OT: A Song of Ice and Fire Series (spoilers inside)

[timmynausea]

As far as number 1 on bug's list, my lady friend developed a theory that I think would make a lot of sense. It's not a true spoiler as it's speculation, but I will tag it anyway:

Spoiler

GRRM has indirectly hinted at Jon Snow being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar a lot, potentially making that a little too obvious to the savvy reader, so the twist will be that Snow is in fact the son of Lyanna and the mad King Aerys, who was a known rapist. The other part of this theory is that Tyrion is also the son, by rape, of King Aerys, as that would explain Tywin's sudden backing out of the hand of the King role and constantly saying "You're not my son" to Tyrion. (And of course Tywin would be too proud to publicly admit that the King raped his wife.) That links Daenerys, Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister as the three heads of the Targaryen dragon. It's also of note that all 3 of their mothers died giving birth to them.

Just a theory, though.

[GrantDawg]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

As far as number 1 on bug's list, my lady friend developed a theory that I think would make a lot of sense. It's not a true spoiler as it's speculation, but I will tag it anyway:

Spoiler

GRRM has indirectly hinted at Jon Snow being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar a lot, potentially making that a little too obvious to the savvy reader, so the twist will be that Snow is in fact the son of Lyanna and the mad King Aerys, who was a known rapist. The other part of this theory is that Tyrion is also the son, by rape, of King Aerys, as that would explain Tywin's sudden backing out of the hand of the King role and constantly saying "You're not my son" to Tyrion. (And of course Tywin would be too proud to publicly admit that the King raped his wife.) That links Daenerys, Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister as the three heads of the Targaryen dragon. It's also of note that all 3 of their mothers died giving birth to them.

Just a theory, though.

Wow. Interesting theory, and could be possible.

[Chief Rum]

Interesting, timmy. My only quibble...

Spoiler

I don't see how Tywin would even consider letting Tyrion live then. A dwarf and not a Lannister? He would have thrown him off of the top of Casterly Rock, IMO (and especially after his wife dies giving birth to him).

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

As far as number 1 on bug's list, my lady friend developed a theory that I think would make a lot of sense. It's not a true spoiler as it's speculation, but I will tag it anyway:

Spoiler

GRRM has indirectly hinted at Jon Snow being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar a lot, potentially making that a little too obvious to the savvy reader, so the twist will be that Snow is in fact the son of Lyanna and the mad King Aerys, who was a known rapist. The other part of this theory is that Tyrion is also the son, by rape, of King Aerys, as that would explain Tywin's sudden backing out of the hand of the King role and constantly saying "You're not my son" to Tyrion. (And of course Tywin would be too proud to publicly admit that the King raped his wife.) That links Daenerys, Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister as the three heads of the Targaryen dragon. It's also of note that all 3 of their mothers died giving birth to them.

Just a theory, though.

That is a pretty good theory. I really, really like it.

[Autumn]

Spoiler

Thinking on Jon ... I think it's clear from melisandre's visions that he is Azor azai reborn (perhaps Dany is too?). In this book we see fire heal Victarion. We see how Dany is not harmed by fire. We assume Jon also has dragon blood. We've seen the red priests raise the dead. We know Melisandre wants to sacrifice the blood of a king in a fire. All signs point to Jon's body going into the flames and coming out healed,reborn as AA. His mind will probably go to Ghost, making him more whole in the end than Cat or Dondarrion. I haven't seen anyone mention it here, but reread his death. You will see smoke, salt and bleeding stars.

The other wrinkle is how often those corpses kept in the cells were mentioned. Often enough that there had to be a reason. Jon's last feelings are the cold. I wonder if his soul wargs to a corpse instead of Ghost.

I thought we stopped with teh spoiler tags.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Interesting, timmy. My only quibble...

Spoiler

I don't see how Tywin would even consider letting Tyrion live then. A dwarf and not a Lannister? He would have thrown him off of the top of Casterly Rock, IMO (and especially after his wife dies giving birth to him).

That's not a bad point.

Spoiler

I see a lot of parallels between Tywin and Ned in this theory as they are both claiming a child as their own, despite their pride/honor, for their own almost opposite reasons. So Ned was keeping a secret as Lyanna's deathbed wish, right? Could it have been Tyrion's mother's deathbed wish that Tywin let him live? It would complete that parallel, and a Lannister always pays his debts, so he would've kept any promise he made her.

[ISiddiqui]

Since the Tyrion part is all speculation (nothing happens in any of the future books to make it more or less likely - though the comment is made in Dance with Dragons) I won't spoiler tag this, but this seems to buttress the theory:

Joanna Lannister - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

"According to Barristan Selmy, Aerys lusted for Joanna Lannister, something that caused further friction between the King and his Hand. At the wedding of Tywin to Joanna, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the First Night tradition was banned and took certain liberties in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride."

[MrBug708]

Spoiler

In book 1 (and the HBO show), Tywin does flat out say "Because you are a Lannister and my son", which would be a huge contradiction"

[Autumn]

I would hope that doesn't turn out to be the case with Tyrion. That would be stretching things too far, and I agree that it doesn't sit well with Tywin's character.

Spoiler

I like the idea that Tyrion is important because he'st eh only one who took the time to *learn* about dragons, not because of some magic of his blood. Besides, it seems we already have the three heads of the dragon, if Jon is of dragon blood, so Tyrion isn't needed for that role.

[BrianD]

I'm amazed at how I have gone from pretty seriously disliking these books through 2-3 to really loving them. There have been so many subtleties that I have missed, and so much pre-planning/foreshadowing throughout the series. I just finished a re-read of the whole series and still routinely get surprised by what I am finding to be "common theories".

[Bad-example]

Not going to 'spoiler' a theory, but it seems like a pretty strong possibility that Jon's mind migrated to Ghost when he died. That should be a pit stop to Jon taking control of Stannis. Melisandre has been confused by her visions of both Stannis and Jon Snow, and Jon becoming Stannis would explain that and also really make him 'reborn'.

[ISiddiqui]

I'd be sad of Jon took over Stannis, because I kind of like the character of Stannis better than Jon, to be honest.

[Autumn]

I can't see him taking over Stannis. I think Mel is just mistaken about Stannis. When she looks in her flames for AA, she sees Jon. Is there any suggestion in the text for her to be right about Stannis?

And bad-example, the reason to spoiler wouldn't be your theory, but the spoiler you give for waht happens in the book! I hope no one reads this thread if they haven't read ADoD, though.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'd be sad of Jon took over Stannis, because I kind of like the character of Stannis better than Jon, to be honest.

Interesting thought #1: I think you are vastly in the minority on that, but to each their own...which led to...

Interesting thought #2: We could have a "Would You Rather..." bracket for ASOIAF, but re-word that to "Which Character Do You Prefer..."...which led to...

Interesting thought #3: Would such a bracket result in anything besides a Tyrion landslide victory?

[spleen1015]

There's a spoiler warning in the thread title. If you read something you shouldn't, then it is on you.

I don't see Jon taking over Stannis' body. I think it is as simple as Melisandre resurrecting him just like we seen the red priest doing.

[spleen1015]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Interesting thought #1: I think you are vastly in the minority on that, but to each their own...which led to...

Interesting thought #2: We could have a "Would You Rather..." bracket for ASOIAF, but re-word that to "Which Character Do You Prefer..."...which led to...

Interesting thought #3: Would such a bracket result in anything besides a Tyrion landslide victory?

Yeah, a bracket like that is like the The Wire bracket that Grantland did. Omar was going to win before it even got started.

I'm sure there are lots of folks like me who's favorite character was Tyrion before the show and that was multiplied 10 fold after seeing him on the show.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I can't see him taking over Stannis. I think Mel is just mistaken about Stannis. When she looks in her flames for AA, she sees Jon. Is there any suggestion in the text for her to be right about Stannis?

(edit: I think I read that wrong)

And I love looking over the ASOF wiki, because you find out stuff like this:

Rhaelle Targaryen - A Wiki of Ice and Fire

So Stannis is "blood of the dragon" through his grandmother... though I seriously doubt he is Azor Ahai reborn.

[DaddyTorgo]

As far as #1, I had totally forgotten this until I reread that page:

Spoiler

As noted in the Prophecies section, this single reference appears to draw a direct connection between the story of Bael the Bard and the winter rose (in which a Stark daughter is stolen from the family, only to give the House a son by her lover), Lyanna Stark (who is associated with the blue winter roses and with Rhaegar), and Jon Snow (who is on the Wall). While it may simply be hinting at Jon’s presence on the Wall, given the significance of the blue rose that we learn of in A Clash of Kings, we find it a promising piece of evidence.

[cschex]

As to the Joanna Lannister/Aerys connections that Selmy refers to, I have a crackpot theory that it isn't Tyrion who is Aerys', but instead the twins (it would make sense with the timing of the "bedding ritual". It would also lead a whole new perspective on Jaime killing Aerys.

[Jughead Spock]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

The Red Wedding still ranks as the most pissed off I've ever been at a fiction book.

Totally late to the party here, but


BIG


RED


X.


Geezus. Then when the Arya chapter ended with

Spoiler

'his axe caught her in the back of the head'

, I just about gave up. Still kinda pissed/bummed.

[JPhillips]

If you gave up after that Arya moment you may want to continue.

[ISiddiqui]

I'd say so as well .

Btw, in leaked show news - apparently Edmure Tully and the Blackfish are being cast for next season!! Hooray!!

[cschex]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I'd say so as well .

Btw, in leaked show news - apparently Edmure Tully and the Blackfish are being cast for next season!! Hooray!!

Also, they are apparently soliciting for short (under 5 ft) adults for extras. I wonder if we are going to see cranogmen?

[ISiddiqui]

It seems like it... we knew Edmure had to be cast (otherwise how can you do the RW?), but the rest are gravy - considering that the show seems to veer hear and there from the books, & because just about every reader of the books I know loves the Blackfish.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Edmure is definitely a necessity. The Blackfish is definitely a fan favorite. Let's be honest, he's by far the coolest of all the Tullys. That said, a lot of his awesomeness is based on stuff that he would have already done - acting as Robb's chief scout and what not. Still, it'd be great to have him.

[ISiddiqui]

Him swimming under the Water Gate rather than get captured was pretty badass.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Him swimming under the Water Gate rather than get captured was pretty badass.

Most definitely. I really hope he shows back up again somewhere.

I really enjoyed that whole sequence. Jamie releasing Edmure so that he could go back and take Riverrun from the Blackfish - knowing that the Blackfish would never yield, but Edmure would totally to do so given they had his wife - was pure Tywin thinking.

[ISiddiqui]

Hey, maybe he'll turn up at Storm's End... enemy of his enemy?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Hey, maybe he'll turn up at Storm's End... enemy of his enemy?

My memory is fading on this... I know Stanis took Storms End in "Clash of Kings", during the whole Edric Storm/Courtnay Penrose situation. But after he left it to attack Kings Landing, what happened to it?

I think the Lannisters/Tyrells took it back over no?

And at the end of "Dance", Aegon was taking the Gold Company over to take it back?

So, are you thinking the Blackfish would hook up with those guys?

[ISiddiqui]

Apparently Aegon Targaryen is at Storm's End (based on preview chapters of the Winds of Winter).

So I think he may decide to link up to get rid of the Lannisters. Don't seem him going North to the blizzard that Stannis is in, or to the Iron Islands.

Though he may just end up with Lady Stoneheart and the late (many times over) Beric Dondarrion's companions.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

My memory is fading on this... I know Stanis took Storms End in "Clash of Kings", during the whole Edric Storm/Courtnay Penrose situation. But after he left it to attack Kings Landing, what happened to it?

I think the Lannisters/Tyrells took it back over no?

And at the end of "Dance", Aegon was taking the Gold Company over to take it back?

So, are you thinking the Blackfish would hook up with those guys?

Stannis has held Storm's End since Book 2. It's possible they mention who's holding it for him at some point but if so I can't renember who. Mace Tyrell went to retake it in AFFC, but gave up the siege to return to King's Landing, where we find him at the end of Dance.

I don't know where the Blackfish would go. He didn't really have anything other than the Tullies he seemed to care about, so you'd think maybe he'd hook up with some group that could try to rescue Edmure on his way to Casterly Rock. I don't know who would be agreeable to that that would have sufficient force and interest to help him to accomplish that.

[sabotai]

Was talking to a friend of mine about the books today and found out that I really have forgotten quite a lot of it. Time to start over from the beginning.

[Autumn]

Yeah this is a series that is definitely worth a reread. I read them so differently the second time through and saw so much that I was ignorant of the first time. It's fascinating. You realize that the tales people tell are actually the key to the whole thing.

[Honolulu_Blue]

I have read the first three books over at least 4-5 times and the fourth book 3-4 times. I pick up new things all of the time. I usually just listen to them on my iPod when doing chores, walking the dog or what not.

[lordscarlet]

Hopefully this isn't a repost:

[DaddyTorgo]

[spleen1015]

Dorne.... is bullshit.

[saldana]

i guess i am pretty confused, but that may be due to me only being halfway through Dances, but all the speculation about Jon's parentage has been answered. One of the first chapters in Dances is Davos talking to the lord of Sisterton (i think), and the lord tells him the story of Eddard's bastard...Jon's mom was a fishermans daughter.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by saldana

i guess i am pretty confused, but that may be due to me only being halfway through Dances, but all the speculation about Jon's parentage has been answered. One of the first chapters in Dances is Davos talking to the lord of Sisterton (i think), and the lord tells him the story of Eddard's bastard...Jon's mom was a fishermans daughter.

I think it's all speculation at this point. There are lots of rumors. Someone also said in "Storm of Swords" that Jon's mom was someone related to or near the Dayne's.

The strongest speculations has always been he's the son of Rhaeger and Lyanna. When Lyanna whisperes "Promise me, Ned..." She was making him promise her that he'd keep her son safe and that's why he declared Jon his bastard. Only way to keep him safe, despite the stain on his honor. Ned was shown, over and over again, that he'd let his precious honor get dragged through the mud to protect the people he loves. Of course, there is one person still alive who knows what happened when Ned found Lyanna, Howland Reed, and we've never met him.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by saldana

i guess i am pretty confused, but that may be due to me only being halfway through Dances, but all the speculation about Jon's parentage has been answered. One of the first chapters in Dances is Davos talking to the lord of Sisterton (i think), and the lord tells him the story of Eddard's bastard...Jon's mom was a fishermans daughter.

How would the lord know conclusively? It's all just gossip and rumors that people are passing around - nobody knows the truth except a) the mother, b) the father, c) someone who witnessed the birth or the immediate aftermath.

If you buy the prevailing fan-theory then the mother and father are both dead, as is one of two people who witnessed the immediate aftermath of the birth and took the newborn from its mother's arms. So everybody is hanging their metaphorical hat on that second person being the source of a reveal.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I think it's all speculation at this point. There are lots of rumors. Someone also said in "Storm of Swords" that Jon's mom was someone related to or near the Dayne's.

The strongest speculations has always been he's the son of Rhaeger and Lyanna. When Lyanna whisperes "Promise me, Ned..." She was making him promise her that he'd keep her son safe and that's why he declared Jon his bastard. Only way to keep him safe, despite the stain on his honor. Ned was shown, over and over again, that he'd let his precious honor get dragged through the mud to protect the people he loves. Of course, there is one person still alive who knows what happened when Ned found Lyanna, Howland Reed, and we've never met him.

Oh - clearly I didn't read through your post. I was trying to keep it more vague and not name names in my reply. Hahaha.

[PilotMan]

I finally finished Dance and now feel like I can safely read this thread. Despite the slowness of book 4 and the first 400 or so pages of Dance being terribly slow the book picked up and seemed like it was heading somewhere toward the end.

[MrBug708]

Is there any update in the next book?

[JAG]

It's only been a year and a few months since Dance was released, so we've still got a few years to go at least I would think. He hasn't provided an update other than saying he is working on it as far as I know

[PraetorianX]

Last I heard he was aiming for sometime in 2014.

[Autumn]

It certainly ended better than it started (DoD). I don't expect to be wowed by further books anymore, though, not like the first three. Everything there was so perfectly wove, and going back and reading it again just made you realized how well planned it was. Now I feel like he's just winging it.

[spleen1015]

I can't remember if I posted this here or not.

I was disappointed with the way DoD ended because you can't set it up that Tyrion is on his way to meet Dany and not have it happen in this book. I think it should have been the climax of this book.

[Autumn]

Climax? I htought it should have happened in the first 50 pages. I assumed that's what this book was going to be about! One after another reaching Dany. Not one after another slowly moving a bit closer to Dany.

[Zinto]

I just finished the third book and I have to say I am completely addicted. The last chapter and the epilogue has me excited but I am not sure how excited I am about the next two books being split in half the way it is.

[Vince, Pt. II]

Originally Posted by Autumn

Climax? I htought it should have happened in the first 50 pages. I assumed that's what this book was going to be about! One after another reaching Dany. Not one after another slowly moving a bit closer to Dany.

It did sort of have a Robert Jordan/Wheel of Time feel to it in this regard.