Werewolf XLV - ROME! (Game over, post 3425)

[Autumn]

On the subject of arrests, I agree that we should publicly decide on two people to arrest, leaving it up to the consuls has not worked. If we have extremely wealthy people who are not actively playing, it may be in our favor to arrest them. Of course that could backfire. Still, having wealth and not hiring anybody is nearly as bad as the traitors having the wealth. Lack of services and not using services well seems to be killing us in this game. That would suggest arresting Marcus Vaughnus and Lonsestar Girlus to me. Both have been rather quiet and not contributed to our success (hah).

In terms of who I suspect, I have bad feelings for Neonus Chaosus, Abeus Anxietus, Barkeepus and Grammus Atticus. But I don't have any hard reasons for that. I would support arresting any of them though if others have other reasons to suspect them.

[Autumn]

Hoopus Guyus - can you tell us how you used the horses yesterday?

[hoopsguy]

Autumn, I already mentioned it and it isn't a very happy story - I sent them to Alan who is unfortunately dead. Pretty long shot, I know.

The most frustrating part about it to me is that I initially went away from communicating with another player because I was worried that they would be a better target for death. But if I had gone through the suit review that I'm doing right now there is no way that I would have gone with Alan.

[Autumn]

Sorry for spamming, I'm trying to post all myu thoughts and then get to work.

On services, I would like to see our wealthiest members agree to bid for the services that the Senate suggests to them. I think we can't afford to leave this in the dark. We have to know that we have secured certain services, and then we can at least restrain the actions of the traitors if not reveal them.

Just to get a proposal out there, I would suggest that:

Dodgerus Chickus bid for Maximus Maximus, ex-legionaire

Imus TheCrewus bid for (can he bid from jail?) Vitus AVidus, ex-legionnaire

Marcus Vaughnus bid for Ardentus Enthiastus, lawyer

Coffeus Warlordus bid for Shmidtyus, lawyer

Ironus Headus bid for Durus Pimpus, sex slaves

Lonestar Girlus bid for Macro Gothicus, ex-barbarian

Schmidtyus Schmidtyus bid for Balbus Senna, political philosopher (do we know what that guy does?)

I would like to suggest that we insist on the above, and that we then arrest any of these citizens who don't do as ask. Then at least we can be arresting senators for a reason. We can then ask what they did with their services, and arrest them if not used loyally.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Autumn, I already mentioned it and it isn't a very happy story - I sent them to Alan who is unfortunately dead. Pretty long shot, I know.

The most frustrating part about it to me is that I initially went away from communicating with another player because I was worried that they would be a better target for death. But if I had gone through the suit review that I'm doing right now there is no way that I would have gone with Alan.

Oh yes, I remmeber you saying that, thank you. Unfortunately it doesn't allow anyone to corroborate your story, which is either unfortunate or convenient ;-)

[hoopsguy]

Why LSG with the ex-barbarian?

Also, Schmidty has already had the Philosopher once. Does it make sense for him to monopolize it as compared to someone else hiring him so they can cross-vouch on the capabilities of that guy?

[Peregrine]

Autumn, I have to say I'm very suspicious about your list. All the military/killer type roles seem to go to someone who's either in the dock already or under suspicion. What's going on with that?

[hoopsguy]

Here is the wealth movement by Day.

Day 1 - we see where everyone starts. No services available, no kills
Day 2 - no changes
Day 3 - we have two deaths, Swaggs and SnDvls. KWhit, on the strength of his 5-1 showing in lawsuits, moves up a rank. Narcizo also moves up a rank
Day 4 - we have one death, Bullet. MarcV moves up a rank, and KWhit again moves up a rank (7-0 in suits). Also, the total number of entries on the "Moderate Wealth" shrinks from 8 to 7

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Narcizo

With 24 players left we need at least 13 votes to execute. With at least two players probably not even here and ITC voting against that probably means that only 9 other people have to vote to acquit or not vote at all and it will fail. If the wolves have a lawyer that could go down to only 6 votes not being placed. (I forget does the lawyer get to know who's using their services?)

Basically I don't think we're going to get an execution here.

Unfortunately, it seems we have to either somehow light a fire under the inactive players, or execute them. If they're loyal but inactive they're still hurting us. I would plead that any of the inactive, non-voting members start contributing publicly soon, as I don't really want to waste executions on another loyal member, but I don't want to be unable to execute a traitor because of non-voters.

It also makes it crucial to have the lawyers in loyal hands.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Autumn, I have to say I'm very suspicious about your list. All the military/killer type roles seem to go to someone who's either in the dock already or under suspicion. What's going on with that?

I don't care who goes with which service. I have listed all the Wealthiest, and Extremely Wealthy senators. I have then listed the services that seem most crucial. I have assigned them one to one because i dont' want to see any more mess ups where someone can say "oh well we bid on the same person." If you would like to rearranget he list, feel free. I just want the Senators to promise to follow a public list, with no mixups or mistakes.

That way if someone uses the military/killer role, we can know who did it and execute them.

[Peregrine]

Also, posting for the arrest of "extremely wealthy people who are not actively playing" seems like it could be just what the wolves want, we seem to be slowly executing or at least voting on wealthy players, which would remove people who could potentially outbid the bad guys for vital services.

Just to get something started, based on your last two posts, I'll put in my unofficial vote for Autumn to be arrested.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Why LSG with the ex-barbarian?

Also, Schmidty has already had the Philosopher once. Does it make sense for him to monopolize it as compared to someone else hiring him so they can cross-vouch on the capabilities of that guy?

Again, I just lined them up randomly. Cross-vouching makes sense, I should have paid attention to that sort of thing.

I didn't pair them up for any reason, I just went down the two lists. Again, I don't care how we pair them up as long as there's no confusion.

[hoopsguy]

And I have complete records for people in lawsuits. I can publish this information if people think it should be made publicly available. Personally, I think there is probably someone working on the Tarqs side who is doing this privately (it is totally in their best interest to do so) so I would like to make this public. But by doing so I am providing the makings of a lawsuit roadmap.

The top two guys, far and away, are AlanT (now deceased) and KWhit.

Alan was 5-0 with wins against KWhit (only one to do so), me, Rum, Barkeep, and Crew

KWhit is 12-1 with wins against half the Senate and his only loss to Alan.

There have been two instances of repeat lawsuits - the same guy won in both instances.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

Also, posting for the arrest of "extremely wealthy people who are not actively playing" seems like it could be just what the wolves want, we seem to be slowly executing or at least voting on wealthy players, which would remove people who could potentially outbid the bad guys for vital services.

Just to get something started, based on your last two posts, I'll put in my unofficial vote for Autumn to be arrested.

I can certainly see that, and that's the danger of voicing that opinion. However, given that the wealthiest members seem to be either not really playing, or traitors I don't see a better course. If it scares them into being active and promising to bid for and use important services as directed by the Senate, let's not arrest them. If they continue to be silent, and not bidding for services, I don't see how it can hurt us to get rid of them.

You're perfectly correct, a traitor could suggest the same thing, knowing it would boost somebody in their ranks. I hate to take that risk, and hope that with their names in the air, these wealthy members will come forth and start showing their loyalty.

[Peregrine]

I do agree that there are some suspicious people among the wealthy, I'm just saying we need to be going after those people by name - LoneStarGirl immediately pops out to my mind instead of in general.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by Autumn

On services, I would like to see our wealthiest members agree to bid for the services that the Senate suggests to them. I think we can't afford to leave this in the dark. We have to know that we have secured certain services, and then we can at least restrain the actions of the traitors if not reveal them.

Here's the problem with that. We pretty much know what everything does at this point. Do we want to give the exact information on who is buying what to the traitors? Woulda been a not bad idea earlier when we didn't know what did what, but now I think it's prolly not in our best interest.

[KWhit]

Help me understand the benefit of announcing who is bidding on the services. Okay, so let's just say that Dodgerus Chickus and Imus the Crewus get the bodyguards as you suggest. Then what?

Then we tell DC and ITC who they must use the bodyguards on? That's giving the Tarqs WAY too much information. Then they can just kill someone else.

I guess I may just be missing the strategy here.

[KWhit]

Yeah. What CW said.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by Peregrine

I do agree that there are some suspicious people among the wealthy, I'm just saying we need to be going after those people by name - LoneStarGirl immediately pops out to my mind instead of in general.

Yes, I proposed Lonestarus Girlus and Marcus Vaughnus specifically in that post. I would have suggested Imus TheCrewus too if he wasn't already arrested. I hate to have another Bulletus Spongeus issue, but I guess I will vote to execute if I don't hear more from Imus today, specifically an explanation of his inactivity, and a promise to bid as the Senate directs him.

[path12]

I'm not in favor of having someone bid on a specific service just because they are rich......one of the things that are hampering us right now is the fact that the richest of us seem also to be some of the least active. I don't trust them frankly to make the move that needs to be made.

Along those same lines and in reference to Hoops' comments about the suits, I say let KWhit make as many lawsuits as he wants and get to be one of the richest of us -- he's active in the game and he does have a vouch from CW that hasn't been countered. Arrest fiasco aside, I trust him to bid for the services that we need the senate to have instead of the Tarqs.

As for consul, I will keep my options open for now, though I do like the idea of CW and Chief at the moment. I would be open to the position if there are those who find me trustworthy enough to openly arrest someone, but I do not think I am going to pursue it further than mentioning it here.

If we toss the rich that are not participating, might those wealth categories be assumed by those underneath who are more active? That question is the one that is guiding my thinking about ITC right now. The fact that he has not bid for any services does not sit well with me.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by path12

If we toss the rich that are not participating, might those wealth categories be assumed by those underneath who are more active?

Yes, that is how it works. Basically, we all move up a bit when a rich guy dies.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Help me understand the benefit of announcing who is bidding on the services. Okay, so let's just say that Dodgerus Chickus and Imus the Crewus get the bodyguards as you suggest. Then what?

Then we tell DC and ITC who they must use the bodyguards on? That's giving the Tarqs WAY too much information. Then they can just kill someone else.

I guess I may just be missing the strategy here.

I'm willing to find holes in this plan, but here''s my thoughts.

No, we wouldn't tell them who to bodyguard - obviously that would backfire against us. We wouldn't tell who to block with the sex slaves. I'm not remembering off the top of my head what the others do.

But now we know who has the services. We can keep the killers out of the traitors hands, and hte sex slaves out of their hands. That's one advantage. If we can keep them from getting those services we have an advantage. The only way to do that I think is to coordinate bidding.

The second advantage is we can then later demand accounting for how those services were used. It may not give us a airtight case. But if Senator A wins the services of the bodyguard and uses it on someone useless, that gives us some evidence. If Senator A uses it on someone and the traitors don't make a kill, that gives us evidence. If Senator A bids for the killer, and someone dies, that's pretty airtight. If Senator B bids for hte sex slaves, and somebody reports having thier action blocked, that's evidence.

The third advantage is that senators won't have the excuse of saying they didn't bother bidding for a service, as some of our wealthier senators have said. If they're loyal, we'll be forcing them to be useful as well. If they're traitors they won't be able to hide behind this excuse.

It occurs to me though that if it would be helpful to corroborate whether Imus, for example, has bid on anything. If he was a traitor we certainly would have bid on services and secretly used them. Can we construct a list that wil tell us whether he's lying or simply inactive?

[hoopsguy]

To expand on what KWhit just said, the wealth is relative. Cronin is listing the categories based on alphabetical order but each of us (almost certainly) has an absolute wealth number associated with them. That number rises and falls with lawsuits in some undetermined way. As the wealth changes, relative to our peers, we have the ability to move up and down the ladder.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by path12

Along those same lines and in reference to Hoops' comments about the suits, I say let KWhit make as many lawsuits as he wants and get to be one of the richest of us -- he's active in the game and he does have a vouch from CW that hasn't been countered. Arrest fiasco aside, I trust him to bid for the services that we need the senate to have instead of the Tarqs.

I obviously would be happy with that. I don't know that I am that well trusted yet by the group.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by path12

I'm not in favor of having someone bid on a specific service just because they are rich......one of the things that are hampering us right now is the fact that the richest of us seem also to be some of the least active. I don't trust them frankly to make the move that needs to be made.

Which is why we should do this. If they don't do what we ask, arrest them and execute them. Letting them be inactive isn't any better than asking them to be active and them being inactive. If we don't ask them to bid for something in particular, it makes it too unclear who has won the service.

Along those same lines and in reference to Hoops' comments about the suits, I say let KWhit make as many lawsuits as he wants and get to be one of the richest of us -- he's active in the game and he does have a vouch from CW that hasn't been countered. Arrest fiasco aside, I trust him to bid for the services that we need the senate to have instead of the Tarqs.

I'm not against that idea, but he can only bid for one service. We need to get all of the important services in our hands.

If we toss the rich that are not participating, might those wealth categories be assumed by those underneath who are more active? That question is the one that is guiding my thinking about ITC right now. The fact that he has not bid for any services does not sit well with me.

It seems ohter people would move up. We have a better than even chance of it being a loyal member rather than a traitor, but still it's a risk. I again will state that I wish all of these rather inactive wealthy people would speak up and make promises of how they will use their wealth so we can avoid this risk.

[hoopsguy]

KWhit, I'm OK with it. But it is putting you in a very high-risk category to the Tarqs if you are a loyal Roman. They have already taken down one active player who was successful in lawsuits (Alan).

Maybe their tactics change, maybe I'm not correctly interpreting their reasons for going after Alan. But I definitely see it as a plan that is incurring a reasonable amount of risk on your part.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'm willing to find holes in this plan, but here''s my thoughts.

No, we wouldn't tell them who to bodyguard - obviously that would backfire against us. We wouldn't tell who to block with the sex slaves. I'm not remembering off the top of my head what the others do.

But now we know who has the services. We can keep the killers out of the traitors hands, and hte sex slaves out of their hands. That's one advantage. If we can keep them from getting those services we have an advantage. The only way to do that I think is to coordinate bidding.

The second advantage is we can then later demand accounting for how those services were used. It may not give us a airtight case. But if Senator A wins the services of the bodyguard and uses it on someone useless, that gives us some evidence. If Senator A uses it on someone and the traitors don't make a kill, that gives us evidence. If Senator A bids for the killer, and someone dies, that's pretty airtight. If Senator B bids for hte sex slaves, and somebody reports having thier action blocked, that's evidence.

The third advantage is that senators won't have the excuse of saying they didn't bother bidding for a service, as some of our wealthier senators have said. If they're loyal, we'll be forcing them to be useful as well. If they're traitors they won't be able to hide behind this excuse.

It occurs to me though that if it would be helpful to corroborate whether Imus, for example, has bid on anything. If he was a traitor we certainly would have bid on services and secretly used them. Can we construct a list that wil tell us whether he's lying or simply inactive?

I see what you're saying. And I think it makes sense from the point of view of the service that gives the sword kill. It would be nice to always know who bid on that and won.

I worry, however, about the bodyguards. I'm not sure I trust a couple of the richer people among us. And if we simply give a body guard to a Tarq, that is bad news. It's much easier for a Tarq to misuse a bodyguard and it go unnoticed than it would be for them to use the killer.

[Tyrith]

At this point KWhit is already a huge target for the Tarqs if he's on our side just because of how important he's been to the discussion in the game. So far he's really been one of the key people in figuring out what's going on. There is such a thing as putting too many eggs in one basket, which I wouldn't want to do with KWhit...but he's certainly in position to help us out, so why not.

Only problem is...what do we do if he doesn't die?

[Autumn]

I'm interested in knowing who had the lawyers' services yesterday and how they used them.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

KWhit, I'm OK with it. But it is putting you in a very high-risk category to the Tarqs if you are a loyal Roman. They have already taken down one active player who was successful in lawsuits (Alan).

Maybe their tactics change, maybe I'm not correctly interpreting their reasons for going after Alan. But I definitely see it as a plan that is incurring a reasonable amount of risk on your part.

Yes. I think I'm already in a lot of danger - consul, active, somewhat trusted, and pretty darn good at lawsuits.

I am already a prime candidate for a Tarq kill. I would need to either bid on a bodyguard (and be pretty much assured to get one based on my wealth) or have the winner of the bodyguard send it to me.

Not sure if that makes sense or not, but I know I'm already a target, and this would up the ante quite a bit.

[Autumn]

KWhit:

True, the killer role is the one that is most vital. But we have to have all the Wealthiest members bid on something to make sure they don't outbid each other.

And if we don't bid for the sex slave, then that person could block an important action, and muddy the waters.

Also, I think I'd rather have a traitor end up with the bodyguard and give us evidence against htem then let hte bidding be random and never be sure who had the body guard and who the traitor is. The voting records in this game don't seem to be giving us much information, we need as much evidence as we can gather.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Tyrith

Only problem is...what do we do if he doesn't die?

Huh?

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by Autumn

KWhit:

True, the killer role is the one that is most vital. But we have to have all the Wealthiest members bid on something to make sure they don't outbid each other.

And if we don't bid for the sex slave, then that person could block an important action, and muddy the waters.

Also, I think I'd rather have a traitor end up with the bodyguard and give us evidence against htem then let hte bidding be random and never be sure who had the body guard and who the traitor is. The voting records in this game don't seem to be giving us much information, we need as much evidence as we can gather.

I could go along with that. What I'm afraid of is the rich, inactive people. I'm afraid they won't be around to follow our plan. So we'd need to have backup bidders for each service to fill in the gaps.

[ImTheCrew]

kwhit=bad

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

kwhit=bad

And why do you say that?

[Coffee Warlord]

Random lines like that rule.

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by Autumn

KWhit:

True, the killer role is the one that is most vital. But we have to have all the Wealthiest members bid on something to make sure they don't outbid each other.

And if we don't bid for the sex slave, then that person could block an important action, and muddy the waters.

Also, I think I'd rather have a traitor end up with the bodyguard and give us evidence against htem then let hte bidding be random and never be sure who had the body guard and who the traitor is. The voting records in this game don't seem to be giving us much information, we need as much evidence as we can gather.

i would do this, if we could get DC and whoever the other Wealthiest person is.

[KWhit]

Totally. Hey, at least he posted something.

[Autumn]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

i would do this, if we could get DC and whoever the other Wealthiest person is.

I'd like to hear more from Senator Imus, as I would best like to use his wealth to serve the Republic. However, I must say I'm not feeling too lenient in his direction. Looking at the Extremely Wealthy group I feel good about everyone in this group except for Lonestarus Girlus, so I wouldn't mind having one of them move up to Wealthiest status. I'd rather have an active, trusted member up there.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

kwhit=bad

Still waiting on an answer as to why you think so.....

[ImTheCrew]

i voted for you to consul and you did a terrible job of it putting one very Loyal Senator in jail....throw me off a cliff all it will prove is that we are now down another good person

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'd like to hear more from Senator Imus, as I would best like to use his wealth to serve the Republic. However, I must say I'm not feeling too lenient in his direction. Looking at the Extremely Wealthy group I feel good about everyone in this group except for Lonestarus Girlus, so I wouldn't mind having one of them move up to Wealthiest status. I'd rather have an active, trusted member up there.

Id follow the majority of the repulic in what to do and services to buy to show that i am a good guy

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by Autumn

I'd like to hear more from Senator Imus, as I would best like to use his wealth to serve the Republic. However, I must say I'm not feeling too lenient in his direction. Looking at the Extremely Wealthy group I feel good about everyone in this group except for Lonestarus Girlus, so I wouldn't mind having one of them move up to Wealthiest status. I'd rather have an active, trusted member up there.

But Would you kill an good "inactive" player just to get a "active" player up in the ranks not knowing if hes good or bad?

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by hoopsguy

Cronin, are the services determined prior to the execution? So if ImTheCrew has the winning bid for a service at the end of the day, but is also slated to be executed, does he retain the service or does it fall to the next person on the wealth list?

Services are determined first. Players in jail may not bid on services.

[KWhit]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

throw me off a cliff all it will prove is that we are now down another good person

Okay.

Vote throw ImTheCrewus off a cliff.

[ImTheCrew]

Originally Posted by KWhit

Okay.

Vote throw ImTheCrewus off a cliff.

wouldnt expect anythig else.. way to go kwhit

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Grammaticus

It is post 918



I figured by how the other suits are situated it would be on the waiting list of cases heard tomorrow??

Thanks your honor, the Maximus Judgus

The courts will hear these two cases today, in an emergency session. People will just have to work overtime. Apologies for the oversight.

[hoopsguy]

Crew, you haven't bid on services. You haven't been involved with lawsuits. You've had a potentially powerful position in the game (one of the two wealthiest as of today) and haven't used it to our advantage or communicated with people. There are reasons that Romans - they aren't all Tarqs, right? - are voting for you to be kicked off the cliff.

For better or worse (I think better) Werewolf is a community game, which implies that you work as part of the bigger whole.

Are you going to have an interest in doing this going forward? Are you going to have availability to do so in coming days?

I'm not wild that you are the only choice we have here today (same as yesterday, for all practical purposes) but given that we do have the option what kind of defense can you offer other than "I'm good, KWhit is bad"?

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by ImTheCrew

wouldnt expect anythig else.. way to go kwhit

Unless you're going to be a bit more helpful than you are, why shouldn't we have you killed?

[Neon_Chaos]

Caught up, finally.

Anyway. That was about 25 pages worth of NOTHING.

Vote Narcizo as Consul
Vote Dodgerchick as Consul

And since we don't get to find out what role everyone else is playing when they die, I'd rather have people ALIVE.

Vote to FREE ITC.