLeon and Lyall, Hockridge to 2nd
bottom of the 4th: walks home Lyall, Hockridge to 3rd, Revell to 2nd
bottom of the 7th: leadoff single
bottom of the 8th: singles home DeLeon, Hockridge to 3rd, Revell to 2nd
bottom of the 10th: leadoff single

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

I'm not blaming Marc at all, but because he's the service rep, he gets to wear it...that's his job.

Heh - you'll have to forgive me then if I'm doing a clumsy job as 'service rep' isn't anything at all to do with my 'real job' which is development related (I'm one of the geeks who is hidden away from customers normally ), I'm just a tad over passionate about our games so tend to get involved in discusions about them and try and help people out where possible.

[SirFozzie]

Yer doin good Marc. Enthusiasm for your products can be contagigous

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Has anybody seen any weirdness like what's being registered for SS Valladores, who went 5-5 with a walk (no sacrifices of any kind; I checked), and yet left four men on base?

His day, if anybody's interested and can maybe figure out what the game is counting here:

bottom of the 2nd: singles Revell to 3rd
bottom of the 3rd: singles home DeLeon and Lyall, Hockridge to 2nd
bottom of the 4th: walks home Lyall, Hockridge to 3rd, Revell to 2nd
bottom of the 7th: leadoff single
bottom of the 8th: singles home DeLeon, Hockridge to 3rd, Revell to 2nd
bottom of the 10th: leadoff single

Looks like it counted whether or not players that were on base reached home when we batted. That can't be right, although now that I think about it, I'm not sure how this stat is counted. I'm guessing a batter is only credited for leaving runners on base if they record an out without advancing the runners.

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I don't know, read your boards - they have never anything close to this negative about OOTP.

I dunno, that board seems like a pretty huge whinefest about the game. I mean, there are positive threads too, but I hate going over there because all we have there are 100 of the same thread about how "unplayable" the game is. It's like, ok, we get it. Now, shutup and go play something else and wait for the patch or log new reasons or something.

At least here, its just one long thread, rather than 18 threads about it. I mean, seriously.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Ryche

Looks like it counted whether or not players that were on base reached home when we batted. That can't be right, although now that I think about it, I'm not sure how this stat is counted. I'm guessing a batter is only credited for leaving runners on base if they record an out without advancing the runners.

Here's the thing. By my count, he came up to bat with a cumulative total of ten men on base, and drove in 4 of them. That leaves 6, but the game says he had 4 LOB. The only thing I can figure is that subsequent guys who score who were on base for him get removed from his LOB total.

I'm going to go back through the game log and see if that's true.

[SackAttack]

In looking at his performance with guys on base...

bottom of the 2nd: singles Revell to 3rd
Revell out at home on a safety squeeze play

bottom of the 3rd: singles home DeLeon and Lyall, Hockridge to 2nd
Hockridge stranded at 2nd following F9 and 5-3 putouts

bottom of the 4th: walks home Lyall, Hockridge to 3rd, Revell to 2nd
Hockridge and Revell score on McClean's single

bottom of the 8th: singles home DeLeon, Hockridge to 3rd, Revell to 2nd
Hockridge scores on Bradshaw's single, Revell scores on Serrano's fielding error

So of the six guys he didn't drive in, four scored anyway. Only two were put out.

The only possible explanation here is that the game isn't counting the guys who were put out against him, but IS counting the guys who scored as having been LOB. Which is also retarded.

Every definition I've found suggests that individual LOB is based on how many guys are on base when the batter makes an out - which I take to mean while he's the batter, not a subsequent baserunner. Even so, the only time Valladores was put out on base, he *was* the lead baserunner.

In no situation did he record an out with anybody on base ahead of him, so why is he being charged with men LOB?

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I take the point about the issues, but since I wasnt aware of them as I was not historically involved, I can do nothing except push people in the right direction for patch2.

Are you telling me that you didn't do any research into the product you are responsible for overseeing/marketing/representing (not sure how you fit into all of this, forgive me)?? You didn't check out any of the previous versions?? You didn't check out the community...either at the old OOTP boards...SI boards...or, yes, even this one?? You didn't sit down with Markus and discuss what he had in mind for this version and how he could make it better than previous versions??

Far be it from me to tell you how to do your job, but as vocal as you are here about OOTP2006 you should know most, if not all, of the versions of OOTP inside and out by now and none of the issues that are being brought up now should be news to you. So, your plea of ignorance on the history of the game doesn't hold water with me.

[johnnyshaka]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Heh - you'll have to forgive me then if I'm doing a clumsy job as 'service rep' isn't anything at all to do with my 'real job' which is development related (I'm one of the geeks who is hidden away from customers normally ), I'm just a tad over passionate about our games so tend to get involved in discusions about them and try and help people out where possible.

Sorry Marc, the service rep comment was meant for Marc Duffy.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Are you telling me that you didn't do any research into the product you are responsible for overseeing/marketing/representing (not sure how you fit into all of this, forgive me)?? You didn't check out any of the previous versions?? You didn't check out the community...either at the old OOTP boards...SI boards...or, yes, even this one?? You didn't sit down with Markus and discuss what he had in mind for this version and how he could make it better than previous versions??

Far be it from me to tell you how to do your job, but as vocal as you are here about OOTP2006 you should know most, if not all, of the versions of OOTP inside and out by now and none of the issues that are being brought up now should be news to you. So, your plea of ignorance on the history of the game doesn't hold water with me.

Yup and then you have the fact that. . . . . . .

OK. What else can be said on this that hasn't been?

1) The game was released in bad shape and many people on this board find the game unplayable. (me included)

2) Some of these bugs have been here version after version. It's ridiculous they've slipped this long. It's frustrating.

3) With a two year window between the last release and this one, we should have seen a much more polished game.

Some people, through past experiences and because of the three things listed above, have given up on the game. I can't argue with you. I think you have every right to be pissed and every right to want to move onto something else. I see the reason for bitter dissapointment.

OK, now that's out of the way, what's Marc Duffy supposed to do? Everything is in the past and cannot be changed. We can have a variating on the same post for another 25 pages and it still won't change what's happened.

I can assure you Marc is listening to the frustrated people and is interested in fixing the long standing issues. That doesn't mean the game is going to get fixed to my satisfaction or yours. I'm not going to make a promise as to how well the game will play at the end of this process. I can only say that SI seems pretty damned interested in making it right and as its Si's first go with the game, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not sure there is really anymore that can be said until the next patch is released. We all know the history at this point. We all know where each other stand. Nobody is moving for the next couple of weeks at least, and some may never move. I don't even know what I'm rambling about now.

I guess the easiest way to say it is I'm holding off on my rips until patch 2 is released. If I'm not happy, I'll say so and move on. It won't be the first time I've made a poor PC game purchase and it will certainly not be the last. On the other hand, I think there is a chance many of the issues will be cleared up. (please, don't debate that point, maybe it's false optimism, maybe I'm insane, maybe I'm a stupid dolt, I'm ok with any of those descriptions)

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I guess the easiest way to say it is I'm holding off on my rips until patch 2 is released. If I'm not happy, I'll say so and move on. It won't be the first time I've made a poor PC game purchase and it will certainly not be the last. On the other hand, I think there is a chance many of the issues will be cleared up. (please, don't debate that point, maybe it's false optimism, maybe I'm insane, maybe I'm a stupid dolt, I'm ok with any of those descriptions)

I'm not giving up either, as critical as I've been. I just think it's more like a 4 patch fix, and am not getting my hopes up for July.

[Galaril]

I have given up most hope for this years version, but I am surprised to say Bill Abner, well respected baseball game reviewer for years has not:

As for OOTP, the testing continues and I'll post some more stuff tonight, time permitting. I'm starting to think that this is going to be the best baseball game ever made...sometime around the end of July.

http://sportsgamer.blogspot.com/

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I have given up most hope for this years version, but I am surprised to say Bill Abner, well respected baseball game reviewer for years has not:




http://sportsgamer.blogspot.com/

If you think the major AI issues can get fixed, Bill is dead on.

If you think the issues can't or won't be fixed because of past history, Bill is insane and should order PureSim so he can get on with a solid career.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by TroyF

If you think the major AI issues can get fixed, Bill is dead on.

If you think the issues can't or won't be fixed because of past history, Bill is insane and should order PureSim so he can get on with a solid career.

A little surprised myself, especially from Bill... but SI will either make him a genius or make him move on.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I know of a lot of projects in progress (and I personally gave them big headstarts), much of the reason behind the slowness is the fact that it's an all new game. I know of roster sets, facepacks and even an application to edit the commentary XML.

Some websites should be springing up soon too

I'm glad they got a headstart. I was just surprised that no MLB rosters were out yet. I know in previous versions we'd have 5 out by now. Are there any restrictions for those who want to get a headstart for future versions or do most people get what they need?

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by johnnyshaka

Are you telling me that you didn't do any research into the product you are responsible for overseeing/marketing/representing (not sure how you fit into all of this, forgive me)?? You didn't check out any of the previous versions?? You didn't check out the community...either at the old OOTP boards...SI boards...or, yes, even this one?? You didn't sit down with Markus and discuss what he had in mind for this version and how he could make it better than previous versions??

I talked with Markus a lot before he started work on this version and have helped him a fair bit with the technical side of the game (ie. using our internal classes etc.) however I made the decision to leave the actual gameplay and design largely to Markus - Ive suggested a few things but the final decisions on such things have been entirely down to Markus.

Why you say? - simply put I have only limited baseball knowledge and have only similar knowledge of his fan base, I've followed OOTP for around 4 years now and been impressed by Markus's design & development skills and how he's handles his games growing popularity .... hence I thought it best to allow him to get on with what he's good at rather than inject any inappropriate soccer stuff into the game.

Far be it from me to tell you how to do your job, but as vocal as you are here about OOTP2006 you should know most, if not all, of the versions of OOTP inside and out by now and none of the issues that are being brought up now should be news to you. So, your plea of ignorance on the history of the game doesn't hold water with me.

As I've indicated I've followed OOTP from the outside for several years now and I'll happily admit that some of the issues people are indicating are 'old' are new to me, when you follow a game from the outside it is unfortunately impossible to obtain the same level of information as you do for a game you are involved in developing and immersed in the community of.

I apologise for any lack of knowledge on SI's part, it isn't for want of trying ..

The best thing imho for us to do is what we're attempting, simply monitoring feedback and using this to help guide Markus in his work. Obviously we'd all have preferred this release to be absolutely problem free, but life doesn't always work how you'd want ...

Hope this helps,

Marc

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

Obviously we'd all have preferred this release to be absolutely problem free, but life doesn't always work how you'd want ...

I'd love to be able to tell one of my customers that. Would go over really well...

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I'd love to be able to tell one of my customers that. Would go over really well...

why not?

[spleen1015]

FYI, they are going to remove the 14 day time limit from the demo with the next patch.

[Neuqua]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

FYI, they are going to remove the 14 day time limit from the demo with the next patch.

Good news.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I'm not giving up either, as critical as I've been. I just think it's more like a 4 patch fix, and am not getting my hopes up for July.

Yeah, it seems as though the AI needs to be completely rewritten. That's not a patch.

[lighthousekeeper]

we should start having a pool on when patch 2 would be released (and no, Marc or Marc can't enter the pool). My vote: July 14.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

FYI, they are going to remove the 14 day time limit from the demo with the next patch.

Good call. Two weeks isn't enough time to really evaluate a game of this depth, especially if you can only play six months.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I'd love to be able to tell one of my customers that. Would go over really well...

Yeah me too.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Yeah, it seems as though the AI needs to be completely rewritten. That's not a patch.

I assume this is more fact than fiction.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I'd love to be able to tell one of my customers that. Would go over really well...

I tell my customers that all the time.

[Schmidty]

I'm not usually a person who whines about games, and can generally stand even the flawed ones, but this was the biggest waste of my gaming money ever. I am extremely annoyed and disappointed by this joke of a game.

OOTP2006 doesn't just need a face-lift - It needs a heart transplant.

I had planned on finally buying FM my next paycheck (today), but there's no way I'm supporting a company that allows products such as OOTP ever see the light of day.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by dangarion

I tell my customers that all the time.

I don't know what kind of customers you and Draft Dodger have but if I told my customers or business partners that when I completely dropped the ball I'd be looking for a new job.

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I don't know what kind of customers you and Draft Dodger have but if I told my customers or business partners that when I completely dropped the ball I'd be looking for a new job.

Well this goes back to me not thinking they dropped the ball and you thinking they did.

Anyone that thought this game was going to be perfect and have no major flaw that needs to be fixed in a patch, was kidding theirself. It's about time people adjust their expectations when it comes to the Sports Sims, because there is always the need for a patch that fixes a major flaw, from my experiences.

[rexallllsc]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I had planned on finally buying FM my next paycheck (today), but there's no way I'm supporting a company that allows products such as OOTP ever see the light of day.

You're missin out.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I don't know what kind of customers you and Draft Dodger have but if I told my customers or business partners that when I completely dropped the ball I'd be looking for a new job.

Same here. Big Four accounting firms don't like that..........at all.

[lynchjm24]

[quote=dangarion]It's about time people adjust their expectations when it comes to the Sports Sims, [quote]

You are right. It's about time that we all stop buying these games until the developers actually deserve our purchase.

I can tell you I've learned my lesson.

[RainMaker]

It's about time people adjust their expectations when it comes to the Sports Sims, because there is always the need for a patch that fixes a major flaw, from my experiences.

My expectations were just that this game would be better than the last. This one isn't.

[MrBigglesworth]

Is there any summarization anywhere of the major flaws with this game as it stands now without the second patch?

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Is there any summarization anywhere of the major flaws with this game as it stands now without the second patch?

You're joking right?

[miked]

Originally Posted by dangarion

Well this goes back to me not thinking they dropped the ball and you thinking they did.

Anyone that thought this game was going to be perfect and have no major flaw that needs to be fixed in a patch, was kidding theirself. It's about time people adjust their expectations when it comes to the Sports Sims, because there is always the need for a patch that fixes a major flaw, from my experiences.

If you went to a restaurant where you ordered you food and always had to wait another hour after your meal came so the kitchen could re-make the sauce, would you lower your expectations, keep giving them your business and go on with it?

I don't know why we're supposed to lower our standards for games because the industry standard has been to release a 3/4 finished game and then patch it a few times in a few months to make it the game they promised. At some point, the consumers are going to have to take a stand if they ever actually want that game.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Galaril

You're joking right?

sum-mar-i-za-tion

[jbmagic]

Bill Abner finally sees the light with the AI.

Yeah, OK, the Team AI Needs Work

I finally saw it. People have been harping about the weirdo AI and today I finally got a dose of it.

First off, the trade AI seems, at least on its face, to be bad because it doesn't take age into account when trading with itself. If you set trades to "hard" it's tough to screw the AI but it apparantly loves to screw itself. Case in point:

Victoria trades a 28 year old .300 hitting catcher with a 100 arm. He's one of the best young catchers in the league. They move him for a good LFer..who is 37 years old. No way would this trade ever happen. Worst still, on April 15th..he's cut outright (the 37 year old) and then the next day signed to a 1 year deal for 2.5 million by another team. Totally choatic, eh?

Here's hoping patch #2, which is due out I think sometime in July, takes care of some of this stuff.

posted by bill at 3:13 PM | 0 comments
More OOTP Tests

Back to the trade AI. I'm still not convinced that the trade issues are game killers, but I do think the AI here needs retooled a bit. I still have yet to see a blockbuster trade where one team got totally hosed but here's an example of what the game will do when trading with itself: (in my fictional league, anyway)

Burlington trades away a 30 year old 1B who in 2022 hit .285 with 31 homers. (A career year for this guy who was previously a very middle of the road player). He is making 3 million a year through arbitration so he's locked up for at least 2 more years. His scouting report (through a head scout and not that crappy SISA thing) is (on a 1-100 scale) 68 contact and 72 power with a 58 eye. He fans a lot (has like a 30 in avoid Ks) and also has little "gap" power. He's a poor defender but he's a 1B so...no biggie. Burlington trades him to Capital City, who promptly slid him into the 3rd spot in the lineup.

In return, Burlington received a 34 year old starting pitcher, who used to be a very very good starter from 2011 through 2017 until he got hurt. His last two seasons he is a combined 4-17 with a 5+ ERA. The guy just looks washed up, stats wise. His scouting report, OTOH, says he's 88/27/68 which really isn't all that hateful. They also received a backup level catcher who is a borderline Major Leaguer at best, along with 1.75 million in cash.

One bit of weirdness is that Burlington put the pitcher in AAA. Looking at their rotation this new pitcher could most likely make the rotation as the 4 or 5 man, but as of now he's in AAA. Finally, I did notice that Burlington has a pretty good 1B in place right now who is 3 years younger than the 30 year old that they traded.

In checking team finances, both teams are fine money wise. In fact Cap City has a lot of free cap space.

So, what to make of it? I guess the question here is how is the AI evaluating players? It's clearly not by stats. If so this trade looks ludicrous. The 1B belted 31 homers and hit for a fair average and the pitcher looks totally washed up. The scouting reports is the only thing I can think of. If that pitcher plays to his report he should be pretty solid. I do have an issue with trading away a 30 HR guy and putting the received player in AAA -- AND for getting a player who is 34 years old. That's a tad wonky.

[AgustusM]

I love Markus as a developer, but I think he is having a mid-career slump.

Up until about v5 I think Markus was hitting HR after HR. The game kept getting better and he was quick to address the problems.

then it appears that Markus was bored with the straight forward process and tired to elaborate on OOTP without addressing some of the core issues that remained.

First we had the .400 merge - I don't think I would classify this as Markus's fault, but it was the first time he felt the need to "merge" and not stay solo. This of course didn't work out to well.

ITP - very interesting in concept, very thin in actual game play, and then completely and totally abandoned.

H2H - the big K with the bases loaded in the world series, promised, not delivered, promised in patch, not delivered, promised in update, not delivered and then completely swept under the rug. The funny thing about H2H is I doubt I would have even used it that much, it was the way that is was handled that I thought was so poor. And now the official stance seems to be that it was all just a bad dream and never really happened.

6.5 - hey I would line Makus's pocket with gold, I would easily pay twice what the games cost - put 6.5 was a 20 patch IMO. and almost EVERY feature that we paid 20 for in 6.5 was left out of 2006.

Merger with SI - jury is still out, but the bottom line is the merger has been one of the best reasons why the game has gone from a MLB sim to a world sim - some may view that as a good thing, I think most (the core customer base of MLB players) do not.

Missing opening day release - yes software should be released when it is ready and tested and all that. But outside of cash flow reason, 6.5 should have been skipped and 2006 should have been done and completed in time for opening day. again if you are looking at it from a world viewpoint opening day is meaningless, if you are looking at it from a MLB standpoint - it is vital.

2006 - some nice things, but essentially this game has changed directions - v3-6 were some of the best games I ever played - 2006 will sit mostly unused next week when Head Coach comes out.

Here is to hoping that Markus refocus and gets back to the core of what made OOTP such a great franchise.

[moriarty]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I'd love to be able to tell one of my customers that. Would go over really well...

Seriously, you're really starting to sound like one of those guys who whines about everything. Is the game in sad shape ... yeah, you've made your point.

But Marc V comes on here, and is very honest. He says he apologizes if there were things that were wrong in previous versions that weren't fixed but that regardless they are commited to improving the game.

To me, that's the kind of stand up statement that I can appreciate. I mean would you prefer the alternative - SI to come here and say the game is great, there's nothing wrong and there's only a minority complaining? If so, go to the maximum football sight and enjoy yourself.

I think we'd all prefer that the game was fixed before release. It wasn't. But all the whining in the world isn't going to change that. If you don't want to buy OOTP again, fine. But it really is childish when a developer comes on here and apologizes and you still find need to bash them.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by moriarty

To me, that's the kind of stand up statement that I can appreciate. I mean would you prefer the alternative - SI to come here and say the game is great, there's nothing wrong and there's only a minority complaining? If so, go to the maximum football sight and enjoy yourself.

But it really is childish when a developer comes on here and apologizes and you still find need to bash them.

That's no apology. That is utter bullshit. An apology would read something like:

We are sorry for releasing a game that hasn't met our pre-release marketing and has fallen well short of our customer's and our expectations. We will continue to do everything possible to correct this as quickly as possible. Thanks for your continued interest and patience.

I might be whining, but I'm not the one who released a piece of shit game. If you go to the OOTP boards you can already see that SI is quick to embrace those that are positive about the game - anyone with any sense can tell you if you want to improve you need to listen to your critics, not your blind supporters.

[Johnny Slick]

IMO people here are getting WAY too rosy about 6.5 and just want to bash 2k6. There are huge AI issues, I agree. These issues have been with the game for a long time and it's kind of curious that so many of you only calling the game unplayable because of these now, but that's another story. To say that this somehow makes the game a step backwards from 6.5 is ludicrous. 6.5 had a broken *game engine*. You couldn't adjust for eras very well at all, ballparks were tied to the pitcher's handedness rather than the hitters, and lefty/righty splits were all messed up as well. If I had to choose between a game that produced okay baseball and had AI issues and one that did okay with roster AI but had a messed up stat engine, I would take the former game every single time. I would then lobby to get that game's AI issues settled, but I sure as hell would not move back to the title that didn't care whether my team played in the Polo Grounds or Old Comiskey Park, or made leagues hit .320 if you adjusted HRs, walks, and Ks to deadball era levels and left everything else alone.

As for this "if you said this in my job you'd be fired" garbage, I also work in customer service. It's my job in many cases to break bad news to people. I'm sorry, but this is a world inhabited by humans. It's not perfect by any means. If I go into a restaurant and have to wait a long time to get something, I am 1000% more impressed if the staff comes out, explains what's going on, and apologizes than if they say "everything is going good." In fact, I will often give restaurants a "mulligan" on mistakes if they're polite and apologetic about them. If you're the kind of person who throws that politeness back into someone's face, then... well, I'm glad I'm not you, I guess.

[AgustusM]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Yeah, it seems as though the AI needs to be completely rewritten. That's not a patch.

uh, isn't that what we just got???

[DanGarion]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

As for this "if you said this in my job you'd be fired" garbage, I also work in customer service. It's my job in many cases to break bad news to people. I'm sorry, but this is a world inhabited by humans. It's not perfect by any means. If I go into a restaurant and have to wait a long time to get something, I am 1000% more impressed if the staff comes out, explains what's going on, and apologizes than if they say "everything is going good." In fact, I will often give restaurants a "mulligan" on mistakes if they're polite and apologetic about them. If you're the kind of person who throws that politeness back into someone's face, then... well, I'm glad I'm not you, I guess.

My thoughts exactly when I made that comment saying I say that all the time.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

IMO people here are getting WAY too rosy about 6.5 and just want to bash 2k6.

I think that's a big part of the problem. I think too many people are overrating 6.5. There may even be a fair amount of 2k6 underrating going on. As has been said before, there's a great framework in place -- now the engine needs to be tightened up.

Originally Posted by Johnny Slick

As for this "if you said this in my job you'd be fired" garbage, I also work in customer service. It's my job in many cases to break bad news to people. I'm sorry, but this is a world inhabited by humans. It's not perfect by any means. If I go into a restaurant and have to wait a long time to get something, I am 1000% more impressed if the staff comes out, explains what's going on, and apologizes than if they say "everything is going good." In fact, I will often give restaurants a "mulligan" on mistakes if they're polite and apologetic about them. If you're the kind of person who throws that politeness back into someone's face, then... well, I'm glad I'm not you, I guess.

I see where you and dangarion are coming from, I think it was a poor choice of words from Marc that set the wrong tone. I work for an association and we make mistakes that impact our members from time to time. When that happens, I certainly appologize, explain the error and try to make it right.

But if I ever said, "but life doesn't always work how you'd want," I'd probably get punched in the face. The first time Mrs. kcchief19 and I went on a date, we went out for pizza and ordered a split pizza with two different ingredients on each side. They accidentally messed up the order and put the wrong combination of ingredients so both sides were incorrect. The server said we could have that pizza for free and they would make us up a correct pizza as fast as possible. Good answer. If she day said, "doesn't always work how you'd want," we would have asked to see the manager, left without paying for that abomination and never gone back.

I don't think that's what Marc meant and I think he's frustrated too. That's why when you're representating your company sometimes its better not to say anything or take a moment and think about it before reacting. It's an innocent mistake, but it eventually results in people just stacking one issue on to another and getting more frustrated than they need to be.