Lakers vs Magic and the 2008-2009 NBA Playoffs/Finals Thread

[Philliesfan980]

One of the stupidest, most illogical rules in sports - Letting the team advance the ball to half court without letting any seconds elapse off the clock after a timeout.

I know it's been a rule forever, and maybe I'm just not seeing the other side of the hat here. What's the logic in this rule? It's obviously a much harder shot if they have to inbound the ball from the end line and travel the length of the court in 1 second. I just don't get the justification in letting a team take the ball to half court just because they had a timeout. I realize this results in more dramatic final plays, but it's almost like letting a team in the 9th to hit the ball from second base instead of hitting from home plate. It's nuts.

[k0ruptr]

both series at 1-1, this is fantastic!

[Easy Mac]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

One of the stupidest, most illogical plays in sports - Letting the team advance the ball to half court without letting any seconds elapse off the clock after a timeout.

I know it's been a rule forever, and maybe I'm just not seeing the other side of the hat here. What's the logic in this rule? It's obviously a much harder shot if they have to inbound the ball from the end line and travel the length of the court in 1 second.

yeah, I wondered about that 20 pages ago. I think it is to create moments like that.

Although, Christian Laettner>>>>>>>>>>>Lebron James

[Young Drachma]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

One of the stupidest, most illogical rules in sports - Letting the team advance the ball to half court without letting any seconds elapse off the clock after a timeout.

I know it's been a rule forever, and maybe I'm just not seeing the other side of the hat here. What's the logic in this rule? It's obviously a much harder shot if they have to inbound the ball from the end line and travel the length of the court in 1 second.

Makes for an interesting tactical circumstance. Maybe because the other team could call timeout to rest their guys before the other team has to run up the whole court?

[larrymcg421]

Actually the rule I hate worse is the fouling when up by 3 and the team is forced to the line. It seems a fundamentally wrong concept in sports that you can commit a penalty and it actually punishes the opposing team.

My solution would be that a team has the right to refuse free throws and can instead take the ball out.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually the rule I hate worse is the fouling when up by 3 and the team is forced to the line. It seems a fundamentally wrong concept in sports that you can commit a penalty and it actually punishes the opposing team.

My solution would be that a team has the right to refuse free throws and can instead take the ball out.

You're right. Also a very dumb rule. I guess the flip side of your solution would be they could just keep fouling. Could you see any downside in that? Maybe try and time the foul and chuck up a basket so you could potentially get 3 from the line?

Either way, I agree that basketball in particular has some crazy, illogical rules.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually the rule I hate worse is the fouling when up by 3 and the team is forced to the line. It seems a fundamentally wrong concept in sports that you can commit a penalty and it actually punishes the opposing team.

My solution would be that a team has the right to refuse free throws and can instead take the ball out.

That would be interesting. I don't know how many people in here watch soccer but if they could adapt the advantage rule to the NBA somehow that could get rid of some of these issues. This could also be applied to those fouls in the middle of the game where players intentionally foul to break up fast breaks.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

One of the stupidest, most illogical rules in sports - Letting the team advance the ball to half court without letting any seconds elapse off the clock after a timeout.

I know it's been a rule forever, and maybe I'm just not seeing the other side of the hat here. What's the logic in this rule? It's obviously a much harder shot if they have to inbound the ball from the end line and travel the length of the court in 1 second. I just don't get the justification in letting a team take the ball to half court just because they had a timeout. I realize this results in more dramatic final plays, but it's almost like letting a team in the 9th to hit the ball from second base instead of hitting from home plate. It's nuts.

It's a stupid rule if you look at it completely objectively. But the rule has also produced some of the most memorable moments in sports history.

[Young Drachma]

Baseball has way worse rules than basketball, though. And a lot of it in the NBA is just interpretation like fouls and such alike.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It's a stupid rule if you look at it completely objectively. But the rule has also produced some of the most memorable moments in sports history.

True, I would agree with that. But why do sporting events have to be memorable? Why can't they just let the games play out. If that rule wasn't in effect, Cleveland probably loses the game 90/100 times. With them inbounding the ball at mid court, they probably go to a 60/40 lose/win proposition.

It's just not right. Really I just hate Lebron James, for no good reason either. I just don't like the guy. That is all.

What's more memorable to me is having Orlando up 2-0 on the road against a heavily favored Cleveland team.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

Baseball has way worse rules than basketball, though.

Care to list an example or two?

[k0ruptr]

Maybe hes just to good for you to like?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Actually the rule I hate worse is the fouling when up by 3 and the team is forced to the line. It seems a fundamentally wrong concept in sports that you can commit a penalty and it actually punishes the opposing team.

My solution would be that a team has the right to refuse free throws and can instead take the ball out.

All sports have it though. It's just using the rules to your advantage. Intentional walks and taking a knee in football fall under the same category.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

True, I would agree with that. But why do sporting events have to be memorable? Why can't they just let the games play out. If that rule wasn't in effect, Cleveland probably loses the game 90/100 times. With them inbounding the ball at mid court, they probably go to a 60/40 lose/win proposition.

It's just not right. Really I just hate Lebron James, for no good reason either. I just don't like the guy. That is all.

What's more memorable to me is having Orlando up 2-0 on the road against a heavily favored Cleveland team.

Because ultimately the sport is entertainment. Entertainment for the 20,000 in the arena and the millions watching at home.

Why do they call fouls for hand-checking? Or have a 3-second rule in the paint? It's rules to make the game more exciting for the fans. The rules are the same for both teams so I don't see why it's such a big deal. It could have been Orlando hitting the buzzer beater.

[Big Fo]

The rule also ensures that timeouts have value and that teams are punished if they blow all their TOs too quickly.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Because ultimately the sport is entertainment. Entertainment for the 20,000 in the arena and the millions watching at home.

Why do they call fouls for hand-checking? Or have a 3-second rule in the paint? It's rules to make the game more exciting for the fans. The rules are the same for both teams so I don't see why it's such a big deal. It could have been Orlando hitting the buzzer beater.

I'm what I would call a casual basketball fan. I probably watch 6-7 games to completion throughout the year, and watch highlights on sports center for the rest.

If the team did the same thing with 9:23 in the second quarter (call a timeout after the opposing team just scored a basket), would that team get the ball at midcourt? I guess as long as the ball placement is identical at 9:23 in the second quarter as it is with 0:01 in the fourth quarter, we can argue the rule is stupid, but at least it's uniform.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

I'm what I would call a casual basketball fan. I probably watch 6-7 games to completion throughout the year, and watch highlights on sports center for the rest.

If the team did the same thing with 9:23 in the second quarter (call a timeout after the opposing team just scored a basket), would that team get the ball at midcourt? I guess as long as the ball placement is identical at 9:23 in the second quarter as it is with 0:01 in the fourth quarter, we can argue the rule is stupid, but at least it's uniform.

The same thing would happen, yes.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

All sports have it though. It's just using the rules to your advantage. Intentional walks and taking a knee in football fall under the same category.

I don't have a problem with teams using the rule. They absolutely should. I just think it's a stupid rule and should be scrapped. Taking a knee is different, because that team earned possession. The equivalent of the NBA rule would be if you could force a team to kick a FG when you're up by 7.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

The rule also ensures that timeouts have value and that teams are punished if they blow all their TOs too quickly.

I can see your argument there, but does the punishment really fit the crime?

Getting the ball at half court isn't just a token advantage, it's a HUGE advantage. It's not even close.

[Big Fo]

Ugh, watching the replay over and over again what the fuck is Lewis doing? If he wasn't going to do anything to bother the passer he might as well have been doubling LBJ.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

Why can't they just let the games play out. If that rule wasn't in effect, Cleveland probably loses the game 90/100 times. With them inbounding the ball at mid court, they probably go to a 60/40 lose/win proposition.

It's just not right. Really I just hate Lebron James, for no good reason either. I just don't like the guy. That is all.

If you have someone on the bench who knows what he's doing they still lose 90/100 times whether the ball is at half court or not. They keep showing the replay and it just makes no sense what Van Gundy had Orlando doing.

Lewis is a mile off the inbounder - if he's up in his face like Collins (a guy who knows how to coach) says then the passer cannot throw a perfect pass to a wide open Lebron. On top of that the guy inbounding is 6-1 Mo Williams. If Lewis is on the ball Williams has to throw it over someone 9 inches tall then he is. The only thing Lewis is taking away in that spot is a catch and shoot at the elbow for someone going across their body away from the basket. Why take that away? He's got no pressure on the inbound pass and is in no position to help on any pass. Either put him directly on the ball or put him on Lebron too.

Then Pietrus is going towards half court to defend Pavlovic. I guess I blame Pietrus on that because what is Pavlovic going to do catching the ball as he runs away from the basket? A fadeaway half courter? Had Pietrus stayed near the top of the key he too would have been in the passing lane.

This is basic stuff. Lebron hit a hell of a shot but if you let the MVP catch the ball cleanly at the top of the key something bad might happen. They couldn't even force him to go to the ball side which would have made the shot more difficult. Again, not taking anything away from Lebron - that was a clutch shot that may have saved a shot at the title for them - but its not like he made a fadeaway half court hook shot - he hit a semi contested jumper from the top of the key. And then Van Gundy shrugs his shoulders like there was nothing he could have done to avoid that from happening.

[Gary Gorski]

And for the record, I'm going into my database right now to drop Stan Van Gundy's coaching ratings for DDSPB2

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

I can see your argument there, but does the punishment really fit the crime?

Getting the ball at half court isn't just a token advantage, it's a HUGE advantage. It's not even close.

I dunno man. I can't say I've ever had a problem with the rule and still don't even after my team got beaten because of it tonight. Maybe it's because it's been that way since I started watching NBA games...

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

I don't have a problem with teams using the rule. They absolutely should. I just think it's a stupid rule and should be scrapped. Taking a knee is different, because that team earned possession. The equivalent of the NBA rule would be if you could force a team to kick a FG when you're up by 7.

What about teams who take a safety on purpose so they can avoid a big mistake on a punt? I just don't think you can ever build a system where rules won't get twisted to the advantage of teams.

While the NFL team has earned it by having possesion, you can argue that the NBA team has earned it by being up 3 points. If you don't want to get fouled down 3, don't get down 3.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

And for the record, I'm going into my database right now to drop Stan Van Gundy's coaching ratings for DDSPB2

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Philliesfan980

I'm what I would call a casual basketball fan. I probably watch 6-7 games to completion throughout the year, and watch highlights on sports center for the rest.

If the team did the same thing with 9:23 in the second quarter (call a timeout after the opposing team just scored a basket), would that team get the ball at midcourt? I guess as long as the ball placement is identical at 9:23 in the second quarter as it is with 0:01 in the fourth quarter, we can argue the rule is stupid, but at least it's uniform.

It's to make the game more exciting. Just like how the NFL stops the clock for good on out of bounds plays in the final 2 minutes of the first half and final 5 of the 4th quarter.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

What about teams who take a safety on purpose so they can avoid a big mistake on a punt? I just don't think you can ever build a system where rules won't get twisted to the advantage of teams.

While the NFL team has earned it by having possesion, you can argue that the NBA team has earned it by being up 3 points. If you don't want to get fouled down 3, don't get down 3.

But you're arguing different situations. No one would support an NFL rule where you could commit a penalty and force the opponent to kick a FG when they were down 7.

I certainly don't think it's wrong for an NBA team to be able to dribble the clock out if they have possession and lead late in the game. That's the equivalent of the NFL rule you're citing.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

This is basic stuff. Lebron hit a hell of a shot but if you let the MVP catch the ball cleanly at the top of the key something bad might happen. They don't even force him to go to the ball side which would have made the shot more difficult. Again, not taking anything away from Lebron - that was a clutch shot that may have saved a shot at the title for them - but its not like he made a fadeaway half court hook shot - he hit a semi contested jumper from the top of the key. And then Van Gundy shrugs his shoulders like there was nothing he could have done to avoid that from happening.

By the time of the press conference SVG realized that he messed up at least. Hopefully he didn't tell Lewis to stand two yards away from the inbounder or else I'd really be

[RainMaker]

I know SVG finished that game horribly, but I don't think he's a bad coach. I mean Orlando isn't anything special talentwise and he has them a few games from the NBA Finals.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know SVG finished that game horribly, but I don't think he's a bad coach. I mean Orlando isn't anything special talentwise and he has them a few games from the NBA Finals.

Valid point. I'd have to actually do a little research to back this up but off the top of my head I bet Orlando has a worse backcourt than any NBA "final four" team in recent history.

tbh I don't think there are any special teams talentwise this year, even the Lakers and Cavs are good but not great no matter how many regular season wins they piled up.

I would love to see several of the crappier franchises contracted to increase the depth on the good teams.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

By the time of the press conference SVG realized that he messed up at least. Hopefully he didn't tell Lewis to stand two yards away from the inbounder or else I'd really be

Well either way that's on him - either he told him to stand that far off or he was planning which buffet to hit post game and didn't do anything in the timeout. Why would he not draw up a defensive play to stop them and one of the basic components of that would be is somebody defending the inbound passer or not.

It's not the first time SVG has blundered away a game in these playoffs and it probably won't be the last either.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

Valid point. I'd have to actually do a little research to back this up but off the top of my head I bet Orlando has a worse backcourt than any NBA "final four" team in recent history.

tbh I don't think there are any special teams talentwise this year, even the Lakers and Cavs are good but not great no matter how many regular season wins they piled up.

I would love to see several of the crappier franchises contracted to increase the depth on the good teams.

I think talentwise from top to bottom, the Lakers are pretty good. 2nd best player in the league, a legit All-Star inside, and a lot of good veteran players.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

But you're arguing different situations. No one would support an NFL rule where you could commit a penalty and force the opponent to kick a FG when they were down 7.

I certainly don't think it's wrong for an NBA team to be able to dribble the clock out if they have possession and lead late in the game. That's the equivalent of the NFL rule you're citing.

Different sports so it's tough to compare. I'm simply saying that in every sport, rules are switched around to benefit teams. Changing the rules on fouls would make the end of games extremely boring and small leads insurmountable.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Different sports so it's tough to compare. I'm simply saying that in every sport, rules are switched around to benefit teams. Changing the rules on fouls would make the end of games extremely boring and small leads insurmountable.

How would it do this? I'm simply saying a team could refuse to take the free throws and instead get to take the ball out.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know SVG finished that game horribly, but I don't think he's a bad coach. I mean Orlando isn't anything special talentwise and he has them a few games from the NBA Finals.

Ok well he's not a coach that belongs at this stage of the game at least - he might be well liked by the players, he may be a good motivator and it seems like he's able to get his players to rally when they are down and not quit - all those things are signs of good coaching. But like Shaq says - when the game is on the line he just doesn't get it done. This isn't a meaningless December game. Going up 2-0 after coming back from big defecits in both games in Cleveland where the Cavs have been almost unbeatable with 3 home games still coming probably meant a trip to the NBA Finals. Now who knows - Cleveland takes one back in Orlando and it's the Cavs series to lose again - which with Mike Brown on their side they very well might do but still, this was a MASSIVE screw up - one that a coach like Phil Jackson doesn't make and didn't make the other night in Game 1.

[stevew]

How badly do you rate Brown in DDS?

I'd say
Defense- A-
Offense- F+
Adjustments F-
Motivation F-

[TroyF]

Just horrible, horrible coaching by Van Gundy. He cost his team the basketball game. Both underdogs have had horrible coaching decisions cost them big.

Great, great shot by Lebron. I've been waiting for him to hit a shot like that for a long time.

Quick side note: How important was the missed T now? It's not even a question, the ball was thrown at another player. there are bad calls that impact point totals, but rarely do you have such an obvious missed call. That lost point ends up being a huge play in the game.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Just horrible, horrible coaching by Van Gundy. He cost his team the basketball game. Both underdogs have had horrible coaching decisions cost them big.

Great, great shot by Lebron. I've been waiting for him to hit a shot like that for a long time.

Quick side note: How important was the missed T now? It's not even a question, the ball was thrown at another player. there are bad calls that impact point totals, but rarely do you have such an obvious missed call. That lost point ends up being a huge play in the game.

It's in the first quarter, I don't think it factors into the game at all. Now if it was in the last minute of the game, sure.

[stevew]

And Simmons needs to do a "Bad head coaches summit" column. Much like his bad GM one.

[Big Fo]

Who are the good coaches in the NBA anyway? Jackson and Popovich? Anyone else?

Brown, SVG, Adelman, Rivers, Carlisle, Woodson, Karl, and Jackson were the guys in the final eight this year. Other than Pop it's hard for me to think of anyone all that good outside of the successful teams this year.

[stevew]

I'd be hard pressed to name half the coaches in the league this year. When Mike Brown makes guys like Doc Rivers and Stan Van(well almost) look like tactical genuises I just know the following. He's bad.

[Neon_Chaos]

I think JVG is a better coach than his brother.

[RainMaker]

I think NBA coaches are still extremely overated. Doc Rivers was considered a horrible coach a couple years ago and on the verge of being fired. Add a few superstars and he's Coach of the Year. I think a good coach can get the most out of certain players in the right situation, but I don't think they win you titles. Talent is still 98% of the game in my book.

[stevew]

Alright, I just read this in the ESPN game recap. this doesn't make any fuckin sense, or am i reading it wrong.
Orlando Magic vs. Cleveland Cavaliers - Recap - May 22, 2009 - ESPN

Their offense out of whack and their defense not up to its usual standards, the Cavaliers let the Magic overcome a huge deficit for the second straight game.

Turkoglu's 3-pointer with 48.7 seconds left had tied it 93-93, and the Cavs appeared to take the lead on James' left-handed layup over Howard. But he was called for traveling, one of several calls that could have gone either way in a second half filled with whistles.

"That walk -- great call by the refs," James said, "glad I had a chance to redeem myself."

Turkoglu's shot over Sasha Pavlovic, who gave the Cavs a lift off the bench with nine points, had Cleveland fans reliving all those moments of sports heartbreak -- Jordan's Shot, John Elway's Drive, The Fumble -- that have led to the city's 45-year championship drought.

James, though, the kid from down the Interstate in nearby Akron, restored their confidence that this might finally be Cleveland's season.

Down by 23 in the second quarter the Magic were within 12 at halftime.

By the end of the third they had cut it to six, and when Lewis backed down Delonte West and scored on a short jumper with 6:12 left, Orlando had tied it at 84-all.

The Cavaliers' offense wasn't particularly efficient, but it was effective. Their defense was spectacular.

Unlike Game 1, the Magic struggled to get the ball deep in the lane to Howard. And when the All-Star center did touch it near the basket, he had a man between himself and the rim and sometimes two other Cleveland defenders pestering him from behind.

[Big Fo]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Well either way that's on him - either he told him to stand that far off or he was planning which buffet to hit post game and didn't do anything in the timeout. Why would he not draw up a defensive play to stop them and one of the basic components of that would be is somebody defending the inbound passer or not.

It's not the first time SVG has blundered away a game in these playoffs and it probably won't be the last either.

Even though SVG blamed himself in the post-game press conference, if you are the player that is told to guard the inbounds pass, shouldn't you know to actually contest the damn pass without being told to?

He's made me shake my head a few times in these playoffs but I really don't think (or at least hope) he didn't tell Lewis and co. to stand around and just hope the shot didn't go in.

re: what TroyF said

Glad you mentioned the missed T in a one point game. Three refs on the court and nobody see that? On the replay the ref's head was pointed in that exact direction. Maybe there was a pretty lady in the stands distracting him but the game was in Ohio so I'm doubtful.

[Karlifornia]

Wow. How are people shitting on Stan Van Gundy over that last play? LeBron hit a 23 footer with a hand in his face at the buzzer.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

The rule also ensures that timeouts have value and that teams are punished if they blow all their TOs too quickly.

Teams have WAY too many timeouts in basketball as it is.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I think JVG is a better coach than his brother.

JVG is a better coach than most of the guys in the league - he could get any opening he wanted I bet but he seems to like the TV gig. If you listen to him during broadcasts you'll quickly realize he really, really knows the Xs and Os

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

Wow. How are people shitting on Stan Van Gundy over that last play? LeBron hit a 23 footer with a hand in his face at the buzzer.

Because when you get a timeout to instruct your players how to properly defend an out of bounds play where the opposing team has ONE second to catch and shoot and your team comes out and gives up a barely contested jumper to the league's MVP then someone screwed up big time.

I don't know for sure but I'm guessing that SVG matched the guys up and put them in their positions - after all that is his job. Why Hedo guarding Lebron and not Pietrus? Why isn't Lewis on the ball? Why is Pietrus defending someone cutting towards half court? The Cavs didn't run any fancy play or make some crazy shot. They cleared out the top of the key, Lebron made a v-cut, Hedo bit on it and 6-1 Mo Williams had nobody standing between him and a perfect pass to a wide open Lebron for a top of the key three. Some basic, simple instruction is the difference between Orlando having their foot on Cleveland's neck and the Cavs having new life in the series. That seems like a pretty good reason to put that one on Van Gundy.

Maybe Orlando wins the series and this becomes a non-issue like the game he masterfully choked away against Boston but if the Cavs win I don't know how you can't look at the final second of the game and wonder what if he had done his job the right way.

[miami_fan]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Teams have WAY too many timeouts in basketball as it is.

Tell that to Vinny Del Negro