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View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
03-25-2009, 10:27 AM | #1001 | ||
Hockey Boy
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
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Quote:
Uh, duh. Quote:
I guess I'm just "old school" that way. I don't think we differ "that greatly." I get the vast majority of my news from the internet. Even when I read the paper in the morning, I still visit the Detroit Free Press' website a few times a day as well as other news websites (the Free Press isn't really that great a paper). Still, I like the morning ritual sometimes of getting up, grabbing the paper off the front poor and reading it while I drink my coffee and my dog snoozes on my lap. It's nice. I'll miss it. Also, when reading the paper, I tend to read at least parts of stories that, if they were on the internet, I would never even bother to look at or know existed. That's just a format thing really. I really didn't think this was a controversial stance or something that need be debated.
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03-25-2009, 10:31 AM | #1002 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Oct 2000
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03-25-2009, 10:31 AM | #1003 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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Quote:
I get up, grab the computer off the desk, and read the the news while drinking coffee with the dog snoozing on my lap. It's really not that different, other than avoiding the need to wash the ink off your hands when you're done reading it. |
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03-25-2009, 10:34 AM | #1004 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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Quote:
I'm with ya, and for me it extends to magazines and books also. I sit at a desk and stare at a computer all day at work, its nice to kick it old school once in a while. If I read a computer screen for a long time, I don't feel all that good - it's like a really mild nausea, or foginess. I also have this feeling I've been wasting my time (even if I was doing something productive). With print, it's just a more positive feeling. So I guess, umm, flame away? Last edited by molson : 03-25-2009 at 10:35 AM. |
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03-25-2009, 10:36 AM | #1005 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: May 2002
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I always found things like a big reference book (Baseball Prospectus Annual) to be superior for reading on the shitter anyway.
Like JimGA said, I'd rather read today's news than yesterday's history. |
03-25-2009, 10:39 AM | #1006 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Quote:
I have the MAD Magazine Bathroom Companion on the top of my throne. Been reading that thing a few pages at a time for 2 years now. I'm about 2/3 of the way through that monster. |
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03-25-2009, 10:40 AM | #1007 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
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Quote:
I really just found the labyrinth of rules around the reconciliation process to be fascinating. It makes sense that filibustering was traded for strict time limits, but I had never heard that before.
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03-25-2009, 11:14 AM | #1008 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
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Oh fuck:
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03-25-2009, 11:16 AM | #1009 |
General Manager
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Mountains
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That's definitely CHANGE
I think when it's all said and done, the tax on the "rich" will need to be far greater the the mild one talked about here, and the "rich" will include anyone with a job. The spending puts us halfway to socialism, we just need to finish the second half and appropriate more private property. Last edited by molson : 03-25-2009 at 11:33 AM. |
03-25-2009, 11:33 AM | #1010 |
Head Coach
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Location: Colorado
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03-25-2009, 11:44 AM | #1011 |
Pro Rookie
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Can someone more educated that me answer Bucc's question? Is there a plan to deal with a deficits that large? To my economically-uneducated mind it seems like a terrible idea.
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03-25-2009, 11:45 AM | #1012 |
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I really don't have problem with 09-11 as that's the price we pay for having a structural deficit before the need for a stimulus. After that, though, things need to change.
edit: I'd also be curious what's driving that. My guess is that it has far less to do with new spending and much more to do with rising Medicare/Medicaid expense and a reduction in the FICA tax surplus that gets sucked into the general budget.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers Last edited by JPhillips : 03-25-2009 at 11:46 AM. |
03-25-2009, 12:03 PM | #1013 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
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Good Frontline last night on all this. They argued that the Bush combo of new entitlements and lower taxes contributed most to this. which, of course, obama is also trying to do.
makes sense, how can the government create new huge entilements (prescription drugs,etc) and lower taxes and not be in serious trouble? not sure which would be harder to do: raise taxes or end/curb entitlements. i would imagine the political power of the new and soon to be retired boomers will prevent cutting entitlements. Favorite line from last night came from Judd Gregg Ranking Member, Senate Budget Committee (R-N.H.): We are facing a financial catastrophe of inordinate proportions, because we have on the books obligations which exceed the net worth of the American public. In other words, there is $66 trillion of debt out there, and we don't know how we're going to pay for it. ... The net worth of the United States is $44 trillion, so ... we're essentially bankrupt as a country even though we don't admit to it. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...emes/debt.html Last edited by AENeuman : 03-25-2009 at 12:07 PM. |
03-25-2009, 12:42 PM | #1014 | |
Hall Of Famer
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Quote:
All the usual Dutch crap aside, anyone with numbers on what percentage of wealth is inherited? Also, on what percentage of the previous generation's top 2, 5, or 10 percent has kids who are also in the next generation's top 2/5/10? I'd suggest there's a really strong correlation between where you start out and where you end up. SI
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03-25-2009, 12:44 PM | #1015 | |
Hall Of Famer
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Agreed- until something gets done with health care, that bar is going to keep going up. And by "something gets done"- I'm not saying the government gets out of the health care business, they strip it back to bare bones, or completely take it over- but that's where those bars come from. SI
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Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!" |
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03-25-2009, 12:50 PM | #1016 |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Europe certainly is interesting:
EU president: U.S. economic plan a 'way to hell' - CNN.com http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...ank-of-england |
03-25-2009, 12:56 PM | #1017 |
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But that really is insane debt there. I can understand that in the long run we need to do something about health care, especially with the boomers coming of age. I'm not sure if this is the absolute best time for that. Bush already fucked things up and we see that in a craptastic economy and $400 billion in debt. I can accept more debt to get us out, but THAT much? And fixing health care and all the other stuff at the same time... whoa, whoa, whoa...
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03-25-2009, 12:57 PM | #1018 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
Problem is, nearly half of Americans pay no income tax once credits and deductions kick in. In fact, they could even get more money back than they paid into the system the previous tax year. We have a income system in which half of the country pays to take care of the other half (and give them some money back on top of it). Last edited by Galaxy : 03-25-2009 at 12:58 PM. |
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03-25-2009, 01:00 PM | #1019 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Quote:
No, I mean that's my point - I don't have a solution about how to fix it but realistically, that growth from 2012 thru 2020 is almost exclusively the growth of health care costs in the government (medicare/medicaid). Basically, if we have the same plans and policies as are in place now, that's what the government will owe. SI
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Houston Hippopotami, III.3: 20th Anniversary Thread - All former HT players are encouraged to check it out! Janos: "Only America could produce an imbecile of your caliber!" Freakazoid: "That's because we make lots of things better than other people!" Last edited by sterlingice : 03-25-2009 at 01:01 PM. |
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03-25-2009, 01:04 PM | #1020 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Quote:
Health care scacres me for a few reasons: 1) A huge aging baby boomer population, which is huge, that will be going on Medicare and state health care plans in which the costs for senior citizens will be out-of-this-world. A smaller, less wealthy working generation that will have to cover these costs. 2) I keep hearing about spending x dollars on health care. What I don't I hear is any changes to keep costs down. What about malpractice protection (which should lower the insurance costs for doctors)? What about cost-to-benefit management (should patients, such as those on Medicaid and such, be allowed to demand and want all the lastest, most expensive treatments if other alternatives exist? Also should we extend the life of an elderly person if it will give them an extra six months or so at the cost it would require?). 3) What about illegal immigrants? I don't think you can truly "fix" health care costs unless we get realistic about the costs that are involved. Last edited by Galaxy : 03-25-2009 at 01:05 PM. |
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03-25-2009, 01:10 PM | #1021 | |
Coordinator
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Conyers GA
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Quote:
B.S. The "half of Americans pay no income tax" fraud | Jay Bookman | ajc.com |
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03-25-2009, 01:12 PM | #1022 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Decatur, GA
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Quote:
It's not solely health care though (though it accounts for quite a bit). There is also a tackling of energy policy, education policy, etc and various other spending (recall that the 2010 budget is about 10% more than 2009 budget and doesn't include the health care reform bill coming later this year). The other thing is that the CBO's running of the numbers conflict with the WH's (no surprise) and show that after the huge bump of the stimulus year, the debt will grow year after year after year, even though we've been hearing different from the WH.
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03-25-2009, 01:14 PM | #1023 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
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Quote:
These two things are huge. Cost-to-benefit management particularly. Why are we giving organ transplants to 75 year old people? Really? Let them kick off.
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Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
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03-25-2009, 01:16 PM | #1024 | |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
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Quote:
I assume you are referencing the Tax Foundation's report to get your data. That was a projection made last fall based on the proposed tax plans at that time from Obama and McCain. The true number is nowhere near half. From 1980 to 2000, the range has been between 18% and 25%, with a spike over the last 8 years to around 33%. Plus there has been quite a bit of disagreement over how the Tax Foundation arrived at their numbers. The only way someone can get back more than they put in is if they qualify for Earned Income Tax Credit or claim the Child Tax Credit. The Tax Foundation - Both Candidates' Tax Plans Will Reduce Millions of Taxpayers' Liability to Zero (or Less)
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 03-25-2009 at 01:22 PM. |
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03-25-2009, 01:19 PM | #1025 | |
General Manager
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Kansas City, MO
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A pretty scathing critique of the AIG boss and the government's overreaction regarding return of the money.
Op-Ed Contributor - Dear A.I.G., I Quit! - NYTimes.com Quote:
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03-25-2009, 01:20 PM | #1026 |
Death Herald
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Le stelle la notte sono grandi e luminose nel cuore profondo del Texas
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I think the eventual problem isn't going to be our ability to repay the debt, it will be the inability of finding enough free capital worldwide to buy the government's debt.
It would be like Bill Gates asking you for a loan. You know he's good for it, but you just simply don't have the cash available to loan him the money.
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Thinkin' of a master plan 'Cuz ain't nuthin' but sweat inside my hand So I dig into my pocket, all my money is spent So I dig deeper but still comin' up with lint Last edited by cartman : 03-25-2009 at 01:21 PM. |
03-25-2009, 01:24 PM | #1027 | |
Pro Starter
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Quote:
Wow so he donated 742k, he must be /so/ hurting...I hope he doesn't wind up in a tent city.
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03-25-2009, 01:27 PM | #1028 |
Hall Of Famer
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It's a question of fairness. I'd rather he get his $742k and still be there to fix the mess he didn't create than it be given back to the government.
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03-25-2009, 01:31 PM | #1029 |
General Manager
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03-25-2009, 01:36 PM | #1030 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Oct 2000
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Assuming he is correct in not having been involved in all the shennanigans. At $170billion and growing, I don't see how a handful of people could have been responsible.
However, I do agree with him that some folks are getting off scot-free. How you can threaten the global economy and not end up in jail is beyond me.
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03-25-2009, 02:31 PM | #1031 |
Coordinator
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03-25-2009, 02:39 PM | #1032 | ||||
Coordinator
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Location: Chicagoland
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Quote:
Frankly, I think the biggest misconception is that anyone's talking about changing tax rates to the point that someone grossing, say, $500,000+ will be taxed to the point that they net the same as someone grossing, say, $25,000. As I posted in the "Recession" thread: Quote:
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03-25-2009, 02:40 PM | #1033 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: North Carolina
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One of the problems is that we lack the courage/will/sense/whatever to really do the hard things. A more pure capitalism would let big banks fail, no matter what other sectors of the economy they took down. A more pure capitalism would let people die on the street if they could not afford medical care at the going rate.
We don't do that. We bailout certain companies and we have things like Medicare and laws saying that emergency rooms cannot turn people away. Reasonable people can disagree over whether this is good policy or not. But, we have to acknowledge that it IS the policy right now. Which, as I see it, leaves us with two choices. Either change the policy in an open and public way. Or, acknowledge that the taxpayer is providing these safety nets on the back end and try to keep costs down on the front end (i.e. by more regulations on companies that are "too big to fail" and by more government involvement on preventative care and things like that.) Right now, we have the worst of all worlds. The out-of-control spending of government run systems without the benefits of them. |
03-25-2009, 02:56 PM | #1034 |
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Come and see. |
03-25-2009, 02:59 PM | #1035 | |
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Quote:
I don't think that we as a country choose not to have our sick die on the streets to be a "lack of courage". Nor do I think saving our financial system from catastrophic failure to be "lacking sense". We don't do these things because we lack anything, we do them because they are what we want from our government. |
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03-25-2009, 03:02 PM | #1036 | |
Head Coach
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Quote:
I agree with you, actually. But I was trying to present the issue as evenhandedly as possible. |
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03-25-2009, 03:07 PM | #1037 | |
Hall Of Famer
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Quote:
Many of the wealthy in this country realize that when lower income Americans have a few extra bucks in their pockets, they'll potentially buy their products and services. The head of Starbucks doesn't make his money off billionaires, he makes them off of regular people who may get those credits and deductions. If they have an extra $500 a year in their pocket, maybe they buy an extra cup of coffee every week from. When the middle class in our country is strong, so is our economy. Our middle class has slowly been eroding away and seeing stresses on them that they've never had before. |
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03-25-2009, 03:22 PM | #1038 | |
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Quote:
And the EITC was designed to refund a portion of FICA taxes that were raised during the Reagan years. It's been expanded since, but the intent was a refund for taxes paid, just taxes with a different name.
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To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
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03-25-2009, 04:56 PM | #1039 | |
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Only if you're selling cheap shit or staples (i.e. milk, Twinkies, Doritos, etc) Or cigarettes & booze. Otherwise, taxing me to hand cash to the bottom feeders is nothing more than theft at gunpoint that I get jack shit out of.
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03-25-2009, 05:09 PM | #1040 | |
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You need to go find that island you were talking about. |
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03-25-2009, 05:12 PM | #1041 |
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Or take one last stand to try to take this country back from the thieves.
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"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
03-25-2009, 06:17 PM | #1042 |
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03-25-2009, 06:17 PM | #1043 | |
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Quote:
I agree with this sentiment and wonder if it couldnt be done by zip code etc.
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
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03-25-2009, 06:23 PM | #1044 | |
Coordinator
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Quote:
You sure it wasn't a bowling bowl
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
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03-25-2009, 07:14 PM | #1045 | |
College Starter
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We're not investing sh*t. Anyone who buys that rhetoric might as well drink the Koolaide right now. Anything the government takes over will ultimately be run in a less efficient way and will cost more than when it was privatized/decentralized. Last edited by SFL Cat : 03-25-2009 at 07:15 PM. |
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03-25-2009, 07:17 PM | #1046 |
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because privatization wherein the corporation is to look out for the public well being has been awesome so far, Hang on, "Hey Honey, where'd that Peanut butter come from!?"
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL |
03-25-2009, 07:17 PM | #1047 |
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03-25-2009, 08:09 PM | #1048 | |
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Where there is a profit INCENTIVE and COMPETITION for that profit, there is innovation and striving for excellence...or does that idea only apply to EA products? Last edited by SFL Cat : 03-25-2009 at 08:09 PM. |
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03-25-2009, 08:11 PM | #1049 |
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ROFLMAO!! good one.
AFAI been able to tell, corporations care about the bottom line 'usually' and very little about the 'common' good. This is truly borne fruit as of late. Could it be pendulous? Sure, but as of now I wouldnt trust most public companies and a few private companies with my life.
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Jacksonville-florida-homes-for-sale Putting a New Spin on Real Estate! ----------------------------------------------------------- Commissioner of the USFL USFL Last edited by Flasch186 : 03-25-2009 at 08:13 PM. |
03-25-2009, 09:01 PM | #1050 | |
SI Games
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Quote:
English history doesn't always show that to be the case at all, off the top of my head .. British Petrolium (BP) for instance was a huge profitable enterprise. This company is still successful now its been privatised. British Leyland was a successful and profitable nationalised car manufacturer in England, which was then largely bankrupted in the private sector (as the "Rover Group" - the remaining surviving brands are Jaguar and Land Rover now owned by an Indian company). British Telecom (BT) was a hugely profitable enterprize and helped ensure that Englands telecommunications setup was very modern and even post-privatisation the effective monopology BT have has helped ensure that broadband penetration etc. within England has been very widespread and efficient. Johnson Matthey this was a near bankrupt private company which was purchased by the UK goverment for the nominal sum of £1 and turned into a profitable enterprise once again (its main 'plant' is in the town I used to live in in England weirdly enough). I realise there is considerable negativity towards nationalisation of any companies within America, but it doesn't always mean things will be run badly or inefficiently and indeed many types of companies lend themselves to a national monopoly which is best undertaken outside of the private sector imho (otherwise you end up with 'artificial competition' such as the situation in England post privatisation of BT where BT is forced to let its telephone lines to other companies cheaply enough that they can use them and be profitable, but everyone relies upon the same infrastructure). The advantage of nationalisation as I see it is that companies then don't chase the short-term profit at the risk to the long term stability of the company. This is vital especially in areas of infrastructure such as banking, power, etc. where company bankruptcies could seriously affect other aspects of society. (and as has been shown during the current debacle if such companies are run privately then there needs to be strict regulation and supervision of them to ensure that their risk taking isn't excessive ...) |
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