The official tournament time thread

[MizzouRah]

F'n Jayhawks!!!!!!!!

[sterlingice]

Christ, Bill. Get the starters out of there. We don't need anyone hurt.

SI

[Radii]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'd put Self in that category, too. This is likely to be 5 E8's in 9 years but no F4's.

SI

Self gets a lot of credit for Illinois' 2005 team i'd assume.

Is Billy Donovan on the list, or just one lucky stretch?

I assume Roy and Coach K are automatic? Calhoun comes to mind even though I can't stand him. Pitino is a really, really, really good college coach.

[cartman]

/dons the homer hat

Rick Barnes has been pretty impressive over the last 7 seasons:

5 25+ win seasons
2 30+ win seasons
5 Sweet 16s
3 Elite 8s

Two national players of the year (one consensus)
Four players selected as lottery picks in the NBA draft
Six players selected to various first team All-American lists

/removes homer hat

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Radii

Self gets a lot of credit for Illinois' 2005 team i'd assume.

Is Billy Donovan on the list, or just one lucky stretch?

I assume Roy and Coach K are automatic? Calhoun comes to mind even though I can't stand him. Pitino is a really, really, really good college coach.

Krew-ja-woo-ski is easily #1, I would think. Does Roy even make the list if he doesn't win it all a couple of years ago? Or is he down there with Howland and Self in the "can't win it" category? I think Tom Izzo has to be there- he's maybe the best big school X's and O's coach but doesn't recruit like the big boys. Rick Pitino is really good when in college but he kept flirting with the NBA, tho it seems like maybe he's back in college for good.

I just don't give Donovan that much credit- he just doesn't have any sustained success yet. Maybe in 10 years, but not yet. He had one great flukish year about 10 ago, iirc. But it looks like 2 championships sandwiched by crap. Depends on what we see for the next few years, I guess.

SI

[Radii]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hes/index.html

from the end of last year, with the qualification of "best right now", Mandel's list:

1. Billy Donovan, Florida
2. Roy Williams, North Carolina
3. Jim Calhoun, UConn
4. Mike Krzyzewski, Duke
5. Rick Pitino, Louisville
6. Tom Izzo, Michigan State:
7. Ben Howland, UCLA
8. John Calipari, Memphis
9. Thad Matta, Ohio State
10. Billy Gillispie, Kentucky

and Just missed: Michigan's John Beilein, Kansas' Bill Self, USC's Tim Floyd, Gonzaga's Mark Few, Wisconsin's Bo Ryan.


Honestly I discount Donovan quite a bit until he builds up again, and Calhoun just hasn't had the success in the last 5-6 years. I think Roy, Coach K, Pitino, and Izzo are pretty much coaches I couldn't find any way to exclude from my top 5. Howland, Matta and Self the next 3 on the list after that first four I think. UCLA appears to be back at the top to stay, with consistancy, for the first time in a long time, so I probalby put Howland in the top 5 for now.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cartman

/dons the homer hat

Rick Barnes has been pretty impressive over the last 7 seasons:

5 25+ win seasons
2 30+ win seasons
5 Sweet 16s
3 Elite 8s

/removes homer hat

Bill Self's last 10 (split between 2 Tulsa, 3 Illinois, 5 Kansas seasons):

10 of 10 with 20 wins
7 with 25
3 with 30

8 Conference titles, shared or won

5 Elite 8's

Thanks for playing, Rick

SI

[cartman]

Oh, I look forward to the third act of the trilogy in the Championship Game, SI...

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by cartman

Oh, I look forward to the third act of the trilogy in the Championship Game, SI...

I'd be all for it, because it would mean we'd have made the title game (tho I'd not be real happy about doing it in San Antonio). Just celebrating tonight and hoping for a win Sunday. Gotta get to the Final Four first

SI

[cartman]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'd be all for it, because it would mean we'd have made the title game (tho I'd not be real happy about doing it in San Antonio). Just celebrating tonight and hoping for a win Sunday. Gotta get to the Final Four first

SI

And the last time Kansas made the Final Four, so did Texas.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Does Roy even make the list if he doesn't win it all a couple of years ago?

I think he does but perhaps not as resoundingly. It can be demoralizing in march when your team seems to be top 5 every year and seems to fall short every year, but Roy had Kansas seemingly in the top 5 every year and often deep in the tournament for almost 15 years, which not many coaches can do, even if he didn't get a title.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by cartman

Oh, I look forward to the third act of the trilogy in the Championship Game, SI...

Its too bad they don't have a 3rd place game anymore, so Texas and Kansas could play for 3rd to warm up the crowd for UCLA/UNC in the title game.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

I'd be all for it, because it would mean we'd have made the title game (tho I'd not be real happy about doing it in San Antonio). Just celebrating tonight and hoping for a win Sunday. Gotta get to the Final Four first

SI

Did you hear me? Screw Kansas!

I really like Bill Self btw...

[cartman]

Originally Posted by Radii

Its too bad they don't have a 3rd place game anymore, so Texas and Kansas could play for 3rd to warm up the crowd for UCLA/UNC in the title game.

In the brackets I filled, I had UNC beating Texas in the championship game.

[Groundhog]

Just finished watching the Davidson-Wisconsin game, which was broadcast delayed over here. Wow. Curry is just amazing. If a guy like him can't make it in the NBA, something is wrong with the NBA.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

F'n Jayhawks!!!!!!!!

Quinn Snyder

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by Radii

Calhoun just hasn't had the success in the last 5-6 years.

I'd agree that the program has fallen off slightly the last two years, but UConn has a national title ('04) and an elite 8 ('06) in the last 4 years. They won't be down long.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Radii

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hes/index.html

from the end of last year, with the qualification of "best right now", Mandel's list:

1. Billy Donovan, Florida
2. Roy Williams, North Carolina
3. Jim Calhoun, UConn
4. Mike Krzyzewski, Duke
5. Rick Pitino, Louisville
6. Tom Izzo, Michigan State:
7. Ben Howland, UCLA
8. John Calipari, Memphis
9. Thad Matta, Ohio State
10. Billy Gillispie, Kentucky

and Just missed: Michigan's John Beilein, Kansas' Bill Self, USC's Tim Floyd, Gonzaga's Mark Few, Wisconsin's Bo Ryan.

Avoiding the chic suggestions of Donovan too high and Bob McKillop should be included (come on, he's in THIS YEAR's Elite 8!) I think Calipari might be too low. I know, UMass fan and all, but there is the distinction between coach of the 5 guys on the floor and college coach. Calipari might not/isn't a great coach, but he can recruit 5 players better than your 5, and I think that's worth something. Jim Calhoun, on the other hand, is possibly the biggest douche the world has ever known. He has no redeeming qualities, offers nothing positive to anyone, and the entire world would be better off if he died.

Billy Gillispie, (JeeberD hate aside, and mine too since he backed out of an away game vs UMass) before this year quaified for the John Calipari, "not very good coach, but recruits well" platform. This year though showed him to be yet another egotistical guy who tried to stick square players in his coaching styles circles. He completely screwed over a team by trying to make them play a different/(his) style, and was somehow bailed out by the NCAA committee.

Either way, your Top 10 is too oriented towards BCS teams IMO. Are Donovan/Pitino that much better than Travis Ford? Is Thad Matta that much better than Sean Miller? Ben Howland vs. Jamie Dixon? Fran Dunphy can't get a look?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Either way, your Top 10 is too oriented towards BCS teams IMO. Are Donovan/Pitino that much better than Travis Ford? Is Thad Matta that much better than Sean Miller? Ben Howland vs. Jamie Dixon? Fran Dunphy can't get a look?

That isn't my top 10 I wouldn't have Donovan in my top 10, that was an article I'd pasted from SI last year. I did list my top 5 below that and it was entirely BCS team coaches. My top 10 probably would be too. I'm kinda a big conference guy.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

I'd agree that the program has fallen off slightly the last two years, but UConn has a national title ('04) and an elite 8 ('06) in the last 4 years. They won't be down long.

As someone who avidly follows them from multiple perspectives, UConn is fascinating. There's really no way to say UConn "fell off" recently - those people claim since Okafor and Gordon left UConn hasn't been the same, but that Rudy Gay/Villanueva team was arguably #1 going into the tournament.

My UConn friends claim one of two reasons for the 'downfall' - either they're underachievers (undermined slightly by Gay's/Villanueva's performance in the NBA) or they didn't have a point guard - (even once AJ Price got back from stealing the women's teams laptops, he wasn't full strength). One deeper theory/facts I heard were that Calhoun runs basically no offense these days - just allows everyone to do their own thing, because it 'helps recruiting', which is IMO the sign of an extremely lazy coach. Either he can spot/recruit decent players and conform them to his offense or he just tries to get high-calibre players and shouldn't be mentioned anywhere near a top 10 list. We'll see next year when Kenyatta Walker gets there I guess.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Radii

That isn't my top 10 I wouldn't have Donovan in my top 10, that was an article I'd pasted from SI last year. I did list my top 5 below that and it was entirely BCS team coaches. My top 10 probably would be too. I'm kinda a big conference guy.

No offense, but that's a dumb way to do it. I only know the A-10 up and down, but I can point out at least 3 coaches that are arguably as good as your list (Miller from X, Ford from UMass especially compared to Pitino, Fran Dunphy). If I followed other conferences, I'm sure I could point out more good coaches. And FWIW, I really don't think Coach K or Roy Williams could do a better job here at UMass than Ford has done. College, even more than the NBA, is about situations IMO.

I mean, we've all played college basketball sims (FBCB/TDCB) - when you raise a team to Sweet 16 level, no one thinks the 28-6 BCS conf Champion deserves Coach of the Year.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

No offense, but that's a dumb way to do it. I only know the A-10 up and down, but I can point out at least 3 coaches that are arguably as good as your list (Miller from X, Ford from UMass especially compared to Pitino, Fran Dunphy). If I followed other conferences, I'm sure I could point out more good coaches. And FWIW, I really don't think Coach K or Roy Williams could do a better job here at UMass than Ford has done. College, even more than the NBA, is about situations IMO.

Everyone will use different measures to compare coaches, but:

Through the 2006-07 season, Ford's Division I coaching record stands at 98-104, and 165-135 overall (67-31 at Campbellsville, 61-80 at EKU, 37-24 at UMass).

Grats on Ford getting his career record over .500 in division 1 this year. I'm not saying he's a bad coach at all, and he's risen through the ranks really well and has UMass heading in a very good direction. But I think it takes a hell of a hatred for the power conferences(or maybe just being a major homer, and sure there's nothing wrong with that, I'm one myself) to honestly makethe argument that you'd rather have your current coach than Rick Pitino(I know that isn't exactly what you said but "arguably as good" seems to imply it).

The vast majority of mid-major coaches jump up to bigger schools when given the opportunity. The A-10 is in a unique situation where they aren't a big 6 power conference but they're a clear step above the traditional mid majors as well, but I think its completely common sense that the best coaches are going to most of the time try to take the jobs that give them the best chance to succeed, which in nearly all cases are big dollar, high prestige schools. And thus most "best coaches" lists are going to be dominated by big conference coaches, even if you for some reason discount NCAA Tournament success, which I think is a ridiculous thing to do.


And yes, I do think that all the guys in my big conference biased top 5, given 10 years, would have more success at UMass than Ford would over 10 years, or most other hypothetical situations you could come up with, and i don't think too many people will disagree!

[MrBug708]

I don't think you can call Howland a coach who "can't win it all" just quit yet. I don't think there is another coach who has built three different programs with as much success that he has. It's unfortunate that he ran into a once in a lifetime team, in Florida, two years in a row. If he doesn't win the big one in the next couple of years, he might fall into that category. I'd put him in the better coach then recruiter category right now because there is still talent leaving locally to other schools. Well, mostly North Carolina is pulling kids out, but Howland just missed on the biggest target yet, to Georgetown.

[st.cronin]

Is it just me, or does it seem like this tournament has had a lot more blowouts than normal?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Quinn Snyder

[cartman]

Trivia factoid of the day:

Texas is 7-0 under Rick Barnes in NCAA tournament games played in the state of Texas.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Is it just me, or does it seem like this tournament has had a lot more blowouts than normal?

At least in the later rounds versus the past couple of years, yeah, it looks that way.

S16 2008 avg margin of victory = 15.5 ppg (only 1 game <10 pt margin)
S16 2007 avg margin of victory = 4.6 ppg (9 of 10 <10 pt margin)
S16 2006 avg margin of victory = 6.0 ppg (9 of 10 <10 pt margin)
S16 2005 avg margin of victory = 8.0 ppg (3 of 10 <10 pt margin)

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

I don't think there is another coach who has built three different programs with as much success that he has. .

Just off the top of my head - Rick Pitino got 3 different programs to the final 4. There are surely others with at least as much success as Howland.

[Lathum]

Mark Few should be on that list of top coach's.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Just off the top of my head - Rick Pitino got 3 different programs to the final 4. There are surely others with at least as much success as Howland.

Yeah, I immediately thought of that as well when Bug said that. But that doesn't detract from what Howland has done. It just means he is a damn good coach, and there are a few others in his area of expertise as well. Nothing wrong with being among the best coaches.

I have two big issues with Howland, and otherwise I think he is damn near perfect for his job and current position:

1. Other than the occasional Kevin Love or Aaron Gray, he REALLY seems to have a tough time recruiting top big men.
2. The man just isn't a very good X's and O's offensive coach. He needs an assistant who is very strong in this area, and who knows how to attack a zone and make proper use of a big man.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Radii

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...hes/index.html

from the end of last year, with the qualification of "best right now", Mandel's list:

1. Billy Donovan, Florida
2. Roy Williams, North Carolina
3. Jim Calhoun, UConn
4. Mike Krzyzewski, Duke
5. Rick Pitino, Louisville
6. Tom Izzo, Michigan State:
7. Ben Howland, UCLA
8. John Calipari, Memphis
9. Thad Matta, Ohio State
10. Billy Gillispie, Kentucky

and Just missed: Michigan's John Beilein, Kansas' Bill Self, USC's Tim Floyd, Gonzaga's Mark Few, Wisconsin's Bo Ryan.

I know he's a little older, but if you have Calhoun on there you also need to have Lute Olson. He's made the tourney 24 straight years and the two seasons he missed time with health/life issues, they were bubble teams and barely got in. In the 13 seasons leading up to this one, he has won 30 tourney games - with 6 elite 8s, 3 final 4s and 1 champ. In that same time, UNC has won 29 tourney games, Duke has won 28 tourney games and UCLA 26. And it's not like he joined a basketball dynasty school when he came to Tucson. The year before Lute got there, AZ was 4-24 (1-17 in the Pac-10). In Lute's second season (not even a full class), Arizona was 21-10 (12-6) and made the tourney.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Arles

I know he's a little older, but if you have Calhoun on there you also need to have Lute Olson. He's made the tourney 24 straight years and the two seasons he missed time with health/life issues, they were bubble teams and barely got in. In the 13 seasons leading up to this one, he has won 30 tourney games - with 6 elite 8s, 3 final 4s and 1 champ. In that same time, UNC has won 29 tourney games, Duke has won 28 tourney games and UCLA 26.

I agree. Olson should be mentioned. I think his recent problems and UCLA's rise to the top of the league has made people forget about him to an extent, which is wrong. He is one of the all time greats, IMO.

That said, you're comparing his tournament wins to teams that were, for a stretch, coached by A) Matt Doherty, B) whoever replaced Coach K when he hurt his back, and C) Steve Lavin.

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Just finished watching the Davidson-Wisconsin game, which was broadcast delayed over here. Wow. Curry is just amazing. If a guy like him can't make it in the NBA, something is wrong with the NBA.

IMO, there's nothing better than watching a pure shooter in the tourney - esp with a team that knows how to use him. He looks like a shorter Reggie Miller out there.

[Chief Rum]

BTW, speaking of Pac 10 coaches, Indiana has reportedly offered its head job to Wazzu's Tony Bennett, apparently trying to entice him before Cal or LSU offers (not saying they will, just repeating what the article said).

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Arles

IMO, there's nothing better than watching a pure shooter in the tourney - esp with a team that knows how to use him. He looks like a shorter Reggie Miller out there.

thats a great comparason

[Arles]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That said, you're comparing his tournament wins to teams that were, for a stretch, coached by A) Matt Doherty, B) whoever replaced Coach K when he hurt his back, and C) Steve Lavin.

That's a strong argument there Still, I think it shows how tough it is to be a top program year in and year out for the past decade (and keep your job). With kids leaving early, more spread scholarships, high expectations every year - even the UCLAs, UNCs, and Dukes have had an off year or two. Arizona has won 20 games and made the tourney every year since the mid 80s under Lute.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by timmynausea

Just off the top of my head - Rick Pitino got 3 different programs to the final 4. There are surely others with at least as much success as Howland.

I was talking about coaches who hadn't won a title

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Mark Few should be on that list of top coach's.

He has talent to compete and win in the PAC-10 but has been disappointing of late

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by Arles

That's a strong argument there Still, I think it shows how tough it is to be a top program year in and year out for the past decade (and keep your job). With kids leaving early, more spread scholarships, high expectations every year - even the UCLAs, UNCs, and Dukes have had an off year or two. Arizona has won 20 games and made the tourney every year since the mid 80s under Lute.

The problem with Arizona now is that the tools that made Lute a success, are not the tools he chooses to work with anymore. He hires poor assistants and recruits players who don't listen to him

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

He has talent to compete and win in the PAC-10 but has been disappointing of late

I would agree but the fact that he gets consistant NBA talent to play there is pretty increadable.

[MrBug708]

Nike vs Adidas

Louisville (Adidas)
vs. UNC (Nike, well Jordan)

Kansas (Adidas)
vs. Davidson (Nike)

Memphis (Adidas)
vs. Texas (Nike)

UCLA (Adidas)
vs. Xavier (Nike)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

thats a great comparason

He reminds me of Michael Cooper.

By the way, am I the only person on the board for whom the multi-quote button doesn't work?

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

By the way, am I the only person on the board for whom the multi-quote button doesn't work?

Are you sure you're using it right? If you want to quote two posts, hit the multi-quote button on the first one, and then the regular quote button on the second one...

[IMetTrentGreen]

I'm a little late but I want to stand up for Billy Gillespie. Unless he drinks himself to death, which is a legitimate fear for the man, he's going to dominate at Kentucky. He needs every player to do exactly what he wants for 40 straight minutes, which takes time to develop, but once he breaks down his current roster and fills it with his guys, just watch.

Also, Billy Donovan fucking sucks. He "funds the recruiting of" 3 lottery picks (including a ROY candidate) and a 4th draft pick, they play together for 3 years, he should have success. F that loser.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Lathum

thats a great comparason

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Are you sure you're using it right? If you want to quote two posts, hit the multi-quote button on the first one, and then the regular quote button on the second one...

Yeah. I always just get the last quote.

[st.cronin]

Woah.

[MrBug708]

Originally Posted by IMetTrentGreen

I'm a little late but I want to stand up for Billy Gillespie. Unless he drinks himself to death, which is a legitimate fear for the man, he's going to dominate at Kentucky. He needs every player to do exactly what he wants for 40 straight minutes, which takes time to develop, but once he breaks down his current roster and fills it with his guys, just watch.

Also, Billy Donovan fucking sucks. He "funds the recruiting of" 3 lottery picks (including a ROY candidate) and a 4th draft pick, they play together for 3 years, he should have success. F that loser.

Yes and No. I think he probably got more lucky then good with his teams the last two years. But you can not include him when talking about great coaches because it's so hard to win just one title

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Woah.

Test. Now its not working. I think somebody is messing with me.

[Arles]

[Switches cronin's profile back with the aid of Sky Dog] ...

[Lathum]

lets go Xavier!!