The Obama Presidency - 2008 & 2012

[Flasch186]

I believe that that will be an effective ad for most people who put any weight in ads to begin with.

[JPhillips]

Not sure if this fits here, but what the hell.

Be sure and watch all the way until the end.

[Dutch]

My first season of campaign commercials in 4 years and I must admit I think they all seem like total d-bags. I don't want to vote for anybody...but I suppose I have to.

[JPhillips]

This is what happens when a football player gets too many shots to the head. From Jon Runyan:

[larrymcg421]

Maybe we should give the citizenship test as a qualification to run for Congress. How many candidates would have to step down?

[Greyroofoo]

I think the same should be given to voters personally. If you don't know the basics of government you don't get to vote.

[Glengoyne]

I figured this has become the defacto political thread, and I came here to see if Juan Williams was getting any love.

His firing was THE hot topic for a while yesterday according to Google Trends, but I guess there isn't much chance the President will step in with a position. It does tickle a couple of his "I must comment on this" hot buttons though.

My take. Yes what he said was essentially the he racially profiled people he flies with. I'm not going to go so far as to call that bigoted, although that is the charge. I do hope that NPR extends this "policy" to the rest of their commentators and correspondents who may tend to stray past their role of journalist and into editorial during their commentary. I'm a fan of NPR, but this doesn't set well with me.

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Ward Churchill

Jesse Ewiak, you are really a treat.

"Look, Bill, I'm not a bigot. You know the kind of books I've written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous."

vs.

"[financial workers in the WTC on 9/11] are the moral and philosophical equivalent of Adolf Eichmann."

edit: It's still against the rules for banned people to come back under new names, right?

[JPhillips]

I love it when conservatives argue for tenure.

[sabotai]

I thought Rick Sanchez was fired because he was a complete jackhole and a moron.

EDIT: Ah, google tells me he went off on Jon Stewart and Jews. I remember Stewart destroying him on TDS. Not surprised Sanchez went off the deep end when his stupidity was put on full display.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Ronnie Dobbs2

edit: It's still against the rules for banned people to come back under new names, right?

Irony much?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Oh, and another example of how the Tea Party is just a group of Americans who only want fiscal responsibility and it's not about Obama's race at all.

Voter Registration Group Targeted By TX Tea Party Group Received Threats (VIDEO) | TPMMuckraker

I'm genuinely curious, do you put "the Tea Party" in caps and that use definite article intentionally? Like, to try to trick everyone or something, that we're talking about something like "the Democratic Party" or "the Republican Party"

Racists in houston. Stop the presses. I am so tired of nutjobs trying to spin these stories into something politically relevant.

And what's with the smarmy posts - "Oh and another example of..." Is there this huge group of people here that you're responding to that are apparently claiming that any given local Houston "tea party group" even understands the concept of fiscal responsibility, let alone are motivated by it?

It's just trollish garbage and it's ALL you ever post - you offer nothing else. No original thoughts, no nothing. Just these dopey, arrogant attempts to connect anyone who thinks differently than you to the most unsavory element possible. That's just being a dick.

[molson]

It's like you're trying to say - "hey, if you have the slightest inkling towards favoring government responsibility, or a concern about rampant government corruption - you should know, that RACISTS are associated with those ideas. RACISTS!"

The local tea party movements are like a gold mine for jackoff liberals who don't have the aptitude to defend and discuss their views, but are really good at slandering any diverse opinion through association. (which thankfully, is a minority of liberals.).

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Yes, I think people are so dumb in this thread I can _fool_ them into believing the Tea Party is an organized force.

But, yes, there's been literally dozens upon dozens of examples of racially motivated posts/ads/etc. from Tea Party/uberconservative types, but yet when somebody ever mentions that just maybe, the conservative resentment against Obama might just have a little something to do with race, all the righties and libertarians on this site act like somebody shot their mother and OMG, how dare I disparage the intentions of all the good people in the Tea Party, who ya' know, didn't realize we've had massive deficits for most of the past thirty years.

As for correcting people, it's not my fault reality has a liberal bias.

Arrogant B.S. again, and yes, I do think that you think you're smarter than everyone else.

Nobody here has a problem with disparaging racists. But that's not what you're doing at all. You're using racists to try to score political points for your team. You even kind of admit it in this post, claiming that "the conservative resentment against Obama might just have a little something to do with race".

In your fucked up world, there's "your people", and racists/homophobics. Most of us are not in either group.

If I went up 100 miles north of Boise this weekend, into real rural America, I'm sure, among the group of people that distrusts the federal government, wants lower taxes, more state sovereignty, and likes their firearm rights, I could find a spirited subset of people who are incredibly vile - racist, homophobic, violent wife-beaters. I could get them fired up about the federal government and start a "local tea party movement" that would be, like many of them are, very vile and disgusting. But what would this group tell us about national politics, people who disagree with the current administration on some things, or even the other, good people in that rural area? I would say absolutely nothing. You're trying to tell us it means everything. What I'm not sure of yet, is whether this is either a conscious strategy, or if you're just the small-minded liberal version of those bigoted Idaho people?

[molson]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

I agree, conservatives are much better at smearing anybody to the left of Dwight Eisenhower.

Have you ever noticed you're only capable of posting smarmy schtick, and can't even put together a sincere statement about your views? This is what makes you come off like an arrogant prick. (And I think it's why it's so easy to identify you as your previous FOFC identity, though I don't remember it well enough to be able to make that connection personally) There's plenty of smart liberals here who say lots of smart, sincere things that expresses their views. People disagree, I usually disagree at least on the government role stuff, but it's usually or almost never this weird smarmy arrogant B.S. that doesn't appear to be responsive to anything anyone has actually said. You don't seen capable of more than that. Everything is just schtick, probably from something else you read somewhere on the internet.

It doesn't appear you have a sincere bone in your body. You don't give a shit about people, politics is a team sport/hobby where you can attack people who you feel superior to.

[EagleFan]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

Yes, I think people are so dumb in this thread I can _fool_ them into believing the Tea Party is an organized force.

But, yes, there's been literally dozens upon dozens of examples of racially motivated posts/ads/etc. from Tea Party/uberconservative types, but yet when somebody ever mentions that just maybe, the conservative resentment against Obama might just have a little something to do with race, all the righties and libertarians on this site act like somebody shot their mother and OMG, how dare I disparage the intentions of all the good people in the Tea Party, who ya' know, didn't realize we've had massive deficits for most of the past thirty years.

As for correcting people, it's not my fault reality has a liberal bias.

Not sure if he's just trolling or actually believes the ignorant crap that he spews... Hopefully it's the former as the latter is just plain sad...

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by SteveBollea

...

But, I hope you have the same problems with the viewpoint-based firings of Octavia Nasr, Helen Thomas, Rick Sanchez, Eason Jordan, Peter Arnett, Phil Donahue, Ashleigh Banfield, Bill Maher, Ward Churchill, Chas Freeman, and Van Jones.

...

Those are pretty funny. I ran them down, although I did have to google a couple to refresh my memory. I frankly wasn't even aware of the Octavia Nasr situation. Her's is a tough situation, as she expressly supported this guy who was an enemy of America(my words). She later clarified her position, and I think probably should have weathered the storm, but CNN felt otherwise.

Most of these folks stated fairly direct and inflammatory opinions in rather inflammatory manners. Juan Williams couched his comments as much as he could, making it clear that the moderate muslim world has to be distinguished from the extremists. I don't think his statement measures up on the "offensometer" like many of your examples below.

Oh, and you forgot Dan Rather. I'll thrown John Bolton into the arena. My sense of balance.

---

Helen Thomas: "Jews should get the hell out of Palestine, and go back to Germany"~paraphrase -- Fairly straightforward statement that she was anti-Israel.

Rick Sanchez:"The Jews run CNN and the rest of the media"~paraphrase Again, you don't have to be a rocket scientist or wear a tin foil to pick up on his Gibsonesque inference.

Eason Jordan: Might have said(I had to look this one up):"The US Military intentionally targeted journalists and killed them...or maybe didn't care that there were journalists in the line of fire...or maybe that isn't what I meant". I think he should have been fired simply for being a speaker/panelist at a conference of his peers, and purporting nonsense...or maybe purporting nonsense. In any case he appeared on several occasions to not know what the hell he was talking about, all while making(maybe) a provocative and outlandish claim.


Arnett? really, you're going to throw Arnett out there? I'm not even going to look his up. From baby milk factory to being pretty much a discredited whacko. He demonstrated a lack of judgment unprecedented by correspondents during a time of war.

Ashleigh Banfield: Pretty much railroaded for stating her quite reasonable opinion in a professional and forthright manner. In an appropriate forum. She was screwed.

Maher: "The terrorists are more heroic than pilots in our military" Yeah like that isn't sensationalism targeted at firing up the public. You can't blame a company beholden to that public for taking action. Besides, it looks like he's recovered just fine any way.

Phil Donahue: Not sure of the controversy here. Years later, it was discovered because the powers that be thought he was too liberal and anti-war. Maybe this is something I'd be upset about. I have to admit it was under my radar. Phil isn't someone who I'd typically classify as level headed.

Ward Churchill: Seriously!?! Whacko Indian nazi guy. I'm not bothered at all when universities fire people for being morons. I'm fairly certain I posted about him here somewhere. I was pretty active back then, and found him offensive. He absolutely has the right to his stupid opinion, and the school is absolutely within its rights to distance itself from him and his opinion.

Chas Freeman: A bunch of senators critical of an appointee due to positions that appointee has taken in the past. Yeah this never happens. I was less bothered by this than the blocked appointment years ago of William Weld. Actually I had very little problem with this one, mainly because I'm uncomfortable with someone with his bias(granted my assessment of his purported bias) in the position for which he was nominated.

Van Jones: Come on?! Really. I thought Arnett was a stretch for you. You think anyone who believes that 9/11 was perpetrated by this government(Frankly he may have only believed that the Government let it happen) has any credibility? He has NO professional standing to warrant any sort of presidential appointment.

[Glengoyne]

After taking the time to respond, I've read the last page or so. So since when is it cool to say that BSBollea is JesseEwiak? That is pretty rough, unless it happens to be the truth. In any case that's like a personal attack..even if it is true.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

After taking the time to respond, I've read the last page or so. So since when is it cool to say that BSBollea is JesseEwiak? That is pretty rough, unless it happens to be the truth. In any case that's like a personal attack..even if it is true.

Not to mention the fact that no one would give a shit whether he was Jesse or not if it wasn't for his political views, which is why I said above that it was ironic considering the discussion we're having right now.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Not to mention the fact that no one would give a shit whether he was Jesse or not if it wasn't for his political views, which is why I said above that it was ironic considering the discussion we're having right now.

I never thought this was even controversial. Everyone that used to read Jessie Ewiak knows that who this is. I don't think he was slamming him, he was just pointing out who he is. Did you really not know that is who SteveBollea is?

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

I never thought this was even controversial. Everyone that used to read Jessie Ewiak knows that who this is. I don't think he was slamming him, he was just pointing out who he is. Did you really not know that is who SteveBollea is?

He suggested a banning for a poster that said something he disagreed with politically. That's what I find ironic. The actual identity of SteveBollea is irrelevant.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

He suggested a banning for a poster that said something he disagreed with politically. That's what I find ironic. The actual identity of SteveBollea is irrelevant.

OK, I am with you there. I think GlenGoyle was more about wondering whether it is true so I probably should have quoted him and not you. There is no doubt that he is Jessie Ewiak. I really don't care that much, never wanted him banned or anything, I just knew the whole time who he came back as.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Glengoyne

Juan Williams couched his comments as much as he could, making it clear that the moderate muslim world has to be distinguished from the extremists.

But he also said that it's reasonable to be fearful of all Muslims in Muslim garb. That's the very essence of bigotry, whether he wants to admit it or not. Imagine me saying I worry my child isn't safe around anyone in Catholic garb, or I worry about my money when I see people in Jewish garb. Even if I sincerely believe it, that's still bigotry.

That being said, I think it's a poor reason to fire Williams. I don't like the witch hunts around reporters that offend a powerful constituency. NPR has a right to can him, but I wouldn't have for this offense.

IMO he should have been fired long ago for dancing around the rules at NPR. They are very tight on what their reporters can do(they recently banned reporters from attending the Stewart/Colbert rally off duty). Williams has also become a stale source of conventional wisdom and doesn't offer NPR anything they can't get elsewhere for far less money and headaches.

[molson]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But he also said that it's reasonable to be fearful of all Muslims in Muslim garb. That's the very essence of bigotry, whether he wants to admit it or not. Imagine me saying I worry my child isn't safe around anyone in Catholic garb, or I worry about my money when I see people in Jewish garb. Even if I sincerely believe it, that's still bigotry.

That being said, I think it's a poor reason to fire Williams. I don't like the witch hunts around reporters that offend a powerful constituency. NPR has a right to can him, but I wouldn't have for this offense.

It was bigotry, but it was a kind of bigotry that I think many if not most Americans have, so it was kind of honest, and an interesting admission. It was like he was admitting this personal flaw, which could have taken the conversation somewhere interesting, but I don't think O'Reilly was interested in that. I don't think he was expressing any kind of political "viewpoint" at all. He just got a little too comfortable.

[larrymcg421]

I have to admit when I first heard about this flap, I expected the comments to be much worse than what I ended up reading. And at least he was honest instead of couching his opinion in the "some people say" gambit that Fox uses.

However, a good rule of thumb for anyone in the public spotlight is that if you start a sentence with "I'm not a racist, but..." then you should just stop right there. Nothing good is about to happen.

[larrymcg421]

I'm really happy the Florida AG did not appeal the court ruling that overturned the gay adoption ban, much like Schwarzeneggar and Jerry Brown did in the Prop 8 case. Disappointed that Obama is appealing the DADT ruling. I understand he has to hedge his bets on such a controversial issue, but this seems to give him the opening he needs to let it be overturned. (Nor do I buy the argument that he is required by law to appeal as the 14th Amendment would certainly have supremacy over such a law.)

[Greyroofoo]

What I find hilarious is that it was Log Cabin Republicans that started this whole anti-DADT court case.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

What I find hilarious is that it was Log Cabin Republicans that started this whole anti-DADT court case.

Yes, so we have Republicans fighting for gay rights and a Dem President fighting against. Meanwhile, the opposing lawyers in Bush vs. Gore have teamed up to take down Prop 8 and their cause was aided by a Republican governor who refused to appeal their victory.

[Greyroofoo]

Lol, didn't know about that second part.

[AENeuman]

"Racism is a lazy man's substitute for using good judgment ... Common sense becomes racism when skin color becomes a formula for figuring out who is a danger to me."
Juan Williams, 1986

[RainMaker]

I don't really think what he said was all that wrong. He said how he feels when he sees someone in Muslim garb on an airplane. I'm sorry, but I'm guessing a large number of us would feel odd too in that situation.
Just as we would in many other situations involving races, ethnicities, and gender.

The bigger issue NPR likely had was that he appeared on a show that is primarily comprised of hate speech. We see a lot of political entities distance themselves from hate speech when someone has some form of association with it. I'm guessing this was an excuse to fire him and distance themselves from that kind of stuff.

[Glengoyne]

Originally Posted by panerd

I never thought this was even controversial. Everyone that used to read Jessie Ewiak knows that who this is. I don't think he was slamming him, he was just pointing out who he is. Did you really not know that is who SteveBollea is?

I equated them as somewhat whacko liberals, but there are more than two of them in the world. So I for one never made that connection. I figured that this was made public through IP tracking or other personal connections, as I seem to recall that Jessie had personal connections with other folks here.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by molson

It was bigotry, but it was a kind of bigotry that I think many if not most Americans have, so it was kind of honest, and an interesting admission. It was like he was admitting this personal flaw, which could have taken the conversation somewhere interesting, but I don't think O'Reilly was interested in that. I don't think he was expressing any kind of political "viewpoint" at all. He just got a little too comfortable.

For me the problem with his comments is that he said he fears Muslims and that's okay. The second part is the big problem.

[GreenMonster]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But he also said that it's reasonable to be fearful of all Muslims in Muslim garb. That's the very essence of bigotry, whether he wants to admit it or not. Imagine me saying I worry my child isn't safe around anyone in Catholic garb, or I worry about my money when I see people in Jewish garb. Even if I sincerely believe it, that's still bigotry.

That being said, I think it's a poor reason to fire Williams. I don't like the witch hunts around reporters that offend a powerful constituency. NPR has a right to can him, but I wouldn't have for this offense.

IMO he should have been fired long ago for dancing around the rules at NPR. They are very tight on what their reporters can do(they recently banned reporters from attending the Stewart/Colbert rally off duty). Williams has also become a stale source of conventional wisdom and doesn't offer NPR anything they can't get elsewhere for far less money and headaches.

A black lady and here small child get into an elevator with 4 white men in leather jackets with shaved heads. Are you saying if she is fearful in anyway "That's the very essence of bigotry, whether she wants to admit it or not."

[Ronnie Dobbs2]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

He suggested a banning for a poster that said something he disagreed with politically. That's what I find ironic. The actual identity of SteveBollea is irrelevant.

On my phone so I apologize for brevity. You're wrog. I disagree with a lot of people's opinions here (yours often) and have no interest in banning them. Jesse (and it IS Jesse) is just acting like the same person he was that got him banned originally. I am just surprised that someone would actually like a prick, get banned, and come back and not think that perhaps be should develop a different tone.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GreenMonster

A black lady and here small child get into an elevator with 4 white men in leather jackets with shaved heads. Are you saying if she is fearful in anyway "That's the very essence of bigotry, whether she wants to admit it or not."

If she extends that to I'm fearful of all white men with short hair and that's okay, yes that's the very essence of bigotry.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

But he also said that it's reasonable to be fearful of all Muslims in Muslim garb. That's the very essence of bigotry, whether he wants to admit it or not.

Over the years I've known quite a few Muslim's that did not dress in "Muslim garb". Particularly in Turkey, but also in the US Military. There are definately different levels of "Muslim garb". Can I look at somebody and react differently based on how they look? Absolutely. That's not bigotry or racism.

In any event, while working in Turkey, I had the opportunity to work with the Turkish National Police on one occassion (think of them as the Turkish FBI equivalent). We were cruising through a village on the outskirts of Adana and saw some women that were head to toe in their traditional black garb.

The Turkish officer noted that women dressed in that Muslim garb were noteworthy because "their men" were the one's the Turkish govt really had to worry about because the fundamentalist extremist was the source of "angst" against the western leaning Turkish goverment. I didn't consider that Muslim officer a bigot when he mentioned that to me, not towards Muslims anyway, probably against Kurds though.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Over the years I've known quite a few Muslim's that did not dress in "Muslim garb". Particularly in Turkey, but also in the US Military. There are definately different levels of "Muslim garb". Can I look at somebody and react differently based on how they look? Absolutely. That's not bigotry or racism.

Sorry, but if you say it's okay to view all of them as dangerous that is bigotry. Recognizing you are making assumptions based on race or religion is natural, saying those assumptions are justified is the problem.

Williams is also stupid if he thinks the ones to fear are the ones who are obviously Muslim, but that's a different discussion.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Sorry, but if you say it's okay to view all of them as dangerous that is bigotry. Recognizing you are making assumptions based on race or religion is natural, saying those assumptions are justified is the problem.

Williams is also stupid if he thinks the ones to fear are the ones who are obviously Muslim, but that's a different discussion.

I would say before Muslim terrorists started using commercial airlines as weapons, it would be bigotry. After DOZENS of uses, it's profiling. I agree with him, I can't help but get a little nervous when I see young male Muslims on aircraft with me. Not dangerous...just I know the possibility is there.

[JPhillips]

Again, the feeling isn't the problem for me. I've posted about how I recognize racist feelings as I'm driving to my work. My problem with Williams is that he didn't say these feelings were bigoted, but natural. He said they weren't bigoted and defended them. Saying all people at airports in Muslim garb are dangerous when ZERO people in Muslim garb have committed terrorist acts in the U.S. is absolutely bigotry. What else could it be when you judge an entire group of people based on clothing?

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by GreenMonster

A black lady and here small child get into an elevator with 4 white men in leather jackets with shaved heads. Are you saying if she is fearful in anyway "That's the very essence of bigotry, whether she wants to admit it or not."

Let's get the answer from Juan Williams:

The elevator question is disingenuous. I suspect you are suggesting that I am a white woman getting into an apartment building elevator with a strange black man. Of course, black women have just as much to fear as white women. Nevertheless, black women living in black neighborhoods ride elevators with black men frequently, and do so without being raped. In this situation and all others, common sense is my constant guard. Common sense becomes racism when skin color becomes a formula for figuring out who is a danger to me.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

Again, the feeling isn't the problem for me. I've posted about how I recognize racist feelings as I'm driving to my work. My problem with Williams is that he didn't say these feelings were bigoted, but natural. He said they weren't bigoted and defended them. Saying all people at airports in Muslim garb are dangerous when ZERO people in Muslim garb have committed terrorist acts in the U.S. is absolutely bigotry. What else could it be when you judge an entire group of people based on clothing?

"But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous."

Maybe we are talking about two different sound bites. I'm working off of this one.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dutch

Maybe we are talking about two different sound bites. I'm working off of this one.

We're talking about the same thing, I just think you need to look at the longer quote.

I'm not a bigot. You know the kind of books I've written about the civil rights movement in this country. But when I get on the plane, I got to tell you, if I see people who are in Muslim garb and I think, you know, they are identifying themselves first and foremost as Muslims, I get worried. I get nervous. Now, I remember also that when the Times Square bomber was at court, I think this was just last week. He said the war with Muslims, America's war is just beginning, first drop of blood. I don't think there's any way to get away from these facts.

[Dutch]

So the first part doesn't prove bigotry but the two thoughts together does? I don't get it.

[EagleFan]

Look at it this way...

A serial killer is terrorizing an area and the only thing that the public know about him is that he wears a red hat. You are walking at night and when you tun the corner you see someone with a red hat walking towards you. What do you feel?

It's not bigotry, it's called being freaking human and having a survival instinct. The only people to be blamed for someone feeling nervous about seeing a muslim on a plane are the radicals that caused the problem in the first place.

[JPhillips]

To paraphrase, he's saying,

I'm nervous when I see people in Muslim garb because the fact is that the Muslims want to kill us all.