Werewolf LXXII: Chess (Checkmate!)

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

From the moment that most of the the white team members lynched the black queen, I thought it was already a given.

Neon, in all seriousness and at least for me, I am willing to set the chess aside to get wolves. This seems crazy to let them pick us off as we argue with each other. At least this way, we team village-village against one enemy and then we resume fighting with each other later. But if either team is going to overcome the wolves and win, they're going to need the help of the other.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Neon, which sounds better?

A- We continue on our current path, trying to play chess while we wildly vote each other off and wolves pick us off

or

B- We stop the chess for now, mutually attack the wolves through scans, vote them off, and then return to play a straight up game of chess with no wolf obstacles

It's your call, I guess, but A seems to make a crap-load more sense to me.

Well, us losing out best piece to the lynch basically hurts out chances of winning the game via chess with or without the wolves.

I think it's best for the black team if we don't help you lynch the wolves... who knows, they might kill your queen and even things up.

As it is, the game is already heavily in favor for white that it's not even remotely funny.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Yeah, I'm an idiot everyday.

Sorry, wife told me that I should correct this statement of mine as well.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Neon, in all seriousness and at least for me, I am willing to set the chess aside to get wolves. This seems crazy to let them pick us off as we argue with each other. At least this way, we team village-village against one enemy and then we resume fighting with each other later. But if either team is going to overcome the wolves and win, they're going to need the help of the other.

It seems crazy for white... not for black.

We need the wolves' help right now to at least tilt this game back into some sort of balance.

Actually, if either Black or the Wolves have a chance to win, the black pieces and the wolves have to overcome the heavy advantage that white has right now.

[st.cronin]

The white team has the voting power, Neon. You should be trying to convince us to vote for a wolf, not goading us into voting off your pieces.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Well, us losing out best piece to the lynch basically hurts out chances of winning the game via chess with or without the wolves.

I think it's best for the black team if we don't help you lynch the wolves... who knows, they might kill your queen and even things up.

As it is, the game is already heavily in favor for white that it's not even remotely funny.

I do agree that things have swung VERY heavily in our favor. Losing the pawns hurts your voting ability, losing Hoops (even though a wolf) hurt your numbers, and losing CR was a huge blow. I can't pretend it isn't, but ultimately and honestly, I would rather see you guys win than the wolves which is why I'm willing to put the game itself aside for now.

And mind you, I am speaking from the team that is winning at chess, saying let's pause this and get wolves. You can take that two ways, that I'm genuine or I'm trying to use you guys as a means for offing wolves for the white team's benefit. It's up to you to think where I'm coming from but frankly and honestly, to some degree, it's both. We need to use each other to even have a chance to genuinely beat the wolves or have a shot to win the game.

For the record, I don't believe I did vote for your queen although I was tempted to from a chess game standpoint. I can only speak for myself, I'm willing to make this work in order to off wolves.

[Passacaglia]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Sorry, wife told me that I should correct this statement of mine as well.

hehehe

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

It seems crazy for white... not for black.

We need the wolves' help right now to at least tilt this game back into some sort of balance.

Actually, if either Black or the Wolves have a chance to win, the black pieces and the wolves have to overcome the heavy advantage that white has right now.

Are you casting your dye with the wolves here? I guess for black you have to make a choice, I just think this is an odd one given that villager-villager, even if rivals, is closer than villager-wolf.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

Are you casting your dye with the wolves here? I guess for black you have to make a choice, I just think this is an odd one given that villager-villager, even if rivals, is closer than villager-wolf.

This is not villager vs. wolves.

This is white vs. black vs. wolves.

White has the advantage.

Logic dictates that black and the wolves have to work together to bring down white, until it is realistically possible for both sides to prevent white from getting the easy win.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

The white team has the voting power, Neon. You should be trying to convince us to vote for a wolf, not goading us into voting off your pieces.

Actually, I am surprised you haven't done that yet.

If you think that you have the solid voting power then keep voting us off, win the game, and get it over with. Why are you even bothering to look for the wolves?

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

This is not villager vs. wolves.

This is white vs. black vs. wolves.

White has the advantage.

Logic dictates that black and the wolves have to work together to bring down white, until it is realistically possible for both sides to prevent white from getting the easy win.

What is the advantage for the wolves to come to black's side? Seriously, the black have been decimated.

If Cronin believes that one wolf is left, then it has to be on white's side as Hoops was already the black wolf.

So the wolves can just help the white pick off the remainder of the blacks and then start feasting on their own.

If white is truly being as magnamimous as they're trying to be, they should sacrifice a few pieces to keep the game level.

However, that doesn't make a whole lick of sense.

(puff puff)

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Actually, I am surprised you haven't done that yet.

If you think that you have the solid voting power then keep voting us off, win the game, and get it over with. Why are you even bothering to look for the wolves?

- Because I don't think our piece advantage is as compelling as you seem to think it is. This has the form of chess, but unlike chess nobody can see the whole board or direct all the pieces - so an advantage of a rook and a queen, crippling in real chess, has an uncertain value here.

- Because I am here to play werewolf. I would be less aggrieved if Black won than if the wolves won.

But, if you're not willing to cooperate, I'm happy to play the game the way you think we should play.

[st.cronin]

Qwik, you misunderstood - I believe there is one BLACK wolf left, and two White wolves.

[Qwikshot]

So is it in everyone's assumption that:

A) Neonchaos is not a wolf
B) The Jackal is not a wolf

I would think these to be absolutes?

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

- Because I don't think our piece advantage is as compelling as you seem to think it is. This has the form of chess, but unlike chess nobody can see the whole board or direct all the pieces - so an advantage of a rook and a queen, crippling in real chess, has an uncertain value here.

- Because I am here to play werewolf. I would be less aggrieved if Black won than if the wolves won.

But, if you're not willing to cooperate, I'm happy to play the game the way you think we should play.

The white pieces already played the game "that way" when they voted off the black queen. I see no sense in why that should change.

Come and get me.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Qwik, you misunderstood - I believe there is one BLACK wolf left, and two White wolves.

You know what I /like/ you because you shorten my name to Qwik instead of Quik...

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

So is it in everyone's assumption that:

A) Neonchaos is not a wolf
B) The Jackal is not a wolf

I would think these to be absolutes?

I am the Black King. I cannot be a wolf.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Qwikshot

So is it in everyone's assumption that:

A) Neonchaos is not a wolf
B) The Jackal is not a wolf

I would think these to be absolutes?

I don't think we can be sure about The Jackal.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Qwik, you misunderstood - I believe there is one BLACK wolf left, and two White wolves.

The funny thing is, though I"m white, I look at this statement and think:

7 black players left, 1 wolf = 14%
9 white players left, 2 wolves, subtracting myself = 25%

So I actually think we *should* vote white. In which case as I'm believing my partners and Jackals innocence that pops two people into my head: Cronin and PB.

[jeheinz72]

I think what we're all a bit forgetting here, especially Neon, is that not everyone is 100% sure of their color I don't think. I wouldn't be surprised if some people voted CR thinking their white but who aren't actually white yet.

[st.cronin]

Heinz, I actually think the white queen might be a wolf.

[st.cronin]

Dola - I don't know who the white queen is, and I'm not too sure about that.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

I am the Black King. I cannot be a wolf.

yes yes...we /know/ that. There is still a secondary game here which I'm interested in, to find wolves by speculation and data collection. There is no guarentee that you would have had a fair fight anyway as with the wolves and the fact that each piece is independently controlled, that the situation wouldn't have been worse.

If anything, the whites are trying to parlay this into a truce in effort to find wolves, this may or may not be a ruse, but it's better than nothing.

If one black piece is still suspected as a wolves, then white should be nervous as that means two pieces of theirs are still affected.

If we know the rooks were affected but now are clean
then we have to assume bishops, pawns, or knights are affected.

But I'm willing to venture that the white queen could also be a wolf as it was proven that the black queen was not.

So if we are to guess, whom do we guess from what group is most likely now to be hiding a wolf?

(puff puff)

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

I think what we're all a bit forgetting here, especially Neon, is that not everyone is 100% sure of their color I don't think. I wouldn't be surprised if some people voted CR thinking their white but who aren't actually white yet.

at that point, everyone except the pawns knew what color they were.

bishops, kings, and queens know what their colors are.

the knights and rooks all knew their colors by virtue of hoops (black rook) and barkeep (white knight) dying.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I'm thinking the same thing. What are your opinions on my plan of having the wolf-seeing pieces reveal, the bodyguard pieces guard them (switching off one to the other each night) and getting (hopefully) a lot of scans in and a ton of information out? You're a vet player, so I'm curious if this is a good play or bad play. I know that normally reveals like this are bad but given the ability of the bodyguards to switch off, we can guarantee protection until the wolves hit the bodyguards.

For the record this is why I mentioned PB earlier.

Anyone who wants seer-types to reveal in *advance* of having information screams wolf to me. Bodyguards or not, once that info is out there, it's out there. Plus we're down one BG against wolf attacks (granted Hoops could have been lying I suppose). So you're basically asking us to play a Shell Game with the 3 knights and our lone wolf-protector.

Not to mention that I'm thinking our knights are on black, so

A) It'll be some time before they can even efficiently scan wolves since more wolves are on the white half of the board proportionally

B) Even if those knights could safely traverse the board (not get killed by white or wolves) I find it hard to imagine they'd know where to move to get within range accurately of a person they even think is a wolf

C) Even accurately making a list of people who they think are wolves is in and of itself is a slim probability.

The whole argument/idea seems so flimsy.

Frankly, I think I've talked myself into it for the time being

Unvote Lathum
Vote PurdueBrad

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Dola - I don't know who the white queen is, and I'm not too sure about that.

Then I'm confused given this and the preceeding statement.

Why do you think the White Queen is the wolf is you don't know who that is?

[st.cronin]

Because the white queen blocked my movement, preventing The Jackal from scanning me. It may have a move time issue, and the Queen may not even know which piece I am. But if the Queen was a wolf, and knew which piece I was, they would have wanted to block my movement.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

at that point, everyone except the pawns knew what color they were.

bishops, kings, and queens know what their colors are.

the knights and rooks all knew their colors by virtue of hoops (black rook) and barkeep (white knight) dying.

Actually, you're right and I think everyone knows what color they are now since KWhit died.

But it does prove my point that as of the vote yesterday not everyone knew. I mean KWhit, a black piece, did a 4-vote hit to CR yesterday.

It's a minor point, but before you go saying "White killed off my queen etc etc etc" it's important to note that black played a part in that too. Plus you were the one who told us that he was the Queen. Heck, I was on Lathum until you did that. Who knows what could've happened at that point.

For you to now blow off some white folks' efforts as a truce seems foolhearty.

[Qwikshot]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Because the white queen blocked my movement, preventing The Jackal from scanning me. It may have a move time issue, and the Queen may not even know which piece I am. But if the Queen was a wolf, and knew which piece I was, they would have wanted to block my movement.

That would be suspicious, it's just a question if the white king and rooks believe it.

[jeheinz72]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Because the white queen blocked my movement, preventing The Jackal from scanning me. It may have a move time issue, and the Queen may not even know which piece I am. But if the Queen was a wolf, and knew which piece I was, they would have wanted to block my movement.

Theoretically to avoid you scanning as a villager. Ok, I get that. I think it's got a good shot to be merely coincidental but atm I'm putting it in my notes for later.

[Qwikshot]

Neon,

I have this visual image of you playing chess and seeing your opponent take your queen, you say "take my queen with you" and you punch him in the face...

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

Actually, you're right and I think everyone knows what color they are now since KWhit died.

But it does prove my point that as of the vote yesterday not everyone knew. I mean KWhit, a black piece, did a 4-vote hit to CR yesterday.

It's a minor point, but before you go saying "White killed off my queen etc etc etc" it's important to note that black played a part in that too. Plus you were the one who told us that he was the Queen. Heck, I was on Lathum until you did that. Who knows what could've happened at that point.

For you to now blow off some white folks' efforts as a truce seems foolhearty.

Meh.

The basic premise is, that white needs to lose a couple more pieces before black does anything to help.

If that helps the wolves, so be it.

It's a 3-team game. One team has a huge advantage. That team needs to be trimmed down a bit.

I really don't have the energy to be argued or convinced out of my position. After all, I can't die, and I will have to listen to people rambling on about truces and such for the rest of the game.

[mccollins]

I'm finally back online and totally caught up. Considering options now...

[Narcizo]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Unvote No Lynch
Vote Narcizo

I understand this and find it ironic as it seems that we're the only two who are in agreement here.

In answer as to why white isn't co-ordinating. There are two wolves who don't want a black lynch and it would seem that there are white pieces who want to try to find the wolves. Which, in turn, makes my suspicions of Cronin seem a bit less well-founded, I have to admit. I guess I've been translating my read of the game onto everyone else. :shurg: Looks likely pawns will decide this one.

[mccollins]

I have my suspicions about people who talk a bit in this game, but if I vote for them, I still won't know anything about the UTR people.

Perhaps if I vote for an UTR person, they'll come out and defend themselves and give me a reason not to vote for them?

After the last two games (my only two here), I'm terrified of the UTR folks.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by jeheinz72

For the record this is why I mentioned PB earlier.

Anyone who wants seer-types to reveal in *advance* of having information screams wolf to me. Bodyguards or not, once that info is out there, it's out there. Plus we're down one BG against wolf attacks (granted Hoops could have been lying I suppose). So you're basically asking us to play a Shell Game with the 3 knights and our lone wolf-protector.

Heinz, unless I'm mis-reading something, we have two bodyguards vs. wolves left, not one. It wouldn't make sense for Hoops to have been given the protect against wolves power, but instead the defend a board attack power (hence to save a wolf). I'm not saying shell game. I ONLY want the two that can scan wolves (I could care less about the third knight who can scan color) to scan and I want the two bodyguards to protect them each night, as simple as that. I am STRONGLY considering switching off of Lathum and on to you because the play I've outlined is INCREDIBLY pro-villager because I don't want the bodyguards to reveal, just to protect. The seers can reveal and be protected and the wolves have to try and guess at who our bodyguards are. Although none of this matters anyway since the black King is going a different route.

[PurdueBrad]

And now I take it all back...

I just re-read the win conditions. What I've described is not pro-villager at all. I thought to win we had to beat black AND the wolves. Not the case, we only have to beat black. Screw it then. I'm voting black and attacking on the board.

Did I mention that I'm an idiot yet?

[PurdueBrad]

You know, I have spent the last two hours really proud of myself for that theory only to now find out that it was stupid. Whoever said I was a good villager last game is an idiot like me. But I feel much better in that I caught my mistake myself rather than somebody else helping to prove my idiocy. So, ummmm, yeah, white team, who are we voting off?

[st.cronin]

PB, there are a number of factors that make it potentially a bad strategy to simply vote black. There are 7 black pieces left, it would take 6 days to vote off all the non-kings, and then we still need to find and mate Neon. During that time, the wolves will be attacking US. I think going all out on black will give the wolves a victory.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

PB, there are a number of factors that make it potentially a bad strategy to simply vote black. There are 7 black pieces left, it would take 6 days to vote off all the non-kings, and then we still need to find and mate Neon. During that time, the wolves will be attacking US. I think going all out on black will give the wolves a victory.

I guess, and mind you I'm back at the drawing board at this point, isn't there less risk for us if we go after black, have our seer look for the white wolves, and play it that way? If we just pick and choose on our side with no evidence, we're essentially risking cutting out our own players for a 'chance' at a wolf. I like the guaranteed knock out the one enemy strategy and maybe get doubly-lucky and hit the wolf over there while the seer goes through all of us.

[PurdueBrad]

And while my understanding of chess is growing by the day through research and the help of my partner, isn't it more likely that we can take out Neon if we clear the board of the other black pieces?

[ntndeacon]

I really don't like PB's strategy at all. So in that vien

Vote PurdueBrad

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by PurdueBrad

I guess, and mind you I'm back at the drawing board at this point, isn't there less risk for us if we go after black, have our seer look for the white wolves, and play it that way? If we just pick and choose on our side with no evidence, we're essentially risking cutting out our own players for a 'chance' at a wolf. I like the guaranteed knock out the one enemy strategy and maybe get doubly-lucky and hit the wolf over there while the seer goes through all of us.

First of all, The Jackal has NOT been cleared, despite several people saying he is. There are still valid reasons to worry about him. Second, the limitations on his scanning ability are pretty strict. Either way, I'll be pretty surprised if he finds a wolf anytime soon. I am in favor of voting for players who are likely to be wolves. This will encourage Black to out THEIR wolf should they find him, and will force the wolves to be careful, possibly making it easier to find them. I mean, imagine you're a white wolf, and white says, ok, lets all vote black. You've got nothing to worry about, now, just be prepared to move on the board in such a way as to sabotage a potential checkmate and your team will win.

[path12]

I've likely said more than enough already which is fine because I'm swamped this morning.

Will be checking in here and there. I won't beat the same argument today.

[oliegirl]

FTR, I'm with Neon and believe that finding that working together to find the wolves is more important than the chess game right now. Even if white just attacks black and wins the chess game, they still haven't won the ww game and, at least in my opinion, it's better to get the wolves and win that game. Just because white is attacking black doesn't mean the wolves aren't going to attack white...

I'll be voting with Neon until things are more balanced or until the dynamic of the game shifts...

[PurdueBrad]

VOTE COUNT (as of 1095)

Lathum- Path (968), PurdueBrad (992), Narcizo (1023)
ntndeacon- St. Cronin (1004), Jackal (1017), Claphamsa (1027)
PurdueBrad- JEHeinz72 (1075), ntndeacon (1092)
Narcizo- Neon_Chaos (1040)
Path12- Sonic Youth (1030)
Claphamsa- RendeR (995)

Still to vote: Mccollins, Oliegirl, Qwikshot, Lathum, Anxiety

I believe this is right although feel free to correct.

[PurdueBrad]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Even if white just attacks black and wins the chess game, they still haven't won the ww game and, at least in my opinion, it's better to get the wolves and win that game.

As I said above, getting the wolves is not a win condition. This is definitely not a normal WW game in that sense. It really is black vs. white with the wolves thrown in to cause havoc.

[Qwikshot]

(puff puff)

Don't forget, pieces are going to be lost by attrition now as well. So the chaos is going to make finding wolves that much harder, and making it that much easier for their job to be done by us.

Through sheer luck, black did find a wolf, and it was hoops. Perhaps it's time that white start looking in its backyard.

I would venture to say, if there are four wolves it would be for each tier: one pawn, one bishop, one knight, one rook, or one queen...that's five...so one of these groups was left alone, or we have one additional wolf...

By night four, pawns will be seeing who is who...

But I must say, that for all of neon's grumping, let's understand something here, we all cannot see the entire board, so there is little in the way of strategy, because even the king can't see the whole board...so while I think it would be essential at some point for white to battle black, I think the main goal would be the wolf finding...because it would make far more sense for at least a king to see the board...

let's say we do find all the wolves and eliminate them...then this becomes a battle to kill kings...however, you really won't be able to talk strategy as the pawns talk to pawns, knights to knights, bishops to bishops...etc...so how could anyone achieve surprise, because all strategy is just between like pieces, not the black or white team as a whole...

This is where I agree with neon about his predicament, because this isn't a game of strategy, it's a game of brute force and luck when it comes to knocking off the king...on top of that you'll have a voter's bloc taking out pieces, wolves taking out pieces and through movement pieces getting taken out...

the storms coming...

[st.cronin]

I agree entirely with Qwik.

[claphamsa]

unvote ntn
vote pd

your missing one thing PB., only 1-2 black pieces are known, and a lot of us might be black and dont know it.....