The Thread of the 2009-2010 NBA Season

[bulletsponge]

preach on Brother Troy, ive said for years Iverson is the most overrated player. Camby and Iverson are the poster children for "stats are overrated". they get their "numbers" at the expense of the team, and they take more than they give

and by years i mean a decade +

[jbergey22]

I know that mello is more than a capable passer. When he and Nene work together they are unstoppable. My point is when the Nuggets get behind or Mello feels the need to put up 40 the offense just stalls. I guess I do notice the standing around that you talk about but to me it seems like they are creating an ISO situation for Carmello.

The Nuggets have a lot of nice offensive weapons. Mello doesnt need to be scoring 30 points per game forcing shots.

Just watching the All Star game the other night when the East took the 141-139 lead someone I was watching the game with said "I bet the west wins because Chauncey and Dirk have been scoring at will." I replied "Ill take the East because they will design a play for Carmello and he wont think about passing."

Carmello is one of the great players in the league but to me he just doesnt get it yet. I like Carmello but I expect a lot from him because he is so talented. Talentwise IMO he is right there with LeBron. As far as game smarts Lebron is far ahead of him.

Also I agree with everything you have said about Iverson. He is #1 on my list of most overrated players of all time.

[TroyF]

Do a search for "Game Winning Shot Percentage" and you'll find Melo has been the best in the league over the last 5 years. By far and away the best in the league by the way.

Also, if you go to 82games.com last year and look up "clutch" stats, you'll find some revealing things. They defined clutch as +/- 5 points with 5 minutes or less in the game. Here are the top 5 players in points per 48:

Kobe - 56.7 points, 45.7% FG, 40% 3PT, 18.2 FTA
Lebron - 55.9 points, 55.6% FG, 42.1% 3PT, 20.8 FTA
Wade - 49.2 points, 47% FG, 28.1% 3PT, 22.3 FTA
Paul - 45.1 points, 49.4% FG, 37.5% 3PT, 17.5 FTA

Melo - 54.4 points, 56.5% FG, 58.3% 3PT (on 7 attempts per 48), 24.0 FTA

You can have your opinion, but when I look at the numbers above and watch the games, I think Carmelo "gets it" just fine.Don't get me wrong, this isn't a Melo love fest. I know the guy has certain problems.

I also know that in the decade before Melo came to Denver, the Nuggets hadn't made the playoffs one time in ten years. I know that they've made it every year Melo has been a Nugget. Just the fact of you saying "Carmelo won't think about passing" shows you simply don't watch Nuggets basketball a lot. You mention Dirk in you analysis and either ignore or don't care to know that Dirk is a far worse passer than Melo is.

Lebron is ahead of Melo. . . and the rest of the league. . . in athleticism. Yes, his basketball IQ is high, but he's simply got talent gifts others don't have. The guy is 6'8", 250 pounds, runs like a WR has the power of a full back and has ball handling skills comparable to a PG. He's a freak of nature. I'd argue that Melo "gets it" every bit as much as Lebron, but he will never have those physical gifts.

[jbergey22]

Originally Posted by TroyF

You mention Dirk in you analysis and either ignore or don't care to know that Dirk is a far worse passer than Melo is.

I did? I havent even made an analysis. It was a general observation from watching the All Star game the other night that Carmelo wouldnt pass. Was I right? He chose to try a double clutch three pointer with a man in his face over passing to 1 of 2 guys that were on fire at that point. Sure its the all-star game but its generally the same feeling I get a lot of times when I see him play.

If Billups is hot or JR Smith is hot is doesnt matter to Carmelo he is going to get his. Im sorry Nene you just got your 4 straight dunks it is my turn to shoot.

What physical gifts exactly does Lebron have that Carmelo doesnt? They are both 6 8', they are both rock solid, they both can jump out of the gym, they both are quick and fast as hell. Lebron may be a little stronger and have better straight line speed but I dont really feel Carmelo should be embarrassed athletically to Lebron.

In order to use a stat like you posted a larger sample size is needed. +/- 5 points in the last 5 minutes of a game over an 82 game season. Do you have the career marks of these guys? You could be cherry picking a stat for all I know.

[Groundhog]

jbergey I understand what you're saying, but that's the nature of team sport, basketball in particular. Carmello is a scorer, he's the best scorer on his team, and he's encouraged to score. When the ball is in his hands, he's thinking that he's going to be able to put it in the hoop, because that's what he does, and that's why he scores so many points. Nene might've just slammed it home 4 times in a row, but on any given possession I'd rather the ball be in Carmello's hands than Nene's if I need 2 points.

And Carmello is a gifted athlete, sure, but he is not LeBron James. Not even close. LeBron is built like a linebacker, with the quickness of a 5'11 waterbug PG. Melo is tall and has decent straight-ahead speed, but he doesn't have the same burst as LeBron, not by a longshot.

I may not have seen hundreds of Nuggets games over the years, but with the amount I've seen since Carmello has been there - let's say 20 or 30 + playoffs - he's just stupidly deadly in the clutch. I don't need stats to tell me that, I've seen it enough with my own eyes.

[jbergey22]

I understand what you guys are saying as well. Maybe I just expect more than I should from Carmelo. I watch Kobe and Lebron play and I never have a doubt they did their best to give the team best chance to win sometimes when I watch Carmelo I end up shaking my head with frustration.

I'm not really a Nuggets fan but I do like to bet on them. Usually when I bet on them and lose I feel it was Carmelo that didnt bring his best game. So you are right I am probably missing the big picture.

I should take that back. There was a playoff game a few years back where Kobe just threw in the towel. He was pouting about not having enough talent and he quit on his team in the 2nd half against the Suns.

[TroyF]

jbergey,

This is no BS, I've seen Carmelo throw the ball to Anthony Carter, Yakouba Diawarra and Linus Kleiza to hit game on the line shots. He was covered, they were open, he passed. (The first two guys missed, the last guy actually came through)

Carmelo's main job with the Nuggets is to score. He has secondary roles, but first and foremost, he needs to shoot the ball. Everything else the Nuggets do on offense is set up by Carmelo attacking the basket.

As for Melo quitting, I've seen it a handful of times in his career. Usually the scenario goes something like this: He gets beat to hell in the post for 2 and a half quarters, he picks up a stupid T, the guy who is beating him to hell in the post flops and draws a charge and Melo becomes a three point shooter.

Before anyone jumps in and screams refs are bad all the time and that Melo gets his share of calls, I know he does. I'm just telling you the recipe to make Melo start to shut it down.

I'll admit that I'm a Melo fanboy. I think he's been a very underappreciated player for a long time. My favorite Melo stats evolve around the 2006/7 playoffs.

Denver had a rough year. Kenyon Martin played 2 games. Nene was hurt for 1/2 the season. Melo and JR had long suspensions because of the brawl. yet the plugged away and won 45 games. In the East they'd have been battling for home court. In the West they played the 58 win Spurs in the first round. The Nuggets were taken out in 5 games by the Spurs. The Cavs went through the "L"east, their 50 wins gave them home court til the Pistons series. There they played a team just slightly better than they were. The Cavs ended up facing the Spurs. They were waxed in 4 games. The talk of the playoffs was Lebron. (I'll never, ever, ever forget that game against Detroit, wow)

Everyone looked at Melo as being a thug and a failure. Take a look at their numbers against the Spurs:

Melo - 5 games, 48% FG, 26.8 points per game, 19.6 shots per game
Bron - 4 games, 35.5% FG, 22 points per game, 22.5 shots per game.

Melo played as good of a series as he could have played against the Spurs. (By the way, Denver lost that series because of the selfish jack ass named AI, if AI had passed the ball more, Denver had a real shot to take that series at least to 7) Bron ran through a garbage conference and was the living God.

I understand WHY this happened. If I wasn't in Denver watching things, I'd have called Bron a winner and Melo a thug punk. What I don't understand is how Melo is now playing the way he did against the Spurs almost nightly, has elevated his game to superstar status, and still deals with the same BS he did in 2006. The good thing is the haters are fewer and farther between. The Nuggets are on enough now that most people see what kind of a player he is. But I still have that defense mechanism in me that wants to remind the doubters that he's a hell of a player too. If he'd gotten to play with Shaq in his prime, if he'd gotten to play in a garbage conference, if Dumars had been smart and picked him from the start and he'd have developed for a team in contention for multiple years. . . I don't think it'd have taken 6 years for people to realize how good he really is.

[samifan24]

George Karl has been diagnosed with cancer again. He will take a medical leave but hopes to only miss 9 games in the second half.

[Neuqua]

Looks like it's down to the Knicks or Bulls for McGrady.

Crossing my fingers.

[rjolley]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

Looks like it's down to the Knicks or Bulls for McGrady.

Crossing my fingers.

For the Bulls to get him or not to get him?

[Neuqua]

I'll take that contract off our books after this year.

[TroyF]

I'm counting on McGrady. I have him on my fantasy team. A late round pick who could really help me out the second half. I don't like TMac the player, i don't like TMac if my team wants to win in the playoffs. But damn, I could use something like 15 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists for my last guard the rest of the year.

[Chief Rum]

All right, now I am swinging back full circle on this Clippers-Blazers deal, now that I see that both Outlaw and Blake are on expiring deals as well. I don't get the point of this deal at all. Was it just for the $3 M in cash? Typical Clippers.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

All right, now I am swinging back full circle on this Clippers-Blazers deal, now that I see that both Outlaw and Blake are on expiring deals as well. I don't get the point of this deal at all. Was it just for the $3 M in cash? Typical Clippers.

The only upsides I see is that you do retain the bird rights to both Blake and Outlaw. Blake is really underated as a PG (might not be an NBA starter but a solid backup) and Outlaw does have some upside. But the likelihood of Sterling going over the cap are probably zero.

You also get to see what Craig Smith and DeAndre Jordan can do. And if you lose a ton of games, it just increases your chances of getting Wall.

It was probably a money move and I can see the frustration. But Camby is not a part of the future and the team wasn't going anywhere. I guess my issue is that I thought the Clippers could get more out of the deal. The Blazers had their backs up against the wall and after Haywood got traded, there weren't a ton of options left for them. I think you could have gotten a first rounder out of the deal which could be in the top 20.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Neuqua

I'll take that contract off our books after this year.

I think it depends on who we give up. The deal I see Marc Stein reporting has us giving up Miller, Tyrus, and Jerome James. Three expiring deals too. That move doesn't seem to help us much unless Hinrich or Salmons is going somewhere else. We'd be stuck with 4 SG and no help inside (especially with Noah being hurt).

I'm also going back and forth on Hinrich being dealt for expiring deals. While I'd love to have the money for free agency, I just have a bad feeling we're not going to get anyone anyway. I think he's a solid player and while his contract is a little high, I'd hate to see him traded and us end up not being able to sign a big name in the offseason. I'd be begging anyone in sight to take Salmons off our books for next year.

I've seen so many other deals floating around too. Tyrus for Harrington. Al Jefferson for Deng and Tyrus. Salmons or Hinrich to the Bucks for expiring deals. Hinrich to the Lakers for expiring deals.

I'm just hoping the front office has a plan in place. I can't seem to figure out what they're trying to do.

[whomario]

Bill Simmons anual trade-value column : Bill Simmons: 2010 NBA trade value column - ESPN

highly interesting if you don´t expect everything to be 100% rational.

btw : Very awesome idea by Andrew Bogut (found the article via the simmons column) : Bucks Fans Respond to Bogut’s Incentive - Off the Dribble Blog - NYTimes.com

[Sublime 2]

From a couple of rumors I've read, it looks like the Celtics are close to acquiring Nate Robinson for Eddie House plus filler on both sides.

I think this would be a slight upgrade for the Celts bench, Eddie really hasn't been good for most of the season. At the very least, Nate provides a spark/change to a team really struggling right now.

Certainly not the be all end all of moves going on around the league, but still an upgrade IMO.

[Logan]

Any picks coming back to NY?

[MikeVic]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression Nate Robinson is not a big team player?

[DaddyTorgo]

interesting

[whomario]

He did keep his mouth shut during that period where D´Antoni didn´t play him though (at least from what i remember of it) and on the court, House´s job was to run arround and jack up shots for 15 minutes a night, not exactly a job description with a big emphasis on being a great teamplayer.
As the first guard off the bench for 20 minutes he can be very good if he accepts that role. The Celtics have huge trouble creating any scoring if 1 or 2 of their main guys take a breather.

[Logan]

Robinson can definitely put up a lot of points in not many minutes. If he buys into this being his shot, he could be a big pickup.

[Sublime 2]

I'm not sure exactly how BYC players work, but I know the Celtics wouldn't have any bird rights for Nate this offseason correct? But they are allowed to offer him his current contract plus 20%, even with them being over the cap?

I'm not even sure you'd want Nate around for another 4-5 years, but just thinking if he does work out for the C's, would we have to dip into the MLE?

[Big Fo]

I liked that Bogut article, it's cool that his idea seems to working out for the Bucks.

[whomario]

Best I can tell, Bird Rights are only lost when a player signs somewhere as a FA, not when he is traded.

[stevew]

His bird rights are gone cause he signed a qualifying tender IIRC.

[DeToxRox]

Apparently Darko just got swapped for Brian Cardinal.

[DeToxRox]

Washington Post is saying Jamison to the Cavs.

[DeToxRox]

"Early reports are that Antawn Jamison is headed to the Cleveland Cavaliers as a part of a three team trade.

Details haven't emerged as of yet, but early speculation is that Jamison is headed to Cleveland and newly acquired Drew Gooden is landing on a Western Conference roster. In return the Wizards are expected to get Zydrunas Ilgauskas and a first round pick."

[DeToxRox]

Cavs get Jamison and Telfair

Clippers get Drew Gooden

Wash gets Illgauskas, Al Thornton and Brian Skinner and Cavs 1st round pick.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Cavs get Jamison and Telfair

Clippers get Drew Gooden

Wash gets Illgauskas, Al Thornton and Brian Skinner and Cavs 1st round pick.

WTH are we going to do with Gooden?

Board consensus is, this guy sucks. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest otherwise. We give up a solid forward in Thornton and a steady, younger PG in Telfair for this guy? What am I missing? Is Dumbleavy just trading to trade now?

[Groundhog]

Woot, I was about to post earlier saying that out of Amar'e, Troy Murphy, and Jamison I'd rather Jamison if we want to win this year. I hope Z gets waived and signs back with Cleveland.

[Crapshoot]

Wait seriously? This is the Clippers saving money and not wanting to pay Telfair $2.7M next year; great deal for Was in getting Thornton + 1 pick; its not Hickson, but could be worse.

[Eaglesfan27]

Originally Posted by DeToxRox

Washington Post is saying Jamison to the Cavs.

This seems like a much smarter move than Amar'e. I think the Cavs just became the favorite to win the East.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Wait seriously? This is the Clippers saving money and not wanting to pay Telfair $2.7M next year; great deal for Was in getting Thornton + 1 pick; its not Hickson, but could be worse.

Yeah, Washington made out OK in this. Thornton has looked good at times but will be the odd-man out in LA, especially next season when Griffin is back. Assuming it's the Cavs own first rounder, it's going to be a low pick but hey, lately it seems that there have been some steals available in the late 1st round.

[CleBrownsfan]

I REALLY REALLY hope Washington buys out Z's contract. Z has been with the Cavs in the best and worst times - there were so many years when Z was the "man" as a Cavs before James. He has come a long way since his foot surgeries.

[bhlloy]

The Clippers ineptitude knows no bounds. Wouldn't surprise me if Dunleavy is getting back at the team for forcing him out as coach by putting together a team that Hughes won't be able to do anything with the rest of the season.

GREAT deal for the Cavs and not a bad return for Washington. Cavs favorite to win it all now I think and if nothing else it proves to Lebron they are serious about surrounding him with talent.

[stevew]

We just bought a borderline all star for money and the 30th pick in this years draft. I'm not sure I could dream of a better deal.

I'm amazed that in seeing negative reactions from cavs fans.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by stevew

We just bought a borderline all star for money and the 30th pick in this years draft. I'm not sure I could dream of a better deal.

I'm amazed that in seeing negative reactions from cavs fans.

Haven't read the reaction from Cleveland fans, but I imagine most of that would stem from losing Big Z? I'm a huge fan of Big Z, but come on, our chances of winning a title just jumped dramatically... people need to think with their heads, not their hearts. And odds are good that Z comes back anyway.

[Groundhog]

Mo Williams back soon, ditto with Leon Powe. If Powe can give us anything off the bench, I'll be happy.

[Coffee Warlord]

Reports say John Salmons is going...somewhere. Team has told Salmons to stay at the team hotel tonight.

[Crapshoot]

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).

I'm sure teams will express interest, but I'm thinking his relationship with both the city of Cleveland AND LeBron will keep him in Cleveland.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).

again - like i stated beforehand - i hate deals like this, or under-the-table agreements like this. they're shitty, and the league would be better off to eliminate them (say that a guy can't be traded and then resign with the team that traded him within say...6 months or something).

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

again - like i stated beforehand - i hate deals like this, or under-the-table agreements like this. they're shitty, and the league would be better off to eliminate them (say that a guy can't be traded and then resign with the team that traded him within say...6 months or something).

The entire contract system in the NBA is shitty, which is what causes deals like this. I doubt that's going to change anytime soon.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Reports say John Salmons is going...somewhere. Team has told Salmons to stay at the team hotel tonight.

To the Bucks for Kurt Thomas and Elson. Great deal for the Bulls as they get Salmons contract off the books for next year. They'll have as much room as anyone going into the Summer.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I have no doubt Ilgauskas is coming back; you need the big man for a potential Lakers/Orlando matchup anyway. No way CLE makes the deal without an assurance he gets waived, but its a good question as to whether he considers any other options (heck, there are a lot of teams that could use a decent passing big man).

I wouldn't be too sure. Dallas has interest in him with Dampier hurt. And I believe he has to wait 30 days before he can sign with Cleveland.

And I think that deal is good for Washington everyone involved except the Clippers. I think Thornton is a solid player and Jamison is a nice piece for Lebron to work with.

[DaddyTorgo]

30 days is ridiculous...it should be like 180

[Mantle2600]

Dallas can only offer vet minimum, cavs have more to offer with the BAE, and I dont know him but I would guess he would rather come back to the only team he has ever played for and where he has a home.

[Coffee Warlord]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

To the Bucks for Kurt Thomas and Elson. Great deal for the Bulls as they get Salmons contract off the books for next year. They'll have as much room as anyone going into the Summer.

Indeed. Good deal, more cap room for the Bulls, and offloading a guy who, while I had nothing against, has not been a good contributor this year.