Soccer Thread 2014-15

[bulletsponge]

Brek just scored in the 6th. of course he did, he hasnt played a game in a year

[cartman]

That was a nice series of moves to get the ball to Altidore for the goal.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Brek Shea starting? Terrible.

[kingfc22]

Some horrid defensive play out there.

[ISiddiqui]

Losing leads in the 2nd half seems to be the calling card for this team since the World Cup (well, it happened in the WC too vs. Portugal). Klinsmann better get that fixed soon.

[SirFozzie]

Man Yoo tell their season ticket holders "Buy tickets to the Cambridge Replay or be banned from using your season ticket for the next game"

Man United slammed as season ticket holders must buy Cambridge tickets - ESPN FC

Mixed feelings. More money for Cambridge, but damn, that's harsh, an extra 50 or so pounds or be banned from attending a match you supposedly already paid for?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Man Yoo tell their season ticket holders "Buy tickets to the Cambridge Replay or be banned from using your season ticket for the next game"

Man United slammed as season ticket holders must buy Cambridge tickets - ESPN FC

Mixed feelings. More money for Cambridge, but damn, that's harsh, an extra 50 or so pounds or be banned from attending a match you supposedly already paid for?

I think the complaints are only coming because it's a replay. If the draw had originally been at Old Trafford for Man U there would have been no question about people having to buy the tickets. As I understand it, your season ticket includes an unknown number of FA Cup games, that's just part of the package you're signing up for.

[ISiddiqui]

So sometimes I think soccer is making serious inroads in the US only to be slapped down in my thinking. Last night on Jimmy Kimmel Live, the first guest was David Beckham. So I watched it (I usually watch Letterman as I think he's way funnier, but Beckham... so maybe soccer talk!). Beckham was really on because he has a new whiskey coming out so was hawking that, but before the selling what were they talking about? The exciting Premier League season? The rise of soccer interest in the US? The World Cup? No. The Super Bowl. I shit you not.

----

Anyway, in the USv.Chile, MLS had player rankings:

USMNT Player Ratings: Nick Rimando, Jozy Altidore the standouts after loss to Chile | MLSsoccer.com

Interestingly they also had a balls to rate Klinsman's performance where they gave a 3. Dude needs to get it together a bit.

[Marc Vaughan]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

So sometimes I think soccer is making serious inroads in the US only to be slapped down in my thinking. Last night on Jimmy Kimmel Live, the first guest was David Beckham. So I watched it (I usually watch Letterman as I think he's way funnier, but Beckham... so maybe soccer talk!). Beckham was really on because he has a new whiskey coming out so was hawking that, but before the selling what were they talking about? The exciting Premier League season? The rise of soccer interest in the US? The World Cup? No. The Super Bowl. I shit you not.

I think Soccer is definitely on the rise here - when I first moved here there was NO interest in soccer at all, first World Cup I watched here was pretty much in my house, this last one I watched in packed bars surrounded by screaming Americans ... some of whom might have even understood what was going on

[Grover]

I just wish MLS officials (looking at you, Garber) would stop the anti-Klinsmann rhetoric they tend to spout off here and there. He's going to do great things for the USMNT product if given a long enough timeline to implement the things he wants to do.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Marc Vaughan

I think Soccer is definitely on the rise here - when I first moved here there was NO interest in soccer at all, first World Cup I watched here was pretty much in my house, this last one I watched in packed bars surrounded by screaming Americans ... some of whom might have even understood what was going on

I'm not saying that it isn't on the rise. But I'm saying is that it isn't where I sometimes think it is.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

I just wish MLS officials (looking at you, Garber) would stop the anti-Klinsmann rhetoric they tend to spout off here and there. He's going to do great things for the USMNT product if given a long enough timeline to implement the things he wants to do.

I just wish USMNT officials (looking at you, Klinsmann) would stop the anti-MLS rhetoric they tend to spout off here and there. It's going to do great things for the US soccer if given a long enough timeline to implement the things they want to do.



It goes both ways. Personally I'm getting really sick of Klinsi and don't think he's all he's been cracked up to be. The Friendlies tend to show that (in addition to Opta data indicating that contrary to his stated wishes, the US played a very defensively minded sort of game at the World Cup, more at home in the mid 90s than anything that came about in the 2000s+).

[HomerSimpson98]

My wife and I have a son who is about to be 7, and I remarked to her the other day that I dont know if there is ever been a better time to be a soccer-loving kid in the USA than right now. The World Cup was huge and I think we'll start to see better resources tagged for soccer orgs to identify kids at the younger ages before football, basketball, etc take them over. Plus with Premier League games every weekened and BeIn Sports coverage too, the sport just doesnt disappear anymore.

As for as MLS action goes, I just dont know if it will become the professional beacon of light, what with all the top-notch pro leagues in Europe. But I do see us putting out more comparable players. They just may be heading overseas during the prime of their careers.

[ISiddiqui]

I hope that not - well, at least not all of our good players (the top players, ok). It'd be one way to deal with the perception by many that the World Cup is an Olympic like every 4 year party and then when its over, they can ignore soccer for 4 years again.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

I just wish USMNT officials (looking at you, Klinsmann) would stop the anti-MLS rhetoric they tend to spout off here and there. It's going to do great things for the US soccer if given a long enough timeline to implement the things they want to do.

The best players are always going to go to Europe. Don't we want our players playing at the highest possible level? Isn't that how US Soccer is going to improve and become the best it can on the international stage?

Right now all MLS has become is a breeding ground for players looking for one last big payday.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

The best players are always going to go to Europe. Don't we want our players playing at the highest possible level? Isn't that how US Soccer is going to improve and become the best it can on the international stage?

Right now all MLS has become is a breeding ground for players looking for one last big payday.

What does 'improving' US Soccer in the short run going to do if the sport is solely seen as a 4 year show? You don't build a real following for the sport unless you invest in the domestic league.

FWIW, our best players in the last World Cup were MLS products (aside from Jones, who was playing in Turkey at the time, which is a comparable league with the MLS).

Also the Giovinco signing by TFC seems to indicate that "one last big payday" is soon going to be over and Antonio Conte seemingly agrees.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

What does 'improving' US Soccer in the short run going to do if the sport is solely seen as a 4 year show? You don't build a real following for the sport unless you invest in the domestic league.

FWIW, our best players in the last World Cup were MLS products (aside from Jones, who was playing in Turkey at the time, which is a comparable league with the MLS).

Also the Giovinco signing by TFC seems to indicate that "one last big payday" is soon going to be over and Antonio Conte seemingly agrees.

Get rid of DP placements for players then. Let the owners buy who they want when they want.

Find a way to incorporate the lower leagues in the US. Keep the playoffs if you want, but make a relegation/promotion system as well.

Like I've said earlier, I don't like there being so few team owners. There's not enough autonomy that way. I get that it's what helped the league to where it is, but it leaves things way too open to favoritism toward certain teams.

Player movement out of the league having to be endorsed by MLS is also a bit strange. Why should they be able to keep a player in the league when he could be good enough to move to Europe?

Ideally, MLS needs to move to the European August-May schedule as well. It would make things much easier for players, rather than stopping the season midway for a World Cup, Euros or CONCACAF tournaments.

I have too many grievances with the way MLS is run right now to jump on board as a fan. Yes, there are great places in the league like Portland, Seattle, Kansas City, etc, but I'm not ready to support the league.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Grover

Get rid of DP placements for players then. Let the owners buy who they want when they want.

Find a way to incorporate the lower leagues in the US. Keep the playoffs if you want, but make a relegation/promotion system as well.

Like I've said earlier, I don't like there being so few team owners. There's not enough autonomy that way. I get that it's what helped the league to where it is, but it leaves things way too open to favoritism toward certain teams.

Welcome to the collapse of the US domestic league, a la the NASL.

The NASL collapsed due to some owners throwing caution to the wind and spending tons while others had little money and couldn't compete. When the poor teams fell and collapsed the big teams had no one to play and the league was lost.

In fact, it wasn't all that far from happening to the MLS even with a controlled environment - when Tampa and Miami contracted in 2001, there was a huge fear that it was the end. But the pulled out of it, but only due to the fact that Lamar Hunt, Phil Anschultz, and yes, even Bob Kraft were willing to take absolutely horrific losses to keep a domestic soccer league alive in the US. That's why progress along those lines in MLS has been so slow. Because the owners know how close they are to the precipice.

I support expanding DPs, but only slightly. I mean all that DPs are are players that make more than the salary cap. It's not as if many salary cap leagues have an open amount of players who can make more than the salary cap .

And I'm firmly against Promotion and Relegation. Neither the NASL or USL Pro teams have the infrastructure needed for a MLS squad. The only ones which might are Indy Eleven and Sacramento Republic - but only because those localities are trying to make a play for MLS entrance. Otherwise you are lucky to see an NASL team (2nd tier) with more then 10,000 capacity. It's not the way American sports work as well - media companies like ESPN would be aghast at losing teams in top cities, and the league needs media contracts to survive.

And your complaints are years old. Every MLS team today has a different owner. You don't have one owner with multiple teams these days.

Player movement out of the league having to be endorsed by MLS is also a bit strange. Why should they be able to keep a player in the league when he could be good enough to move to Europe?

Technically MLS owns all the contracts. It's part of the single entity structure in order to promote gradual, sustainable growth. It'll change, I'm sure, one day.

Ideally, MLS needs to move to the European August-May schedule as well. It would make things much easier for players, rather than stopping the season midway for a World Cup, Euros or CONCACAF tournaments.

Oh God, NO, NO, NO! Can you imagine NYRB or NE Revs playing this past weekend? What about Chicago in December and January? That's insanity.

This isn't Europe. It should not aspire to be Europe. It's different.

[bob]

Why the hell is US Soccer playing a friendly against Mexico in San Antonio on a Wednesday night? Way to guarantee a 50 / 50 fan turn out (at best).

[sovereignstar v2]

Because its a friendly?

[MrBug708]

Money

[ISiddiqui]

Yeah, a 50/50 Friendly crowd doesn't hurt the US. It'll likely be a fun, World Cup like atmosphere with nothing on the line.

[cartman]

At the Gold Cup semifinals at Jerry's World a couple of years back, the split was probably something like 65% Mexican/20% US/10% Honduran/5% Panamanian

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by Grover

Who is this hot new striker, Fernando Torres?

Surprised Chelsea or Liverpool haven't snatched him up yet.

[ISiddiqui]

Quite good news:

Reports: Sebastian Giovinco nearing agreement with Juve to join TFC in February | Soccer By Ives

Giovinco seems likely to be ready to play for TFC when the season starts! Well, provided there isn't a strike...

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by bob

Why the hell is US Soccer playing a friendly against Mexico in San Antonio on a Wednesday night? Way to guarantee a 50 / 50 fan turn out (at best).

Like others have said, it's money (US Soccer cares more about total butts in the seats than who they root for *for friendlies*), but it's also a compromise. Instead of alternating friendlies in Azteca and Columbus or Foxboro, the US/Mexico will just schedule most friendlies in LA/Phoenix/Texas/Florida where both will make more money.

[ISiddiqui]

An extremely interesting legal article on WHY the MLS is so resistant to Free Agency:

http://americansoccernow.com/article...-agency-battle

THE MOST RECENT RUMBLINGS from the trenches of the negotiations over a new collective bargaining agreement between Major League Soccer and its players has made it clear that free agency is the major stumbling block.

The players have certainly made it clear that free agency is their No. 1 priority. MLS Players Union executive Bob Foose told the Orlando Sentinel’s Paul Tenorio that “There is no negotiation going on at this point with regard to free agency. That makes it impossible to get a deal done. If that’s going to stay the same, I certainly don’t see a deal getting done.” Los Angeles Galaxy defender Todd Dunivant, a member of the Union’s executive board, echoed these sentiments, telling SI.com’s Brian Straus that “Free agency has to be in this deal for the players to play on opening day. I think that’s the bottom line.”

Just as clearly, Major League Soccer indicated that free agency is not on the table from its perspective, leaving it out of the owners’ most recent proposal to the players. During the last round of CBA negotiations five years ago, the league agreed to a re-entry draft that at least allowed some level of player movement for those players whose contracts had expired or options went unexercised. Players still don’t have freedom of movement, though, under this system. It simply prevents one team from blocking the movement of a player to another team that might want to claim them under the draft.

For the league, the concern is that free agency will lead to spiraling costs. After all, if teams have to bid for players in an open market, that bidding should drive up the price or at least make predictions about prices uncertain, especially with deep-pocketed new owners entering the league.

The union, by contrast, maintains that the existence of a salary cap removes all such concerns. Free agency may help some players get fair value compared to salaries of similar players around the league, but it wouldn’t allow teams to spend beyond the league-mandated cap, whether hard or soft with a luxury tax similar to the one employed in the NBA.

In many respects, however, the real issue isn’t free agency per se, but the league’s distinctive single-entity system.

In the NFL, for instance, the Seattle Seahawks and New England Patriots are considered different legal entities. In MLS, by contrast, the most recent MLS Cup participants—the Los Angeles Galaxy and the New England Revolution— are, in many respects, treated as divisions of the same legal entity and its players are employed by MLS.

The league is a limited liability company and the owners are investor-operators in the LLC. By operating as a single entity, the league shields itself from antitrust suits under the theory that a corporation cannot conspire with one of its divisions or subsidiaries in restraint of trade.

MLS long ago substantially weakened its single-entity structure by permitting more and more discretion to the investor-operators, leading the First Circuit Court of Appeals in Fraser v. Major League Soccer to characterize MLS in 2002 as a “hybrid” between a single company with a complete unity of interest and a collection of independent competitors. The court did not need to reach the question of whether MLS was still a single entity, though, because it affirmed a jury finding that the players had failed to prove that the league, which was then in its infancy and might be viewed differently if the case were brought today, had the market power to unreasonably restrain competition.

Since Fraser, there has been further movement away from the unity of control characteristic of a single-entity system. For example, the designated player system for signing superstar players like David Beckham and Thierry Henry means that those players are primarily paid by the individual investors rather than by MLS. Similarly, the new soccer-specific stadiums that have been developed across the league are owned by the individual investors rather than by MLS.

True free agency might weaken the single-entity structure even further and lead a court to find in the players’ favor in a subsequent antitrust suit.

The single-entity structure is one way the league shields itself from an antitrust violation, but a collective bargaining agreement is another. There was no player’s union or CBA when Fraser was decided, so the single-entity structure was essential. Since 2003, when the players’ union was certified as the players’ representative for purposes of the National Labor Relations Act, the league has effectively been operating under a belt-and-suspenders approach in guarding against an antitrust claim: The CBA was one defense against such a claim, but if that failed or if the union decertified and several players individually filed suit, the single-entity structure would be an additional defense. However, if free agency reduced the viability of the single entity defense, then the threat of an antitrust suit in response to a breakdown in collective bargaining agreement negotiations would be much more serious.

Victory in an antitrust suit would upend all cost containment measures MLS does or could potentially employ, including salary caps, time of service restrictions, and other mechanisms commonly used by other American sports leagues. In this sense, the players’ argument that MLS could maintain cost certainty and containment through such traditional mechanisms must ring a bit hollow to the owners. If the league grants free agency, even of the restricted type employed in other leagues, then the owners may lose their back-up single entity defense, which would potentially expose them to the threat of completely unrestricted free agency of the type leading to financial ruin for many clubs in Europe.

This isn’t to suggest that the players would sue under the antitrust laws, or even that they would have a good chance of success if they did, but the heightened seriousness of the threat would give them far greater leverage in negotiations over future collective bargaining agreements than they have currently.

It is this potential shift in power and its potential for raising costs, rather than free agency itself, which may be causing the owners to hold firm in negotiations.

Steven Bank is Paul Hastings Professor of Business Law and Faculty Director, Lowell Milken Institute for Business Law and Policy, UCLA School of Law. He has taught courses in tax and business entity law, including a soccer law seminar entitled “Law, Lawyering, and the Beautiful Game.

Basically the league is concerned that opening up Free Agency may destroy the legal argument that the league is a single entity with subsidiaries, leaving it open to various anti-trust suits that may destroy the fragile growth the league has done. It's not an invalid fear, and puts the issue into a better light. I'm still for free agency, but I can see the owners' fear as more than just irrationalism.

[kingfc22]

Sounds like the Africa Cup of Nations game today is going well for the home fans.

Guinea losing to Ghana 3-0 and the game has consisted of a constant barrage of bottles and stones being thrown at the Ghana team.

[kingfc22]

In the past half hour according to @foxsoccertrax

Police have escorted fans of Ghana out of the stadium
Stands full of fights
Helicopter flying over one end of the stadium
Tear gas outside of the stadium

So what do the officials just decide to do...GAME ON to finish out the final 6 minutes.

[Sublime 2]

Harry Kane, just wow.

[Grover]

Time to see what Kane and Sturridge can do together for England.

[cschex]

That Kane guy has a face you just want to punch...but he was excellent today. Arsenal needs to pick themselves off the mat

[Grover]

Over/Under of 4.5 for the number of goals Chelsea wins by.

I'm taking the over.

[EagleFan]

Breaking news: Aston Villa has scored... Only took them about eleven hours of playing time between goals.

[Grover]

Kevin Nolan plodding through midfield today. Ugh.

[MrBug708]

Crystal Palace at 13th currently with 26 points. I think they need to grab 37 to be safe this year. Considering all that has happened, that would be stunning

[Grover]

KOUYATE! GET IN!

We've looked the better side in this match. Tight at the back, strong moving forward. I'm feeling good about this.

[ISiddiqui]

This USMNT looks infinitely more dangerous with Zardes in the lineup. His speed and touch have really energized the US side. Almost reminds me of a young Donovan with how he has seemingly taken over the game with his pace and skill.

Also, I'm glad that Klinsi has figured out that playing Bradley deeper is the best way to utilize him and makes the team so much better!

[ISiddiqui]

(may I add, thank you SO MUCH Sling TV for allowing me to watch the game, even though its on ESPN and I don't have cable )

[Galaxy]

Will Financial Fair Play change?

Bosman lawyer battling FFP: We're happy with Man City, we don't want another Pompey | FourFourTwo

Sounds like a move towards like the League One financial system?

Financial Fair Play in League One: Separating fact from myth - Coventry Telegraph

[ISiddiqui]

MLS & USL Pro throwing down today:

USL unveils new name and logo ahead of 2015 season, announces intent to pursue second-division status | MLSsoccer.com

USL continued its offseason of unprecedented change on Tuesday, with the league unveiling a new name and look ahead of the 2015 season while also announcing it's intent to pursue second-division status.

A partner of Major League Soccer, United Soccer Leagues announced that it will now be officially known as USL instead of USL PRO and revealed a new logo, which features a simple, geometric design that – like the new MLS logo – can be customized with the colors of each of the league’s 24 clubs.

USL also announced that it will apply this year for US Soccer’s Division 2 sanctioning “to accurately reflect the quality of our league, our ownership groups, our stadiums and our fans.” USL is currently the third-tier of US Soccer, with the NASL holding Division 2 status.

The 2015 USL season will see the debut of 13 new USL clubs, seven of which are owned and operated by MLS teams. In all, eight USL teams are owned and operated by MLS clubs, with LA Galaxy II set to enter their second season in the league and FC Montreal (Montreal Impact), New York Red Bulls II, Portland Timbers 2, Real Monarchs SLC (Real Salt Lake), Seattle Sounders FC 2, Toronto FC II and Vancouver Whitecaps FC 2 set to debut this year.

The 12 MLS clubs that don’t own and operate their own USL team are all affiliated with a USL club. MLS clubs will be able to loan players back and forth from their senior roster to their USL club/affiliate throughout the 2015 season.

And trying to D2 status - they are definitely gunning for NASL.

[BishopMVP]

Interesting how many MLS teams are formally running their own teams. I know Barcelona and a couple other Spanish teams have B/C teams in lower divisions, but this is almost an attempt to Americanize tiers by creating an MLB/AAA divide instead of a true promotion/relegation system. A system like that where younger players can get real games and fans can easily follow them would be nice imo.

[ISiddiqui]

Agreed. This feels almost a sudden coup by the MLS. One one hand, you'd think, well having reserve teams 2 leagues down allows for young players to get experience in the lowest pro league. But the re-branding and attempt to try to make the league D2 is an obvious attempt to kill the NASL and destroy any and all Pro/Rel attempts. I approve, MLS, I approve.

Now grant some free agency so we can have a season on time.

[flere-imsaho]

I understand we're not going to have promotion & relegation, but I'm still sad about it.

[ISiddiqui]

Not I .

I'm an American sports fan. I fully admit that if an Atlanta MLS team fell to a second division, I would likely lose quite a bit of interest in them. Say what you will about me, but I'm betting most American sports fans would have the same opinion.

[Grover]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Not I .

I'm an American sports fan. I fully admit that if an Atlanta MLS team fell to a second division, I would likely lose quite a bit of interest in them. Say what you will about me, but I'm betting most American sports fans would have the same opinion.

True story. American sports fans are much more bandwagon than European fans. Sadly.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Grover

True story. American sports fans are much more bandwagon than European fans. Sadly.

Ehh, much of that hardcore European fan loyalty is based on the team having a local geographical connection, so college teams are a more apt comparison imo. And you find plenty of hardcore fans of bad college teams.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Ehh, much of that hardcore European fan loyalty is based on the team having a local geographical connection, so college teams are a more apt comparison imo. And you find plenty of hardcore fans of bad college teams.

Yep, nothing bandwagon about it. Basically, I didn't sign up to back a minor league team.

[Grover]

I don't really consider Championship, League One or Two teams to be 'minor league'

[ISiddiqui]

It isn't in the English League system (well, League One and Two may be considered that way by fans), because of how the system came about - too many local teams to contain it in one league.

But in the US, the NASL and USL are definitely minor league.