WW LXVII -- The Return of Divination Nation! (GAME OVER STUDENTS WIN!!!)

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

So you're THAT convinced that one of Lathum or bsak is a wolf? Cause if both are wolves or neither are wolves lynching Lathum gives us the most and best information. Now if one but not the other is a wolf, I'd agree we should lynch the wolf over the non-wolf. But otherwise we're better off with more information rather than less.

I am not a wolf...and I feel fairly certain that Lathum is not a wolf.

[st.cronin]

bsak, I believe Barkeep meant to type nfg instead of bsak... otherwise I don't understand what he's saying at all.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Lathum

I think my point about not being able to coordinate scans with this many people is being proven convicingly

Technically, people weren't even understanding GRF's plan. I think if they had, it would have come much closer to being done correctly. He should have had the four people to be scanned in the same post as the groups.

Also, your plan and the other one tossed out (I believe there was another one) muddied the waters as well. So I would hardly call your "point" correct so much as a slef-fulfilling prophecy, since you yourself at least partly engineered it to not succeed.

Not saying you did that maliciously mind you, just pointing that out.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

bsak, I believe Barkeep meant to type nfg instead of bsak... otherwise I don't understand what he's saying at all.

He was...and i knew that...i just wanted to mess with him

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Dodgerchick

(_X_)

Those are DDs easily!

[nfg22]

do these feelings carry over to the other forum? This is a first time experience...I didnt think I would care this much...

[st.cronin]

ok, well bsak if you think its more likely that nfg is a wolf than Lathum you need to make that case. My mind is not entirely closed, in fact I'd rather vot for somebody else than Lathum. But I think the arguments against nfg so far are incredibly weak, and what's worse a lynch of him won't tell us anything.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

To summarize my somewhat meandering point above:
We have two options:
1. Ignore the scan info, play a traditional game of WW based on intuition, post analysis, and voting analysis
2. Try to make sense of the scans. Find out the people who are above average in accuracy (good because we can vote with them), below average in accuracy (good because we do the opposite), and in the middle in accuracy (information we have to ignore).

I'm trying to make 2 a reality, but think there is nothing wrong with playing via style 1.

I tend to agree with this, although I am still trying to keep track of the scan info as much as possible.

[RendeR]

Vote Count please!

[st.cronin]

7-7 nfg to Lathum.

[RendeR]

EEExcellent! *steeples fingers and chuckles dryly*

[Mr. Wednesday]

Does anyone have a summary of the scanning history involving the two folks on the block right now?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by nfg22

do these feelings carry over to the other forum? This is a first time experience...I didnt think I would care this much...

What other forum?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I think we can learn a little bit from the scans we have, and we might as well parse this now, just in case everyone scans the same people again, and it gets lost in the shuffle: Neither CR nor Mr. Wednesday are the Teacher's Pet, nor are they the fool. In fact, they're more likely than any of us to have a 50% ratio, which means they're worthless as seers. I'm not going to vote for Mr. Wednesday, since he scanned me.

VOTE CHIEF RUM

So you're putting value into the N0 scans?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

bsak, I believe Barkeep meant to type nfg instead of bsak... otherwise I don't understand what he's saying at all.

I did mean nfg.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by nfg22

do these feelings carry over to the other forum? This is a first time experience...I didnt think I would care this much...

God, I hope not. In character, I'm a student who's trying to save my classmates. Out of character, I'm just trying to have fun. I don't think I'm going to hold anything that happens against anyone here. It's just a game, right? There'll be more games, won't they?

[nfg22]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

What other forum?

The off topic

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

I'm not saying it was random, but I can't imagine that whatever game mechanic was working N0 would allow the teacher's pet to scan a wolf, yet have him come up as villager. That's insane.

Unless the whole point of the N0 scans was that they're worthless and intentionally misleading. And there's a lot of statistical evidence for that.

path could also get around this by having the Fool scan a wolf, and the Teacher's Pet a student.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by bsak16

I am not a wolf...and I feel fairly certain that Lathum is not a wolf.

You didn't really answer my question. There are 4 possibilities tonight:

1. Nfg and Lathum are both villagers
2. Nfg is a wolf, Lathum is a villager
3. Nfg is a villager, Lathum is a wolf
4. Nfg and Lathum are both wolves

Now bsak you clearly feel 2 is more likely than 3. But do you really think that 2 is so much more likely than 1?

[saldana]

barkeep..i am addressing this to you because i have grown to recognize you as a typically logical player...why is it you are ignoring the fact that NFG is blatanly fabricating his reasons against lathum...does creating a fictional case against someone typically indicate someone is a villager in your experience.

i am becoming increasingly frustrated that no one wants to acknowledge that NFG is flat out lying, then changing his lies when he is caught on them...thats not what villagers do.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by Passacaglia

The non-random mechanism is likely affecting who we scan, not the outcome of the scan.

Did anyone else say...huh?

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by nfg22

The off topic

People do get passionate about this but I think for most of us we separate personal feelings from the game. I've gone pretty hard against Lathum today but I know he won't hold it against me outside of the game and we'll continue to be friendly.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

barkeep..i am addressing this to you because i have grown to recognize you as a typically logical player...why is it you are ignoring the fact that NFG is blatanly fabricating his reasons against lathum...does creating a fictional case against someone typically indicate someone is a villager in your experience.

i am becoming increasingly frustrated that no one wants to acknowledge that NFG is flat out lying, then changing his lies when he is caught on them...thats not what villagers do.

I'm open to persuasion. Review for me the case against nfg as I've not really understood it and thus have somewhat dismissed it, perhaps unfairly.

[Mr. Wednesday]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wednesday

Does anyone have a summary of the scanning history involving the two folks on the block right now?

?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

God, I hope not. In character, I'm a student who's trying to save my classmates. Out of character, I'm just trying to have fun. I don't think I'm going to hold anything that happens against anyone here. It's just a game, right? There'll be more games, won't they?

there have been situations where WW has spilled back into OT, but they were alot more intense than anything here, and built up over dozens and dozens of games with alot more slurring and personal attacking than we are seeing here.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

there have been situations where WW has spilled back into OT, but they were alot more intense than anything here, and built up over dozens and dozens of games with alot more slurring and personal attacking than we are seeing here.

Indeed. And we've been fortunate that this hasn't been an issue recently.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by saldana

barkeep..i am addressing this to you because i have grown to recognize you as a typically logical player...why is it you are ignoring the fact that NFG is blatanly fabricating his reasons against lathum...does creating a fictional case against someone typically indicate someone is a villager in your experience.

i am becoming increasingly frustrated that no one wants to acknowledge that NFG is flat out lying, then changing his lies when he is caught on them...thats not what villagers do.

This seems hyperbolic to me as well. Lathum was casting aspersions on nfg as early as yesterday - what nfg has said has not struck me as a distortion at all.

[claphamsa]

some people.... seem to get kinda excited... but i dont go to OT so i dont know

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Hmm, now I look at the rules and it does say that the wolves know each other. I thought that was a topic of conversation throughout yesterday, did I dream that?

You didn't dream this. The rules do state that.

Making path's "generally, yes" response to the question of whether the wolves know each other to be a bit of an enigma (resulting in said discussion).

[Chief Rum]

Scans as of Post #707 (excluding N0 scans)

Passacaglia (1 V / 1 W)-- Mr. Wednesday (W; 506), st.cronin (W; 707)
Lathum (2 V / 3 W)-- Chief Rum (W; 508), ntndeacon (W; 510), Barkeep49 (V; 515), claphamsa (V; 519), Render (W; 534)
claphamsa (1 V / 1 W)-- nfg22 (V; 512), MikeVic (W; 605)
Barkeep49 (4 V / 0 W)-- The Jackal (V; 513), saldana (V; 516), Dodgerchick (V; 526); SnDvls (V; 578)
Chief Rum (2 V / 0 W)-- bsak16 (V; 520), oliegirl (V; 631)
nfg22 (0 V / 1 W)-- Pumpy Tudors (W; 523)
Dodgerchick (0 V / 1 W)-- Lathum (W; 524)
Render (1 V / 0 W)-- Passacaglia (V; 528)

I'm sure someone has done this already, but here's my scan list, similar to yesterday, of today's scans.

Total scans 18 == (11 V / 7 W)

[Barkeep49]

I'm a little nervous about the unknown tiebreaker.

[MikeVic]

I don't know which to stick to. Clap is still there for me because of my scan result, but between Lathum and NFG I really don't know anymore.

I'll be scanning the one that isn't lynched.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Barkeep49

I'm open to persuasion. Review for me the case against nfg as I've not really understood it and thus have somewhat dismissed it, perhaps unfairly.

Originally Posted by nfg22

Can I just say it now? You are all being duped and I will give four answers why.

1) Reasonably we want to figure out who is reliable. Lathum has the most votes, he provides the best opportunity.

2)We also want to vote for someone that has a few wolf votes. Yes, I know they arent reliable but if they are we just let one get away. Lathum has three wolf votes against him.

3) Not only am I not a wolf but I offered everyone to scan me. Lathum...umm...didnt.

4) Not only are you all voting against me, but it is because Lathum(the lead candidate) told you all to. Does anyone think he is biased?

I realize I am biased, but I also am right. Now if you vote for me, just promise you will kill him tommorow when you find my true identity pls thx.

Originally Posted by saldana

1)this is not incorrect

2)this is not incorrect

3)he certainly did...numerous times...he offered himself, and offered zero resistance when he was placed on the "scan list"....you on the other hand, showed regret at the possibility of being scanned

4)no he didnt...he wanted people to vote for dodgerchick...the only reason he is voting for you is because no one wanted to follow him and more people were picking you without his, or anyone elses, encouragement.

nice defense...next time actually try having your facts straight....you keep saying you arent a wolf, but half-truths like this are the staples of wolves trying to get themselves off the hook

Originally Posted by nfg22

1+2) This is not incorrect? you mean I am correct? Trying to make me look worse by using a double negative?

3+4) He implicated me and dodgerchick...the reason why dodgerchick is implicated is because she DEFENDED me. If she defended me then that means I had to of already been accused. Second, those two words were brought up by Lathum *cough* wolf *cough*.

Saldana...and to a lesser extent claph. You will be looked at as a wolf when you kill me because I cleared both of you...and then you turn your back on me....if I were a wolf. I would have picked a non-wolf and scanned them as a wolf.

Originally Posted by saldana

i am not trying to do anything except point out that 2 of your 4 points were wrong

i said you were not incorrect because that is the accurate description of your points...if you would prefer to say they are correct, thats fine.

as far as your counter to 3 and 4, you are changin your story...you said lathum told us to vote for you...now you have not only been proven wrong, but you are avoiding the fact that you have been proven wrong by creating a different story.

and if those two words hadnt been brought up by lathum, they would have been brought up by me..if you notice, i was right there with him the entire time last night in questioning you and DC

as far as your "if i were a wolf, i would have picked a villager and given the wrong scan information as a means of gaining trust", are you nuts...how in the blue hell would that have gained you trust...that may actually be the worst counter argument i have ever seen.

here you go BK...these are all my points against him...if someone can give me a reason for nfg to blatantly lie, other than to save his own skin, i would love to hear it...IMO, shouting like roger clemens that you are innocent is fine, but making up things and then avoiding them by changing your story is textbook wolf to me.

[saldana]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

This seems hyperbolic to me as well. Lathum was casting aspersions on nfg as early as yesterday - what nfg has said has not struck me as a distortion at all.

please see my above reposts...are we going to chalk it up to misrembering that his facts are completely wrong?

[Mr. Wednesday]

I probably should have voted earlier to avoid this predicament, but I find myself not caring overmuch for either of my options here. I don't think it's a good idea to lose Lathum, but we're going to get more out of lynching him than nfg.

VOTE Lathum

[Chief Rum]

Okay, I have to vote and finish catching up later. As of this vote, I have read up page 15 or so, and then I scanned this page. I see it is down to Lathum or nfg.

I said I wouldn't vote for Lathum today and I won't. But I didn't buy the suspicion on nfg2 early on, which I thought was rather trumped up, and I don't have time to read his "lies" or whatever now. Obviously, if they were obvious lies, more people would switch to him. Since it seems it's a judgment call, I'm not going to make that call on someone else's say so in a tie lynch vote situation.

And if people want to lynch me for not voting for someone in a tete-a-tete, go for it.

VOTE BARKEEP

Purely for the data points (which would normally go to Lathum, except for my promise not to do so).

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by saldana

here you go BK...these are all my points against him...if someone can give me a reason for nfg to blatantly lie, other than to save his own skin, i would love to hear it...IMO, shouting like roger clemens that you are innocent is fine, but making up things and then avoiding them by changing your story is textbook wolf to me.

Frankly I got hung-up on points 1 & 2 for which I think bfg is correct (Lathum has the most scans and has a variety of scans so lynching him IS the most revealing). You're right that he falls apart on points 3 & 4. But I'm not sure it rises to the level of a lie. It is kinda shifty though...

[st.cronin]

8-7 Lathum over nfg.

[Barkeep49]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Okay, I have to vote and finish catching up later. As of this vote, I have read up page 15 or so, and then I scanned this page. I see it is down to Lathum or nfg.

I said I wouldn't vote for Lathum today and I won't. But I didn't buy the suspicion on nfg2 early on, which I thought was rather trumped up, and I don't have time to read his "lies" or whatever now. Obviously, if they were obvious lies, more people would switch to him. Since it seems it's a judgment call, I'm not going to make that call on someone else's say so in a tie lynch vote situation.

And if people want to lynch me for not voting for someone in a tete-a-tete, go for it.

VOTE BARKEEP

Purely for the data points (which would normally go to Lathum, except for my promise not to do so).

That is really weak. You're ducking a close vote and not even voting for some 3rd party you believe to be guilty. If I was on the block voting for me for data poitns would be useful. But throwing a random vote on me gets you zero data points and instead ducks this very close vote.

[Lathum]

If I was a wolf would I have come out this morning and said I scanned DC.

NO

I would have waited on my scan and put it on someone I could get lynched like Pass.

[Lathum]

nice of everyone to wait until I'm not around to defend myself then vote for me

[st.cronin]

Wow @ Chief Rum's vote.

[Lathum]

CR, can you at least tie things up and let the tiebreaker decide?

[saldana]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Okay, I have to vote and finish catching up later. As of this vote, I have read up page 15 or so, and then I scanned this page. I see it is down to Lathum or nfg.

I said I wouldn't vote for Lathum today and I won't. But I didn't buy the suspicion on nfg2 early on, which I thought was rather trumped up, and I don't have time to read his "lies" or whatever now. Obviously, if they were obvious lies, more people would switch to him. Since it seems it's a judgment call, I'm not going to make that call on someone else's say so in a tie lynch vote situation.

And if people want to lynch me for not voting for someone in a tete-a-tete, go for it.

VOTE BARKEEP

Purely for the data points (which would normally go to Lathum, except for my promise not to do so).

are you freaking kidding me...im sorry chief, but this is the most worthless vote i have ever seen in my life

[MikeVic]

Why Barkeep CR?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Wow @ Chief Rum's vote.

maybe he is protecting NFG22?

[path12]

Anyone got a vote count? I'm still on page 18.....

[Barkeep49]

saldana: I think you present an interesting argument against nfg. By far the best I've seen today. If we weren't past deadline I'd have to give this further thought.

[saldana]

i mean seriously..you pick the guy with 4 villager scans instead of actually doing something that may help the village...nothing personal chief, i know you were at work, but that is unbelievable

[st.cronin]

I'm scanning Chief Rum tonight.