Historical Nation Draft

[Abe Sargent]

11.3 Michelangelo, artist, Vatican, pre-20th

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

11.3 Michelangelo, artist, Vatican, pre-20th

I know they are their own state but if this counts then how come mine didn't?

[Abe Sargent]

Connections between Michelangelo and Vatican:

1. Michel designed the dome to St. Peter's Basillica, generally considered his greatest architectural work, which revolutionized classical architecture

2. Many consider Pieta to be his 2nd best statue after David. Pieta is in the Vatican.

3. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is considered to be one of the greatest works of the era, and another of his signature works. It was done by Michelangelo

4. Another fresco on the wall of the Chapel was done by Michelanglo.

5. He spent well over ten years of his life working in the Vatican on these various projects.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Surtt

10.11 Ferdinand Magellan, Navy Chief, Portugal, Pre-20

I thought about him, but not sure how well he would do in warfare.

[larrymcg421]

Vatican is independent. Scotland is part of the UK.

This pick was approved in advance. It was a close call, but the connection was strong enough, because the work is so identifiable with the country. It does not mean that any artist could be picked for a work they did in another country.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

Connections between Michelangelo and Vatican:

1. Michel designed the dome to St. Peter's Basillica, generally considered his greatest architectural work, which revolutionized classical architecture

2. Many consider Pieta to be his 2nd best statue after David. Pieta is in the Vatican.

3. The ceiling of the Sistine Chapel is considered to be one of the greatest works of the era, and another of his signature works. It was done by Michelangelo

4. Another fresco on the wall of the Chapel was done by Michelanglo.

5. He spent well over ten years of his life working in the Vatican on these various projects.

It is in Italy.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Noop

It is in Italy.

No, they are not. The Vatican is its own country. All of these are in the Vatican.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

Vatican is independent. Scotland is part of the UK.

This pick was approved in advance. It was a close call, but the connection was strong enough, because the work is so identifiable with the country. It does not mean that any artist could be picked for a work they did in another country.

Ok someone picked Puetro Rico why aren't they allowed to pick that person?

[Abe Sargent]

Because PR is a US territory. The Vatican is its own country.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

No, they are not. The Vatican is its own country. All of these are in the Vatican.

Look Abe I am not trying to crap on your pick or anything I just want to know why that is legal and others are not.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by Noop

Ok someone picked Puetro Rico why aren't they allowed to pick that person?

Because Puerto Rico isn't an indepandent nation. It's a US territory, not sure what the issue is.

[larrymcg421]

Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States. Vatican is completely sovereign.

[Lathum]

Vatican City - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[DaddyTorgo]

that's kinda sketchy. he was born in italy, and no doubt resided in italy while doing the work in vatican city.

i was a bit unsure as to whether this would be legal or not, he was definately on my list and i thought about it last round before thinking that it wouldn't be legal

[DaddyTorgo]

i'm not bitching, cuz there are a ton of good artists left out there - just saying i can see why someone would raise the question. since the connection is so tenuous does that mean we only are considering him for the work that exists within the walls of vatican city? idk

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

that's kinda sketchy. he was born in italy, and no doubt resided in italy while doing the work in vatican city.

i was a bit unsure as to whether this would be legal or not, he was definately on my list and i thought about it last round before thinking that it wouldn't be legal

His greatest fresco, greatest architectural accomplishments, 2nd greatest statue. Not much of a restriction.

Would you consider Simon Bolivar's work only limited to Venezuela and not to the other five countries that consider him a founding father? That's where he was picked after all.

[larrymcg421]

Like I said, it was a close call, and I only let it go because it was most important work and is so closely tied to the Vatican.

[Noop]

So if I wanted to pick Robert E. Lee as my Army Chief I could categorize him as being in the South oppose to America. The south broke away and had their own nation with their own president and governing system. If the Vatican is legal then the south is legal or perhaps the North.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Noop

So if I wanted to pick Robert E. Lee as my Army Chief I could categorize him as being in the South oppose to America. The south broke away and had their own nation with their own president and governing system. If the Vatican is legal then the south is legal or perhaps the North.

shut your mouth!!! i was considering doing just that!

but yes, under these rules I'd say so.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

i'm not bitching, cuz there are a ton of good artists left out there - just saying i can see why someone would raise the question. since the connection is so tenuous does that mean we only are considering him for the work that exists within the walls of vatican city? idk

Right. Just because I rule there is a strong enough connection for the pick to be made does not mean the voters can't hit you for a weak connection.

[Abe Sargent]

I honestly could find no evidence that he lived in Rome or the Vatican during his time working there. No one seems to care where he lived. But he worked in a place day in and day in for years and years. That is a connection.

[DaddyTorgo]

I wonder whether it was considered its own nation at the time though...if it wasn't that kinda dings you

[larrymcg421]

No, the south wouldn't count because we are using modern countries.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

No, the south wouldn't count because we are using modern countries.

That doesn't make sense because the South exists today just united with the north now but at the time it was a viable country. Look Larry I am not trying to give you a hard time because I know running this draft is hard but if this was known it would have changed the draft.

[DaddyTorgo]

just saying - i thought about making this pick last round, but then saw da vinci and said "nope, italy's already off the board" - i think trying to shoehorn him into the vatican would be like..hmm...i can think of some other pretty big "shoehorns", but they haven't been done yet so i won't discuss them

[Izulde]

The South doesn't exist as a separate country today.

The Vatican does.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

I wonder whether it was considered its own nation at the time though...if it wasn't that kinda dings you

First, of all, no it doesnt. India wasn;t its own state during Ghandi's day in the sun, it was part of the UK, but that doesn't matter, does it?



Second of all, I present to you The Papal States. Note the same country, the Papal States went out and then the Vatican came back, but both tuled by the Pope, so perhaps you consider that the same.

[Noop]

Vatican City was founded in 1929. Michelangelo was long dead.

[Abe Sargent]

It's like I threw a bomb in the thread!

[Danny]

Based on our rules and the logic we have used so far, Abe's pick should stand. It's also a great pick.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by Noop

That doesn't make sense because the South exists today just united with the north now but at the time it was a viable country. Look Larry I am not trying to give you a hard time because I know running this draft is hard but if this was known it would have changed the draft.

The rule is you have to pick a country that exists today. The south does not exist as a country. Robert E. Lee could have been chosen for United states just like William Wallace was chosen for the UK.

The Vatican city is completely sovereign country that exists today.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Izulde

The South doesn't exist as a separate country today.

The Vatican does.

This is the key point, we're going with the countries as they stand today.

[Noop]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

The rule is you have to pick a country that exists today. The south does not exist. Robert E. Lee could have been chosen for United states just like William Wallace was chosen for the UK.

The Vatican city is completely sovereign country that exists today.

Fine. I will not push the issue anymore. My apologizes to everyone.

[Abe Sargent]

I don't mind

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Noop

Fine. I will not push the issue anymore. My apologizes to everyone.

No need to apologize

[DaddyTorgo]

lol

hey i don't have a huge problem with it - i could have just as easily asked larry earlier about the pick. he's a good artist, but there are plenty of good ones left out there in various disciplines so i'm not like concerned or anything.

just seems like a real tenuous connection - here's a guy born in italy, no doubt lived in italy during the time (i'm sure he went back to his workshop in rome for stuff and slept in his own bed), and you're trying to in some sense work an end-run around the rules because a bunch of his pieces happen to exist within a tiny little country that is 100% enclosed by Italy, and is totally dependent on it for food, water, power, etc.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

lol

hey i don't have a huge problem with it - i could have just as easily asked larry earlier about the pick. he's a good artist, but there are plenty of good ones left out there in various disciplines so i'm not like concerned or anything.

just seems like a real tenuous connection - here's a guy born in italy, no doubt lived in italy during the time (i'm sure he went back to his workshop in rome for stuff and slept in his own bed), and you're trying to in some sense work an end-run around the rules because a bunch of his pieces happen to exist within a tiny little country that is 100% enclosed by Italy, and is totally dependent on it for food, water, power, etc.

Let me ask you this. If DaVinci had not been taken, and I had taken Michelangelo for Italy, would you consider these major works of his that were done for the Pope, in the Vatican, and still are in the Vatican. Would you consider them in your vote? I mean, they would not be in Italy, they would be in a different country. I doubt it. I bet you would consider them when voting for my team. It's not like I took him for Macedonia, where one minor painting is. These are his greatest and most well-known works, except for one statue (David). All but one of his greatest works were done there and are there today. It's not a loose connection

Okay, I;m done with the Michelangelo defense. Next up!

[DaddyTorgo]

nope - if da vinci hadn't been taken i would have considered them for italy. he's an italian painter, living in italy, sleeping in italy, speaking italian, etc. his works just happen to be within 4 walls that make them a separate country? Tenuous connection IMHO.

[Danny]

It's ok, Abe's pick for manmade structure was weak, so it balances out the Michaelangelo pick.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Danny

It's ok, Abe's pick for manmade structure was weak, so it balances out the Michaelangelo pick.

LOL

ZING!!!

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Danny

It's ok, Abe's pick for manmade structure was weak, so it balances out the Michaelangelo pick.

I love you too

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

I love you too

I couldn't find the heart emoticon

[Noop]

Am I the only one who finds Abe and Danny highly entertaining? You guys should do a podcast or something.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Noop

Am I the only one who finds Abe and Danny highly entertaining?

I am pretty sure everyone does

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Noop

Am I the only one who finds Abe and Danny highly entertaining? You guys should do a podcast or something.

As long as my name comes first.

[Abe Sargent]

I just want to take a second and go off script. This has been, without a doubt, one of my 5 most fun non-WW experiences on the board and I have loved every minutes of it. Thanks to larry, and thanks to each of you. I've had an downright blast.

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Abe Sargent

As long as my name comes first.

I was this close to posting a joke about you liking to come first, but I was able to stop myself!

[larrymcg421]

Thanks, Abe!

[Danny]

Originally Posted by Danny

I was this close to posting a joke about you liking to come first, but I was able to stop myself!

Unlike Abe! (sorry had to)

[Abe Sargent]

You can't reply to yourself and try to burn someone else. That's just dumb.