Alright Boyz, Here We Go!!! NCAA Football 2009 impressions thread - Page 24

Eaglesfan27 · 07-21-2008, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KWhit

Can we just ignore him for a while?

Speaking of the game, though, and not from a biased POV like MBBF, I am really, really bummed about the online dynasty issues. That was literally the only reason I bought the game.

If they don't clear it up fast, I will be pissed.

Agreed on all points.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 07-21-2008, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Okay, so one key, major part of the game so far is not "terrible" or "brutal" (and I'd wager that a large majority of Madden games played are pvp either at home in a party setup or online, hence the focus on it). We've had some folks chime in that they are having fun with Heisman as well.

So are we down to "dynasty mode" is broken?

Well, there still are some major AI issues that will pop up even during PVP games. Just a couple of examples.

-Return game is broken.
-Defensive AI makes major pursuit errors for no reason.

The PVP portion of the game does remove some of the AI errors. For example:

-Ghost jukes
-Passing to players way out of bounds.
-Pitching to players who are out of bounds.

And as you mention, the dynasty modes both have significant issues.

Edit: I'm also not even close to asking for a perfect game. That's never going to happen. But that doesn't preclude the developers from creating a game that fixes the bugs from previous years and improves the AI levels without a heavy reliance on sliders that makes the consumers fix the problems. I really don't think that's asking much at all. Most developers are able to do that.

Galaxy · 07-21-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

That's the funny part. All I've done is reiterate impressions from various sources off of the internet. I've not given one personal impression. There's plenty of places to find a wealth of impressions on the game. Thus far, they have been decidedly critical of the game.

Your the new jbmagic.

Sun Tzu · 07-21-2008, 02:01 PM

Hopefuly this Online Dynasty thing is a server issue, which would mean the process necessary to fix it could be a hell of a lot quicker than a patch which has to be certified several times.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 07-21-2008, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Your the new jbmagic.

Like I said, I'll get the game relatively soon and will have hands-on impressions. I just refuse to pay for it.

MizzouRah · 07-21-2008, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I'll get the game in a week or two for free and be able to find out in person just how bad it is. I'll likely trade it in pretty quickly.

What do you mean you'll get the game for free and then trade it in?

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

FYI....the sliders are not console specific. The game works the exact same way on either console.

The sliders actually don't work at the moment. They have merged the CPU and Human sliders into one. Basically adjusting the CPU sliders won't change anything.

Just an FYI for those trying to get some settings down.

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Well, there still are some major AI issues that will pop up even during PVP games. Just a couple of examples.

-Return game is broken.
-Defensive AI makes major pursuit errors for no reason.

I actually don't consider those broken. I really think these were intended. They pitched wide-open gameplay as a selling point. What they did was lower the ratings of players on the kick/punt return. For instance I had a 94 speed corner in on kickoffs and their returner 91 speed was gaining 2 yards for every 10 yards they ran.

It's broken to simulation style gamers but not EA's intended audience.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 07-21-2008, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

What do you mean you'll get the game for free and then trade it in?

I get a copy from someone I know after they finish with it. Same with Madden.

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 02:31 PM

I've been critical of EA games before and I do think some of the stuff is overblown. No one who buys these games expects the AI to be real good or anything. EA football games play like they normally do year after year. I knew the D-Line was broken and the coverage left some to be desired. But I know playing human opponents can alleviate some of that stuff.

And despite the fact that I like this game against other human opponents, it is unacceptable for EA to put out a game where the online dynasty is completely broken. It was a major selling point and one of the only reasons I bought the game. I just think it's a slap in the face of their fans that this doesn't work.

I hope that it's a minor problem and something they can get fixed in the next week or so.

Raiders Army · 07-21-2008, 02:38 PM

I can't say I'm not surprised, given the debacle that was Madden last year. EA denied there were problems and finally the franchise patch came out during the freakin playoffs. It took them over 1/3 of the year to patch it.

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 04:16 PM

Sun Tzu · 07-21-2008, 04:30 PM

Was that against FCS?

CraigSca · 07-21-2008, 05:11 PM

Has anyone checked the credits to see if Daivd is on the list?

Sun Tzu · 07-21-2008, 05:32 PM

I'm pretty sure that clip is against one of the FCS teams, which means their speed is somewhere in the 50-60 range. Everybody on the FCS teams takes a VERY conservative pursuit angle...you should be spanking them by 70 points.

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I'm pretty sure that clip is against one of the FCS teams, which means their speed is somewhere in the 50-60 range. Everybody on the FCS teams takes a VERY conservative pursuit angle...you should be spanking them by 70 points.

Conservative angle at the 1 yard line? And why do they all do the same exact thing like a swarm of fish? I don't know man, shouldn't matter who the team is, they shouldn't be running toward the locker room in unision.

Bigsmooth · 07-21-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I'm pretty sure that clip is against one of the FCS teams, which means their speed is somewhere in the 50-60 range. Everybody on the FCS teams takes a VERY conservative pursuit angle...you should be spanking them by 70 points.

True. However, the whole pack of defenders running away from the ball carrier is rediculous. Just glaringly flawed AI.

That being said, the game is a blast online with legit players. I'll be on in just under an hour....hope to play somebody.

Sun Tzu · 07-21-2008, 05:58 PM

I agree that clip was strange...but I've played at least 20 games since I bought the game and I have yet to see anything like this. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist (obviously) but it's certainly a freak occurance.

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

I agree that clip was strange...but I've played at least 20 games since I bought the game and I have yet to see anything like this. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist (obviously) but it's certainly a freak occurance.

Are you watching a lot of the replays? I've looked closely at a lot of them and the pursuit is just atrocious on some. Here are a few more:

Watch the pursuit angles these guys take. One guy could have easily gotten him but decides to run parrallel with him instead.

http://www.easportsworld.com/en_US/video/36817

Here is another, watch the guy make a bee line for the concession stand.

http://www.easportsworld.com/en_US/video/39350

Something is messed with pursuit. I don't know if this was done on purpose for higher scoring or if it's just something they tried to implement that backfired.

Sun Tzu · 07-21-2008, 06:24 PM

The first replay is FCS again...they take really bad angles probably because of a rediculously low AWR/SPD, the second replay I think I'm missing it. I haven't seen any angle problems in any of the games I've played...the only ones that were fishy were the ones against FCS and quite frankly against them...who cares?

BrianD · 07-21-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

The first replay is FCS again...they take really bad angles probably because of a rediculously low AWR/SPD, the second replay I think I'm missing it. I haven't seen any angle problems in any of the games I've played...the only ones that were fishy were the ones against FCS and quite frankly against them...who cares?

In the first replay, the defender could have easily gotten to the sideline before the ball carrier did. I'd guess that the defender isn't aware of the sideline and didn't know the ball carrier couldn't go wider.

The second replay was pretty funny. One defender ran off the field, onto the track surrounding the field about about 5 lanes deep no the track. Again, no real idea where the sidelines are.

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

The first replay is FCS again...they take really bad angles probably because of a rediculously low AWR/SPD, the second replay I think I'm missing it. I haven't seen any angle problems in any of the games I've played...the only ones that were fishy were the ones against FCS and quite frankly against them...who cares?

The last video, watch the Huskie player make a bee line for the concession stand while he's chasing the player down. It seems from all 3 videos that the computer player has no concept of the sideline or end zone. They don't realize that the runner will run out of room eventually along the sideline. No matter if it's FCS or not, he should have been able to hit him. And the other player who ran for the hills should have been directly chasing the player.

You probably don't notice it since you play other humans who take control of their players. But the pursuit AI is atrocious. Fire up a game against the CPU and just watch the replays on some of your big plays. Guys make some really odd decisions.

This isn't something I'm imagining, it's been a major issue on every board. Even the developers/designers of NCAA have come out and acknowledged there are some issues with the player pursuit.

Sun Tzu · 07-21-2008, 06:37 PM

Out of the 20+ games I've played so far, only 4 have been against humans. The only players I see taking odd angles are OL on interception returns, or kickoff/punt returns. No offense, but doing this is trying to find something you don't like about the game. Sometimes I see players step out when it's not necessary, and sometimes I see weird things happen. I see stranger things happen in college football in every game than this stuff...again outside of the FCS teams.

Bigsmooth · 07-21-2008, 06:39 PM

Anybody wanna play right now?

JLalley2

bhlloy · 07-21-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Out of the 20+ games I've played so far, only 4 have been against humans. The only players I see taking odd angles are OL on interception returns, or kickoff/punt returns. No offense, but doing this is trying to find something you don't like about the game. Sometimes I see players step out when it's not necessary, and sometimes I see weird things happen. I see stranger things happen in college football in every game than this stuff...again outside of the FCS teams.

FWIW, obviously I haven't played the game yet (grr) but I can find at least 2 videos in this thread with obviously bad pursuit angles that would drive me insane. And that last video on the one yard line is inexcusable, whether it's an FCS team or the Stevie Wonder all-stars. If I get that in a close game I'm going to throw my controller through the freaking screen.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 07-21-2008, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

Out of the 20+ games I've played so far, only 4 have been against humans. The only players I see taking odd angles are OL on interception returns, or kickoff/punt returns. No offense, but doing this is trying to find something you don't like about the game. Sometimes I see players step out when it's not necessary, and sometimes I see weird things happen. I see stranger things happen in college football in every game than this stuff...again outside of the FCS teams.

Dear Sun Tzu,

You're making some very valid points. You are spot on that players in real games do things much worse than what these videos portray. These post are obviously finding something that simply isn't there. We appreciate your rational observations.

Sincerely,
Peter Moore

Mizzou B-ball fan · 07-21-2008, 07:50 PM

Does anyone else think that the video option may be biting EA in the backside a bit this year? Certainly, it's a great idea, but it seems like their video service is a wikipedia of all the AI flaws in the game. In past years, it took a good amount of work to post plays like this. Now people just push a few buttons and it's readily accessable to the entire world.

BrianD · 07-21-2008, 07:50 PM

For the record, I'd like to point out that I was not mocking the game with my recent comments, just discussing a possible reason for the sideline pursuit. I remember NFL2k5 had the same sideline stuff where you could get a defensive escort by racing up the sidelines. It isn't that hard to create a house rule (if necessary) to stay a yard or two from the sidelines.

RainMaker · 07-21-2008, 07:55 PM

I wasn't even trying to bash the game there. Just seeing if there was a way to fix it. I was wondering if it was strictly an issue with awareness and whether maxing it out would fix it. I think the issue has more to do with the sidelines and end zones and the AI not accounting for it like it should. That would be something that a patch needs to fix instead of sliders.

But I regress, it must be my imagination running wild.

Eaglesfan27 · 07-21-2008, 08:34 PM

From working with sliders, I think if you mess with defensive awareness it is a problem because it brings back the interception issue.

cartman · 07-21-2008, 09:21 PM

This game is not Maximum Football, no matter how much Mizzou B-ball Fan tries to make it sound.

mauchow · 07-21-2008, 09:23 PM

Well, I just got smoked. I went up 10-0 early on and then conceded the game when it was 31-10.

kingnebwsu · 07-21-2008, 09:23 PM

So yeah. Pretty pissed about the online dynasty. Hopefully it's fixed in time for me to still be interested in playing it. It's like, if it's fixed in November when all the real games are coming out (that's right...I went there

) then how many people will still want to do it? I'm not withdrawing my name from the ring yet, but just typing some thoughts here.

Seriously...what's the over/under of this issue getting fixed? Argh.

Galaxy · 07-21-2008, 11:44 PM

Fell to Kodos 24-21 tonight. Had a late charge with my first kickoff return (93 yards) in the 4th quarter. How do you post videos here from EA Sports World?

Groundhog · 07-21-2008, 11:56 PM

w00t, my copy has shipped, will be here in 1-3 days!

Icy · 07-22-2008, 03:33 AM

Despite the flaws, i'm having a blast with Campus Legend. It's basicaly the same as past year, but with the 60fps in the PS3 and the more fluid movements i'm loving it. I'm playing two CL, one as RB in Boise State and another as SS in Mizzou and enjoying every second of it.

Now that i have found a good set of sliders for me ( njpapi's 3.5 ) and a real roster set without any kind of bug for the PS3, i want to start a dynasty with USF as I aways do, but i keep saying, just one more game in CL... and have been that way for 3 days already.

BigDPW · 07-22-2008, 07:52 AM

Also I have finally decided to use my ignore list...

1. MBBF
2. to be determined...

Raiders Army · 07-22-2008, 08:25 AM

FWIW, I posted that pic a looooooong time ago and there are members on here that have mentally handicapped relatives. Back then some viewed it as offensive. I think it was duckman, IIRC.

MizzouRah · 07-22-2008, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

I get a copy from someone I know after they finish with it. Same with Madden.

and then you trade it in for money towards another game?

Mizzou B-ball fan · 07-22-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

and then you trade it in for money towards another game?

Yes.

CraigSca · 07-22-2008, 11:05 AM

What are friends for, right?

Mizzou B-ball fan · 07-22-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CraigSca

What are friends for, right?

Co-workers actually. They don't pay for the game either.

Karlifornia · 07-22-2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Co-workers actually. They don't pay for the game either.

Twenty bucks says this dude goes the way of abortion protesters and winds up bombing EA headquarters.

Sun Tzu · 07-22-2008, 11:23 AM

If you throw in that waffle maker you've got yourself a bet.

gstelmack · 07-22-2008, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan

Co-workers actually. They don't pay for the game either.

So you take a free game copy and rip off some store by trading it in?

Galaxy · 07-22-2008, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

FWIW, I posted that pic a looooooong time ago and there are members on here that have mentally handicapped relatives. Back then some viewed it as offensive. I think it was duckman, IIRC.

Did I miss something?

Noop · 07-22-2008, 11:59 AM

The word I am thinking of suits him perfectly.

miami_fan · 07-22-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Twenty bucks says this dude goes the way of abortion protesters and winds up bombing EA headquarters.

Are you saying that he has a vendetta against EA?

korme · 07-22-2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Icy

Despite the flaws, i'm having a blast with Campus Legend. It's basicaly the same as past year, but with the 60fps in the PS3 and the more fluid movements i'm loving it. I'm playing two CL, one as RB in Boise State and another as SS in Mizzou and enjoying every second of it.

Now that i have found a good set of sliders for me ( njpapi's 3.5 ) and a real roster set without any kind of bug for the PS3, i want to start a dynasty with USF as I aways do, but i keep saying, just one more game in CL... and have been that way for 3 days already.

where'd you get the bugless roster set for ps3?

duckman · 07-22-2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

FWIW, I posted that pic a looooooong time ago and there are members on here that have mentally handicapped relatives. Back then some viewed it as offensive. I think it was duckman, IIRC.

It was Subby. I defended you, I think.

07-21-2008, 02:01 PM	#1154
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	Hopefuly this Online Dynasty thing is a server issue, which would mean the process necessary to fix it could be a hell of a lot quicker than a patch which has to be certified several times. __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-21-2008, 04:16 PM	#1162
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	Last edited by RainMaker : 07-21-2008 at 04:16 PM.

07-21-2008, 04:30 PM	#1163
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	Was that against FCS? __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-21-2008, 05:11 PM	#1164
CraigSca Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Not Delaware - hurray!	Has anyone checked the credits to see if Daivd is on the list? __________________ She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know?

07-21-2008, 05:32 PM	#1165
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	I'm pretty sure that clip is against one of the FCS teams, which means their speed is somewhere in the 50-60 range. Everybody on the FCS teams takes a VERY conservative pursuit angle...you should be spanking them by 70 points. __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-21-2008, 02:31 PM	#1160
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	I've been critical of EA games before and I do think some of the stuff is overblown. No one who buys these games expects the AI to be real good or anything. EA football games play like they normally do year after year. I knew the D-Line was broken and the coverage left some to be desired. But I know playing human opponents can alleviate some of that stuff. And despite the fact that I like this game against other human opponents, it is unacceptable for EA to put out a game where the online dynasty is completely broken. It was a major selling point and one of the only reasons I bought the game. I just think it's a slap in the face of their fans that this doesn't work. I hope that it's a minor problem and something they can get fixed in the next week or so.

07-21-2008, 02:38 PM	#1161
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	I can't say I'm not surprised, given the debacle that was Madden last year. EA denied there were problems and finally the franchise patch came out during the freakin playoffs. It took them over 1/3 of the year to patch it.

07-21-2008, 05:58 PM	#1168
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	I agree that clip was strange...but I've played at least 20 games since I bought the game and I have yet to see anything like this. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist (obviously) but it's certainly a freak occurance. __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-21-2008, 06:24 PM	#1170
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	The first replay is FCS again...they take really bad angles probably because of a rediculously low AWR/SPD, the second replay I think I'm missing it. I haven't seen any angle problems in any of the games I've played...the only ones that were fishy were the ones against FCS and quite frankly against them...who cares? __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-21-2008, 06:37 PM	#1173
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	Out of the 20+ games I've played so far, only 4 have been against humans. The only players I see taking odd angles are OL on interception returns, or kickoff/punt returns. No offense, but doing this is trying to find something you don't like about the game. Sometimes I see players step out when it's not necessary, and sometimes I see weird things happen. I see stranger things happen in college football in every game than this stuff...again outside of the FCS teams. __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-21-2008, 06:39 PM	#1174
Bigsmooth College Prospect Join Date: Dec 2006	Anybody wanna play right now? JLalley2 Last edited by Bigsmooth : 07-21-2008 at 06:39 PM.

07-21-2008, 07:50 PM	#1177
Mizzou B-ball fan General Manager Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Kansas City, MO	Does anyone else think that the video option may be biting EA in the backside a bit this year? Certainly, it's a great idea, but it seems like their video service is a wikipedia of all the AI flaws in the game. In past years, it took a good amount of work to post plays like this. Now people just push a few buttons and it's readily accessable to the entire world.

07-21-2008, 07:50 PM	#1178
BrianD Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Appleton, WI	For the record, I'd like to point out that I was not mocking the game with my recent comments, just discussing a possible reason for the sideline pursuit. I remember NFL2k5 had the same sideline stuff where you could get a defensive escort by racing up the sidelines. It isn't that hard to create a house rule (if necessary) to stay a yard or two from the sidelines.

07-21-2008, 07:55 PM	#1179
RainMaker General Manager Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chicago, IL	I wasn't even trying to bash the game there. Just seeing if there was a way to fix it. I was wondering if it was strictly an issue with awareness and whether maxing it out would fix it. I think the issue has more to do with the sidelines and end zones and the AI not accounting for it like it should. That would be something that a patch needs to fix instead of sliders. But I regress, it must be my imagination running wild.

07-21-2008, 08:34 PM	#1180
Eaglesfan27 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: New Jersey	From working with sliders, I think if you mess with defensive awareness it is a problem because it brings back the interception issue. __________________ Retired GM of the eNFL 2007 Super Bowl Champion Philadelphia Eagles (19-0 record.) GM of the WOOF 2006 Doggie Bowl Champion Atlantic City Gamblers. GM of the IHOF 2019 and 2022 IHOF Bowl Champion Asheville Axemen.

07-21-2008, 09:21 PM	#1181
cartman Death Herald Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas	This game is not Maximum Football, no matter how much Mizzou B-ball Fan tries to make it sound. __________________ Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint

07-21-2008, 09:23 PM	#1182
mauchow Grizzled Veteran Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Murfreesboro, TN	Well, I just got smoked. I went up 10-0 early on and then conceded the game when it was 31-10.

07-21-2008, 09:23 PM	#1183
kingnebwsu College Benchwarmer Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Ohio	So yeah. Pretty pissed about the online dynasty. Hopefully it's fixed in time for me to still be interested in playing it. It's like, if it's fixed in November when all the real games are coming out (that's right...I went there ) then how many people will still want to do it? I'm not withdrawing my name from the ring yet, but just typing some thoughts here. Seriously...what's the over/under of this issue getting fixed? Argh.

07-21-2008, 11:44 PM	#1184
Galaxy Coordinator Join Date: Apr 2005	Fell to Kodos 24-21 tonight. Had a late charge with my first kickoff return (93 yards) in the 4th quarter. How do you post videos here from EA Sports World? Last edited by Galaxy : 07-21-2008 at 11:46 PM.

07-21-2008, 11:56 PM	#1185
Groundhog Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sydney, Australia	w00t, my copy has shipped, will be here in 1-3 days! __________________ Politics, n. Strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles. --Ambrose Bierce

07-22-2008, 03:33 AM	#1186
Icy Pro Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Toledo - Spain	Despite the flaws, i'm having a blast with Campus Legend. It's basicaly the same as past year, but with the 60fps in the PS3 and the more fluid movements i'm loving it. I'm playing two CL, one as RB in Boise State and another as SS in Mizzou and enjoying every second of it. Now that i have found a good set of sliders for me ( njpapi's 3.5 ) and a real roster set without any kind of bug for the PS3, i want to start a dynasty with USF as I aways do, but i keep saying, just one more game in CL... and have been that way for 3 days already. __________________ Last edited by Icy : 07-22-2008 at 03:49 AM.

07-22-2008, 07:52 AM	#1187
BigDPW College Prospect Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Raleigh, NC	Also I have finally decided to use my ignore list... 1. MBBF 2. to be determined... Last edited by BigDPW : 07-22-2008 at 09:13 AM. Reason: Sorry for the potentially offensive content... Even prior to RA's post I had considered pulling this back down...

07-22-2008, 08:25 AM	#1188
Raiders Army Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Black Hole	FWIW, I posted that pic a looooooong time ago and there are members on here that have mentally handicapped relatives. Back then some viewed it as offensive. I think it was duckman, IIRC.

07-22-2008, 11:05 AM	#1191
CraigSca Pro Starter Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Not Delaware - hurray!	What are friends for, right? __________________ She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah! She loves you, yeah! how do you know? how do you know?

07-22-2008, 11:23 AM	#1194
Sun Tzu Pro Starter Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: In the thick of it.	If you throw in that waffle maker you've got yourself a bet. __________________ I'm still here. Don't touch my fucking bacon.

07-22-2008, 11:59 AM	#1197
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	The word I am thinking of suits him perfectly. __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

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