Obama versus McCain (versus the rest)

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by stevew

So, follow conservatives, or republicans, or whatever......

Is this as bad as we can do? Can we manage to lose even more seats in 2010? The party totally deserved the ass-whooping it's taking, hopefully some can disregard or downplay their social agendas enough to bring back the party of smaller government. At least the one I've supported in the past anyways.

Is it worth it to hand the country over to the Dems (essentially) for a decade or more if we come out with a stronger, new party? I want to break from the Republican Party--the religious conservative GOP, that is--and form a new Republican Party based on fiscal spending responsibilities, and get back to what I feel was always our strengths.

My ideal new party would be moderate to centrist on social values, would be absolutely against any further interference of religion in state affairs, and would focus on the original GOP ideal of less spending, less taxes. And frankly, the Christian right can go do whatever they want to with themselves.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Is it worth it to hand the country over to the Dems (essentially) for a decade or more if we come out with a stronger, new party? I want to break from the Republican Party--the religious conservative GOP, that is--and form a new Republican Party based on fiscal spending responsibilities, and get back to what I feel was always our strengths.

My ideal new party would be moderate to centrist on social values, would be absolutely against any further interference of religion in state affairs, and would focus on the original GOP ideal of less spending, less taxes. And frankly, the Christian right can go do whatever they want to with themselves.

ya know I could probably get behind that, depending on some of the social values

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

okay - i'm all for that too

Seriously, it really bothers me.

My family and I owned racing greyhounds for a number of years and the overwhelming majority of the kennels and trainers are good, hardworking people who know their stuff and really care about the dogs.

Are there one or two unscrupulous types? Yeah, but there are in any industry and they lose their licensing when they caught, as it should be.

[NoMyths]

I am thrilled that after so many years of historic tragedies and wrong decisions that we're finally witnessing such a hopeful turning point. Yes we can, America.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Unless JiMG is literally correct, I think Obama will be in good shape to have a successful presidency.

No, it actually means that Obama will be in good shape to do what he wants (so long as it doesn't break too far from the party line). That does not, however, necessarily mean it will be a successful presidency. It will make it even more important that he make good decisions, because there won't be much of a check on his policies.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Is it worth it to hand the country over to the Dems (essentially) for a decade or more if we come out with a stronger, new party? I want to break from the Republican Party--the religious conservative GOP, that is--and form a new Republican Party based on fiscal spending responsibilities, and get back to what I feel was always our strengths.

My ideal new party would be moderate to centrist on social values, would be absolutely against any further interference of religion in state affairs, and would focus on the original GOP ideal of less spending, less taxes. And frankly, the Christian right can go do whatever they want to with themselves.

That's what I'm hoping for. I'm not the most optimistic in the world - I think those left in the GOP base are in Jon's mold right now, the idea that "we're not socially conservative enough." I expect at least in the next two years we'll see a harder-right bent.

But I think by the election of 2012 there's at least a chance of seeing a "new, stronger party."

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Is it worth it to hand the country over to the Dems (essentially) for a decade or more if we come out with a stronger, new party? I want to break from the Republican Party--the religious conservative GOP, that is--and form a new Republican Party based on fiscal spending responsibilities, and get back to what I feel was always our strengths.

My ideal new party would be moderate to centrist on social values, would be absolutely against any further interference of religion in state affairs, and would focus on the original GOP ideal of less spending, less taxes. And frankly, the Christian right can go do whatever they want to with themselves.

That is what I hope for. I'd there wasn't much hope when it was McBama on the ticket. The country would be better off with a split executive and legislative branch, but I didn't want to vote McCain and wound up going Constitution Party. Hopefully Obama winning and there not being a split government will help the Republican party make gains if they do actually go to being a fiscal conservative party, while improving socially and with foreign policy. As it is I can't see supporting the Republican party as it stands right now though.

For Minnesota, hopefully Coleman will be able to hold on to the Senate seat with the slight lead he holds now. Not a fan of Coleman in the Senate and would have prefered Barkley, but Coleman hodling his seat will prevent a filibuster proom majority and electing Fraken would be an embaressment.

[stevew]

Right now, there's no place in the GOP for people like Jon that support abortion.

[sabotai]

Florida's Ban on Gay Marriage is at 62% "Yes" with 98% reporting. CNN still hasn't projected it to pass or fail, but hard to see how it will not pass at this point (if the numbers are accurate).

[Swaggs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

No, it actually means that Obama will be in good shape to do what he wants (so long as it doesn't break too far from the party line). That does not, however, necessarily mean it will be a successful presidency. It will make it even more important that he make good decisions, because there won't be much of a check on his policies.

Time will tell and to each their own, but I believe we, as a nation, have bottomed out and there is a lot of room for improvement. Therefore, even minor improvements will make Obama appear as if he is doing pretty well. Of course that involves making good decisions, but my opinion is that Obama will act more pragmatically and more humbly than his present detractors expect. As I earlier said, the bar has been set pretty damn low by folks that currently share JiMG's current feelings, so I feel like it will not take a dramatic feat (beyond avoiding the apocolypse) to win at least some of them over.

[ISiddiqui]

The interesting thing now is what happens with Liebermann? The Dems want to kick him out, but they could hit 60 if he still caucuses with them.

[Swaggs]

If Franken were to win his race over Coleman and Barkley, I wonder if that would be the first time in U.S. history that three men who have been U.S. Senators would have been in the same race.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

ya know I could probably get behind that, depending on some of the social values

To be honest, I'm not sure you would see a hard stand on any social issue except that it couldn't go too far to the left.

[SirFozzie]

Fiscally conservative, but socially moderate if not liberal? Yes please.

[DaddyTorgo]

i think there's a fairly large appetite for a party like that

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by Galaxy

The rest of the Western world must be pretty happy as well.

At last you guys did something we can applaud

[SirFozzie]

I have been accused of being an Obama/D sheep.. in this one thing, maybe there's some truth. I found this speech uplifting, with a call to action. I think a Chuchill quote fits here.

"Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning.""

Remarks of President-Elect Barack Obama—as prepared for delivery
Election Night
Tuesday, November 4th, 2008
Chicago, Illinois

If there is anyone out there who still doubts that America is a place where all things are possible; who still wonders if the dream of our founders is alive in our time; who still questions the power of our democracy, tonight is your answer.

It’s the answer told by lines that stretched around schools and churches in numbers this nation has never seen; by people who waited three hours and four hours, many for the very first time in their lives, because they believed that this time must be different; that their voice could be that difference.

It’s the answer spoken by young and old, rich and poor, Democrat and Republican, black, white, Latino, Asian, Native American, gay, straight, disabled and not disabled – Americans who sent a message to the world that we have never been a collection of Red States and Blue States: we are, and always will be, the United States of America.

It’s the answer that led those who have been told for so long by so many to be cynical, and fearful, and doubtful of what we can achieve to put their hands on the arc of history and bend it once more toward the hope of a better day.

It’s been a long time coming, but tonight, because of what we did on this day, in this election, at this defining moment, change has come to America.

I just received a very gracious call from Senator McCain. He fought long and hard in this campaign, and he’s fought even longer and harder for the country he loves. He has endured sacrifices for America that most of us cannot begin to imagine, and we are better off for the service rendered by this brave and selfless leader. I congratulate him and Governor Palin for all they have achieved, and I look forward to working with them to renew this nation’s promise in the months ahead.

I want to thank my partner in this journey, a man who campaigned from his heart and spoke for the men and women he grew up with on the streets of Scranton and rode with on that train home to Delaware, the Vice President-elect of the United States, Joe Biden.

I would not be standing here tonight without the unyielding support of my best friend for the last sixteen years, the rock of our family and the love of my life, our nation’s next First Lady, Michelle Obama. Sasha and Malia, I love you both so much, and you have earned the new puppy that’s coming with us to the White House. And while she’s no longer with us, I know my grandmother is watching, along with the family that made me who I am. I miss them tonight, and know that my debt to them is beyond measure.

To my campaign manager David Plouffe, my chief strategist David Axelrod, and the best campaign team ever assembled in the history of politics – you made this happen, and I am forever grateful for what you’ve sacrificed to get it done.

But above all, I will never forget who this victory truly belongs to – it belongs to you.

I was never the likeliest candidate for this office. We didn’t start with much money or many endorsements. Our campaign was not hatched in the halls of Washington – it began in the backyards of Des Moines and the living rooms of Concord and the front porches of Charleston.

It was built by working men and women who dug into what little savings they had to give five dollars and ten dollars and twenty dollars to this cause. It grew strength from the young people who rejected the myth of their generation’s apathy; who left their homes and their families for jobs that offered little pay and less sleep; from the not-so-young people who braved the bitter cold and scorching heat to knock on the doors of perfect strangers; from the millions of Americans who volunteered, and organized, and proved that more than two centuries later, a government of the people, by the people and for the people has not perished from this Earth. This is your victory.

I know you didn’t do this just to win an election and I know you didn’t do it for me. You did it because you understand the enormity of the task that lies ahead. For even as we celebrate tonight, we know the challenges that tomorrow will bring are the greatest of our lifetime – two wars, a planet in peril, the worst financial crisis in a century. Even as we stand here tonight, we know there are brave Americans waking up in the deserts of Iraq and the mountains of Afghanistan to risk their lives for us. There are mothers and fathers who will lie awake after their children fall asleep and wonder how they’ll make the mortgage, or pay their doctor’s bills, or save enough for college. There is new energy to harness and new jobs to be created; new schools to build and threats to meet and alliances to repair.

The road ahead will be long. Our climb will be steep. We may not get there in one year or even one term, but America – I have never been more hopeful than I am tonight that we will get there. I promise you – we as a people will get there.

There will be setbacks and false starts. There are many who won’t agree with every decision or policy I make as President, and we know that government can’t solve every problem. But I will always be honest with you about the challenges we face. I will listen to you, especially when we disagree. And above all, I will ask you join in the work of remaking this nation the only way it’s been done in America for two-hundred and twenty-one years – block by block, brick by brick, calloused hand by calloused hand.

What began twenty-one months ago in the depths of winter must not end on this autumn night. This victory alone is not the change we seek – it is only the chance for us to make that change. And that cannot happen if we go back to the way things were. It cannot happen without you.

So let us summon a new spirit of patriotism; of service and responsibility where each of us resolves to pitch in and work harder and look after not only ourselves, but each other. Let us remember that if this financial crisis taught us anything, it’s that we cannot have a thriving Wall Street while Main Street suffers – in this country, we rise or fall as one nation; as one people.

Let us resist the temptation to fall back on the same partisanship and pettiness and immaturity that has poisoned our politics for so long. Let us remember that it was a man from this state who first carried the banner of the Republican Party to the White House – a party founded on the values of self-reliance, individual liberty, and national unity. Those are values we all share, and while the Democratic Party has won a great victory tonight, we do so with a measure of humility and determination to heal the divides that have held back our progress. As Lincoln said to a nation far more divided than ours, "We are not enemies, but friends...though passion may have strained it must not break our bonds of affection." And to those Americans whose support I have yet to earn – I may not have won your vote, but I hear your voices, I need your help, and I will be your President too.

And to all those watching tonight from beyond our shores, from parliaments and palaces to those who are huddled around radios in the forgotten corners of our world – our stories are singular, but our destiny is shared, and a new dawn of American leadership is at hand. To those who would tear this world down – we will defeat you. To those who seek peace and security – we support you. And to all those who have wondered if America’s beacon still burns as bright – tonight we proved once more that the true strength of our nation comes not from our the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals: democracy, liberty, opportunity, and unyielding hope.

For that is the true genius of America – that America can change. Our union can be perfected. And what we have already achieved gives us hope for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

This election had many firsts and many stories that will be told for generations. But one that’s on my mind tonight is about a woman who cast her ballot in Atlanta. She’s a lot like the millions of others who stood in line to make their voice heard in this election except for one thing – Ann Nixon Cooper is 106 years old.

She was born just a generation past slavery; a time when there were no cars on the road or planes in the sky; when someone like her couldn’t vote for two reasons – because she was a woman and because of the color of her skin.

And tonight, I think about all that she’s seen throughout her century in America – the heartache and the hope; the struggle and the progress; the times we were told that we can’t, and the people who pressed on with that American creed: Yes we can.

At a time when women’s voices were silenced and their hopes dismissed, she lived to see them stand up and speak out and reach for the ballot. Yes we can.

When there was despair in the dust bowl and depression across the land, she saw a nation conquer fear itself with a New Deal, new jobs and a new sense of common purpose. Yes we can.

When the bombs fell on our harbor and tyranny threatened the world, she was there to witness a generation rise to greatness and a democracy was saved. Yes we can.

She was there for the buses in Montgomery, the hoses in Birmingham, a bridge in Selma, and a preacher from Atlanta who told a people that "We Shall Overcome." Yes we can.

A man touched down on the moon, a wall came down in Berlin, a world was connected by our own science and imagination. And this year, in this election, she touched her finger to a screen, and cast her vote, because after 106 years in America, through the best of times and the darkest of hours, she knows how America can change. Yes we can.

America, we have come so far. We have seen so much. But there is so much more to do. So tonight, let us ask ourselves – if our children should live to see the next century; if my daughters should be so lucky to live as long as Ann Nixon Cooper, what change will they see? What progress will we have made?

This is our chance to answer that call. This is our moment. This is our time – to put our people back to work and open doors of opportunity for our kids; to restore prosperity and promote the cause of peace; to reclaim the American Dream and reaffirm that fundamental truth – that out of many, we are one; that while we breathe, we hope, and where we are met with cynicism, and doubt, and those who tell us that we can’t, we will respond with that timeless creed that sums up the spirit of a people:

Yes We Can. Thank you, God bless you, and may God Bless the United States of America.

[fantom1979]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

My ideal new party would be moderate to centrist on social values, would be absolutely against any further interference of religion in state affairs, and would focus on the original GOP ideal of less spending, less taxes. And frankly, the Christian right can go do whatever they want to with themselves.

If the Republican party went this way, I would be on board (I voted for Obama).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

But I think by the election of 2012 there's at least a chance of seeing a "new, stronger party."... that has no chance of winning a national election

Fixed that for you.

Unhappy though it may make both segments of the Reagan-through-Bush R voters, our fates as far as control of the White House are concerned are joined at the hip. And the ability of the two to at least cooperate are linked with regard to controlling Congress. Me, you, and everybody else can wish that weren't true until we're blue in the face (or should that be red in the face?) but wishing doesn't make it so.

Want to remake the GOP into a fiscally conserative/socially moderate party, even at the expense of having a shot at winning nationally? That's cool by me, I understand the sentiment believe me. But don't kid yourself about the reality of what happens if that remodel takes place. At best you end up with the D's dominant nationally and either the social conservatives as a third party ala '68 or '48 or leave them in control of the GOP and join forces with the Lib. and create what amount to a pair of third parties.

[molson]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I have been accused of being an Obama/D sheep.. in this one thing, maybe there's some truth. I found this speech uplifting, with a call to action. I think a Chuchill quote fits here.

Inspiring Americans isn't at all irrelevant and it's a hugely important thing and a beneficial part of Obama's victory.

But it's still just a speech. I'm so tired of speeches. Looking forward to the actions.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Lathum

how amazing must it be for the older generation of black people to see this.

Despite what side you fall on, we are witnessing a form of history tonight that comes along once in a lifetime.

Yeah, I didn't realize how much this would even affect me. I know I mentioned it before, but both of my parents are from Birmingham, Alabama. And while I am not sure how both parents voted (since they have been independent for decades), I could already tell from talking to them what this moment meant for them regardless of which candidate they liked. The fact that he was even a consideration is a huge leap from my parent's generation.

And it hit me particularly harder than I thought thinking that I am only one generation away from Civil Rights movement in which most people didn't even believe they could even be president of a company, let alone a country. So, in other words, I am happy for them to witness this.

[stevew]

/rockin chair

You hear Liddy Dole is 86?

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Fixed that for you.

Unhappy though it may make both segments of the Reagan-through-Bush R voters, our fates as far as control of the White House are concerned are joined at the hip. And the ability of the two to at least cooperate are linked with regard to controlling Congress. Me, you, and everybody else can wish that weren't true until we're blue in the face (or should that be red in the face?) but wishing doesn't make it so.

Want to remake the GOP into a fiscally conserative/socially moderate party, even at the expense of having a shot at winning nationally? That's cool by me, I understand the sentiment believe me. But don't kid yourself about the reality of what happens if that remodel takes place. At best you end up with the D's dominant nationally and either the social conservatives as a third party ala '68 or '48 or leave them in control of the GOP and join forces with the Lib. and create what amount to a pair of third parties.

you speak in certainties and absolutes where to be blunt, you do not have the expertise to do so.

[Chief Rum]

The GNP is here. Enter this thread and contribute if interested. Maybe it;s just a bunch of us talking. Maybe there are threads and discussions like it across America. Whatever. At least we have a place to make ourselves heard, even if only we ourselves only hear it.

http://operationsports.com/fofc/showthread.php?t=68795

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

you speak in certainties and absolutes where to be blunt, you do not have the expertise to do so.

DT, I live here.

If I know one thing beyond how night follows day, even in the often unpredictable local political environment (i.e. only a fool tries to predict a county or city level race here), it's what will or won't play here from a national politician.

It'd take a blind man not to see the outcome of the "refocusing of the GOP" that we kick the tires on here from time to time. Good Lord, look at the Senate race here. Martin seemed to do little more than scream "Look, there's Saxby" and "I'm a liberal, love me, touch me, hold me" and he pulled just under half the vote. You split the 51ish% Chambliss got & you're handing the Dems the seat. And you will split them without an acceptable message to both the fiscal & social conservatives. And "acceptable" means at least noticeable nods to both at the very least.

edit to add: Let's be real. I love my money. I mean looooove it. And I take an extremely dim view of anybody dipping their hand in my pocket to take it without damned good reason, and by that I mean a reason I agree with not just one they think is a good reason. And I really really despise seeing money thrown toward crap I have no use for at best & utter contempt for at worst. But there are some things that I hold even more dear than my bank account, so we're talking about some really high priority to top the fiscal stuff. But if you hand me a candidate who does precisely everything right with my money but doesn't share my values on social issues to a high extent, I can't go with him. I'll find another candidate or I'll stay away from voting in the race completely, but unless you're running against the next anti-Christ, you can't buy me strictly by getting just the money stuff right. Since I don't believe you're going to swing any Obama Dems your way any time soon (since they think they've found their Messiah already), how exactly do you think you're going to win an election without me? And I'm easier than most since I'm already neutralized on the biggest social hot button of them all. What on earth chance do you have with Randy & Rhonda Righttolife if you cross them trying to go moderate?

[JetsIn06]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Yeah, some pretty horrible crap is still going down tonight.

Edit: At least the Colorado and South Dakota abortion ones are being defeated.

As much as I'm pro-choice, I can at least *understand* why people aren't. But not letting unmarried couples (meaning gays and lesbians basically) adopt is disgusting. Now they are fucking with a child's life who may end up in a foster home instead of a loving home. Fuck them.

[Neon_Chaos]

Obama's victory speech was one of the best I've ever heard. That was amazing.

[AENeuman]

Anyone hear nader of fox? he asked if obama will be uncle sam or uncle tom. way to be that guy.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

DT, I live here.

If I know one thing beyond how night follows day, even in the often unpredictable local political environment (i.e. only a fool tries to predict a county or city level race here), it's what will or won't play here from a national politician.

It'd take a blind man not to see the outcome of the "refocusing of the GOP" that we kick the tires on here from time to time. Good Lord, look at the Senate race here. Martin seemed to do little more than scream "Look, there's Saxby" and "I'm a liberal, love me, touch me, hold me" and he pulled just under half the vote. You split the 51ish% Chambliss got & you're handing the Dems the seat. And you will split them without an acceptable message to both the fiscal & social conservatives. And "acceptable" means at least noticeable nods to both at the very least.

but what you fail to account for is the % of those that in your example voted for Martin who would have voted for that "new GOP" candidate

[JetsIn06]

Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos

Obama's victory speech was one of the best I've ever heard. That was amazing.

[sabotai]

CNN hasn't projected it, but some of the local Florida news websites have started to call the Florida Gay Marriage Ban as passed.

Florida and Arizona down, California to go.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Florida and Arizona down, California to go.

I'm a little lost here, getting bogged down in looking at the future (or what's left of it).

What did Arizona end up doing (I don't even think I realized they had a gay marriage mention of some sort on the ballot).
And last I saw here on Cali I ended up confused as to which way Prop 8 was going (the whole Yes means No, No means Yes thing).

[sabotai]

Arizona defined marriage as 1 man 1 woman. Not sure about civil unions or domestic partnerships. I didn't know they had a ballot measure for it either until tonight.

Florida too defined marriage as 1 man 1 woman. Not sure again on the implications of civil unions or domestic partnerships.

Nor do I know if marriages between gay couples have been going on in those states like they have been in California.

And in California, yes means to ban gay marriage. Only 32% reported so far there and it's at 53%.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

*misunderstanding*

What?

[Lathum]

huh?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Arizona defined marriage as 1 man 1 woman. Not sure about civil unions or domestic partnerships. I didn't know they had a ballot measure for it either until tonight. Florida too defined marriage as 1 man 1 woman. Not sure again on the implications of civil unions or domestic partnerships. ... And in California, yes means to ban gay marriage. Only 32% reported so far there and it's at 53%.

Thanks Sab, hard to keep track of everything simultaneously. I'd guess that the Cali one (since someone said SF was still outstanding) will be a tomorrow outcome at the earliest since absentees sound likely to come into play.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sabotai

What?

misunderstood and thought sab was for banning gay marriage - have deleted my incensed response and this elaboration of it

[sabotai]

*scratches head*

What the hell gave you the idea I was for banning gay marriage?

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by sabotai

*scratches head*

What the hell gave you the idea I was for banning gay marriage?

As a fly on the wall, I'm guessing it was the "one to go" comment (that was you, right?). Mostly likely misinterpreted as you commenting positively on the outcomes instead of neutrally or negatively. I'm thinking you just meant it as mostly a numbering of the outcomes still in doubt rather than any editorial comment.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by sabotai

*scratches head*

What the hell gave you the idea I was for banning gay marriage?

I dunno, the "Florida and Arizona down, California to go" comment.

Seemed like you were saying "two down, one to go" which is generally a positive-type comment.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

As a fly on the wall, I'm guessing it was the "one to go" comment (that was you, right?). Mostly likely misinterpreted as you commenting positively on the outcomes instead of neutrally or negatively. I'm thinking you just meant it as mostly a numbering of the outcomes still in doubt rather than any editorial comment.

yep. exactly. i shall retract and edit.

deleted and edited sabotai.

[Mustang]

Originally Posted by sabotai

*scratches head*

What the hell gave you the idea I was for banning gay marriage?

Because you said Az/Fl down, California to go.

Guess he took that to mean you were satisfied with the results in Arizona and Florida and just meant you needed California now.

[JonInMiddleGA]

snip from My Way News - Exit poll: Obama built win on women, minorities

Four in 10 voters overall said Palin was an important factor in deciding whom to vote for, and this group was about as likely to vote for Obama as McCain. But nine in 10 Republicans calling Palin's selection important were voting for McCain.

I don't think there's a way to parse this out accurately but I'd love to know how many of the 9/10ths would have bothered to vote for McCain absent Palin (or equivalent).

[DaddyTorgo]

okay everyone - clearly i misunderstood sabotai. Case closed, he's not a target of my vitriol clearly. And I'm going to sleep.

[Mustang]

People are sure quick to unleash the Bigot or Racist tag around here sometimes. When in doubt, I at least give someone the benefit of the doubt and ask them to clarify rather than lay the hammer down...

[Neon_Chaos]

DT and JimGA just agreed on something!

*head explodes*

[sabotai]

Ah, ok. Yes, I just meant two decided, one still not.

I am completely against banning gay marriage (just for future reference. )

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

snip from My Way News - Exit poll: Obama built win on women, minorities



I don't think there's a way to parse this out accurately but I'd love to know how many of the 9/10ths would have bothered to vote for McCain absent Palin (or equivalent).

I think I'm finally seeing why you're saying that Palin was important for the Republican base. I take it that McCain and another moderate would have never been able to encourage the base to even go out and bother to vote?

[sabotai]

One more projected ballot measure. Michigan projected to pass it's amendment to allow stem cell research.

[timmynausea]

Originally Posted by sabotai

One more projected ballot measure. Michigan projected to pass it's amendment to allow stem cell research.

Yep. Michigan passed stem cell research and medical marijuana. I was a little surprised by both, though I've heard that the anti-medical marijuana people really fumbled their campaign and didn't mount any advertising effort until it was too late, so that one wasn't even close.