Lost, Season 2

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Charlie as a violent pseudo-kidnapper of Sun?

Didn't Charlie say he wanted Locke to feel embarassed and powerless, and he saw that by going along with Sawyer this would be accomplished.

Originally Posted by NoMyths

With Sawyer behind it, even though he'd sailed away with the woman's husband, the same guy who helped save his life later?

Sawyer is a grifter/con man who cares for no one but himself. You are thinking as a "normal" person would.

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Jack saying "Does it matter?"

Just to show how Jack is pushing for an army. Shows how his character is quick to judge that the "Others" did this, and not think about it. Basically telling everyone who cares why she was attacked, the point is, is that she was and we need to defend ourselves now!

Originally Posted by NoMyths

to why Sun was attacked?

See above

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Locke NOT noticing that Charlie was following him (esp. if he was nervous about moving the guns), when he'd let Charlie follow him for an hour in an earlier episode and led him in circles?

Because, as you noted before, he let charlie follow him and led him in circles. This time Locke was not aware Charlie was following as Locke was more concerned about hiding the guns from what he thought was eminent danger. Little did locke know, in his rush to rehide/stash the arsenal of weapons, that he was being followed.

[Cuckoo]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

I was actually quite disappointed in this episode, as most of the main players were acting against their characters. Charlie as a violent pseudo-kidnapper of Sun? With Sawyer behind it, even though he'd sailed away with the woman's husband, the same guy who helped save his life later? Jack saying "Does it matter?" to why Sun was attacked? Locke NOT noticing that Charlie was following him (esp. if he was nervous about moving the guns), when he'd let Charlie follow him for an hour in an earlier episode and led him in circles?

I understand that narratives rely on conflict and have to generate new and sometimes irrational conflict in order to thrive, but these felt like character missteps to me. I hope there is a solid payoff, but can't say I wasn't disappointed in the new turns.

I agree with you. Although I liked this episode much better than the last one, this kind of character inconsistency, almost irrational, has been present the past two episodes.

[John Galt]

I agree with Cuckoo and Nomyths. To me, when the story has been survivors v. island, the characters seem natural and interesting. With the new survivors v. survivors story, the characters seem forced and silly. I certainly expect tensions and conflict, but the underlying freakiness of the island should be a much more unifying force than displayed in the last 2 episodes. And Charlie's bizarre turn in particular seemed a little strained in my mind (is there anything in his background that would indicate he would have the stomach and desire to kidnap a friend and hurt her as much as he did?).

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by John Galt

And Charlie's bizarre turn in particular seemed a little strained in my mind (is there anything in his background that would indicate he would have the stomach and desire to kidnap a friend and hurt her as much as he did?).

In terms of hurting someone he recently met, what about that part of his backstory from season 1, where he was stealing from that rich girl he was dating, I think to feed his heroin habit. Although not kidnapping, I guess you could say if someone can steal from a friend/lover,etc and con them (essentially hurting them in another way that is not physical), pseudo kidnapping isn't too far out of the realm of possibilities for revenge.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by gottimd

In terms of hurting someone he recently met, what about that part of his backstory from season 1, where he was stealing from that rich girl he was dating, I think to feed his heroin habit. Although not kidnapping, I guess you could say if someone can steal from a friend/lover,etc and con them (essentially hurting them in another way that is not physical), pseudo kidnapping isn't too far out of the realm of possibilities for revenge.

I think you are trying wayyyyy too hard. Stealing to feed an addiction is VERY different than kidnappying/beating of a friend when completely sober for petty revenge, IMO.

[Castlerock]

I agree that a lot of the characters have been acting "out of character". NoMyths is dead on.

Just a theory... could this be a symptom of the "madness" the French Lady spoke of?

[jbmagic]

Could it be that Charlie is back on drugs again for the way he is acting the last 2 episodes?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

Could it be that Charlie is back on drugs again for the way he is acting the last 2 episodes?

Given he refused the statute with heroin in the last episode and there is no other known stash, I would say not.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I think you are trying wayyyyy too hard. Stealing to feed an addiction is VERY different than kidnappying/beating of a friend when completely sober for petty revenge, IMO.

I agree with you, I didn't say they are one in the same, I meant that he has demonstrated in his past that he can hurt people that he knows. Also, I wasn't sure the Sun mentioned he beat her, I guess I missed that part, but it sounded like she said a bag was put over her head and she was kicking and screaming (while being dragged), and got away. Is it possible, the Charlie didn't give her a few jabs to the forehead, that she suffered those injuries from being dragged on the ground?

Also, why do you call it petty revenge? He was embarassed and hurt, and seemed very pissed about it. Also being that they are on the island and there is no escape, he is only left to ponder that moment, which would probably infuriate anybody beyond forgiveness, making it more than just a petty revenge for someone.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

I agree that a lot of the characters have been acting "out of character". NoMyths is dead on.

Acting out of character? We really don't know that much about each character to assume they are acting the way they normally do. For instance, Sawyer, who yes, we knew was a grifter/con artist, no one thought he would be conning everyone on the island to be in control. I forget his animal analogy (Stripes on a horse or something), but maybe that is what everyone is doing. Acting a certain way to gain trust with the group, but in the end they will end up acting like who they truly are.

Basically my point is that we are assuming everyone is a certain type of character, and now they are beginning to act differently. Who is to say that from the beginning they haven't been acting like themselves, and will now start to do so?

[rkmsuf]

What a great show to be on. 80% of the cast has like 2 lines a week.

oh and I'm having withdrawls so.....


Walt!

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Basically my point is that we are assuming everyone is a certain type of character, and now they are beginning to act differently. Who is to say that from the beginning they haven't been acting like themselves, and will now start to do so?

I'm assuming nothing. I am speaking as an expert on narrative development.

There is still plenty of depth and surprise to be mined with each character. But the developments of last night's show were serious missteps, in my opinion. I'm not attacking the show...I'm attacking that script.

[Toddzilla]

Did anyone notice that the music playing when Sayied hooked up the radio - "Moonlight Serenade" by Glen Miller - was the same song from that famous Twilight Zone episode? In the TZ, a guy in a nursing home had an old radio that broadcasted that song, but it was being broadcast from the 1940s. Everyone in the home thought the guy was crazy. Kinda neat for Hurley to make that TZ reference: " or from another time".

Classic!

[timmynausea]

I don't think of it as character missteps. I think of it as us learning more about the characters and/or character development. Locke beat and shamed Charlie in front of everyone. Charlie has been a little weird in some of the backstories and now he is basically a complete outcast. He lost things that were really important to him in Claire and the baby. I don't think it's completely unreasonable that he would do this, knowing that Sun wasn't actually going to be seriously hurt.

It'd be worse if the show just pretended that what happened to Charlie last time was nothing and he would just go on exactly the same as before. I'd rather have character development that sometimes goes in irrational directions than have a sitcom type environment where the characters never change and you just plug a new situation into the show's "formula".

[NoMyths]

Here's one way that I can see allowing the characters to act oddly: remember that "virus" that the French chick talked about, and everyone assumed was just craziness? I could see folks being affected that way. But it would still point to a specific reason for a change, rather than just needing to interject more inter-survivor conflict.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

Just a theory... could this be a symptom of the "madness" the French Lady spoke of?

I think Nomyths has you on ignore.

[gottimd]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it...but what about the virus?

[jbmagic]

will Michael ever come back?

[OldGiants]

Originally Posted by jbmagic

will Michael ever come back?

Yes, in a two-man episode in which the dialogue consists solely of :

Michael [shouts]: WALT!!

Jin: Gun!

Repeated for 60 minuts, minus commercials.

[Castlerock]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I think Nomyths has you on ignore.

What did I ever do to him?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

What did I ever do to him?

First Rule of FOFC: Don't diss NoMyth's poetry.

[Bearcat729]

Hmm something interesting from the preview.....














Yeah watch out there's a possible spoiler ahead













Okay so apparently in the preview last week they show the timer running down to zero. People on the The Fuselage.com noticed that the clock they show in the preview has 3 numbers while the actual clock in the Swan bunker has 5 numbers.

[mgadfly]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I think you are trying wayyyyy too hard. Stealing to feed an addiction is VERY different than kidnappying/beating of a friend when completely sober for petty revenge, IMO.

Well first off, he didn't kidnap and beat her. In her explanation she said she had the bag put over her head and her hands tied. She started running and tripped and then couldn't remember what happened (something along those lines). I don't think it would be out of line for Charlie to tie her hands and put a bag on her head in order to get back at Locke. If he had beat her, it would be a little more difficult to believe (but not a lot since I really only know a very little about him--basically, that he is an okay guy as long as he gets what he wants, the girl, the baby, his heroin, etc... but he has been a pretty demanding and irritating character when he hasn't gotten what he wants--like an explanation about what is in the hatch, the peanut butter when Hurley was in charge of the food, etc...).

Plus, if Locke had done that to me, steal my girl and my baby (I know it isn't really his baby, but that isn't the way he sees it) I'd have kicked his ass somehow. Since Charlie is a pussy I don't see him passing up Sawyer's offer especially since Sun wasn't supposed to trip and hurt herself. And I'd want to kill a man if he stole my wife, so I don't think Charlie is being too petty considering who he is or has been made out to be.

The thing that bothered me the most was that Kate (the super criminal that the marshal had needed 5 guns when tracking her down) was so easily duped that she even suggested that Sawyer go tell Locke to move the guns.

[Rizon]

Did nobody catch the Glen Miller connection?

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Castlerock

What did I ever do to him?

Heh...missed your statement.

Originally Posted by John Galt

First Rule of FOFC: Don't diss NoMyth's poetry.

Though this certainly still stands.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Rizon

Did nobody catch the Glen Miller connection?

Yeah, I did.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Yeah, I did.

Care to explain?

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Care to explain?

Hurley on the beach and Sayid approaches...he shows Hurley the walkie-talkie and Sayid tells him not to get excited - it might not work...They get static, then Rousseau's message...THEN Glen Miller's "Moonlight Serenade"...it's so clear, Hurley thinks it's too clear and it's close by...Sayid says it could be bouncing from anywhere in the ionisphere and they just enjoy the music...

[rkmsuf]

More Libby, less Hobbit please.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Hurley on the beach and Sayid approaches...he shows Hurley the walkie-talkie and Sayid tells him not to get excited - it might not work...They get static, then Rousseau's message...THEN Glen Miller's "Moonlight Serenade"...it's so clear, Hurley thinks it's too clear and it's close by...Sayid says it could be bouncing from anywhere in the ionisphere and they just enjoy the music...

When Sayid says it could be coming from anywhere, Hurley ends it with "Or any time..."

I caught that. I thought you guys were talking about more.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

Care to explain?

Well, Glen Miller was on the radio. . .
And we know Miller is the King of Beers . . .
And Swayer is the new King of the island . . .
And like Sawyer, Tom Sawyer had a rough childhood . . .
And Tom Sawyer was a character in a story by Mark Twain . . .
And Mark Twain once said "A round man cannot be expected to fit in a square hole right away. He must have time to modify his shape."

So, we know Hurley will get stuck in the entrance to the hatch in the next episode. It was obvious, really.

[John Galt]

dola,

or it could be that Glen Miller's plane famously disappeared over the English Channel.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Well, Glen Miller was on the radio. . .
And we know Miller is the King of Beers . . .
And Swayer is the new King of the island . . .
And like Sawyer, Tom Sawyer had a rough childhood . . .
And Tom Sawyer was a character in a story by Mark Twain . . .
And Mark Twain once said "A round man cannot be expected to fit in a square hole right away. He must have time to modify his shape."

So, we know Hurley will get stuck in the entrance to the hatch in the next episode. It was obvious, really.

That's brilliant.

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I caught that. I thought you guys were talking about more.

There is...Glenn Miller went 'lost' during WWII when his plane went down while flying from England to France late in the war (over the English Channel, I think). Neither any wreckage nor any bodies from that flight were ever recovered.

Edit - What Galt said...

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by VPI97

There is...Glenn Miller went 'lost' during WWII when his plane went down while flying from England to France late in the war (over the English Channel, I think). Neither any wreckage nor any bodies from that flight were ever recovered.

Edit - What Galt said...

I didn't know that. Thanks!

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by Bearcat729

Okay so apparently in the preview last week they show the timer running down to zero. People on the The Fuselage.com noticed that the clock they show in the preview has 3 numbers while the actual clock in the Swan bunker has 5 numbers.

[Raiders Army]

Maybe it's a different countdown?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Maybe it's a different countdown?

Man you are quick.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Man you are quick.

Burn!

[sovereignstar]

gottimd, maybe you could honor the wishes of guys who don't want anything to do with what they show in previews? Is this too hard to ask from guys?

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Man you are quick.

They call me Fast Raiders Army in these parts.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

gottimd, maybe you could honor the wishes of guys who don't want anything to do with what they show in previews? Is this too hard to ask from guys?

huh??? Someone else brought up the subject, all I did was post the pictures from what was shown on the previews. Did it really give away the ending or anything else bsides that it is a different clock? oooooooooh, can you solve the lost puzzle now?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by gottimd

huh??? Someone else brought up the subject, all I did was post the pictures from what was shown on the previews. Did it really give away the ending or anything else bsides that it is a different clock? oooooooooh, can you solve the lost puzzle now?

Raiders Army figured it out in a matter of seconds.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Raiders Army figured it out in a matter of seconds.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Hold on there cowboy. It took me a good few minutes to figure out what the top pic was let alone the bottom pic.

[Bearcat729]

Originally Posted by gottimd

huh??? Someone else brought up the subject, all I did was post the pictures from what was shown on the previews. Did it really give away the ending or anything else bsides that it is a different clock? oooooooooh, can you solve the lost puzzle now?

I actually avoided posting the picture for that reason. I didn't want people who aviod any and all possible spoilers to get upset. It's also why I put so much space in the post to give them a chance to ignore the post.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by Bearcat729

I actually avoided posting the picture for that reason. I didn't want people who aviod any and all possible spoilers to get upset. It's also why I put so much space in the post to give them a chance to ignore the post.

Yeah, as you can see gottimd deleted the rest of your message in his quote.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Yeah, as you can see gottimd deleted the rest of your message in his quote.

Aw come on now sunshine, cheer up! That picture doesn't give away shit. I'm sure no one solved all the riddles from that picture. Wow, there are 2 different clocks, or could it be a dream? Who knows...either way that picture isn't a spoiler........we know there is a clock, how do you even know what the other picture is of, it could be a timer on an old oven timer or an old alarm clock?? It almost gives away as much as this one.....



Look, its Sawyer with a gun, but it isn't the rifle he had in the last episode....

[rkmsuf]

I'm eagerly awaiting Raiders Army's conclusions based on this.

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by gottimd

Aw come on now sunshine, cheer up! That picture doesn't give away shit. I'm sure no one solved all the riddles from that picture. Wow, there are 2 different clocks, or could it be a dream? Who knows...either way that picture isn't a spoiler........we know there is a clock, how do you even know what the other picture is of, it could be a timer on an old oven timer or an old alarm clock?? It almost gives away as much as this one.....



Look, its Sawyer with a gun, but it isn't the rifle he had in the last episode....

Rub it however you want. Some people want to go into the next week's episode knowing nothing. Sure, the picture doesn't mean shit, but you knowingly quoted Bearcat and got rid of the spoiler warning.

[gottimd]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar

Rub it however you want. Some people want to go into the next week's episode knowing nothing. Sure, the picture doesn't mean shit, but you knowingly quoted Bearcat and got rid of the spoiler warning.

Okay, I just didnt see it as a spoiler since it was shown in the previews and ads for next week, and that it technically gives away nothing.

If it was a picture showing Jack killing Locke or something, than I could see it as having/needing a spoiler tag. This picture would just be like showing Locke on the beach during the day, then Locke at night in the jungle.