The Trump Presidency – 2016

[JPhillips]

Trump is threatening to cut off all trade to the EU.

From export.gov:

U.S. exports to the European Union enjoy an average tariff of just three percent.

[whomario]

Couple smalller things that caught my eye:

https://www.npr.org/2018/06/07/61793...-longer-wanted

Just another example of the "do what i tell you, or else ..." climate.

The EPA Will No Longer Evaluate the Health Risks of Asbestos Because Trump Believes it's 100-Percent Safe :: Politics :: News :: EPA :: Paste

Is it the 60s again ?

[Thomkal]

I hope that all those who get sick from it bypass the EPA and directly sue Trump.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by whomario

Couple smalller things that caught my eye:

Yellowstone National Park Superintendent: 'I'm No Longer Wanted' : NPR

Just another example of the "do what i tell you, or else ..." climate.

The EPA Will No Longer Evaluate the Health Risks of Asbestos Because Trump Believes it's 100-Percent Safe :: Politics :: News :: EPA :: Paste

Is it the 60s again ?

He can prove it by sleeping in a room filled with asbestos. I mean it's safe, right?

[Thomkal]

I really think he's doing this as a nod to real estate and construction companies, because you know absestos removal cost them money and time.

[Thomkal]

If you are in the mood for some "light" reading, you can now read over 1300 documents related to the lawsuit over the Census Bureau adding a citizenship question to the next census here:


https://apps.npr.org/documents/docum...trative-Record


No surprise that Steve Bannon and Kris Kobach were two of the main people behind it

[Thomkal]

Trump making friends with all Canadians:


Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump
PM Justin Trudeau of Canada acted so meek and mild during our @G7 meetings only to give a news conference after I left saying that, “US Tariffs were kind of insulting” and he “will not be pushed around.” Very dishonest & weak. Our Tariffs are in response to his of 270% on dairy!

[NobodyHere]

So what exactly is Trump's game plan in regards to the G7? I'm no expert on international economics, but it seems he's trying to make things difficult for everyone in order to get them to the bargaining table on US terms.

[lungs]

Trump is an idiot. Canada has had a closed quota system for dairy since the 1960s. They do not import or export dairy products beyond some higher end cheeses, etc..

He's not saying much about the tariffs Mexico enacted this week against dairy in response to the blubbering jackass.

Yet the farmers continue to support him because of some wild fantasy that he is actually going to negotiate better deals in the end. I'm glad I'm not a farmer anymore because shit is getting uglier by the day.

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by lungs

Yet the farmers continue to support him because of some wild fantasy that he is actually going to negotiate better deals in the end.

And apparently steel workers too.

Trump's Tariffs Worry A Small Steel City In Pennsylvania : NPR

"We need tariffs, but when it starts to impact the company where you work ... you're thinking, well wait a minute, time out!" he said.

Moore is worried the tariffs might cost him his job. The mill where he works, NLMK Pennsylvania, in the town of Farrell, not far from the border with Ohio, employs 750 workers and is a subsidiary of Novolipetsk Steel, or NLMK, Russia's top steelmaker.

And so when he first heard about President Trump's tariffs, he "applauded" the president. He says he still does but doesn't understand why his company should be punished for importing steel.

"Even if they're foreign-owned, but they have a factory in this country and they're employing American workers, to me, that's an American company," Almashy said.

To him, exempting this Russian-owned steel mill from tariffs would be a matter of putting "America First."

Locals mostly agree that Americans have been hurt by unfair global trade, but they also plead against tariffs on their local mill.

[JPhillips]

'I never thought leopards would eat MY face,' sobs woman who voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces Party.

— Adrian Bott (@Cavalorn) October 16, 2015

[mckerney]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Trump making friends with all Canadians:


Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump
PM Justin Trudeau of Canada acted so meek and mild during our @G7 meetings only to give a news conference after I left saying that, “US Tariffs were kind of insulting” and he “will not be pushed around.” Very dishonest & weak. Our Tariffs are in response to his of 270% on dairy!

So dairy tariffs are a bigger national security issue than Canada burning down the White House in the War of 1812?

[stevew]

Originally Posted by mckerney

And apparently steel workers too.

Trump's Tariffs Worry A Small Steel City In Pennsylvania : NPR

This is basically where I live. I have friends employed there.

And the city is a massive shit hole.

[Edward64]

Thank you John McCain.

Surprised to hear from you honestly. But thank you for saying what other chickens**t GOP won't say.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/09/polit...ade/index.html

Sen. John McCain pushed back Saturday night against President Donald Trump's reversal of an agreement to sign onto a statement by the G7 countries, saying that Americans would continue to stand with its historical allies.

"To our allies: bipartisan majorities of Americans remain pro-free trade, pro-globalization & supportive of alliances based on 70 years of shared values," the Arizona senator tweeted. "Americans stand with you, even if our president doesn't."

Earlier in the evening, Trump tweeted that Canadian prime minster Justin Trudeau was "meek" and "mild" and that his statements were "false."

Shortly after Trudeau said in an afternoon news conference that he was "happy to announce that we have released a joint communique by all seven countries" indicating that the US had signed on, Trump announced the US would reverse its decision and not join in the statement after all.

[kingfc22]

Fox and Friends with the Freudian slip of 2018 this morning referring to the “two dictators” which are about to meet in Singapore.

[BBT]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

So what exactly is Trump's game plan in regards to the G7? I'm no expert on international economics, but it seems he's trying to make things difficult for everyone in order to get them to the bargaining table on US terms.

He believes he can negotiate from a position of strength and, therefore, get favorable deals instead of the equal deals that are currently in place. He's treating it like his businesses and looking at the others as his opponents instead of his partners. There is no compromise, only winning.

It isn't that bad of a strategy with the economy in the shape it's in and with the projects he wants to push. However, I'm not sure he can pull it off with his limited diplomacy skills and absence of tact. More than likely, it'll backfire and could have grave consequences going forward.

Remember, this is the guy that has a number of failed businesses on his resume and I doubt he cares if this one goes under either. He's making plenty of money for the Trump organization on the side which is probably all he cares about in the end.

[Thomkal]

Originally Posted by kingfc22

Fox and Friends with the Freudian slip of 2018 this morning referring to the “two dictators” which are about to meet in Singapore.

Ha ha, finally Fox is "fair and balanced"

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by BBT

It isn't that bad of a strategy with the economy in the shape it's in and with the projects he wants to push. However, I'm not sure he can pull it off with his limited diplomacy skills and absence of tact. More than likely, it'll backfire and could have grave consequences going forward.

I think the Trump hold's the "trump" card and can "win". The US can certainly hurt Canada more than the reverse.

The G6 will probably concede enough for Trump but they will be looking forward to Trump losing re-election and the inevitable US-repair-relationships campaign.

[JPhillips]

But none of the G6 will give in without getting what can be spun as reciprocal concessions.

This is where authoritarians have an advantage over democracies. If this was China or Saudi Arabia they could just bribe Trump or Jared and the tariffs would go away.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Thomkal

Trump making friends with all Canadians:


Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump
PM Justin Trudeau of Canada acted so meek and mild during our @G7 meetings only to give a news conference after I left saying that, “US Tariffs were kind of insulting” and he “will not be pushed around.” Very dishonest & weak. Our Tariffs are in response to his of 270% on dairy!

He thinks he is only speaking to the American public when he writes these ridiculous tweets. But the world reads them. He basically called our Prime Minister a pussy.

So yes, relationship = 10 is a complete lie. The US are our neighbors and very close to us, but Trump is causing some major rifts between the countries that are making long term impacts in our relationships. I would guess that the same thing is happening with many countries around the world. Winning at the expense of every other country in the world is actually losing.

[whomario]

Trump's willingness to walk away at the G-7 and North Korea summits show his foreign policy is working | Fox News

How can anybody come to that conclusion ? That's like saying me willing to throw a tantrum at a meeting and leave (rather than shutting my trapper and stay) somehow indicates that i have the upper hand ... Because ... why exactly ? The only reason the US under Trump isn't already totally isolated and thrown to the curb is that fortunately (for Trump) the dozens of presidents before him and generations of people secured a position of immense importance for the US. To somehow claim that Trump is improving the US' position in the world by acting like a petulant child not getting the action figure in the cereal box is so damn insane.

Also:

There is still no other country even close to our level of progress in freedom, prosperity and individual liberty.

Good one. At least you got me to chuckle once

[whomario]

Maybe he should just continue extorting 3rd world countries to make himself and his fans feel better.

[jeff061]

I suspect/hope there's been tremendous behind the scenes diplomacy with our allies re-assuring them Trump is a temporary moron and nothing he says will stick.

If not, I'm not sure why someone hasn't taken him out yet.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I suspect/hope there's been tremendous behind the scenes diplomacy with our allies re-assuring them Trump is a temporary moron and nothing he says will stick.

If not, I'm not sure why someone hasn't taken him out yet.

By whome ? He's replaced everybody not singing the party line by now.

[Edward64]

I do want to keep an open mind though. Kudlow says Trump was reacting to being stabbed in the back but I'm not sure we know how or the specifics.

It's unlikely that whatever Trudeau may have done (or that Trump imagined him doing) justifies this treatment of an ally but I do still want to know that data point.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by whomario

Also:

There is still no other country even close to our level of progress in freedom, prosperity and individual liberty.

Good one. At least you got me to chuckle once

IMO, although we may not be #1 in all three, we are pretty high up there.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by jeff061

I suspect/hope there's been tremendous behind the scenes diplomacy with our allies re-assuring them Trump is a temporary moron and nothing he says will stick.

I have to believe that is happening. If not from the GOP (other than from "thank God you are still alive John McCain"), then probably back channels from Obama and Clinton (not sure about Hillary though).

Has there ever been any European leader (since WWII I guess) of a country that we were friendly with that mimics the antagonistic situation with Trump right now?

I'm not a historian but I was thinking DeGaulle is closest? Hard to have a proper context just reading a dry history page but maybe Trump isn't the first?

France–United States relations - Wikipedia

De Gaulle

In the 1950s France sought American help in developing nuclear weapons; Eisenhower rejected the overtures for four reasons. Before 1958, he was troubled by the political instability of the French Fourth Republic and worried that it might use nuclear weapons in its colonial wars in Vietnam and Algeria. Charles de Gaulle brought stability to the Fifth Republic starting in 1958, but Eisenhower was still hesitant to assist in the nuclearization of France. De Gaulle wanted to challenge the Anglo-Saxon monopoly on Western weapons by having his own Force de frappe. Eisenhower feared his grandiose plans to use the bombs to restore French grandeur would weaken NATO. Furthermore, Eisenhower wanted to discourage the proliferation of nuclear arms anywhere.[64]

DeGaulle also quarreled with Washington over the admission of Britain into the European Economic Community. These and other tensions led to de Gaulle's decision in 1966 to withdraw French forces from the integrated military structure of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation and forced it to move its headquarters to Belgium. De Gaulle's foreign policy was centered on an attempt to limit the power and influence of both superpowers, which would increase France's international prestige in relative terms. De Gaulle hoped to move France from being a follower of the United States to a leading first-world power with a large following among certain non-aligned Third World countries. The nations de Gaulle considered potential participants in this grouping were those in France's traditional spheres of influence, Africa and the Middle East.[65]

The two nations differed over the waging of the Vietnam War, in part because French leaders were convinced that the United States could not win. The recent French experience with the Algerian War of Independence was that it was impossible, in the long run, for a democracy to impose by force a government over a foreign population without considerable manpower and probably the use of unacceptable methods such as torture. The French popular view of the United States worsened at the same period, as it came to be seen as an imperialist power.[66][67]

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Edward64

I do want to keep an open mind though. Kudlow says Trump was reacting to being stabbed in the back but I'm not sure we know how or the specifics.

It's unlikely that whatever Trudeau may have done (or that Trump imagined him doing) justifies this treatment of an ally but I do still want to know that data point.

It's just an excuse for doing what Trump was too cowardly to do face to face.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by JPhillips

It's just an excuse for doing what Trump was too cowardly to do face to face.

Most likely.

Or maybe a reaction to Macron's handshake?

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Edward64

IMO, although we may not be #1 in all three, we are pretty high up there.

With the amount of ressources and accumulated global and financial power you ought to be. But then there are also the facts ...Even if one finds some sort of esoteric definition (like maybe singing the anthem very loudly) where the US is "high up there", ye olde party line of the US essentially being the only "land of the free" out there with everybody else enduring varying degrees of oppression is an incredibly ridicolous position to take, considering the US is doing exceedingly poorly in comparison with other industrialized countries in a ton of areas.
Just shouting something very loudly and believing in it very much doesn't really make it true. Granted nothing of this has to do with Trump as such and this shouldn't be misconstrued as me claiming the US is basically North Korea part 2. But "There is still no other country even close to our level of progress in freedom, prosperity and individual liberty" it is a ridiculous, arrogant and simply wrong claim not supported by facts. It is propaganda. And extremely weird coming from the "side" clamouring the sad state of the US only 2 years ago, vowing to make it "great" again.

https://qz.com/879092/the-us-doesnt-...loped-country/

To name a few where the US is doing very poorly: poverty rates, incarceration rates, obesity and a variety of other health related matters (infant mortality, average expenditure, available hospital beds, life expectancy etc), education, gender equality, employment, renewable energy, violent death rate.

Yeah the statistics are not perfectly done (not the same countries everytime f.e.) but they do illustrate things clearly enough.

[Edward64]

And yet the vast majority of people when asked where, want to immigrate to the US. Far and above any other country.

Warts and all, when taken as a whole. One of the greatest place to be.

[Bee]

Originally Posted by Edward64

And yet the vast majority of people when asked where, want to immigrate to the US. Far and above any other country.

Warts and all, when taken as a whole. One of the greatest place to be.

That might have been true in the 80's.

[whomario]

Originally Posted by Edward64

And yet the vast majority of people when asked where, want to immigrate to the US. Far and above any other country.

Warts and all, when taken as a whole. One of the greatest place to be.

Yes, yes, america is awesome. Cool. I get it.

But do you have any contemporary statistics/research to back this up ? Or do you just "feel" this is the case ? What sort of people are we talking about here ? And what would that even prove ? That the American Myth is still alive and kicking elsewhere ? Is that really a sufficient replacement for actual quality of life ?

I am sure one could find stats that prove the US as a popular (or even the most popular destination) for quite a few countries but i am also sure most of those have more to do with either a) proximity/interconnection and b) factors such as job/education availability for specialised professions and of course c) Language.

Or the people you'd ask are those that can ignore the issues due to being well off financially. Or those so poor and uneducated that they still buy the idea of the american myth.

But all that really doesn't amount to "The US is the best place to live in the World" and even less does it amount to "no other country even comes close".

As i said, i find it not only arrogant/condescending but also quite frankly a disservice to the population to write on a national platform something akin to claiming the US is pretty much the only country with prosperity and freedom and every other country's poor citizens are enduring varying degress of oppression and are toiling in poverty. You do realise that by buying that party line and acting/voting accordingly you are contributing to the slowing down of actual progress ? I mean, be satisfied with what you have. That's cool. Appreciate that you live in a place with democracy and a free economy. That's cool as well. But unless people start to realise that things aren't actually going all that great, how is anything ever going to change ? You will likely still be among the top of the list in all the wrong categories 50 years from now.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Edward64

And yet the vast majority of people when asked where, want to immigrate to the US. Far and above any other country.

Warts and all, when taken as a whole. One of the greatest place to be.

The last poll I saw (which was during the Obama era) of that showed it's only like 5-8% on average and only in countries that are poor. First world countries largely didn't want to be here outside of Japan.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

The last poll I saw (which was during the Obama era) of that showed it's only like 5-8% on average and only in countries that are poor. First world countries largely didn't want to be here outside of Japan.

2017

21% for US vs next closest at 6% for Germany
Which countries do migrants want to move to? | World Economic Forum

2013

45M for US vs next closest at 11M for Russian Federation
https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...hey-go/279741/

2012

23% for US vs next closest at 7% for UK
http://news.gallup.com/poll/153992/1...e-migrate.aspx

Sure methodologies and assumptions are different etc. Sure many Europeans wouldn't bother (UK makes one list I think).

For right or wrong, in aggregate, the US is viewed to be the place to be.

As I infer by your comment re:First World countries don't want to ... why shouldn't the non-western person's desire to immigrate to the US count just as much as a "first world" person not wanting to?

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by whomario

Yes, yes, america is awesome. Cool. I get it.

But do you have any contemporary statistics/research to back this up ? Or do you just "feel" this is the case ? What sort of people are we talking about here ? And what would that even prove ? That the American Myth is still alive and kicking elsewhere ? Is that really a sufficient replacement for actual quality of life ?

I am sure one could find stats that prove the US as a popular (or even the most popular destination) for quite a few countries but i am also sure most of those have more to do with either a) proximity/interconnection and b) factors such as job/education availability for specialised professions and of course c) Language.

Or the people you'd ask are those that can ignore the issues due to being well off financially. Or those so poor and uneducated that they still buy the idea of the american myth.

But all that really doesn't amount to "The US is the best place to live in the World" and even less does it amount to "no other country even comes close".

As i said, i find it not only arrogant/condescending but also quite frankly a disservice to the population to write on a national platform something akin to claiming the US is pretty much the only country with prosperity and freedom and every other country's poor citizens are enduring varying degress of oppression and are toiling in poverty. You do realise that by buying that party line and acting/voting accordingly you are contributing to the slowing down of actual progress ? I mean, be satisfied with what you have. That's cool. Appreciate that you live in a place with democracy and a free economy. That's cool as well. But unless people start to realise that things aren't actually going all that great, how is anything ever going to change ? You will likely still be among the top of the list in all the wrong categories 50 years from now.

Care to share your top 5 countries, in your opinion, ranks higher than the US as a "great place to be"? I would be very interested in your alternatives which will help me understand what factors are important to you?

You have alot of what I call "whatabouts". I want to see if I can come up with some of mine to counter your rankings. I think it'll be a good discussion topic and make things clearer.

[BBT]

This is an incredible picture.

[NobodyHere]

Imagine if that was the beginning of a porn scene

[NobodyHere]

If you did then you have a sick mind

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

Care to share your top 5 countries, in your opinion, ranks higher than the US as a "great place to be"?

Not Whomario, but without even thinking twice:

Sweden, Canada, Finland, Japan.

Given that we lag behind the rest of the world when it comes to gun violence and healthcare and we actively seem to not care about either problem, our widening income gap, I think I would also likely choose England, France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, possibly Australia, possibly Italy - all before the United States.

Our attitude as a nation towards universal healthcare and our absolute indifference towards the inconceivable amount of gun violence in this country is more than enough to have me choosing any of those other countries if given a choice say right out of college with a clean slate.

On top of that, average life expectancy is 4+ years longer in most western european nations. We are weaker than many western european nations in measures of gender equality, so I'd rather have a daughter in most of those countries than the US. We lag behind on renewable energy. We ELECT climate change deniers. Our income gap is one of the biggest in the developed world.

And, despite all these problems, despite all the outrage we all SHOULD have... we have one of the lowest voter turnouts in the world. We also have one of the worst voting systems in the world with our first past the post voting system, but no one that matters is interested in changing that because it would require people in power to give up some power for the good of the nation.


The US is not an awful place to live. I am proud of many things that my country has accomplished. But I think you have to have had your head stuck in the sand for a very, very long time to blindly defend the things happening here compared to most of the developed world over the last 20-25 years or so. This isn't new with Trump, we've been going down a depressing and awful path for a long time now. Trump is *hopefully* our rock bottom. But honestly I have zero faith that any of this actually gets better. What's our goal? To get back to the past 16 years before Trump where the only goal of Congress is to fuck over the other side?

I hope we are not done as a nation, but I fear that we are. I truly fear that there is no coming back from the depths that we have sunk to. The fact that large groups of our population just blindly beat their chest and chant U-S-A instead of acknowledging that the rest of the world does MANY things better than we do is one of the nails in the coffin in my eyes.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

You have alot of what I call "whatabouts". I want to see if I can come up with some of mine to counter your rankings. I think it'll be a good discussion topic and make things clearer.

https://qz.com/879092/the-us-doesnt-...loped-country/

Also in case you missed it, whomario linked this article in his earlier post. I don't think there are many "whatabouts" in his statements at all. These issues where most of the developed world does better than us in many measures should already be common knowledge amongst all americans. We shouldn't pretend this isn't happening, we should be voting and working like crazy to improve as many of these things as we can.

[Julio Riddols]

I feel like where we are as a country is nowhere near where we could be if our main focus was preparing and staying prepared for the future rather than clinging to the past and making moves to get everything we can right now. In my opinion we should always be paving the way for the next generation and continuing to make it easier for the best of us to find their way to their greatest potential. The way we currently do things shorts so many of our brightest minds, the ones who aren't fortunate enough to be born in a situation conducive to their ultimate growth, the ones who are held back by lack of opportunity. The more well educated and well trained our youth can be, the better off everyone will be. Medicine and technology would advance faster, business would boom everywhere for everyone, and the world would be a better place..

But since most of it won't happen in our lifetime, a lot of selfish bastards don't care to address those kinds of needs. The ones with the money and power generally aren't interested in bettering things for the future as much as they are in maximizing everything they have right now. Doesn't matter to them that having more qualified buyers (as a result of better education and opportunity) makes the market better for everyone - Because the ones reaping the benefits wouldn't be them.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by NobodyHere

Imagine if that was the beginning of a porn scene

Er, nope ... can't imagine it at all.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

But I think you have to have had your head stuck in the sand for a very, very long time to blindly defend the things happening here compared to most of the developed world over the last 20-25 years or so. This isn't new with Trump ...

I don't think "blindly" is valid description of my POV. I see pros and cons. Admittedly, the cons may be different from yours or differing in degrees but blindly does not describe me IMO.

In all seriousness, thanks for participating. In reading below, I am able to see differences in thinking and criteria already. I think this discussion may get heated, probably won't change people's minds, but I do think its a good one to have and understand why we think what we believe ...

We are talking about comparing the US and other countries in a list of "great places to be/live". My hypothesis is based on my personal opinion of course, what I've seen, experienced travelling overseas etc. but also based on the studies of where people want to immigrate to.

Bits and pieces that I've gathered as counter arguments to this immigration argument are first world nations don't want to immigrate to US as much as developing nations. This is true but why does a "brown skin" desire count less than a "white skin" desire?

My argument is *not* for "for first world people, mostly white, the US is a great place to live and preferred choice". When taken in aggregate, I've posted studies that show the US is the clear choice.

Two caveats - I assume this is all re: regular "legal" immigration and not illegal or war refugees. I also concede that the US desirability has been lowered due to Trump but latest studies I could find are as of 2017.

Originally Posted by Radii

Not Whomario, but without even thinking twice:

Sweden, Canada, Finland, Japan.

Of your list, I would eliminate Sweden, Finland, Japan "without thinking". How diverse is their population? Are they really welcoming of immigrants and mixed race marriages? (certainly not Japan). Will these immigrants have good economic opportunities?

Will any racial minority ever get elected Pres/PM (okay, maybe this is too extreme but you get my meaning). What is the % of businesses owned by minorities?

I'm not going to dig to get these statistics because I suspect even if I do, the methodology and underlying assumptions will be contested (resulting in a lot of wasted time). However, this provides you the insight on why I think the way I do.

Yes, I think Canada is up there. The cons I would say are - its damn cold ; the CAD there will not buy you as much as a USD will here. I believe Canada has easier immigration policies than the US which would add to the desirability but regardless, I would agree that Canada is up there.

Originally Posted by Radii

Given that we lag behind the rest of the world when it comes to gun violence and healthcare and we actively seem to not care about either problem, our widening income gap, I think I would also likely choose England, France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Iceland, possibly Australia, possibly Italy - all before the United States.

Same argument as above. Of your list, I would say UK, Australia are high up there re: immigration desirability, diversity, opportunity etc.

Originally Posted by Radii

Our attitude as a nation towards universal healthcare and our absolute indifference towards the inconceivable amount of gun violence in this country is more than enough to have me choosing any of those other countries if given a choice say right out of college with a clean slate.

"Absolute indifference" is unfair. You are talking about the politicians inability to act (and even then its not absolute), and certainly not our society as a whole.

For healthcare I somewhat agree. Question - are you willing to pay much higher taxes for universal healthcare like in Canada or UK? Let's say from 33% to 50%?

Originally Posted by Radii

On top of that, average life expectancy is 4+ years longer in most western european nations. We are weaker than many western european nations in measures of gender equality, so I'd rather have a daughter in most of those countries than the US. We lag behind on renewable energy. We ELECT climate change deniers. Our income gap is one of the biggest in the developed world.

The western European countries are what % of the world? Why are you stressing that criteria? What is the gender equality, renewable energy, life expectancy etc. statistics in developing countries? Taken in aggregate, including all the other "brown skin" developing countries, the US is the country of choice ... warts and all. If these western European countries are that much better than the US, why don't these other "brown skin" developing population want to immigrate to them more than the US?

(Gender equality of US vs Western European is interesting, I do want to read up on that).

I don't think you really mean it but I think you (and some others) are so "white" centric when you use this argument and eliminate the rest of the world?

Originally Posted by Radii

And, despite all these problems, despite all the outrage we all SHOULD have... we have one of the lowest voter turnouts in the world. We also have one of the worst voting systems in the world with our first past the post voting system, but no one that matters is interested in changing that because it would require people in power to give up some power for the good of the nation.

No argument on the turnout %. Question - why do you think we have one of the worst voting systems in the world.

[Edward64]

Originally Posted by Radii

https://qz.com/879092/the-us-doesnt-...loped-country/

Also in case you missed it, whomario linked this article in his earlier post. I don't think there are many "whatabouts" in his statements at all. These issues where most of the developed world does better than us in many measures should already be common knowledge amongst all americans. We shouldn't pretend this isn't happening, we should be voting and working like crazy to improve as many of these things as we can.

So this article is about

"In 2015, the United Nations defined 17 goals for any country claiming to achieve complete sustainable development."

The 17 criteria are:

1) No poverty
2) Zero hunger
3) Good health & well being
4) Quality education
5) Gender equality
6) Clean water & sanitation
7) Affordable & clean energy
8) Decent work & economic growth
9) Industry, innovation, infrastructure
10) Reduced inequalities
11) Sustainable cities & communities
12) Responsible consumption and production
13) Climate action
14) Life below water
15) Life on land
16) Peace Justice and strong institutions
17) Partnership for the goals

I don't believe all of these are good criteria's for "great places to be/live". How does "life below water" or "climate action" apply other than in the cerebral sense? Under nutrition, it talks about obesity ... so what, why is this a big deal in the context of our discussion?

This seems to be more of a elitist first world's achieve Maslow's "self actualization" than a "hey what is a country I want to immigrate/live in because I think my family and I will do best there".

[whomario]

Why do we and the statistics "eliminate" the Rest of the World ? It isn't because we are closet racists, but because it is nonsensical to compare the country with the (by far !) highest GDP in the World with anything other than developed/industrialized countries that are even in the same stratosphere in terms of ressources. That's how comparisons work.

Or do you also laud the abilities of the Cleveland Browns because they would still beat (m)any College team and international teams ? Yes they are still professional athletes capable of playing football better than 99.99 % of the population. But is that relevant ? No, because the onloy sensible thing to do is to compare them to other NFL teams.

And how the heck does taking developing countries into consideration make the US the country of choice versus not doing so ? Because they then rank 28th out of 200 rather than 28th out of 30 in some categories ?

You seriously don't get that the best thing the US has going for it in terms of popularity is its past and the still enduring myth of it all ? Especially when you are asking in countries where, on average, people will be swayed by it's glitzy image much more than rational facts ? You should care how good a place it actually is to live in, not how great it's PR has been.

[whomario]

And the original issue/question wasn't "where do immigrants want to go", especially not considering the original statement came from a website railing against immigrants on a daily basis.

The question was: "what places offer the most prosperity and freedom for Joe Shmoe" or alternatively "what countries offer the best standards of living" ? (well, technically it was closer to "does anybody else even have freedom and prosperity or are they all degress of North Korea ?", but i translated it from FOX to english)
Do you really want to be happy that people want to come to the US rather than question whether that is really warranted based on facts ?

You are deflecting here. That is "whataboutism", not me bringing up actual facts and figures comparing the US to relevant countries for the sake of this argument.

What do you think which cities most americans would name when asked where they would want to live if they could choose just 1 ? The most livable ones or the most well known ones with the most illustrious image ?

[Edward64]

Lots to digest.

Your 5 countries please?

What are your facts that leads you to believe they are better than the US is desirability?

[JPhillips]

Trump's decided to leave the NK summit a day early.

Low energy. SAD.

[Radii]

Originally Posted by Edward64

"Absolute indifference" is unfair. You are talking about the politicians inability to act (and even then its not absolute), and certainly not our society as a whole.

I don't think so. Look at the our gun violence threads. We as individuals do the same thing the politicians and the media do - just read how quickly our own threads on school shootings devolve. Children killing other children on a regular basis isn't enough for us to overcome the power of the NRA lobby and actually do anything, and we are the only country in the developed world with this problem.

For healthcare I somewhat agree. Question - are you willing to pay much higher taxes for universal healthcare like in Canada or UK? Let's say from 33% to 50%?

Yes.

The western European countries are what % of the world? Why are you stressing that criteria?

Because I don't care how the US stacks up against Angola, I care how the US stacks up against the developed world, and the easiest place for a quick comparison is to look at Western Europe. I'm not trying to discount Australia, Japan, Canada, South Korea and many other places, they all count too.

No argument on the turnout %. Question - why do you think we have one of the worst voting systems in the world.

The Problems with First Past the Post Voting Explained - YouTube

This has always been my favorite "simple explanation"

Other videos in that series explain other voting systems and show how they allow much better representation of the people than what we do here in the US.



I could have kept my post much, much shorter:

"Because of the US views and inaction on Healthcare and Gun Violence, I think there are countless other countries that I would list before the US" in what I perceived to be our initial discussion. Its just that I think there are also a lot of other things that other countries do better than us as well, but I could have just stopped there.