Middle East - what's next - Page 22

JPhillips · 05-31-2010, 06:45 PM

Oh fuck.

Turkey is going to up the ante with Israel by sending relief ships escorted by Turkish warships. And as if that weren't bad enough, Turkey has requested an emergency meeting of NATO where they may be able to invoke Article V due to a non-member attack on a member flagged ship. Of course NATO members won't attack Israel, but it could dissolve the alliance.

Noop · 05-31-2010, 06:52 PM

I hope we cut political ties with Israel as well.

EagleFan · 05-31-2010, 07:12 PM

How about we actually let an investigation take place...

rowech · 05-31-2010, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

I hope we cut political ties with Israel as well.

So the Biblical prophecy can come closer and closer to coming true?

DaddyTorgo · 05-31-2010, 07:17 PM

I think I've gone off in this thread before about how irritated I get with the whole "primacy of Israel in US foreign relations" before, so I'll save my rant.

I wish we'd treat them just like any other country though, instead of treating them like some sacred cow. It hamstrings a lot of our potential options in the region.

DaddyTorgo · 05-31-2010, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

So the Biblical prophecy can come closer and closer to coming true?

Is that necessarily our problem though? They're big boys...they shouldn't need us to prop them up at our own expense anymore (financial or otherwise). What makes them any different than any other country in the world? Our relationships with them should be judged the same way any of our other foreign relations are.

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

Is that necessarily our problem though? They're big boys...they shouldn't need us to prop them up at our own expense anymore (financial or otherwise). What makes them any different than any other country in the world? Our relationships with them should be judged the same way any of our other foreign relations are.

There's quite a few reasons why they are different to other nations, from a US point of view.

The United States really needs Israel, because it gives them an ally and counter-weight located in a very convenient place. Unfortunately, Israel has become very powerful (thanks again to the United States) and has shown time and time again that it will act on whatever it feels its best interests are, regardless of support or approval from the US. It's now hamstrung the US, because any action it takes, regardless of whether it has US approval or not (and I imagine the majority of the time it does not), is also blamed on the US because of the close ties between the two countries, AND the US is in the delicate position of basically having to offically remain silent, or at least not outright condemn, Israel.

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

How about we actually let an investigation take place...

You'll have to excuse me if I don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

panerd · 05-31-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I think I've gone off in this thread before about how irritated I get with the whole "primacy of Israel in US foreign relations" before, so I'll save my rant.

I wish we'd treat them just like any other country though, instead of treating them like some sacred cow. It hamstrings a lot of our potential options in the region.

+1

Now you're talking. You see, we don't disagree on everything.

EagleFan · 05-31-2010, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

You'll have to excuse me if I don't give them the benefit of the doubt.

Your country has a blockade set up and ships refuse requests to have their cargo inspected as they try to get through the blockade and your reaction would be...?

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

Your country has a blockade set up and ships refuse requests to have their cargo inspected as they try to get through the blockade and your reaction would be...?

Excusing the issue of why the blockade is set up (which is a pretty big part of the issue), I'm certain my country and its military would not have acted like Israel's did. I don't think your's would have either.

Galaxy · 05-31-2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Excusing the issue of why the blockade is set up (which is a pretty big part of the issue), I'm certain my country and its military would not have acted like Israel's did. I don't think your's would have either.

Not exactly sure how you can compare Australia to Israel.

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Not exactly sure how you can compare Australia to Israel.

And that's a very good thing, unfortunately.

EagleFan · 05-31-2010, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Excusing the issue of why the blockade is set up (which is a pretty big part of the issue), I'm certain my country and its military would not have acted like Israel's did. I don't think your's would have either.

So you wold rather they allow them to continue and just pray that they aren't carrying weapons? I could see that going over well...

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

So you wold rather they allow them to continue and just pray that they aren't carrying weapons? I could see that going over well...

No, I wouldn't expect that. I think they have several options available to them, but as usual they go with the most extreme option because they know they can get away with it.

lighthousekeeper · 05-31-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Not exactly sure how you can compare Australia to Israel.

Just ask Scrappy Coco

panerd · 05-31-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Not exactly sure how you can compare Australia to Israel.

I don't think he did, he was responding to Eaglefan's post about what he would do if it was his own country. How else is he supposed to answer?

Greyroofoo · 05-31-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

No, I wouldn't expect that. I think they have several options available to them, but as usual they go with the most extreme option because they know they can get away with it.

What options are those?

Noop · 05-31-2010, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

So the Biblical prophecy can come closer and closer to coming true?

... not everyone believes in the bible broski.

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

What options are those?

At the very least wait until they hit Israeli waters before doing anything. Then you have the option of naval blockades to stop the ships heading towards their destination. Will take some time, but this is what my country would do, and does do, when we get illegal ships entering our waters. This is the logical first step, and a step that should come well before you storm the ships with commandos.

Greyroofoo · 05-31-2010, 08:36 PM

Well in other news

"Al-Qaida says No. 3 leader, bin Laden's brother-in-law, killed" — NBC News
No links posted yet.

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Well in other news

"Al-Qaida says No. 3 leader, bin Laden's brother-in-law, killed" — NBC News
No links posted yet.

Woo-hoo! I'm sure there is no way the Al-Qaida will ever be able to replace him with some other radical!

Greyroofoo · 05-31-2010, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Woo-hoo! I'm sure there is no way the Al-Qaida will ever be able to replace him with some other radical!

Whenever we kill the Al-Queda no. 2 or 3 I always imagine the head guy exclaiming, "Uh-Oh, we're going to need another Timmy!"

rowech · 05-31-2010, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

... not everyone believes in the bible broski.

Probably why you're so willing to cast off Israel. All I can say is you better be really sure you're right because it doesn't end well for those against Israel if you end up being wrong.

panerd · 05-31-2010, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

Probably why you're so willing to cast off Israel. All I can say is you better be really sure you're right because it doesn't end well for those against Israel if you end up being wrong.

Of all 1000+ posts in this thread this has to be the dumbest. Biblical prophecies? Are you serious?

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

Probably why you're so willing to cast off Israel. All I can say is you better be really sure you're right because it doesn't end well for those against Israel if you end up being wrong.

That area that now makes up Israel was out of the hands of the Jewish people for a long, long time before the 20th century.

Best to just leave religion out of this thread altogether IMO. It doesn't tend to lead to constructive chit-chat.

JPhillips · 05-31-2010, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EagleFan

So you wold rather they allow them to continue and just pray that they aren't carrying weapons? I could see that going over well...

In international waters on a Turkish flagged ship? Yeah, you better let that slide. Is that ship, even if it was full of weapons worth what they are going ot pay? Obviously not.

I'm fully behind a state of Israel, but God almightly it would be nice if some of the political leaders would see that their actions aren't helping safeguard their nation.

Noop · 05-31-2010, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rowech

Probably why you're so willing to cast off Israel. All I can say is you better be really sure you're right because it doesn't end well for those against Israel if you end up being wrong.

I think you're misguided in your belief of Israel. They are the biggest threat to our security because of our close relationship with them.

duckman · 05-31-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop

Most countries are the biggest threat to our security because of our close relationship with them.

Fixed that for ya.

Groundhog · 05-31-2010, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duckman

Fixed that for ya.

Israel are far-and-beyond the others. I doubt it's even close. If you'd like an interesting insight into how easily Israel could drag the US into a war with Iran, read this:

http://www.foi.se/upload/nyheter/201...d%20omslag.pdf

sterlingice · 05-31-2010, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyroofoo

Whenever we kill the Al-Queda no. 2 or 3 I always imagine the head guy exclaiming, "Uh-Oh, we're going to need another Timmy!"

"Now Timmy, before you shake that nitroglycerin, I'm going to go over here behind this lead blast shield."

SI

Buccaneer · 05-31-2010, 11:16 PM

History is full of "bibles and guns" coming across borders. Almost nothing good ever comes out of such "aid". Why should this be any different?

miked · 06-01-2010, 07:02 AM

If these are peaceful ships just carrying food, why would they allow inspections? Why are they trying to outrun military blockades? I guess as long as it's some other country, we should just wait to see what happens. But it's really easy to be anti-Israel these days.

Also, I believe most articles were saying there were hardly any Turks aboard the ship? So yeah, it was Turkish flagged but what does that mean?

JPhillips · 06-01-2010, 07:11 AM

Here's a great article from StratFor comparing this to the Exodus campaign to drive the British out of the Palestine Mandate.

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100...3645c5d73e93b4

Grammaticus · 06-01-2010, 07:29 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12K...layer_embedded

Here is a link to youtube videos of the Israeli's interacting with the peaceful protesters. No matter what you think about the event, these are interesting video clips.

Mizzou B-ball fan · 06-01-2010, 09:14 AM

Pretty vivid details in this article that seem to match much of what the videos show.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...896796,00.html

albionmoonlight · 06-01-2010, 09:39 AM

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...wn-goal/57490/

Basically, to draw a crude analogy, I see Israel as like a guy whose next door neighbor keeps on picking on him, overturning his trashcans, stealing his newspapers, throwing rocks at his dog, etc.

From my point of view, Israel is "right" in general, and Israel's foes are "wrong."

But then, this is like the poor guy just snapping and, upon seeing his "wrong" neighbor standing on the corner walking toward his house, starting to shoot at him or something while the guy is still on the sidewalk.

In the grand scheme of things, Israel is "right." But, in this particular incident, they are totally in the wrong.

I mean, dropping commandos onto a ship in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign nation? Seriously? That's a declaration of war, basically.

I can't begin to understand the pressures under which Israel operates. And I can see how those pressures could lead to a move like this. But it was a very, very bad thing to do. And, since the parties on the other side of this (Iran, etc.) have no incentive to live and let live, I'm not sure how we get out of it.

Ronnie Dobbs2 · 06-01-2010, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Woo-hoo! I'm sure there is no way the Al-Qaida will ever be able to replace him with some other radical!

Al-Qaida #3 = drummer from Spinal Tap.

molson · 06-01-2010, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...wn-goal/57490/

Basically, to draw a crude analogy, I see Israel as like a guy whose next door neighbor keeps on picking on him, overturning his trashcans, stealing his newspapers, throwing rocks at his dog, etc.

From my point of view, Israel is "right" in general, and Israel's foes are "wrong."

But then, this is like the poor guy just snapping and, upon seeing his "wrong" neighbor standing on the corner walking toward his house, starting to shoot at him or something while the guy is still on the sidewalk.

In the grand scheme of things, Israel is "right." But, in this particular incident, they are totally in the wrong.

I mean, dropping commandos onto a ship in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign nation? Seriously? That's a declaration of war, basically.

I can't begin to understand the pressures under which Israel operates. And I can see how those pressures could lead to a move like this. But it was a very, very bad thing to do. And, since the parties on the other side of this (Iran, etc.) have no incentive to live and let live, I'm not sure how we get out of it.

It's an interesting cycle in general that says a lot about human nature, and occurs again and again throughout history. When one side is generally "right", and the other "wrong" (even from an objective perspective), the "right" side will eventually use their rightness to justify bad activities. Those bad activities can gain a momentum, because any opposition to the "bad" is spinned as opposition to that which is generally right (and you get terms thrown at you like anti-semitic, racist, un-american, intolerant, ect, which are all very effective in stifling opposition)

molson · 06-01-2010, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Israel has become very powerful (thanks again to the United States) and has shown time and time again that it will act on whatever it feels its best interests are, regardless of support or approval from the US.

Is this true? I always thought the general assumtion was that the U.S. had kind of a leash on Israel, and if it were "unleashed", Israel would be much more aggressive in eliminating threats in the region.

I kind of imagine them lobbing nukes over to Iran in response to Iran's nuclear programs if they were completely unrestrained.

ISiddiqui · 06-01-2010, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

I mean, dropping commandos onto a ship in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign nation? Seriously? That's a declaration of war, basically.

No "basically" about it, it is one. I mean the US treated the blowing up of the battleship Maine as a declaration of war by Spain.

And the other problem is treating all the MidEast majority Muslim countries as the same "neighbor". Turkey, for one, has been far closer to Israel diplomatically than other countries in the region.

ISiddiqui · 06-01-2010, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson

Is this true? I always thought the general assumtion was that the U.S. had kind of a leash on Israel, and if it were "unleashed", Israel would be much more aggressive in eliminating threats in the region.

I kind of imagine them lobbing nukes over to Iran in response to Iran's nuclear programs if they were completely unrestrained.

Not entirely true, in terms of general assumption. There is also an assumption is that Israel is far more aggressive because they know the US has their back in case anything disasterous happens.

miked · 06-01-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by albionmoonlight

Israel Scores an Own-Goal - International - The Atlantic

Basically, to draw a crude analogy, I see Israel as like a guy whose next door neighbor keeps on picking on him, overturning his trashcans, stealing his newspapers, throwing rocks at his dog, etc.

From my point of view, Israel is "right" in general, and Israel's foes are "wrong."

But then, this is like the poor guy just snapping and, upon seeing his "wrong" neighbor standing on the corner walking toward his house, starting to shoot at him or something while the guy is still on the sidewalk.

In the grand scheme of things, Israel is "right." But, in this particular incident, they are totally in the wrong.

I mean, dropping commandos onto a ship in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign nation? Seriously? That's a declaration of war, basically.

I can't begin to understand the pressures under which Israel operates. And I can see how those pressures could lead to a move like this. But it was a very, very bad thing to do. And, since the parties on the other side of this (Iran, etc.) have no incentive to live and let live, I'm not sure how we get out of it.

While I agree with the generalities of the analogy, it is more like your neighbor firing flaming potato cannons at your house every day for a while. Occasionally strapping M80s to his dog while throwing milkbone's in your house and yard.

sterlingice · 06-01-2010, 12:52 PM

I Google'd it. 57,000 hits for "flaming potato gun" including a handful of youtube videos and a site that cautions: "Flaming, explosive, black powder, or living projectiles can often make a legal spud gun illegal in many jurisdictions"

SI

miked · 06-01-2010, 01:07 PM

LOL.

When I was in college, one of my roommates was an engineer and lived on an army base (his dad was military). We built not just your standard issue potato gun, this one was made of PVC piping with exhaust holes, a butane ignited trigger, and what was supposed to be a top-mounted clip for extra rounds. We used to fill it up with shaving cream when we got drunk and knocked on people's doors in the dorm...hilarity (and sometimes aggression) ensued.

Galaxy · 06-01-2010, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by miked

If these are peaceful ships just carrying food, why would they allow inspections? Why are they trying to outrun military blockades? I guess as long as it's some other country, we should just wait to see what happens. But it's really easy to be anti-Israel these days.

Also, I believe most articles were saying there were hardly any Turks aboard the ship? So yeah, it was Turkish flagged but what does that mean?

Doesn't Egypt work with Israel on the blockade in Gaza? Didn't Israel offer the ships to stop in Egypt for inspection? Did Turkey contact Israel ahead of time and let them know of the ships coming with aid?

To answer my own questions:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37442104...ideastn_africa

JonInMiddleGA · 06-01-2010, 01:58 PM

Amid the increasing tensions, the Israeli military said it carried out an airstrike in Gaza on Tuesday, and an Islamic militant group said three of its members were killed after firing rockets into southern Israel. Israeli authorities say the rockets landed in open areas and caused no injuries.

Two militants infiltrating into Israel from Gaza were killed in a separate incident Tuesday, the military said.

Good to see that this has not stopped other good work.

Galaril · 06-01-2010, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by panerd

Of all 1000+ posts in this thread this has to be the dumbest. Biblical prophecies? Are you serious?

I am a Catholic and too have to agree. More surprising is from a rational intelligent poster non the less. I hope we never start conducting policy based any religious writings.

rowech · 06-01-2010, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaril

I am a Catholic and too have to agree. More surprising is from a rational intelligent poster non the less. I hope we never start conducting policy based any religious writings.

They're wrong a lot of the time. We should come out and say they're wrong when they're wrong. We shouldn't treat them any different just because they're Israel. That said, there's no way we should EVER abandon them as an ally.

My comment was said mostly tongue-in-cheek but I do find it amazing how much more possible a prophecy involving Israel standing alone against everyone seems to be becoming. You can't run your policy because of it though.

JPhillips · 06-01-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galaxy

Doesn't Egypt work with Israel on the blockade in Gaza?

Not any more. Egypt has apparently opened their side of Gaza and are claiming it's permanent.

05-31-2010, 06:45 PM	#1051
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	Oh fuck. Turkey is going to up the ante with Israel by sending relief ships escorted by Turkish warships. And as if that weren't bad enough, Turkey has requested an emergency meeting of NATO where they may be able to invoke Article V due to a non-member attack on a member flagged ship. Of course NATO members won't attack Israel, but it could dissolve the alliance. __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

05-31-2010, 06:52 PM	#1052
Noop Bonafide Seminole Fan Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Miami	I hope we cut political ties with Israel as well. __________________ Subby's favorite woman hater.

05-31-2010, 07:17 PM	#1055
DaddyTorgo Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Massachusetts	I think I've gone off in this thread before about how irritated I get with the whole "primacy of Israel in US foreign relations" before, so I'll save my rant. I wish we'd treat them just like any other country though, instead of treating them like some sacred cow. It hamstrings a lot of our potential options in the region. __________________ Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature.

06-01-2010, 07:02 AM	#1083
miked College Starter Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The Dirty	If these are peaceful ships just carrying food, why would they allow inspections? Why are they trying to outrun military blockades? I guess as long as it's some other country, we should just wait to see what happens. But it's really easy to be anti-Israel these days. Also, I believe most articles were saying there were hardly any Turks aboard the ship? So yeah, it was Turkish flagged but what does that mean? __________________ Commish of the United Baseball League (OOTP 6.5)

06-01-2010, 07:11 AM	#1084
JPhillips Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Newburgh, NY	Here's a great article from StratFor comparing this to the Exodus campaign to drive the British out of the Palestine Mandate. http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100...3645c5d73e93b4 __________________ To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers

05-31-2010, 07:12 PM	#1053
EagleFan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Mays Landing, NJ USA	How about we actually let an investigation take place...

05-31-2010, 08:36 PM	#1071
Greyroofoo Pro Starter Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Alabama	Well in other news "Al-Qaida says No. 3 leader, bin Laden's brother-in-law, killed" — NBC News No links posted yet.

05-31-2010, 11:16 PM	#1082
Buccaneer Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Colorado	History is full of "bibles and guns" coming across borders. Almost nothing good ever comes out of such "aid". Why should this be any different?

06-01-2010, 07:29 AM	#1085
Grammaticus Pro Rookie Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Tennessee	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12K...layer_embedded Here is a link to youtube videos of the Israeli's interacting with the peaceful protesters. No matter what you think about the event, these are interesting video clips.

06-01-2010, 09:14 AM	#1086
Mizzou B-ball fan General Manager Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Kansas City, MO	Pretty vivid details in this article that seem to match much of what the videos show. http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...896796,00.html

06-01-2010, 09:39 AM	#1087
albionmoonlight Head Coach Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: North Carolina	http://www.theatlantic.com/internati...wn-goal/57490/ Basically, to draw a crude analogy, I see Israel as like a guy whose next door neighbor keeps on picking on him, overturning his trashcans, stealing his newspapers, throwing rocks at his dog, etc. From my point of view, Israel is "right" in general, and Israel's foes are "wrong." But then, this is like the poor guy just snapping and, upon seeing his "wrong" neighbor standing on the corner walking toward his house, starting to shoot at him or something while the guy is still on the sidewalk. In the grand scheme of things, Israel is "right." But, in this particular incident, they are totally in the wrong. I mean, dropping commandos onto a ship in international waters flying the flag of a sovereign nation? Seriously? That's a declaration of war, basically. I can't begin to understand the pressures under which Israel operates. And I can see how those pressures could lead to a move like this. But it was a very, very bad thing to do. And, since the parties on the other side of this (Iran, etc.) have no incentive to live and let live, I'm not sure how we get out of it.

06-01-2010, 12:52 PM	#1094
sterlingice Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Back in Houston!	I Google'd it. 57,000 hits for "flaming potato gun" including a handful of youtube videos and a site that cautions: "Flaming, explosive, black powder, or living projectiles can often make a legal spud gun illegal in many jurisdictions" SI __________________ Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!"

06-01-2010, 01:07 PM	#1095
miked College Starter Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: The Dirty	LOL. When I was in college, one of my roommates was an engineer and lived on an army base (his dad was military). We built not just your standard issue potato gun, this one was made of PVC piping with exhaust holes, a butane ignited trigger, and what was supposed to be a top-mounted clip for extra rounds. We used to fill it up with shaving cream when we got drunk and knocked on people's doors in the dorm...hilarity (and sometimes aggression) ensued. __________________ Commish of the United Baseball League (OOTP 6.5)

06-01-2010, 01:58 PM	#1097
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Amid the increasing tensions, the Israeli military said it carried out an airstrike in Gaza on Tuesday, and an Islamic militant group said three of its members were killed after firing rockets into southern Israel. Israeli authorities say the rockets landed in open areas and caused no injuries. Two militants infiltrating into Israel from Gaza were killed in a separate incident Tuesday, the military said. Good to see that this has not stopped other good work. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

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