The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

not altered

[Warhammer]

Hold up a minute, we’re upset that at a meeting that people were upset was not going to happen, now we’re upset it is happening. Them we are breathless because Trump was leaving early. BUT, it turns out that is alright because Kim Jong Un was leaving first. Now, we’re upset because the flags were all at the same level.

Do I have this right?

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by Warhammer

Hold up a minute, we’re upset that at a meeting that people were upset was not going to happen, now we’re upset it is happening. Them we are breathless because Trump was leaving early. BUT, it turns out that is alright because Kim Jong Un was leaving first. Now, we’re upset because the flags were all at the same level.

Do I have this right?

Welcome to America

[NobodyHere]

Larry Kudlow suffers heart attack, Trump tweets from North Korea summit in Singapore - CBS News

[cuervo72]

He's only 70?

[cuervo72]

I wonder if the only thing that comes out of this is "this is just the first step." Then Trump and Kim plan a whole mess of future Singapore vacations.

[BBT]

McConnell's stalling worked. Vote went down expected ideological lines.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/sup...m_npd_nn_tw_ma

All states have procedures for removing from their registration lists the names of people who have moved and are therefore no longer eligible to vote in a given precinct. The issue before the Supreme Court was whether a voter's decision to sit out a certain number of elections could be the trigger for that effort.

Justice Samuel Alito, who wrote the majority opinion, said the court's job was not "to decide whether Ohio’s supplemental process is the ideal method for keeping its voting rolls up to date. The only question before us is whether it violates federal law. It does not."

Ohio election officials send notices to anyone who fails to cast a ballot during a two-year period. People who do not respond and don't vote over the next four years, including in two more federal elections, are dropped from the list of registered voters.

That's what happened to Larry Harmon, a U.S. Navy veteran and software engineer who was turned away from his polling place in 2015 when he found out he wasn't on the list. "I looked and I looked. And I saw my son's name, but I didn't see my name." So he joined a civil rights group in suing the state. Ohio said he was sent a notice, but he said he didn't get it.

[digamma]

Fascinating to watch coverage from the UK. It's been almost wall to wall coverage of the summit this morning, with only partial breaks for local news.

I think this is about what we expected. Lots of photo ops for Un. No real policy.

It reminds me of when Ric Flair would do the job to a local territorial guy and then win the title back a few days later. Bizarre times for sure.

[mckerney]

This is the first time the US acknowledges what would be a huge concession to North Korea, stopping the annual military exercises that the US has long regarded as defensive and NOT provocative. Trump just went with the North Korea line and called them provocative #breaking

— Elise Hu (@elisewho) June 12, 2018

"We've done exercises for a long period of time, I call 'em war games. They're tremendously expensive ... South Korea contributes but not 100 percent ... We fly in bombers from Guam. Very expensive. And I think it's very provocative..." -Trump

— Elise Hu (@elisewho) June 12, 2018

"We've done exercises for a long period of time, I call 'em war games. They're tremendously expensive ... South Korea contributes but not 100 percent ... We fly in bombers from Guam. Very expensive. And I think it's very provocative..." -Trump

— Elise Hu (@elisewho) June 12, 2018

[Edward64]

I think its good we are stopping the wargames with SK. It's a concession but the wargames are a provocation (e.g. imagine something like that happening on our borders or a NATO ally's border) and its a significant but easy card to play. The wargames can be restarted if truly no/little progress is made.

So crazy kid has had a successful charm initiative so far. Great for his ego and maybe encourage him to be less crazy and more neighborly. Has suspended nuclear testing (which I think is easily verifiable). And may get a trip to US.

Trump has conceded some US higher ground points being on equal stage with the crazy kid, effectively said we can do business with him, and we've stopped wargames with SK. Not sure but suspect Trump's favorability has gone up in SEA also, so good for his ego.

All this gets us to a point of (hopefully) further substantive discussions.

I personally want the NK situation "taken care of" one way or another. Trump is probably the person to make this happen and he has 2.5 years. Definitely still a die roll but worth the risk IMO.

[BBT]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think its good we are stopping the wargames with SK. It's a concession but the wargames are a provocation (e.g. imagine something like that happening on our borders or a NATO ally's border) and its a significant but easy card to play. The wargames can be restarted if truly no/little progress is made.

You mean like Russia does all the time on numerous ally borders.

Originally Posted by Edward64

So crazy kid has had a successful charm initiative so far. Great for his ego and maybe encourage him to be less crazy and more neighborly. Has suspended nuclear testing (which I think is easily verifiable). And may get a trip to US.

He suspended it because the mountain they were using to test collapsed. It's why he's at the table right now. We are/were in a complete position of strength. There was no reason to concede anything at this point.

Originally Posted by Edward64

Trump has conceded some US higher ground points being on equal stage with the crazy kid, effectively said we can do business with him, and we've stopped wargames with SK. Not sure but suspect Trump's favorability has gone up in SEA also, so good for his ego.

All this gets us to a point of (hopefully) further substantive discussions.

But, why are we conceding. They have millions of people in death camps and their populace has no freedoms at all. This isn't just a nuclear discussion.

But, as far as the nuclear discussion goes, we've just given North Korea time to get their program back in order...and we aren't going to have troops ready just in case "crazy kid" decides that he wants to reunify Korea during that time.

We've now legitimized North Korea while completely disregarding our allies only days before. Funny world we're living in where the dictators are the ones we talk nice to and make concessions for and those that have tried to protect freedoms in the past are now pushed to the side and punished.

Originally Posted by Edward64

I personally want the NK situation "taken care of" one way or another. Trump is probably the person to make this happen and he has 2.5 years. Definitely still a die roll but worth the risk IMO.

I get this want, but just giving ground with no solid strategy is probably not a good idea. As you said, Trump has 2.5 years; what happens then? What happens if no real ground has been made and a new president comes in and decides to ramp up rhetoric again because North Korea is making no progress on what they've said they'd do? What happens if the next president decides to break any agreement that's been made because they don't feel like honoring it anymore?

You know...kind of like Iran. Speaking of which, why isn't Trump meeting with the Iranian President or Supreme Leader?

[bronconick]

Months or years of work in an agreement with Iran, and Trump burns it down because the black man was involved. 5 hours of talking with NK, and he bends over for vague promises so he can claim victory.



At least he didn't say "Peace in our time", I guess.

[JPhillips]

Sounds like the South Koreans weren't consulted or told in advance about the suspension of military exercises.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BBT

You mean like Russia does all the time on numerous ally borders.

No doubt he has a hard-on for Putin. Best guess is he's got lots of business dealings with the Russian oligarchs and he's thinking ahead post-presidency. Nevertheless, my point is that it is provocative. I think this is a legit beef from the crazy kid.

Originally Posted by BBT

He suspended it because the mountain they were using to test collapsed. It's why he's at the table right now. We are/were in a complete position of strength. There was no reason to concede anything at this point.

But, why are we conceding. They have millions of people in death camps and their populace has no freedoms at all. This isn't just a nuclear discussion.

I think the reason is to change the dynamics and get the crazy kid to the table. TBH, it starts with Nukes and goes from there. NK survived a much worse famine in the 2000's and came back stronger.

Originally Posted by BBT

But, as far as the nuclear discussion goes, we've just given North Korea time to get their program back in order...and we aren't going to have troops ready just in case "crazy kid" decides that he wants to reunify Korea during that time.

Yes, real concern that crazy kid is stringing Trump along.

Do you think one or two wargames will degrade our ability that much to defend SK that much? I'm all for us withdrawing our troops way south or close by and letting SK ramp up their military, they have the means to do it now.

Originally Posted by BBT

We've now legitimized North Korea while completely disregarding our allies only days before. Funny world we're living in where the dictators are the ones we talk nice to and make concessions for and those that have tried to protect freedoms in the past are now pushed to the side and punished.

Yes, you are right. All I can say is this is a special case with nukes. No excuse on mistreating Canada.

Originally Posted by BBT

I get this want, but just giving ground with no solid strategy is probably not a good idea. As you said, Trump has 2.5 years; what happens then? What happens if no real ground has been made and a new president comes in and decides to ramp up rhetoric again because North Korea is making no progress on what they've said they'd do? What happens if the next president decides to break any agreement that's been made because they don't feel like honoring it anymore?

What else has worked? He is trying to change the dynamics.

Has the old Clinton-Bush-Obama or Hillary thing worked. I think deep down we know high likelihood that Hillary would have continued the same path and nothing would get done other than status quo.

I guess status quo is an option but not one I prefer.

Originally Posted by BBT

You know...kind of like Iran. Speaking of which, why isn't Trump meeting with the Iranian President or Supreme Leader?

No excuses here. We know its because its part of the brown skin's guy legacy and probably because of the Israeli connection and votes.

[panerd]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Months or years of work in an agreement with Iran, and Trump burns it down because the black man was involved. 5 hours of talking with NK, and he bends over for vague promises so he can claim victory.



At least he didn't say "Peace in our time", I guess.

You know Trump may have actually accomplished something when we fall back on the race card.

Seriously why isn't more peace (regardless of the leader) a good thing? I'm talking both here and with Iran and with Russia... FOFC is certainly a tamer version of Facebook, twitter, etc but Americans keep wanting to blame politicians for the divide and our country's image. It was quite clear from 2009-2016 that a significant portion of this country wanted failure from it's own president because "our team" well yesterday this board proved "their team" is no different. It's the American people to blame not the politicians they just say what the people will vote for.

By the way it is "peace for our time" for your Hitler reference.

[jeff061]

Iran agreement signed and broken within a couple years.. Gadaffi de-nuclearized, tortured and killed.

Why would North Korea ever get rid of their nukes. Answer: they won't. Why would they follow in the steps of other countries we've fucked over. In the event they some how overlooked that, John Bolton was helpful enough to hammer that point home.

They've already gotten everything they wanted out of this fiasco, now they just want to see how long they can string this out. I'd expect this to be pretty long with Trump ignoring everyone around him and using his gut to form policy based on 60 seconds of dialogue.

[tarcone]

What is the issue with this? NK has been around 70 years. Trump isnt dealing with an ISIS leader and negotiating. He is negotiating with a leader of a recognized country, one that can de-stabilize an important region.

Im not sure why this is a bad thing. Except it was done by a republican.

[JPhillips]

The problem isn't negotiating, it's giving away things for free. What has NK given so far? They've possibly shut down a testing facility that might have been destroyed previously and was of questionable utility now that they have so many working bombs, but the CIA says the shutdown was less that it appeared. They've released three prisoners that shouldn't have been in jail in the first place.

Meanwhile we agreed to a summit and staged it in a way that legitimizes Kim and places him on equal footing to the US. We refuse to mention human rights. Trump gives Kim enormous propaganda by saying he trust him and that Kim loves his people. And we blindside our allies and cancel future military exercises.

[JPhillips]

pic.twitter.com/tJG3KIn2q0

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) June 12, 2018

He's killed millions of his own people and his country's a prison camp.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by tarcone

What is the issue with this? NK has been around 70 years. Trump isnt dealing with an ISIS leader and negotiating. He is negotiating with a leader of a recognized country, one that can de-stabilize an important region.

Im not sure why this is a bad thing. Except it was done by a republican.

I can't stand Trump, but if he pulls this off I will give him due credit. I think the skepticism comes from NK's history (and rightly so) coupled with the process of denuclearization will long outlast Trump's time in the Whitehouse.

It could be a historic accord, or it could be the ultimate troll job by Kim, saying all this to placate someone he might see as crazier than him. This stops the wargames, which makes him look good, then they take their time, but still do just enough to eventually ease some sanctions, then when there is a new president find something else to use as a trigger to back out and start it up again.

I think at this point you could almost flip a coin. I don't get why anybody would root for a President to fail, even hating him. But Trump has shown he can be easily swayed, is prone to reverse field at any moment and is definitely about himself. So it makes sense he could also be embellishing a lot to prop himself up and also use it as a rallying call for mid terms.

What happens beyond that, I doubt he has given a second thought. I truly hope this does go as intended, I really do. But it is WAY too early to substantially celebrate anything.

[PilotMan]

The only thing trump has given away is American brand value. He's done it because it's expendable to him. That's not something he'd do with his own brand though.

[larrymcg421]

Originally Posted by panerd

Seriously why isn't more peace (regardless of the leader) a good thing?

There are zero arguments in this thread that say more peace is a bad thing.

[digamma]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think its good we are stopping the wargames with SK.

Fairly amazing you're already calling the exercises war games.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by digamma

Fairly amazing you're already calling the exercises war games.

Just quoting Trump.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I think its good we are stopping the wargames with SK. It's a concession but the wargames are a provocation (e.g. imagine something like that happening on our borders or a NATO ally's border) and its a significant but easy card to play. The wargames can be restarted if truly no/little progress is made.

So crazy kid has had a successful charm initiative so far. Great for his ego and maybe encourage him to be less crazy and more neighborly. Has suspended nuclear testing (which I think is easily verifiable). And may get a trip to US

Strongly disagree in this context. We gave Kim nearly everything he was looking for and we walk away with a promise to continue negotiations and vague promises of denuclearization of the peninsula. And we did so in a way that alienates a long time ally.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

And we did so in a way that alienates a long time ally.

Are you referring to South Korea?

Not sure but I would think they are good with this summit and the results.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Are you referring to South Korea?

Not sure but I would think they are good with this summit and the results.

Based on what? North Korea gave up nothing, promised nothing concrete, and got everything they wanted. The US gave up decades of political leverage and in exchange received nothing but vague statements and promises.

I'm sure South Korea is happy they're at the table, but this is the exact outcome people fear with Trump. He has a history of caving to the last person he talks to. Trump was tougher on the other G7 countries than North Korea this week.

[jeff061]

South Korea will be pissed over the ceasing of military exercises, but they have been pushing heavily for this summit. Throwing a bitch fit when Trump canceled it for a few minutes.

So fuck em.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Based on what? North Korea gave up nothing, promised nothing concrete, and got everything they wanted. The US gave up decades of political leverage and in exchange received nothing but vague statements and promises.

I'm sure South Korea is happy they're at the table, but this is the exact outcome people fear with Trump. He has a history of caving to the last person he talks to. Trump was tougher on the other G7 countries than North Korea this week.

I do think SK is happy. They have seemed more conciliatory towards NK and would be surprised to find out they are negative towards giving up "war games" or feel alienated.

I did a quick look but didn't see anything. I'm sure there'll be polls soon on how SK feels about this, interesting to find out.

[bronconick]

Well, at least it's better than Hawaii, Alaska and the West coast being radioactive, which seemed where this was going 8 months ago.



*shrug*

[BBT]

Originally Posted by tarcone

What is the issue with this? NK has been around 70 years. Trump isnt dealing with an ISIS leader and negotiating. He is negotiating with a leader of a recognized country, one that can de-stabilize an important region.

Im not sure why this is a bad thing. Except it was done by a republican.

Obama wasn’t dealing with an ISIS leader either and the country he dealt with had been around a lot longer in a region that we value greatly. He was able to get them to denuclearize and have round the clock maintenance of all their facilities and regular inspections. Republicans torched him for it from the day that agreement with Iran was signed until Trump blew it up a few months ago; even came up with a debunked conspiracy theory that went viral. Now, Iran has started to plan to renuclearize. Spare me the party-blaming BS.

Trump said it was an “honor” to meet with Kim. “Honor” usually isn’t a word that should be used in those situations, especially by the side that should be showing strength. He also said (jokingly I think) that Kim’s citizen support him with great fervor. I get that word-choice isn’t a big deal in regular day-to-day conversations, but it’s a huge deal on the world stage. Trump looked weak; Kim got what he wanted, and more. America continues to flounder on the world stage. Republican/Democrat doesn’t matter...Trump’s just an idiot.

Hopefully, things get worked out. Hopefully, Trump’s gotten his photo op and will stay away while the big boys negotiate. Hopefully, other dictators aren’t emboldened by what they saw.

[digamma]

Noted libtard Tom Nichols:

I just watched a completely clueless President proclaim a special bond with one of the most ruthless murderers in the world, whom he thinks is “a talented man” who “loves his country.” If I cringed any harder my spine would snap.

— Tom Nichols (@RadioFreeTom) June 12, 2018

Oh wait, he's a nuclear policy expert, who teaches at the Naval War College and is a lifelong Republican.

[TecmoBoJackson]

Democrats applaud Obama having historic summit with brutal dictator Castro. Republicans lose their shit.


Republicans applaud Trump having historic summit with brutal dictator Kim. Democrats lose their shit.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by TecmoBoJackson

Democrats applaud Obama having historic summit with brutal dictator Castro. Republicans lose their shit.


Republicans applaud Trump having historic summit with brutal dictator Kim. Democrats lose their shit.

I'll take Castro (Raul, anyway) any day of the week over Kim.

Though given our historical (and even current) judgement on who are the good guys and bad guys, I don't think we have a leg to stand on. Let's just try and be friends with everybody and let them sort their own shit out. I know, completely unrealistic. But a guy can dream.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Yes, real concern that crazy kid is stringing Trump along.

Ah yes, still calling the guy "crazy" who is playing a shitty hand like a damned poker world champion.

Also, this happened in 2012:

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/01/w...lear-work.html

[Edward64]

Are we at the flop, turn or river right now?

[RainMaker]

North Korea has said they'd curb their nuclear program for decades. They never do. It's always used as some stunt to get something they want.

I don't mind the meeting. If you can get something done, that's great. This meeting didn't accomplish that. Which is fine because that sometimes happens.

My issues is with the constant praise Trump lavished him with. The fact they allowed so much media to document the event. And giving up something when NK gave up nothing in return. It's great propaganda for a dictator to go back to his country with.

[Izulde]

Frankly, our only hope is that our traditional allies understand that this is just a really weird, screwed up Trump phase. Boot him out in 2020 and work on repairing the damage that's been done in this absolute fuckery of a presidency.

[bronconick]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Frankly, our only hope is that our traditional allies understand that this is just a really weird, screwed up Trump phase. Boot him out in 2020 and work on repairing the damage that's been done in this absolute fuckery of a presidency.

Too late. How can anyone assume we won't turn around and vote in a similar dumbass in 2028?

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Frankly, our only hope is that our traditional allies understand that this is just a really weird, screwed up Trump phase. Boot him out in 2020 and work on repairing the damage that's been done in this absolute fuckery of a presidency.

When the Mueller investigation is complete and an unbelievably long list of crimes committed by Trump, his family, and so many of his inner circle are laid on the table for all to see, 30-40% of the country will call bullshit, deep state, witchhunt, led by Sean Hannity and friends. The branch of government designed to deal with this exact situation will do nothing b/c team > country and the rule of law, and that will be all that anyone needs to see to know what to think about the US going forward.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by BBT

He suspended it because the mountain they were using to test collapsed. It's why he's at the table right now.

I have no idea why this point keeps getting glossed over.

[NobodyHere]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I have no idea why this point keeps getting glossed over.

You know why. It's to make Trump look like he accomplished something.

[Thomkal]

AT&T/Time-Warner merger can go forward, and judge basically told the government off:


AT&T-Time Warner merger: Judge approves deal

[Groundhog]

I knew NK had promised to denuclearize before, I just didn't realize how many times: 2012, 2007, 2005, 1994, 1992, 1985.

Meanwhile, he's driven a wedge between the US and their biggest allies in order to swing for the fences on NK by walking down this same well-trodden path to try find something to hang his hat on, while also fostering better relations with Russia who would happily remove the USA from the map if they could do it with no repercussions. What a week.

[Mota]

So based on the results of this past week, are the top allies of the US North Korea and Russia? Based on Trump talk, these seem to be the people he respects the most.

[Thomkal]

A few primaries tonight-in South Carolina, our embarassing former governor Mark Sanford is looking like he might lose the GOP primary (thank God) thought its not called yet, and in Virginia, Tim Kaine, gets a Trump disciple (and racist) in Corey Stewart to run against and hopefully beat. Other Repubs in the state are already saying how terrible it is that he won the Primary.


Sanford has now conceded

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Mota

So based on the results of this past week, are the top allies of the US North Korea and Russia? Based on Trump talk, these seem to be the people he respects the most.

I'm leaning towards Russia.

There's something there ...

[JPhillips]

Ge here: http://ericbrakeyforsenate.com/

This is now the GOP nominee for U.S. Senator in Maine.

[Thomkal]

So it appears Trump showed the Korean leader a made-up movie trailer showing him what would happen if he agreed to denuclearize:


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/don...eaders-n882591

[RainMaker]

North Korea has agreed to denuclearization 13 times since the mid-80's. Not sure why this time it's different.

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