Alright boyz, here we go!!! OOTP2006 First Impressions Thread!

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Todd - there's no "OOTP" camp - the message board,partly because of the OT, has lent itself recently to a general "fanboys" environment. There's plenty of us who are/were primarily OOTP board posters who got tired of the boards and attitudes there. That being said, I will point that I think Marc Duffy is a huge step up from Kuffrey's usual support - he seems to be actively looking at concerns and reporting back, and I have hopes for that reason that the game will be "fixed." My big worry is that this version tried to serve too many different "groups" per se, and will end up satisfying no one. One of the reasons FM is magnificent is that the AI and everything can be written for one, fixed game environment - they don't have to adjust for different Eras, to take one common example.

Acutally, I came from the ootp forums before v2 was about to get released and met Ardent in the dynasty forums. It was a great community then, but you're right.. it's changed over the years. (Probably the reason I have like 1400 posts there and 9500 here )

Edit: To be fair, I don't think Steve has the resources Marc and SI have.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Mostly the same train of thought as I have, well put indeed.

Which brings me to a post battis or something similar to that username posted over at the ootp forums (I believe he is a beta tester and is quite pleasant when user's post about issues) - he said he wished Markus would have waited until September for the release and had more time to fix issues with the game.

I had thought about that as well but think a September release is a kiss of death for a baseball game. I think if that's the case, you're better off just waiting till February and Spring Training.

The game wasn't done, it's hard to debate that. They were going up to the last minute adding important features and that just seemed odd for a game in development for as long as this one had. It's hard to imagine someone didn't poke their head out during the development and say "Hey, things aren't going as fast as they should. We either need more developers or more time". The fact that a patch was announced for the week after release is a sign that they expected an influx of complaints. It's a bit tacky to make people pay $35 to beta test your game.

I think they've done more damage by releasing a flawed game than they would have if they just delayed it another season.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well new here and came from a link on the OOTP boards. I do have to admit that many of your assesments are dead on and I was hoping I wasn't the only one going crazy thinking that this game.....well....kind of sucks. Of course any mention of that on the OOTP boards means being chased away by a couple individuals who are either a) on the payroll b) haven't played the game yet or c) playing a completely different version than the rest of us.

It's a nice forum and all, but those that do chase away individuals with legitimate complaints somewhat make it difficult for the game to improve in anyway. I'd argue that it could be a reason why this version is so bad. I'm also failing to see the correlation between sitting in your parent's basement and thinking the games roster management AI is flawed. I guess it's the next logical step after trying to encite some obscure 1940's reference where a team may have signed a star and released him weeks later and how Marcus was a genius for putting it into the game.

Either way you look at it, this game is worse than 6.51 on a number of levels. The in-game AI is flawed and they took out a lot of the functionality and control. Little things like warming up a reliever, telling a runner to stay/hold, or being able to set some strategy without going through the entire 7 pitch at-bat were important. I can deal with that, but the in-game management is poor as well. I'm seeing stars being pinch hit for by bench guys late for no reason. I would get into the bullpen management, but I honestly could write about that for days. All I know is that my last game so the starter go 4, 4 relievers go a 1/3 (including the closer) and the 5th have to finish out the entire game. I guess if they need another pitcher, they can take a look in LF to find one playing there.

As many have alluded to, the transactions are ridiculous. Besides the ridiculous signing/releasing of new stars, I'm seeing stars being traded for next to nothing. There is no rhyme or reason to trading either. Contenders don't try to pick up help and teams out of the race don't unload vets for prospects. Contracts also seem to have absolutely no relevance either as guys in their final year don't get traded and are just as hard to trade to contenders for "contract reasons". I haven't even mentioned how ridiculous the trading interface is without them giving you an idea of what a player is worth. Oh, and take a look at EVERY 1B in the league after 10 years. They all are rated like Derrek Lee defensively.

I can go on and on but I think most of you know what problems are coming up. The game took a huge step back in those areas from what 6.51 had. I'll admit 6.51 wasn't perfect, but the AI was reasonable enough to play and enjoy. I haven't even gotten that into the game which is scary. I can't imagine what else is lurking.

My thoughts are that the developers simply took a wrong move. They got in bed with a few of the board regulars who wanted these crazy setups and leagues and didn't listen to the majority of us who just want better AI and gameplay. I simply don't comprehend how setting up a league in Antartica took precedent over ensuring that a signed free agent isn't released the next day. I feel like I'm playing a game of Risk, not baseball.

I feel bad for completely trashing the game, but some of these things need to be said. If there is any lesson to be gained from this, focus your time on the AI. Hire a baseball guru for christ sake who can tell you what the logic should be. Sitting there adding the proper population of all the cities in Uganda just doesn't seem like the things that this game should be working on. Next year will be the first year in forever that I don't drop my money down on OOTP. I learned my lesson.

I just have to echo those who said nice first post. Welcome to the board.

[Buccaneer]

The fact that a patch was announced for the week after release is a sign that they expected an influx of complaints.

[off tangent]
No, that is very typical in software development including games of course. When I finalize a release of a software application at work, I already have at least a half dozen CR (Change Requests) ready to go for next update/patch. I do, however, make sure that the core functionalities all work or at least describe a workaround (or "known issues") in my documentation. I also know that Microsoft has SP2 (as well as SP1) for Vista mapped out when the product is still 8 months from being released!

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Mizzo, I agree with what you are saying and I would answer the question, "why have them in there" as "they shouldn't if they don't work and if they do work, does it anything to the game?". In all text sims there are stuff not added (like expansion and custom scheduling in FOF) for various reasons. You can't model everything and what you do model, make it works.

Great point and a plus to the way Jim does things the way he does them.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I had thought about that as well but think a September release is a kiss of death for a baseball game. I think if that's the case, you're better off just waiting till February and Spring Training.

I don't think it's as bad as a console sports game release in September would be, especially since I would't even think of ootp if I didn't have access to the internet, but I'm sure for some.. it would be an issue.

I still believe an SI skin (UI), the added almanac, FIXED (squashed) issues from 6.51a, and maybe some small additions would really have went over well for the 2006 version. Get feedback, see if there are any issues, make some UI fixes to make things easier, etc.. then next year start adding world baseball to the mix. If your real world MLB setup works, it should be easier to program additional league structures.

I do NOT want to seem I know how to program anything besides C64 basic, I just think that plan makes sense.

[RainMaker]

Mizzo, I agree with what you are saying and I would answer the question, "why have them in there" as "they shouldn't if they don't work and if they do work, does it anything to the game?". In all text sims there are stuff not added (like expansion and custom scheduling in FOF) for various reasons. You can't model everything and what you do model, make it works.

Well said. I'm perfectly happy with a new version every year with a few new added features that are done right and some tweaks to the AI and gameplay. The game added a ton of stuff that all came off half-cocked to me.

We can go back to waivers and other additions that just never worked in previous versions. Spring Training in this version isn't setup right at all and you can't bring your roster out and play the youngins. They allow us to set up elaborate leagues but make the playoff system really bland.

As you also said, the focus was on international buyers. I think the adding of leagues, etc could have been implemented over the course of a couple years. It's just odd to me that they'd alienate their core base in the US to bring some new users overseas.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Some quick questions on trading:

I'm up to early May in the quickstart MLB league, and so far there hasn't been a trade. Normal?

How do you get responses to a trade offer? I've made three, and each time got the "we'll let you know in a few days" message. I've never heard back from anyone, weeks later. Normal?

Is there a way to just play as a GM -- to let the AI handle all your lineup and in-game managing? Is that what the bench coach is for?

Trading:
That's not terribly normal. I'd check to make sure your quickstart league didn't have trading turned off -- it's under Game Setup, League Setup Tab, Rules Tab. Make sure Enable Trading is toggled on. You might also check to make sure that your Team Control Settings are correct. Go to Manager->Home Page and make sure Initiate and react to trades is toggled to you.

Coincidentally, this is also where you can assign lineups and such to your manager and minor league managers. I have lineups and minor league team management assigned to minors, everything else assigned to me.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Great point and a plus to the way Jim does things the way he does them.

Then there shouldn't be any qualms about playing a career without the waivers/40man settings, or having any of the international leagues on. Seems like some folks have the unrealistic expectations of playing a massive baseball universe with enough options/features to keep one busy for decades. That was the point of an earlier post I made about these games trending toward features/options overload, which turns me off from such games. (I do, however, believe that playing historical leagues is a core feature because of the importance baseball's history.) The point is that turning off waivers (and interactions with non-MLB leagues) would be like them not being in there the first place. No sense complaining about how that (doesn't) work when they're not important. There are more important things that are part of the core features.

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

...just want better AI and gameplay. I simply don't comprehend how setting up a league in Antartica took precedent over ensuring that a signed free agent isn't released the next day....

Quite obviously took the part that hit home with me as a CM/FM player: this seems to be SI's policy - bring in as many markets as possible whilem ignoring obvious problems with gameplay...

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Then there shouldn't be any qualms about playing a career without the waivers/40man settings, or having any of the international leagues on. Seems like some folks have the unrealistic expectations of playing a massive baseball universe with enough options/features to keep one busy for decades. That was the point of an earlier post I made about these games trending toward features/options overload, which turns me off from such games. (I do, however, believe that playing historical leagues is a core feature because of the importance baseball's history.) The point is that turning off waivers (and interactions with non-MLB leagues) would be like them not being in there the first place. No sense complaining about how that (doesn't) work when they're not important. There are more important things that are part of the core features.

Well for me, they are there and I like using them to put some players from my team on waivers, scout for an old vet who might help me due to an injured regular, etc... if they were not there (Puresim), I wouldn't think about it... but it's there and I want to use it - albeit a house rule or two - which I hate.

I'm one of those who think features are in a game for some "overall" reason, that if I don't use them, something else breaks. Call me weird.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

Trading:
That's not terribly normal. I'd check to make sure your quickstart league didn't have trading turned off -- it's under Game Setup, League Setup Tab, Rules Tab. Make sure Enable Trading is toggled on. You might also check to make sure that your Team Control Settings are correct. Go to Manager->Home Page and make sure Initiate and react to trades is toggled to you.

Hm... trading is enabled, and it's toggled to me.

What should happen when I get a reply to a trade offer? I'm assuming e-mail, or is it somewhere else?

[SirFozzie]

One thing I would like, is to save the settings for various universes, so I don't have to reenter them.

For example. I just spent twenty minutes turning off waivers (for now, it's required), adding correct nicknames for the various major league teams in Asia and North America and editing the finances so winter league teams don't have a huge amount of money to spend. I'd rather prefer not to do it again n the future, even if I want to regenerate rosters

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Hm... trading is enabled, and it's toggled to me.

What should happen when I get a reply to a trade offer? I'm assuming e-mail, or is it somewhere else?

Yes, you should get an e-mail from the other team's GM -- I almost always get the e-mail within 2-3 days. That's actually one of the pluses I like about this system -- you can't turn your entire roster over in a day be making a flurry of trades. Negotiations are much more dragged out, which I think is a plus.

Unless you don't get the responses. The only other thing I would check is to make sure your e-mail filter is set to all messages or transaction messages. Of course, it's entirely possible trading isn't properly enabled in the demo.

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

One thing I would like, is to save the settings for various universes, so I don't have to reenter them.

For example. I just spent twenty minutes turning off waivers (for now, it's required), adding correct nicknames for the various major league teams in Asia and North America and editing the finances so winter league teams don't have a huge amount of money to spend. I'd rather prefer not to do it again n the future, even if I want to regenerate rosters

You can save your configfuration as a "quickstart" and that will enable you to begin from the point you have reached with any new league.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well new here and came from a link on the OOTP boards. I do have to admit that many of your assesments are dead on and I was hoping I wasn't the only one going crazy thinking that this game.....well....kind of sucks. Of course any mention of that on the OOTP boards means being chased away by a couple individuals who are either a) on the payroll b) haven't played the game yet or c) playing a completely different version than the rest of us.

It's a nice forum and all, but those that do chase away individuals with legitimate complaints somewhat make it difficult for the game to improve in anyway. I'd argue that it could be a reason why this version is so bad. I'm also failing to see the correlation between sitting in your parent's basement and thinking the games roster management AI is flawed. I guess it's the next logical step after trying to encite some obscure 1940's reference where a team may have signed a star and released him weeks later and how Marcus was a genius for putting it into the game.

Either way you look at it, this game is worse than 6.51 on a number of levels. The in-game AI is flawed and they took out a lot of the functionality and control. Little things like warming up a reliever, telling a runner to stay/hold, or being able to set some strategy without going through the entire 7 pitch at-bat were important. I can deal with that, but the in-game management is poor as well. I'm seeing stars being pinch hit for by bench guys late for no reason. I would get into the bullpen management, but I honestly could write about that for days. All I know is that my last game so the starter go 4, 4 relievers go a 1/3 (including the closer) and the 5th have to finish out the entire game. I guess if they need another pitcher, they can take a look in LF to find one playing there.

As many have alluded to, the transactions are ridiculous. Besides the ridiculous signing/releasing of new stars, I'm seeing stars being traded for next to nothing. There is no rhyme or reason to trading either. Contenders don't try to pick up help and teams out of the race don't unload vets for prospects. Contracts also seem to have absolutely no relevance either as guys in their final year don't get traded and are just as hard to trade to contenders for "contract reasons". I haven't even mentioned how ridiculous the trading interface is without them giving you an idea of what a player is worth. Oh, and take a look at EVERY 1B in the league after 10 years. They all are rated like Derrek Lee defensively.

I can go on and on but I think most of you know what problems are coming up. The game took a huge step back in those areas from what 6.51 had. I'll admit 6.51 wasn't perfect, but the AI was reasonable enough to play and enjoy. I haven't even gotten that into the game which is scary. I can't imagine what else is lurking.

My thoughts are that the developers simply took a wrong move. They got in bed with a few of the board regulars who wanted these crazy setups and leagues and didn't listen to the majority of us who just want better AI and gameplay. I simply don't comprehend how setting up a league in Antartica took precedent over ensuring that a signed free agent isn't released the next day. I feel like I'm playing a game of Risk, not baseball.

I feel bad for completely trashing the game, but some of these things need to be said. If there is any lesson to be gained from this, focus your time on the AI. Hire a baseball guru for christ sake who can tell you what the logic should be. Sitting there adding the proper population of all the cities in Uganda just doesn't seem like the things that this game should be working on. Next year will be the first year in forever that I don't drop my money down on OOTP. I learned my lesson.

I also ditto others in saying Welcome to "The Board" And yeah, great early post.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Well said. I'm perfectly happy with a new version every year with a few new added features that are done right and some tweaks to the AI and gameplay. The game added a ton of stuff that all came off half-cocked to me.

We can go back to waivers and other additions that just never worked in previous versions. Spring Training in this version isn't setup right at all and you can't bring your roster out and play the youngins. They allow us to set up elaborate leagues but make the playoff system really bland.

As you also said, the focus was on international buyers. I think the adding of leagues, etc could have been implemented over the course of a couple years. It's just odd to me that they'd alienate their core base in the US to bring some new users overseas.

I agree, when I first saw the plan for OOtpb 06 with all these wacked out league options leagues in Antarartica where baseball is non-existant in the real world I thought this is a bad idea. Now don't get me wrong. I am not an xenophobe. In fact having lived overseas in Asia among the locals and marrying a local woman I am quite cultural tolerant. But, why did SI think they could do what Major Leagues and Bud Selig have been unsuccessful in doing up to till now .And that is trying to bring baseball to non-baseball playing areas of the world . Anyways I hope SI sales in Europe and Africa etc do well because they aren't going to foo, l many North Americans into buying this in present form.

[James.Gattis]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

Did anyone from SI even ever play OOTP 6.5 or even so much as read the boards? The waiver/roster AI was the number 1 glaring issue. It should have been fixed before ANYTHING else was added. I honestly can not believe the pass that this game is getting. I keep expecting as people get tired of these glaring problems the opinions will become lower, but I guess we aren't far enough from release yet. The only conclusion I can reach is that most who will look at this game with a critical eye were much smarter then me and waited to purchase.

I bet they will say they played Ootp 6 but it's clear that even if they did they didn't get it and they certainly don't get baseball. They tried to put an SI face on Ootp which isn't the worst idea in the world. But then Markus threw away every single line of code from Ootp 6.5?!?!? I dunno if this was SI's idea or what but its lunacy. Now we back worse than OOtp 1 in terms of AI. And I still crash in about 20% of games I try to play out even with Version 1.1.

GOod news is that SI got me to go try Baseball Mogul which I gave up after Mogul 2004 and it is SO much better now. Apparently Clay has hired a 2nd programmer and stopped working on Football and it shows. It still needs some customization help like it wouldn't let me make a 9-team league (3 divisions with 3 teams each) but its definitely a ton of fun to play. They added one-pitch mode this year which is ironic that Ootp basically got rid of it. But they've also got an awesome IMO pitch-by-pitch system that reminds me of High Heat without the stuff I hated about 'action' baseball games (mostly, the fielding).

[James.Gattis]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I still believe an SI skin (UI), the added almanac, FIXED (squashed) issues from 6.51a, and maybe some small additions would really have went over well for the 2006 version.

More like the 2005 version. With the programmers at SI they could have had that all done last year and then added new features like pitch-by-pitch this year. Waiting two years for a giant step back is almost insulting especially when we were reading the blogs about how great the game was going to be and about how it would only be released when it was ready. Total lies.

Since they arent in stores they are basically selling on 31 May to hardcore fans so they coudl have made us happier by letting us know in the blogs that certain things were behind schedule. Then either delay the release until September or at least lower our expectations for even a stable product with decent AI. If theres a wikipedia entry about how not to release a computer game this should be it.

What I dont get is with "over 100" beta testers how come no one even hinted at the disaster that was coming. Mogul had an open beta for more than a month before the game was released and make the beta forum readable by all so you could go in every day and check the bug reports. It didn't fix ALL the bugs but you gave me a clear idea of what was coming and an open window into the bug fixing process. Its as if the Ootp/SI nda said you werent allowed to say ANYTHING bad about the game after you got let into the beta.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by James.Gattis

I bet they will say they played Ootp 6 but it's clear that even if they did they didn't get it and they certainly don't get baseball. They tried to put an SI face on Ootp which isn't the worst idea in the world. But then Markus threw away every single line of code from Ootp 6.5?!?!? I dunno if this was SI's idea or what but its lunacy. Now we back worse than OOtp 1 in terms of AI. And I still crash in about 20% of games I try to play out even with Version 1.1.

GOod news is that SI got me to go try Baseball Mogul which I gave up after Mogul 2004 and it is SO much better now. Apparently Clay has hired a 2nd programmer and stopped working on Football and it shows. It still needs some customization help like it wouldn't let me make a 9-team league (3 divisions with 3 teams each) but its definitely a ton of fun to play. They added one-pitch mode this year which is ironic that Ootp basically got rid of it. But they've also got an awesome IMO pitch-by-pitch system that reminds me of High Heat without the stuff I hated about 'action' baseball games (mostly, the fielding).

I like the newest version of BM 07 and he is still working on improving it.LOL. I have to extend a hearty SORRY to Clay for being a little harsh on his game early in the year when it was still in it smoothing out stage. BM 07's problems/bugs seem miniscule in comparison to the complete mess OOTPB 06 is right now. I am probably going to pick this up and save my money on buying OOTPB 06 this year. I was also, thinking if I didn't buy OOTP 06, I would get the excellent FM game for the World Cup fever bug but to be honest the OOTP 06 thing has left a bad taste in my mouth.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Galaril

I like the newest version of BM 07 and he is still working on improving it.LOL. I have to extend a hearty SORRY to Clay for being a little harsh on his game early in the year when it was still in it smoothing out stage. BM 07's problems/bugs seem miniscule in comparison to the complete mess OOTPB 06 is right now. I am probably going to pick this up and save my hold back on buying OOTPB 06 this year. I was also, thinking if I didn't buy OOTPB06 I would get the excellent FM game for the World Cup fever bug but to be honest the OOtpb 06 thing has left a bad taste in my mouth.

May be tough to do, but I wouldn't let it bother you. FM is much more along in the process than OOTP. It's a terrific game and one I feel all text sim owners should play. (if for no other reason than to see how it should be done and what the possiblities are)

[Grunthos]

It would appear that the new OOTP is following the same development curve as the CM4 engine, which was also a buggy mess and a step backwards in its first incarnation. I have faith that SI wants to create a program with excellent AI, player movement/salaries, and advanced GM functions by the end of the development cycle, but their first priority is and always has been the game simulation engine, the interface, and covering as many leagues as possible. If these priorities don't match with yours (as they do not match with mine), then you're going to be disappointed. It's not a particularly surprising development

After owning every version of CM3, my purchases of FM have been intermittent, and I'm wary of FM07... I'd love for SI to attend to the aspects of the game that are important to me, but they're obviously going to take their time getting there. I owned OOTP 5 and 6, but will not be purchasing the new game until they finish taking their time getting there, which may not be until 2010. That's not a slap at SI... they can't do everything at once, and my priorities are probably not representative of the majority of their customers. All I can do is spend my entertainment dollar wisely, and in this case, that means withholding it at least until next year.

[James.Gattis]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

However, I think that SI is a big-time positive influence on Markus and the OOTP group.

Ootp6 was great. Ootp 2006 sucks, even after 2 years of development with a larger team. And its not just bad design its reams of serious bugs and flaws that imply Markus wasnt even learning any decent coding practices from such an experienced group.

I dont see how you coudl call that a positive influence, unless you mean a positive influence on MARKUS but not on OOTP. They might be making him richer by hyper-marketing his game on baseball-reference but they certainly didn't improve the game he made. I understand the CM4 re-write comparison, but these guys had a great game engine, two years and tons of resources and they f-ed it up hard core.

OK. Deep breath. SOrry I'm just still disappointed after 10 days of trying to play this game. Maybe you can clear up what you mean by positive influence as its clear Im too dumb to understand what you're saying, unless you really did mean the cash thing but I was just joking there.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by James.Gattis

Ootp6 was great. Ootp 2006 sucks, even after 2 years of development with a larger team. And its not just bad design its reams of serious bugs and flaws that imply Markus wasnt even learning any decent coding practices from such an experienced group.

I dont see how you coudl call that a positive influence, unless you mean a positive influence on MARKUS but not on OOTP. They might be making him richer by hyper-marketing his game on baseball-reference but they certainly didn't improve the game he made. I understand the CM4 re-write comparison, but these guys had a great game engine, two years and tons of resources and they f-ed it up hard core.

OK. Deep breath. SOrry I'm just still disappointed after 10 days of trying to play this game. Maybe you can clear up what you mean by positive influence as its clear Im too dumb to understand what you're saying, unless you really did mean the cash thing but I was just joking there.

First, I don't think any version of OOTP has ever been great out of the box. If you go back and look at the response when OOTP6 came out, we heard the same hue and cry about waivers, bad AI management and everything else. Personally, I see no difference in the state of OOTP 2k6 and previous versions of OOTP at this stage of release and development.

Why I'm optimistic is that SI has a much better track record than Markus has with tightening the nuts and bolts of their games. OOTP 2ks is significantly more ambitious than any previous incarnation of OOTP. No offense, but if this was a typical OOTP Developments effort I would have little faith in the long-term success of the project. But with the reputation of SI, I'm optimistic.

Witness some of the long-term bugs in OOTP that we've all bitched and moaned about but the hardcore fan base of OOTP has endured. Markus has never bothered to address those. Marc Duffy's response has been that bugs that have been around that long are unacceptable. That's a breath of fresh air.

I think it's way too early to judge OOTP 2006. I think my reputation of being a critical analyst of text sims is somewhat well known. I'm not afraid to call a spade a spade. I think a lot of the criticism of this game is a stacking of little frustrations into a giant ball of frustration.

If the next patch is not swift and does not address the major AI bugs and there is no explanation of why not, I think criticism will be justly earned. I think criticism is earned now, to a certain extent -- if you spend good money on a product that you don't enjoy, you have a right to complain.

And when it comes to making money, OOTP doesn't need SI for lessons in that -- the fact that Markus had the balls to charge people $10 for a patch that offered some cosmetic upgrades and bug fixes without even offering the long-promised/never-delivered head-to-head play galled me to the point that I considered never buying another one of their products.

[James.Gattis]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

But with the reputation of SI, I'm optimistic.

A great rep for football (aka soccer) games but I'm betting only one person inthe whole building knows much about baseball and he only started being a fan in the 90s.

Marc Duffy's response has been that bugs that have been around that long are unacceptable.

He may say that but he was reading the OOtp boards just like the rest of us for the last 2 years so he was aware of all these bugs and he never tested the game to see if those bugs were in the game. Marc says on the boards that he's a 'Marketing Guy' so his job is to make us think they are fixing the bugs. His job isn't actually to fix the bugs. I don't know who the internal software development manager is but they need someone to get a handle on teh whole team and all the bugs and I don't think that's Marc's job title. If he ends up filling that role from here on out, great. But that isn't what he's been doing for the last 2 years.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by James.Gattis

If theres a wikipedia entry about how not to release a computer game this should be it.[/i]

If there's a "how-not-to", it's probably under "Maximum Football"

What I dont get is with "over 100" beta testers how come no one even hinted at the disaster that was coming.

At the risk of repeating something that was mentioned several pages back in the thread, we don't really know whether there were "hints of disaster" or not.
Speaking from past personal experience, there could have been gigantic bonfires, fireworks displays, and three supersonic jet skywriters all delivering the "disaster eminent" warning and it might not have mattered one whit. All the beta testing in the world does no good if those with the final say aren't willing to listen to anything other than what strokes their ego.

Mind you, I certainly can't say for sure that any of the "over 100" you mentioned said a single word about any of the obvious issues, but I can't in good faith assume that they didn't either.

[DeftRevisited]

I usually have a lot of patience with new games. Hell I am still waiting on the next patch of MaxFB.
But I have to agree that there was too much emphasis on sizzle than steak in this new OOTP. I have always loved OOTP for its great customization but the need for addressing handling of relievers and starters as well as AI substitutions have been in need of repair for a long time. I am disappointed that they didn't make it into the latest revision. Markus has always been a good patcher and I imagine he will fix the bugs but the managers side of the game needs a lot of work.

[yabanci]

I don't want to step out of line here, but is it too early to roll this out?



probably premature, but it seems headed in that direction.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by yabanci

I don't want to step out of line here, but is it too early to roll this out?



probably premature, but it seems headed in that direction.

Yeah, that time maybe soon if they can't get the fixes they need out ASAP and working. I think this is extremely unlikely since they couldn't address these issues in two years of a systems development life cycle (must have been RAD or rapid application development). Why we should expect things to be dramatically improved after one more patch in 3 or 4 weeks time I don't know. And this game has only been out for tens wait a few weeks of play when really bizarre AI stuff starts being reported. I am sorry to be trashing these guys work/software but hey they are really asking to get ripped when try to sell stuff like this to the public.

[Izulde]

I'm still waiting on how the patches roll for 06 before getting it. That and I'm not really going to have much free time until mid-July.

[jbmagic]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Since when do you have these options on in order to make refuse to go to minors? 40man rosters and waivers do not add much to the strategy because even they have worked, you would still do better managing than the AI. Isn't the point in all of these solo games to do things to make the AI more competitive (hence, house rules)? In playing OOTP5, I have no problem taking out waivers (don't remember if 40man is there) and turning on arbitration and refuse to go to minors. Less micromanagement for me and less the AI can screw up further.

I meant minor league options enabled. I wasn't talking about not having all the options on.

In ootp 6.51a i have waivers off, 40 man roster off , minor league free agent off and rule v off. So the AI can handle it well like you said.

I have minor league options enabled. That let players refuse to goto the minors if there out of options years.

If you disabled minor league options, then players wont refuse to goto the minors.

[Marc Duffy]

Troy, I've just responded to your PM on the OOTP boards.

I'll throw it open here, if you are interested in helping work on your main AI issues please shoot me a PM.

Originally Posted by TroyF

Marc,

I'll go out on a limb here and say that ANY of us from FOFC who have the game would be willing to do whatever we can to make it better. Even if it involves you just posting reports and letting people pour through them to look for AI glitches, I believe this community wil help in any possible way they can.

I know Sack Attack loves managing games one at a time and has ran through a lot of issues doing things that way. I like the sim a month at a time myself. You can read through this thread and find a nice mixture of people who play the game in different ways.

Shoot any of us a PM and we'll help.

If you already have the help you need, I wish you guys luck and I hope you get it right. I'm looking forward to the next patch and hoping you guys nail it.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by kcchief19

If the next patch is not swift and does not address the major AI bugs and there is no explanation of why not, I think criticism will be justly earned. I think criticism is earned now, to a certain extent -- if you spend good money on a product that you don't enjoy, you have a right to complain.

The next patch wont be swift, I've not got a timeline on it but I wouldnt expect to see it till July. If we're going to address some of these issues then I'm going to need time.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by James.Gattis

A

He may say that but he was reading the OOtp boards just like the rest of us for the last 2 years so he was aware of all these bugs and he never tested the game to see if those bugs were in the game. Marc says on the boards that he's a 'Marketing Guy' so his job is to make us think they are fixing the bugs. His job isn't actually to fix the bugs. I don't know who the internal software development manager is but they need someone to get a handle on teh whole team and all the bugs and I don't think that's Marc's job title. If he ends up filling that role from here on out, great. But that isn't what he's been doing for the last 2 years.

We've never hidden from the fact that Markus runs the show for OOTP. The game is his vision and he can utilise our code libraries and ask for advice at any time. My job isn't to make you think the bugs are being fixed, and my job actually isnt all about marketing (someone over there gave me that title).

For me, when you work on project if it's to work and be what you want it to be, you actually have to give a shit about the product and over the past 2 years I've developed a love for OOTP Baseball and that, above all other reasons, is why I poke my nose into the coding and development processes and I'm determined to put together a dream team to tell us exactly how it is.

[dervack]

Marc,

I think you've done a very good job of listening to the customers, potential customers and anyone else who might have a gripe with the way things have been done. Whenever we've PM'd, I've always been happy with what you've said and I have faith that eventually things in OOTP will work out. That being said, I don't think it will be this version. I was a previous owner, from 3 to 6, and then lost the faith when 6 was released. I thought that the potential that 6 would have would make me buy any product that Markus could ever produce because of it. Then the merger happened, and I posted my displeasure and fear of what might happened to the game. And then 6 was released, (at least I think it was in that order) and H2H wasn't in the game, but promised to be in the first update. But it wasn't. Nor was it in the "expansion" pack that was released a year later. And that was all she wrote. I decided that I wouldn't purchase another OOTP game without playing the demo first. And when you announced a demo for 2006 would include 6 months of game time, while happy that it would take us up to the offseason, I was a little disappointed that we couldn't try out the offseason. And then, the demo turns out to only last 14 days. So, instead of being able to play for 6 months in however long we wanted, now we must setup the league we want, and play it, all within 14 days. Sorry to say, but it looks like Puresim is going to get my money this year. Good Luck in getting it right this year, and here's hoping that 2007 produces a stellar product.

PS... DAED, please leave your trollish behavior on the OOTP boards. I've left there because of your childish behavior and I don't want to see it here.

[Fouts]

Not everyone is disappointed in OOTP 2006. I'm in season 2 with my Mexican League team, and enjoying myself. Maybe it is because of the smaller league size that I'm not seeing some of these problems.

I play out all my games and haven't seen any problems with the AI substitutions. I don't like when the computer steals with an 8 run lead or when it says back-to-back home runs, when it isn't. Outside of that I'm pretty happy. Forgive me for interupting the thrashing of the game.

[dervack]

Originally Posted by Fouts

Forgive me for interupting the thrashing of the game.

I know you're kidding, but FWIW, I don't think voicing your displeasure with a game is exactly thrashing a game.

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

The next patch wont be swift, I've not got a timeline on it but I wouldnt expect to see it till July. If we're going to address some of these issues then I'm going to need time.

I agree. I think the next patch needs to be released when it's ready after a ton of testing. This isn't only for this version. Whatever happens in this patch will carry over to next years game as well. If some of the long standing problems with OOTP can be addressed, this is a perfect time to do it.

I'd rather give SI and Markus heat for a patch that took two months to get out than to see another OOTP game waste its vast potential.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I agree. I think the next patch needs to be released when it's ready after a ton of testing. This isn't only for this version. Whatever happens in this patch will carry over to next years game as well. If some of the long standing problems with OOTP can be addressed, this is a perfect time to do it.

I'd rather give SI and Markus heat for a patch that took two months to get out than to see another OOTP game waste its vast potential.

I agree. this release should be viewed as a open public beta. Now take the game back into the shop or whatever and get it right.Please. And I would also, like to say that Marc, I also appreciate your professionalism in how you have interacted with people he. Please don't take it personal.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by James.Gattis

More like the 2005 version. With the programmers at SI they could have had that all done last year and then added new features like pitch-by-pitch this year. Waiting two years for a giant step back is almost insulting especially when we were reading the blogs about how great the game was going to be and about how it would only be released when it was ready. Total lies.

Honestly a good part of the reason I'm so pissed off about this game is the full-court marketing press that SI put on. The testers shouldn't have been doing blogs, they should have been telling the programming team that the game was fucked up.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by James.Gattis

A great rep for football (aka soccer) games but I'm betting only one person inthe whole building knows much about baseball and he only started being a fan in the 90s.

That's not a criticism applicable to SI exclusively -- that applies to Markus as well. I honestly believe that some of the bugs and annoying things that exist in OOTP still are due to Markus not having the same experience and background as Americans. The reverse is true with soccer. No matter how much an America invests themselves in soccer, few if any will be able to match the depth an subtleties of the game and give the proper importance to the little details. That said, to a large degree, it takes no understanding of baseball to squash a bug in the coding of the game. It takes receiving input from gamers and acting on that input. That's where I think SI and OOTP diverge. SI has a history and rep for listening to its consumers and givng them what they want. Markus has a rep for intentionally or unintentionally turning a blind eye to certain bugs and ignoring them, which is the only explanation for some of the bugs that have made it through three or four versions of the game.

[kcchief19]

Originally Posted by TroyF

I'd rather give SI and Markus heat for a patch that took two months to get out than to see another OOTP game waste its vast potential.

If those are the only choices, then I reluctantly agree. But I think not having a patch out VERY QUICKLY in this case sends a bad message. Right now, my recommendation of this game would be only by it if you're a casual gamer. If you're a hardcore gamer who wants things to work as designed, you need to wait for another patch. This is a time when I think you need to whatever yo ucan to get a comprehensive out patch as fast as you can. I'm not saying rush the patch -- I'm saying treating this patch as the single-most important thing your company can ever do for its customers.

Taking time with a patch right now sends the message that the powers that be do not sense that a large number of customers are not happy with the game and that perhaps these concerns are not taken that seriously. Conversely, this compares with the announcement of a patch coming out before the game was released. To me, this information leads me to believe that the development team knew that the release version was not ready (insert Jim's reasons for releasing a game when it's done, not for hitting a release date), but the development team had a list of bugs they knew they could eliminate if they had another week. After that all the other stuff is small stuff and we can take our time on that.

I may be overreacting, but I've never seen the OOTP fanbase this is agitated. I don't think OOTP is anywhere close to the abortion that was Maximum Football, but the fact that people. I think this is a time for burning the midnight oil, all hands on deck and fixing everything as fast as you can. Maybe that's what's happening, but it certainly isn't my impression.

I think this is a classic case of what I call "Benji the Hunted Syndrome." Way back when, Benji the Hunted came out and Roger Ebert gave it a thumbs up while giving Full Metal Jacket a thumbs down. Gene Siskel was incensed, and the two got into an argument that continued the rest of Siskel's life. Ebert's argument was that Benji had a modest goal and nailed it, while Full Metal Jacket had an ambitious goal and missed. Even though Full Metal Jacket was a superior film, ultimate Benji was more satisfying because it exceeded expectations. Siskel argued that you can't say a bad movie is better than good movie simply because the expectations were different.

OOTP is no Maximum Football. That's grossly unfair to OOTP. I understand the nature of the jokes, but the comparison is not apt. OOTP 2k6 was an ambitious project and it's not there yet, but it's not worth mentioning in the same thread as MF.

[TroyF]

kc,

I understand what you are saying, but at the end of the day the worst thing they can do is to issue a quick patch without the issues fixed. I think it'll be worth short term frustration for long term happiness.

I agree, this is one of the most important patches for an SI game that I can remember. If they nail the patch, even if it's delayed, they'll stifle the screams at that point.

I think the absolute worst thing that can happen will be for them to release a patch that doesn't fix a lot of the issues. I don't think they can all be fixed, but I think a lot of them can be.

Earlier it was said that moving to Sega was the worst thing for OOTP. I continue to believe it's the best thing. SI has a long history of releasing quality products and listening to their customers. This is the first time I can remember playing OOTP that I honestly have the feeling they want to both understand and deal with the issues.

I'm not excusing the condition of the release or saying I'm happy with it. I think we can all agree on what happened there. now we move forward and see what happens.

[jbmagic]

One of the other big problem with the AI is

Left over from past versions, is that AI teams can sign players for a ton of money and then release them without ever paying them.

[Dekanth]

I think a fast patch that also resoves the big issues is the only thing that saves this game. BBCF was patched up very nicely, but by the time the patch actually came around, much of the enthusiasm for the game was lost.

[Axxon]

I have noticed one thing touched on but not really very much that I'd like to add some input to. It's the "too many quality FA's in the beginning and no competition to sign them" issue. I know it is avoidable but for fun I started a 2 league 8 teams per league major leagues and did not go through an initial draft.

After the draft I signed the following FA's and after I'll show who I kept. I did note one trade. It was offered and basically seemed reasonable though I got the SS noted ( from their minors ) for a ML shortstop who is younger and potentially 50/80 and we swapped ML players. I gave up a potential Minor League MR ( not for me considering what I bought but good for a Minor League C who isn't great but C is my teams worst position. It's only one trade out of a handful of offers and the rest weren't worth it although one other one was intriguing.

It was for Acton. It included a middle of the road RF at half the salary and 10 years younger plus a prospect for Acton and 3m. If not for the money and the fact that the team had no need ( which in a fixed game wouldn't be the case ) it wasn't ludicrous.

Anyway, the team, newcomers first:

SP

Chance Brewer 23Y L 62/80 62./80 4yr 13,400,000
Doug Massie 22y R 80/80 80/80 5yr 22,150,000
Norm Culbeerson 23y R 80/80 80/80 4yr 25,400,700
River Wells 22y R 68/80 68/80 5 yr 16,750,0004

MR

Arlo "Crow" Rodriguez 22y R 78/80 78/80 4 yr 5,400,000
Cesario "Whistler" Florenzan 24y R 80/80 80/80 5yr 21,750,000
Raul "Divine" Palencia 24y L 73/80 73/80 4 yr 10,400,000

3B Henry Knudsen 22y R/R 74/80 74/80 5yr 24,950,000
SS Tony Sema 33y L/R 50/80 ( rel 64 ) 50/80 1yr 540,000 trade
LF Rene Bonacelli 24yr R/L 64/80 66/80 5yr 33,750,000
CF Cisco Disla 23yr R/R 58/80 64/80 4yr 4,250,000
RF Roque Mendos 21yr L/L 63/80 64/80 5yr 31,750,000
RF Urs Poldermans 21yr L/L 59/80 61/80 5yr 23,350,000

The remaining from start players

SP Rich Bailey 27y R/R 57/80 60/80
RP Eduardo Villanuevo 25y S/R 54/80 54/80
RP Jose Monroig 36y S/R 63/80 66/80
CL Charlie Coley 29y R/R 70/80 70/80

C Maureo Folh 34y L/R 42/80 42/80
C Scott Kinard 31y R/R 45/80 55/80
1B Norm Anderson 27y L/L 40/80 52/80
2B Shoin Kumatani 23y S/R 56/80 62/80
2B Basilio Cermeno 33y L/R 59/80 60/80
SS Marv Ammons 20y R/R 55/80 60/80
SS Grayson O'Hagerty R/R 74/80 80/80
LF Al "Shortcut"Acton 36y L/R 80/80 80/80

Seems that this is a bit excessive. I will note that I can sign

1B Peng Nao 26y R/R 74/80 80/80 requesting 3yr 40,230,000 but I don't like him.

Also, keep in mind I didn't work overly hard to pick these guys so conceivably I could get even better but I really didn't need or want to.

The only thing left to do is see how these guys play. They're all young and I wonder just how close they perform to their ratings. My head scout who provided all these ratings is rated 20 in all cats. How I started with him I have no idea but he was the reason I pursued this experiment.

Anyway, I know it's work aroundable but I hope that this gets addressed one day.

I'm off to sim a season and see how it goes.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by dervack

I know you're kidding, but FWIW, I don't think voicing your displeasure with a game is exactly thrashing a game.

If you own the game then it isn't. If you are criticizing and voicing displeasure with no real first hand knowledge about what you're saying then how can it be anything else?

[TroyF]

Originally Posted by Axxon

If you own the game then it isn't. If you are criticizing and voicing displeasure with no real first hand knowledge about what you're saying then how can it be anything else?

Easily. If you have people who you believe to be accurate in their assessments, you can bash something without actually playing it. There were also public reports posted that anyone could read and look through.

When someone sees the issues in those reports and can see they aren't fixed yet by forum members they trust, they can chime in as they please.

[Axxon]

Originally Posted by TroyF

Easily. If you have people who you believe to be accurate in their assessments, you can bash something without actually playing it. There were also public reports posted that anyone could read and look through.

When someone sees the issues in those reports and can see they aren't fixed yet by forum members they trust, they can chime in as they please.

Once, ok, that makes sense. More than that and you're the noise drowning out the signal. People who have the game are doing their best to point out the issues. How does it help for everybody in the peanut gallery to chime in with every post that points something out just how screwed up that makes the game? Does it help identify issues?

I'd say no. It's just more shit for the developers to wade through ( since they can't get any useful input from it ) while they look for the actual issues being noticed by actual players.

That's all I mean. All of the new game threads have a huge noise to signal ratio and it really seems to me that a lot of these folks have more fun never buying a game and playing the "I love to bitch" game.

SHURG

[Fouts]

Interesting discussion on the ootp boards that linked back to this thread. I'd like to see the computer team transactions make more sense, and not just make changes for the sake of making changes.

It's also interesting that some "characters" on this board has cost jim some customers.