|
View Poll Results: How is Obama doing? (poll started 6/6) | |||
Great - above my expectations | 18 | 6.87% | |
Good - met most of my expectations | 66 | 25.19% | |
Average - so so, disappointed a little | 64 | 24.43% | |
Bad - sold us out | 101 | 38.55% | |
Trout - don't know yet | 13 | 4.96% | |
Voters: 262. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
07-15-2010, 06:00 PM | #10101 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
I think if I had to choose between living in your world or Jon's I may move by you, high taxes and all. I would much rather have people at least trying to help other people than shoving their faux morality down my throat. Of course if there was a third choice... |
|
07-15-2010, 06:00 PM | #10102 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
|
07-15-2010, 06:08 PM | #10103 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
Quote:
Where do you stop denying treatment for risky behavior? Do smokers lose medical access? What about red meat lovers? People who have multiple sex partners? If you try I'd bet you could deny medical care to almost everyone.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
|
07-15-2010, 06:10 PM | #10104 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
Where do you stop spending other people's money trying to solve all of the above problems? |
|
07-15-2010, 06:17 PM | #10105 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
I'd prefer that it wasn't necessary to provide anyone else's morality, but given the complete absence of it in so many cases ... Quote:
But if your idea of what's important is to become the food police, consider the government running healthcare as a legitimate option worthy of even hypothetical conditions, and to end the only attempt at educational accountability in decades, please, move to DT Land. You wouldn't be welcome in Jonville, even be granted a temporary tourist visa to visit a distant relative would be questionable.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
07-15-2010, 06:20 PM | #10106 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
Quote:
You didn't mention other people's money. But my money goes to all sorts of people through insurance premiums, drug costs, etc.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers Last edited by JPhillips : 07-15-2010 at 06:22 PM. Reason: to clarify a mistaken point. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:03 PM | #10107 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
|
|
07-15-2010, 07:10 PM | #10108 |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
|
I grew up with an alcoholic dad...like many...I believe the government should prevent people from drinking.
|
07-15-2010, 07:24 PM | #10109 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
Is this before or after the death camps open up? |
|
07-15-2010, 07:26 PM | #10110 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
8 billion for that swap? Sure... |
|
07-15-2010, 07:26 PM | #10111 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
So the argument here seems to be having you pay for people in poor health through your insurance premiums, or through your taxes. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:27 PM | #10112 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
So, for $8,000,000,000, I look forward to seeing a noticeable decline in the percentage of obese children in this country. Or is this another one of those good intentions thing?
|
07-15-2010, 07:31 PM | #10113 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
|
Quote:
Do folks really think it's that far off? I have no problem with kids getting nutrion at school. Do you think that'll change what they eat at home? No...why? Because they lack parenting. More than likely they have overweight parents and they will model that behavior...or they will get their parents to pack their lunch...or whatever other workaround there will be. Now what? 8 billion spent, probably some kids learned, but the vast majority continue doing what they're doing...playing video games and eating crap. So now the government takes the next step by taxing such foods...and guess what? The people continue doing it. Then they seek to take it off the market. Does this all happen overnight like I might have made it seem? No but it's the way it would head...just like everything else, the government feels they have the power to do such things and sadly, a small amount of people feed this. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:31 PM | #10114 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
No actually this isn't the point I am trying to make. I think $8,000,000,000 to change public school lunches in hopes that it will chnage choices being made at home is a waste of money and will accomplish zero. I don't feel there is really any positive of a giant bureaucracy trying to tackle any problem. I offered up some solutions in case someone asked me what I would do. I personally would do nothing. I could care less about obesity, I am sure those 500+ lb people feel like shit all of the time and that is probably miserable enough without trying to tax them to change their behavior. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:32 PM | #10115 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
And if it means our overall obesity problem declines in 10-15 years, it's worth every penny. The question is does this $8 billion end up saving us money in the long run in terms of avoidable medical issues that we cover for others through our premiums, or in our taxes for programs such as Medicare. If it does, it's a no-brainer.
Lot of people complaining about unhealthy people costing them money. So someone puts a plan in place to get these people on the right track early before their ways are set in stone, and everyone shits on it. I personally think the biggest problem with obesity is education. It's staggering how many people still think fat makes you fat. Or avoids fruit because it has carbs. How many people actually know what their BMR is? Teach people that shit and I think you start seeing results. |
07-15-2010, 07:33 PM | #10116 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
|
|
07-15-2010, 07:37 PM | #10117 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
Whatever. Try and twist my words all you want. We both know the $8,000,000,000 is not going to change shit. I am opposed to spending $8,000,000,000 on a project that is doomed to fail. Kids are not fat because of school lunch offerings they are fat because their parents are fat. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:42 PM | #10118 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
I'm sure parents play a role in that, but the statistics don't lie. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:42 PM | #10119 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
It isn't going to change what they eat at school either, it's just going to reduce the amount they eat. Kids will eat what kids will eat and no amount of money spent is going to suddenly make them stop liking pizza nor start liking tofu sprout casserole. The current "OMG the kids are overweight" hysteria is one of the most absurd bits of bullshit in many years, making it the perfect cause for the fence post turtle's wife.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
07-15-2010, 07:44 PM | #10120 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
I was offering up the solution because DT and company are big supporters of the government running health care so I gave them an option that would fit into their plan. As far as NCLB goes... this next generation will be landing a man on Mars with the "improvements" that have occured since the farce that is NCLB was passed. Nothing better than public schools teaching to a test and teaching even less critical thinking. As to your tourist visa... I live in St. Louis so don't take this the wrong way but I don't think anyone is coming to middle Georgia or Missouri on vacations. So I am not all that worried about my visa being revoked. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:46 PM | #10121 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
So why does it cost $8,000,000,000 to offer a healthy alternative? That's $150 a kid. Really? A letter to each school cafeteria saying to please offer healthy foods = $40,000. (I am sure they may be able to get a discount here also) What does the other $7,999,960,000 go towards? Last edited by panerd : 07-15-2010 at 07:51 PM. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:51 PM | #10122 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
Hey, that's why I used visiting a relative
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
07-15-2010, 07:52 PM | #10123 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Massachusetts
|
Quote:
Hehe. We'd welcome you in our world. I'm all for fiscal responsibility - I just don't think that the way to get there is to cut all social programs to the bone. I'd much rather see it taken out of the defense budget, closing tax loopholes for corporations and the ultra-rich, and eliminating pork-barrel bullshit projects that senators bring home to their districts. A few libertarians, or even a decent core of them to promote fiscal responsibility and keep things in line wouldn't be a bad thing at all.
__________________
Get bent whoever hacked my pw and changed my signature. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:57 PM | #10124 | |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
|
Quote:
This is a good example of giving a middle class solution to a poverty class problem. I did urban lunch programs, fitness and education for years. The poor kids I worked with (Chinatown and Mission) lunch was by far their biggest meal of the day. hardly anyone had video games, most parent(s) worked 12 hours and they always had many generations to care for. A major problem, what is inconceivable the middle class, is access to fresh, affordable food. There are no super markets. So it's fill up the food stamps with whatever you can get at the corner store. |
|
07-15-2010, 07:57 PM | #10125 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
Parents are a big problem, there is no denying that. I'm still shocked at how many parents let their kids drink soda regularly. When I grew up, we'd get it on rare occasions. When we went out to dinner, over holidays, or on a hot Summer day. We weren't able to just run in and pound a six-pack of Pepsi every day like some of these kids can. Then again, while we had video games, it wasn't like today. Our days still consisted of being outside playing sports till sun fall. Last edited by RainMaker : 07-15-2010 at 08:00 PM. |
|
07-15-2010, 08:02 PM | #10126 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
No doubt. I would have no problem with any of those. Add to it take all of the money out of our offensive budget and let Isreal pull the puppet strings on Jon's country. |
|
07-15-2010, 08:03 PM | #10127 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
|
|
07-15-2010, 08:04 PM | #10128 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
Not if they won't eat them, most of what you're accomplishing then is wasting food. I've seen the "healthy choices" type menu in use, more than one version of it in fact. Not even high achieving kids of highly educated parents in a town chock full of both foodies & erstwhile hippie health nuts would touch the majority of it. And that's with it prepared by a local restaurant off-site, much less what would happen with a typical school cafeteria working on it. This is nothing more than another liberal feel-good boondoggle throwing even more taxpayer dollars down the drain. And even the slightest bit of common sense & reality could avoid it.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
07-15-2010, 08:06 PM | #10129 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
|
07-15-2010, 08:16 PM | #10130 |
College Benchwarmer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: SF
|
|
07-15-2010, 08:30 PM | #10131 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Ohh...Ooh...I know. Why don't we visit this one year from after this takes effect and you can tell me the amount that actually went to the distribution of real food (as oppose to "guidelines") versus the bureaucracy and paperwork in making this program look good. |
07-15-2010, 08:31 PM | #10132 |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
Just using better ingredients and less salt while still serving the same dishes would go a long way.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
07-15-2010, 08:32 PM | #10133 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
And this isn't a liberal feel-good boondoggle. It's supposed to cut costs down the road by having less kids with obesity related problems entering adulthood. The thing that half this thread has been bitching about paying for. Although I know statistics and science are the work of the devil. And if the kids don't eat it, fine. They can go hungry. This notion that kids will only eat meals that are fried or covered in frosting is absurd. Last edited by RainMaker : 07-15-2010 at 08:33 PM. |
|
07-15-2010, 08:39 PM | #10134 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
I think myself, Buccaneer, rowech, JIMga (and others but these had the most posts) have all said it isn't going to do $8,000,000,000 worth of good while you have. That seems to be the major difference. We want to know what could possibly cost $8,000,000,000? Like JPhillips said better ingredients and less salt. I agree that would be great but that isn't going to cost $160,000 a school is it? |
|
07-15-2010, 08:52 PM | #10135 |
Head Coach
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Colorado
|
Salaries, benefits, pensions, office space, consultants, fees for experts, printing costs, office supplies, travel costs, conferences, IT infrastructure, on-site and off-site training, vehicles, etc. Not to mention that next year's budget, which is not zero-based.
That's where most of your tax dollars go to and you wonder, for big programs or small ones, why so few benefits comparatively happen for so much costs. But some elected official or politician can claim progress or "doing something", as well as any of these programs used as ammunition for opposition politics, allowing the bureaucracy, belt-way mentality and deficits to grow. |
07-15-2010, 08:54 PM | #10136 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Newburgh, NY
|
And just to be clear about what's actually in the bill:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure the Senate has also passed a version, but for about half the total of the House bill.
__________________
To love someone is to strive to accept that person exactly the way he or she is, right here and now.. - Mr. Rogers |
|
07-15-2010, 08:55 PM | #10137 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
If there are studies showing that healthier lunches has no positive impact, then I'm on your side. I don't want to waste money either. |
|
07-15-2010, 09:00 PM | #10138 | ||
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
Buccaneer's answer is much better than anything I can come up with. I have witnessed bureaucracy at both my job and the federal level for so long that I know where a lot of this $8,000,000,000 is headed. Quote:
|
||
07-15-2010, 09:08 PM | #10139 | ||
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Please show me the school lunch that's handing out gummy worms. Quote:
You speak as though this hasn't happened already. Here's a link to the Jasper County (GA) Primary School menu. Lots of free/reduced lunch students, below average system in the worst educational state in the union. Nothing high brow about it in the least, that's for damned sure. I'm going to take a sample from March, a time when there isn't a holiday or field day or something to throw them out of a normal routine. 24 days of lunches, 2 of which are sandwich/sack lunch due to early release. Dessert included 1x brownie, 2x blueberry cobbler (w/fruit option), and 20x of fruit. Some of that is likely fresh fruit, some probably heavy syrup canned (I'd suspect the peaches being that way) but not a gummy worm in sight. I see steamed carrots, broccoli, some beans, some potatoes. I see beef, I see chicken (both fried & not), a good bit of turkey, a pretty rounded selection of meat frankly. Now the breakfast menu, that's pretty rough I'd agree. Between the pop tarts & the honey buns (excuse me, enriched breakfast bun), it's low even on my version of the healthy-meter. But let's also be realistic about their options, the breakfast-is-the-most-important-meal-of-the-day theory says eat something above all else. The options of what can be consumed quickly are a little limited (most of the time these students have less than 10 minutes to get off the bus, get to the lunchroom, eat, and get to class. Other cases I'm familiar with have even less time than that). You could go bananas & fruit & yogurt I suppose but the biggest accomplishment with that is going to be sharply cutting back on the number of kids who eat breakfast at all. I'm not a fan of Quote:
Know many kids? I've got the oddball kid of the bunch I've met across three different private schools, he'll actually eat pizza that has something more than cheese on it. Sushi, broccoli, keeps fruit around for snacks by choice, etc (although he likes his Lay's chips just fine too). Now take some of his classmates somewhere & try to feed 'em, like I've done. I described the environment around here, we're the poor country folks by comparison. But 80% of these kids are your standard mac n' cheese, plain hamburger, cheese pizza, chicken nugget kids. And you want to seriously suggest that the average public school student in a 40% free lunch school is going to be more open to foods not typically found on a kid's menu at Applebee's? You're either out of your mind or completely out of touch with the majority of kids.
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis Last edited by JonInMiddleGA : 07-15-2010 at 09:11 PM. |
||
07-15-2010, 09:11 PM | #10140 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA
|
Quote:
Of course they weigh less, they often aren't eating lunch at all. Bringing it <> eating it. Go sit in a school lunchroom & watch sometime, like I have for years. Over half of what comes to school ends up in the trash, along with a good bit of what's on the lunchroom tray. Is that what we really want to create with federal funding, kids who don't eat?
__________________
"I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis |
|
07-15-2010, 09:54 PM | #10141 | |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Bahston Mass
|
And just to be clear about what's actually in the bill:
Quote:
Vegan options for children! We'll find some way to pay for it! http://voices.washingtonpost.com/all...s-child-n.html
__________________
There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think Last edited by Ronnie Dobbs2 : 07-15-2010 at 10:00 PM. |
|
07-15-2010, 09:57 PM | #10142 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
LOL. I thought the guy on the commericial could feed a kid in Africa 3 meals a day for $0.82 a day. Now the US government needs $2 more on top of whatever number is in the budget already (my guess is at least $2-$3) to feed an American one meal? There's no overhead? Really? I can't see you through my computer but this post was not made with a straight face was it? |
|
07-15-2010, 09:59 PM | #10143 | |
Pro Starter
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Alabama
|
Quote:
where do you get that 1000 kids per school average? |
|
07-15-2010, 10:01 PM | #10144 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
|
|
07-15-2010, 10:02 PM | #10145 |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Bahston Mass
|
I'm not sure if he's counting individual schools, or townships?
Public elementary schools, by grade span, average school size, and state or jurisdiction: 2001-02 Just eyeballing this it would be half that.
__________________
There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think |
07-15-2010, 10:03 PM | #10146 |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
His numbers aren't that bad. The school average size is probably a little off but if you figure 1/3 of the school age kids will get assitance it would be around $300 a kid. My point is that this is extra money needed on top of whatever ungodly amount we are spending already. So it is $2 MORE a day to feed healthy alternates. |
07-15-2010, 10:04 PM | #10147 | |
Pro Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Bahston Mass
|
Quote:
Is this one of them ad hominem attacks I heard so much about under Bush? Or is that actually a reply to his point?
__________________
There's no I in Teamocil, at least not where you'd think |
|
07-15-2010, 10:06 PM | #10148 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
Is your argument really that the kids who are given healthy lunches are just choosing to never eat? |
|
07-15-2010, 10:06 PM | #10149 | |
Grizzled Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: St. Louis
|
Quote:
Let's try and be reasonable here. I am saying you can stop a kid from starving for about $0.20. We are probably spending $5-6 already. Now they want to spend $2 more? They could get a decent restaurant to cater every school in the country for this price. $0.20... $8 There has to be a happy medium. You know the food cost is at best 50% of the budget. |
|
07-15-2010, 10:09 PM | #10150 | |
Hall Of Famer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
I'm fine with smaller government in many areas, but I'm just waiting for these examples of countries that have extremely small governments that are succesful. |
|
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 27 (0 members and 27 guests) | |
Thread Tools | |
|
|