The OFFICIAL NHL 2009-10 Offseason Thread

[The Jackal]

But the Flyers return 4 30 goal scorers, throwing in Briere and Giroux into that mix as well. Laperriere comes in as a guy who can log major minutes on the PK and give Richards and Carter a break so that they are fresher for PPs and even strength time. He and Pronger bring valuable experience, and there's nothing in the past couple of years that suggests Pronger won't still be a force for 1-2 more seasons before his legs start catching up with him.

All in all it should be a fun battle of Pennsylvania for the division title.

[Pyser]

devils please?

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Pyser

devils please?

Do we really want to know?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

But he won't have to, just like Osgood didn't have to do jack to get the Wings to the finals the past two years.

Some people just never learn...

Also, don't forget to add how Osgood didn't have to do "jack" in 1998 as well.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Some people just never learn...

Also, don't forget to add how Osgood didn't have to do "jack" in 1998 as well.

'98 and the past two season are quite different animals. Don't even try to act like Osgood is anything close to what he used to be. The team that was in front of him the past two years was so good defensively. That's the correlation I'm trying to make - the Flyers now have Pronger and Timonen, two all-stars, a guy who should have won the Selke last year (Richards), and other good defensive forwards as well.

I'm not saying Osgood didn't turn in any good efforts the past two seasons in the playoffs, but c'mon. Most goalies would have been fine back there, and that's the case I'm making for Emery.

The Flyers have a ways to go in terms of chemistry and on-ice product this year before I can seriously compare them to the Wings' teams of the past two years, but it's a similar goalie situation, I'd say.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Devils

2nd - if Rolston hits 30 and Brodeur stays healthy
8th - if Lemaires style stiffles rising stars

Pelley centering 3rd line, replacing Madden
Letourneau-Leblond and Bergfors listed as on the 4th line (2 rookies)
Tedenby listed as #1 prospect, but shown as NHL ready 10-11 season

This one really jumps out as me. Future Watch team grade: 30th out of 30. Shocking to see from a NJ team that always seems to have guys fit in. I would expect none of these guys are huge names, but they always have guys who fit the roles needed as solid NHL players.

[The Jackal]

And Lou is considered one of the best talent evaluators/drafters in the league, surprising.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Well, when 4-5 of these guys turn into solid NHL players, he'll prove he still knows better than other teams scouts, right?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

'98 and the past two season are quite different animals. Don't even try to act like Osgood is anything close to what he used to be. The team that was in front of him the past two years was so good defensively.

I am not sure I am following you. Osgood isn't anything close to what he used to be? This is despite the fact that he had better save percentage and goals against in 07 and 08 than he did in '98 and the fact that the team in front of him in '98 was arguably better in comparison to the rest of the league than either of the last two seasons given the lack of parity via the cap.

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I'm not saying Osgood didn't turn in any good efforts the past two seasons in the playoffs, but c'mon. Most goalies would have been fine back there, and that's the case I'm making for Emery.

Tell that to CuJo, Hasek or Conklin.

That's the misconception that kills me. That because the Wings are so good up front and along the blueline that you can plug any old goalie in there and the Wings would just be as successful. That's really not the case at all. Osgood isn't one of the most talented goalies in the league or the best, but he fits the Wings teams very well. The same cannot be said for all equally talented goalies or more talented.

Emery could be adequate enough for the Flyers, but just saying that Osgood proves that a great team + adequate goalie is enough to win the Cup/get to the finals is sorely mistaken.

[The Jackal]

I realize that Osgood had better stats the past two seasons than he had in '98. He made the saves he should and didn't really let in any bad goals.

He seemed to up his game from the regular season when he truthfully did not play consistently well. But is that a mark of him being a clutch performer, or a reflection of how different the playoff game is from the regular season game?

I still think the Wings would have been successful the past two seasons without Osgood going the whole way. I discount Cujo and Hasek because they are at the end of their careers and got injured a lot. I know Osgood is in a similar age range, but he's been a bit more durable. I can't make an honest statement about Conklin because I didn't really get to see him play for you guys.

Are you saying that Osgood does not prove the great team + adequate goalie statement because you believe he's still more than an adequate goalie?

[bronconick]

I hate the Red Wings, but comparing Ray Emery to Chris Osgood is pretty goddamn funny. Osgood's exile involved having to play in Long Island and taking mediocre St. Louis teams to the playoffs. Dude's got 3 cup rings, 2 of which he started for, and was a goal or two away from a 4th.

Emery spent last season in Russia because everyone in North America thought he was too lazy and bat-shit insane to play hockey.

Hopefully he gets in a fight with Pronger and they both get hurt.

[The Jackal]

I'm comparing the teams in front of them much more than the goaltenders themselves, if you read my posts.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by bronconick

Hopefully he gets in a fight with Pronger and they both get hurt.

And that's really adding to the conversation, cool.

[The Jackal]

I really hope Emery has a decent season so some people can bite their tongues a few times. Yeah, he acted like an immature idiot when he was in Ottawa. But he was the first to admit he let things get to him and did a lot of growing up by being forced to play in Russia.

There's nothing wrong with a goaltender with a little belly fire. Remember Hextall? It's very wishful thinking for Emery to come close to Hextall, but I'm certainly ready to give him a chance. And you can't really argue that he won't be in a position to succeed with the team that he has in front of him.

[bbor]

Emory was also kicked out of the KHL too was'nt he?For fighting with the trainer.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by bbor

Emory was also kicked out of the KHL too was'nt he?For fighting with the trainer.

I'm not sure that he was kicked out - that particular team may not have wanted him back. But there are rumors that a racial slur was directed his way, not that I'm condoning his actions. I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope for Hextall v2.0.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Why is that so shocking? Just because Emery is an unknown quantity doesn't mean they weren't one stupid fight away from taking the Pens to game 7 and gave them the hardest time aside from the Wings.

+ Pronger, + Laperriere, + full season of Briere/Giroux + Emery/Boucher heavily outweighs - Knuble, Lupul, and Biron/Niitty.

It's shocking because Emery and Boucher don't exactly put fear into the eyes of their opponents. It's a less than stellar combination in goal. Yes, Pronger will be a huge help and the Flyers have plenty of good young talent up front but I'm not sold on their defense corps after Pronger and Timonen and I'm not convinced they can get past Boston and Washington and Pittsburgh to get to the Finals.

So basically it's a combination of two things: I don't believe in the Flyers goalies and defense and I don't believe Philadelphia as a team is talented enough to get past Boston and Washington and Pittsburgh. They could get past one but not more than that, in my mind. Of course once the season begins none of this matters anyway. As we all know it's how you finish the season, now how you begin it (cough Boston cough) that really matters. If Emery or Boucher get hot at the right time, who knows.

[The Jackal]

Well, I agree, I certainly didn't expect THN to pick the Flyers. But like they said in the article, it's hard to pick amongst about 8 teams that should all be in the running by the end of the year, and I guess they just went with a good team from last year that made the biggest upgrade.

I have to believe in my goalies.. and unfortunately that's gotten me nothing but headaches for most of my life.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by samifan24

It's shocking because Emery and Boucher don't exactly put fear into the eyes of their opponents. It's a less than stellar combination in goal. Yes, Pronger will be a huge help and the Flyers have plenty of good young talent up front but I'm not sold on their defense corps after Pronger and Timonen and I'm not convinced they can get past Boston and Washington and Pittsburgh to get to the Finals.

I actually like Parent and Coburn. As long as they are allowed to the 2nd pair (or one with Pronger, one with Timonen). I'll get blasted for this, but Timonen was supposed to be the difference maker between the 08 series and the 09 series. He was a non factor in this series, repeatedly getting abused by Crosby's line. Part of that might have been taking a wicked hit early from Kunitz in the series, but he has never been impressive to me since coming to Philly.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I think you are selling Osgood a little short. Sure, he didn't have to carry that team to 1-0 wins, but he was infinitely better in the postseason than regular season last year.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

'98 and the past two season are quite different animals. Don't even try to act like Osgood is anything close to what he used to be. The team that was in front of him the past two years was so good defensively. That's the correlation I'm trying to make - the Flyers now have Pronger and Timonen, two all-stars, a guy who should have won the Selke last year (Richards), and other good defensive forwards as well.

I'm not saying Osgood didn't turn in any good efforts the past two seasons in the playoffs, but c'mon. Most goalies would have been fine back there, and that's the case I'm making for Emery.

The Flyers have a ways to go in terms of chemistry and on-ice product this year before I can seriously compare them to the Wings' teams of the past two years, but it's a similar goalie situation, I'd say.

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I realize that Osgood had better stats the past two seasons than he had in '98. He made the saves he should and didn't really let in any bad goals.

He seemed to up his game from the regular season when he truthfully did not play consistently well. But is that a mark of him being a clutch performer, or a reflection of how different the playoff game is from the regular season game?

I still think the Wings would have been successful the past two seasons without Osgood going the whole way. I discount Cujo and Hasek because they are at the end of their careers and got injured a lot. I know Osgood is in a similar age range, but he's been a bit more durable. I can't make an honest statement about Conklin because I didn't really get to see him play for you guys.

Are you saying that Osgood does not prove the great team + adequate goalie statement because you believe he's still more than an adequate goalie?

Even after Osgood is in the HOF with his top-5 stats and multiple SC rings, people will STILL say he was never any good. Too bad really.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I actually like Parent and Coburn. As long as they are allowed to the 2nd pair (or one with Pronger, one with Timonen). I'll get blasted for this, but Timonen was supposed to be the difference maker between the 08 series and the 09 series. He was a non factor in this series, repeatedly getting abused by Crosby's line. Part of that might have been taking a wicked hit early from Kunitz in the series, but he has never been impressive to me since coming to Philly.

Timonen isn't a shut-down defenseman. He's an all-star based on positioning, being able to log a ton of minutes, passing and skating ability - but he's undersized and though he'll block shots, he's not going to be pushing around Crosby. Hopefully that's what Pronger will do - and hopefully he will teach Coburn how to use his body.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Even after Osgood is in the HOF with his top-5 stats and multiple SC rings, people will STILL say he was never any good. Too bad really.

I never said he was never any good!

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I never said he was never any good!

Not exactly in those words, true. But to say that any goalie could win with that team is like saying Ozzie is no good.

With over 400 career wins and 3 SC rings, he deserves more respect than most people give him. Not singling you out, just making an observation.

[Dr. Sak]

And again starts our monthly Osgood debate.

[MikeVic]

I don't know what it is about Osgood. He's solid and has nice stats, but I never saw him as a HOFer. Maybe the teams he was on were so good that it makes him seem better than he is? I don't know.

[JPhillips]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

And again starts our monthly Osgood debate.

Osgood is fine and he's been about as good of a replacement as possible, but come on, there wouldn't be a Sunday Morning without Charles Kuralt.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Question to all the Osgood-loving Red Wing fans that defend him based on stats and cups put up while sitting behind a 6 time Norris trophy winner: what does it say when Stevie Y leaves Ozzy out of the Olympic team invites?

Answer: He's not as good as you think he is.

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

I am baffled by this post.

Most people don't think Osgood is that good. I am pretty sure that those who think he's good (like me), would have been shocked to see him invited the Olympic team tryouts. Shocked. If he had been, I would have considered it a surprising case of nepotism (especially since that's not how Yzerman rolls).

Osgood-loving fans defend him against all those Osgood-hating fans (which are the majority). He's better than most people give him credit for and has shown a tendency to step up during the playoffs. He's a good, dependable goalie and is the perfect fit for the right team. I don't think he'd make the cut as one of Canada's top 5 goalies.

Answer: Osgood is exactly as good as I think he is and his lack of an invitation to the Canadian Olympic team doesn't change that one iota, since I never considered him in that class.

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I think he would actually do pretty well in that type of situation. I think a lot of his problems in the past involved a lack of focus, especially during the season. I know he has his detractors, but how can any goalie in the NHL with 400 victories not be good? He should make the HOF someday, and if not it would be a shame.

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

See, this is the kind of guy I was targeting

But in seriousness... really? HOF? Osgood?

If Osgood is a hall of fame goalie than we may as well burn the place down and start over.

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I am always up for a good hockey argument, especially when I know I am right.

Why wouldn't he be HOF eligible?

• 389 wins (barring injury he will top 400 this season) - 10th all time
• 3 Stanley Cup rings
• 2.47 career GAA, only worse than Brodeur and Plante from the top 10 goalies in career wins

Here is a link to the site I used for my information:

NHL.com - Stats: Career Stats - Regular season - Goalie - Goalie Career Leaders - Career Wins

I see no reason to continue this argument. Let's get the thread back to the Rangers and Canadiens spending like drunken sailors.

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

Yes, he's won a lot of games... behind teams that mostly prevented the opposition from taking many shots, and especially few quality shots.

Lets look at this another way: he's never won a Vezina and as far as I can tell was only a finalist once (95-96). How many of those other top 10 goalies on your list can you say that about? Only Cujo, and even he was a finalist more than once (looks like he was 2nd or 3rd at least three times).

Osgood racked up wins behind some amazing teams, and was never considered a top-flight goalie at any point in his career. Even his own fans (see H_B above) admit that he isn't really a contender for one of the top 5 positions on the Canadian Olympic team, and this is coming off a couple of his best playoff runs ever.

Sorry, but he's not a Hall of Famer.

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

The "Is Chris Osgood a Hall of Famer" debate gets raised at least once a month on Detroit sports talk radio and more than that during hockey season.

I could care less. I can't stand Hall of Fame debates, but that's just a personal thing.

That said, I have stopped doubting Chris Osgood. Despite whatever perception there is of him out there, until he starts to breakdown or really craps the bed in the playoffs, I am not worrying about Detroit's goaltending so long as he's the starter. While the opposing goalie may be better than Osgood, Detroit's goaltending is no bigger concern to me than it would be if I were a fan of any other team with any other goalie in net.

Originally Posted by Fidatelo

This is fair enough, but 'solid' should not get someone in the HoF.

Here's a summary of last month's Chris Osgood debate!

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Here's a summary of last month's Chris Osgood debate!

Nice bit of research here. ++1!!

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Timonen isn't a shut-down defenseman. He's an all-star based on positioning, being able to log a ton of minutes, passing and skating ability - but he's undersized and though he'll block shots, he's not going to be pushing around Crosby. Hopefully that's what Pronger will do - and hopefully he will teach Coburn how to use his body.

Lidstrom doesn't hit either, plays a positional game, logs a ton of time and is a superb passer, but he's considered a shutdown guy.

I realize Lidstrom is the gold standard, but paying the guy you described $6.3M a year sounds like an overpayment.

[Chubby]

Sabres please?

[samifan24]

Far too much Osgood talk in this thread.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

I realize Lidstrom is the gold standard, but paying the guy you described $6.3M a year sounds like an overpayment.

Agreed. I'm not upset about having Timonen on my team, though. Possibly the most underrated defenseman in the league. He's not going to be the guy that pushes you around, but having watched him for a few years (including some in Nashville), he's quite good. He's certainly not Lidstrom, but with Pronger on board this is going to be a hell of a defensive corps.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Agreed. I'm not upset about having Timonen on my team, though. Possibly the most underrated defenseman in the league. He's not going to be the guy that pushes you around, but having watched him for a few years (including some in Nashville), he's quite good. He's certainly not Lidstrom, but with Pronger on board this is going to be a hell of a defensive corps.

I wouldn't trade Timonen for anyone on the Pens defensive roster. He is underrated by all accounts and to be honest, I don't really mind too much about his 6.3 mil a year salary, same goes with Briere's salary. The Flyers were committed to not having another bad season so they made a splash with a few signings and trades. Unlike other teams in the league who are more content on hoarding draft picks and being bad for a few years.

Kimmo is point man on the power play and I think one of the reasons he (like Carter and Richards) did not shine at the end of the season was that they just played too many minutes during the course of the year.

Now with Pronger coming in that will take some of the pressure of Kimmo and I really like the Flyers defense. I think they will go with the following:

Pronger/Colburn
Kimmo/Parent
Carle/Jones

Back to Briere, yea was injured last year but he had a good season in 2007-08 (which most forget because of last year). He was their leading scorer throughout most of the playoffs that year. I'm hoping he has a bounce back year much like Gagne did last season.

[MikeVic]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Unlike other teams in the league who are more content on hoarding draft picks, being bad for a few years, and winning a Stanley Cup.

Fixed.

[samifan24]

So, anyone thinking about playing fantasy this season? I had a good time playing in the FOFC league last season but I don't think it was very active.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

I wouldn't trade Timonen for anyone on the Pens defensive roster. He is underrated by all accounts and to be honest, I don't really mind too much about his 6.3 mil a year salary, same goes with Briere's salary. The Flyers were committed to not having another bad season so they made a splash with a few signings and trades.

I'd argue Gonchar, but won't fault someone for saying they like Timonen as much. Neither is a lock down type guy. Gonchar, IMO, clearly better offensively, whether carrying the puck, running the PP, or blasting shots from the point.

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Unlike other teams in the league who are more content on hoarding draft picks and being bad for a few years.

That is a pretty dumb argument. Didn't the Penguins pay Gonchar (and Palffy) the season after the lockout? Paying out money because you have it doesn't make you better if it's to bad players. Remember when the Isles gave Yahsin big, long term money? I don't remember them winning either.

And based on that, I'd love to hear an answer to this. For as many times I've heard the Pens tanked, I've asked for an explanation, but nobody ever has one.

For a team that tanked that season, how is it they finished 12-5-3 in their final 20 games? Or was it the first 62 they tanked, to dig a deep enough hole that playing well the final 20 wouldn't harm them?

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

And based on that, I'd love to hear an answer to this. For as many times I've heard the Pens tanked, I've asked for an explanation, but nobody ever has one.
?

Arguing with Pens fans about them tanking is like arguing with Red Wings fans about Osgood. Open your eyes man, your team tanked for the better half of this decade. Four years of barely over 20 wins is bad. And look at the guys on those rosters...bad. There is no way your team should be so shitty for that long that you get all those good picks. And please don't give me the bankruptcy excuse because they could've found ways.

It wasn't just the season after the lockout, it was those seasons before. They were a joke of a team and it's surprising because everyone i talked to in this city has been a pens fan since 1984 yet they could only get 5 or 6000 a night to watch that team.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

Lidstrom doesn't hit either, plays a positional game, logs a ton of time and is a superb passer, but he's considered a shutdown guy.

I realize Lidstrom is the gold standard, but paying the guy you described $6.3M a year sounds like an overpayment.

Timonen is worth it. He's a #1 defenseman - just because he isn't Lidstrom doesn't mean he isn't worth it. How many people are Lidstrom, anyways?

Timonen consistently goes against the best players on the other teams, he's invaluable in the locker room, on the powerplay, and has been the only Flyers defenseman recently who knows how to pass the puck with any skill.

I have never minded his contract. Briere, I'm not sure it was justified based on what was really one season of great play in Buffalo. But the Briere/Drury/Gomez bidding frenzy pushed up his salary, and the Flyers felt they needed him to complete the team, so whatever.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

I have never minded his contract. Briere, I'm not sure it was justified based on what was really one season of great play in Buffalo. But the Briere/Drury/Gomez bidding frenzy pushed up his salary, and the Flyers felt they needed him to complete the team, so whatever.

Of the 3, I am still glad they got Briere.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

Timonen is worth it. He's a #1 defenseman - just because he isn't Lidstrom doesn't mean he isn't worth it. How many people are Lidstrom, anyways?

Timonen consistently goes against the best players on the other teams, he's invaluable in the locker room, on the powerplay, and has been the only Flyers defenseman recently who knows how to pass the puck with any skill.

I guess it depends what you mean by "#1 defenseman." Timonen may have been the de facto #1 in Philly last year because of how important he was to the club and how many minutes he played and what he gave the team but I don't see his overall value to a club (any club) to be anywhere near that of guys I consider to be true game changing defensemen, guys like Lidstrom, Chara and Phaneuf.

Is Timonen overpaid? No, not if he fills the role that Philadelphia wants him to do. Everything changes with Pronger on the blueline now and I think his presence takes a lot of pressure off of Timonen, whom I've always considered to be an offensive defenseman. Pronger is a clear #1 defenseman. Timonen? I don't consider him a #1 but if Philly is happy with what he brings to the team at a price of $6.3 M per year who can argue with them?

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Arguing with Pens fans about them tanking is like arguing with Red Wings fans about Osgood.

I am not sure what that means, since Red Wings' fans views of Osgood are incredibly varied from "he sucks, [insert name of backup here] should start" to "he's a sure bet for the Hall of Fame" to somewheres in between.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I guess it depends what you mean by "#1 defenseman." Timonen may have been the de facto #1 in Philly last year because of how important he was to the club and how many minutes he played and what he gave the team but I don't see his overall value to a club (any club) to be anywhere near that of guys I consider to be true game changing defensemen, guys like Lidstrom, Chara and Phaneuf.

Is Timonen overpaid? No, not if he fills the role that Philadelphia wants him to do. Everything changes with Pronger on the blueline now and I think his presence takes a lot of pressure off of Timonen, whom I've always considered to be an offensive defenseman. Pronger is a clear #1 defenseman. Timonen? I don't consider him a #1 but if Philly is happy with what he brings to the team at a price of $6.3 M per year who can argue with them?

So there are three #1 defensemen in the league? That's it? I'm not saying Timonen is as good as those guys, or brings the same impact, but he's a clear #1 and would be for most teams.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

So there are three #1 defensemen in the league? That's it? I'm not saying Timonen is as good as those guys, or brings the same impact, but he's a clear #1 and would be for most teams.

I'm not saying there are only three #1 defensemen in the league. I'm saying that I don't consider Timonen to be an elite defenseman on par with stars like those I named and others.

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by Dr. Sak

Arguing with Pens fans about them tanking is like arguing with Red Wings fans about Osgood. Open your eyes man, your team tanked for the better half of this decade. Four years of barely over 20 wins is bad. And look at the guys on those rosters...bad. There is no way your team should be so shitty for that long that you get all those good picks. And please don't give me the bankruptcy excuse because they could've found ways.

It wasn't just the season after the lockout, it was those seasons before. They were a joke of a team and it's surprising because everyone i talked to in this city has been a pens fan since 1984 yet they could only get 5 or 6000 a night to watch that team.

Still doesn't answer the question. If they tanked, why in the world would they go 12-5-3 down the stretch? Nearly cost them Crosby 2 seasons later!!! Thank God Bettman fixed that.

You point to the team that moved Kovalev and Straka for garbage...but they got better from that point forward. Wouldn't a tanking team have gone 3-12-5?

After the lockout, they signed Gonchar (5M), Palffy (4M?), Recchi (2M), LeClair(2M), and brought back Lemieux (1M). Not positive on Palffy's salary. But adding $14M in salary is surely the sign of a team that planned on tanking. I bet they had it all in the works for Palffy to quit halfway through the season, Lemiuex's heart to fail, and LeClair to be waste, just to appear as if they were trying to win, but secretly eyeing another top 5 pick. You can slam the the front office for bringing in poor talent, but a tanking team would not have brought in those players.

And I'll never understand they could have found ways. Pay contracts they could not afford and then fold? Or hold on to the guys at the trade deadline, get nothing in return, those players sign deals with the Flyers, Rangers or Habs for double what anyone else was offering.

Don't become another angry Flyers fan. When management had blank checks to write, but couldn't bring a championship, did you have an issue with using (abusing?) that system? How is that any different than using the system in place to award bad teams higher draft picks?

[Suburban Rhythm]

Originally Posted by samifan24

I'm not saying there are only three #1 defensemen in the league. I'm saying that I don't consider Timonen to be an elite defenseman on par with stars like those I named and others.

sami

Curious for an outsiders unbiased opinion-- Gonchar vs Timonen

I have no problem saying Gonch is not in the realm of Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger, etc. But he's a #1 in Pittsburgh.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by Suburban Rhythm

sami

Curious for an outsiders unbiased opinion-- Gonchar vs Timonen

I have no problem saying Gonch is not in the realm of Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger, etc. But he's a #1 in Pittsburgh.

I'd rather have Gonchar. He's a better offensive player. Gonchar doesn't really play defense but that's not why you get him. Timonen is a poor man's Gonchar in my opinion. I'd consider Gonchar to be elite but don't consider Timonen to be in the same class. Gonchar has better numbers, too.

[The Jackal]

If you think Gonchar is more valuable than Timonen at this point in their careers, please give me whatever drugs you are on.

[samifan24]

Originally Posted by The Jackal

If you think Gonchar is more valuable than Timonen at this point in their careers, please give me whatever drugs you are on.

You're honestly saying you'd rather have Timonen on the point in a playoff game than Gonchar? You clearly think Timonen is good but better than Gonchar? Look at their career numbers. It isn't even that close.

[The Jackal]

Originally Posted by samifan24

You're honestly saying you'd rather have Timonen on the point in a playoff game than Gonchar? You clearly think Timonen is good but better than Gonchar? Look at their career numbers. It isn't even that close.

100%, no question whatsoever. Gonchar has been a very productive offensive defenseman over the years, but Timonen is actually a defenseman.