08-22-2009, 03:26 PM | #951 |
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But the Flyers return 4 30 goal scorers, throwing in Briere and Giroux into that mix as well. Laperriere comes in as a guy who can log major minutes on the PK and give Richards and Carter a break so that they are fresher for PPs and even strength time. He and Pronger bring valuable experience, and there's nothing in the past couple of years that suggests Pronger won't still be a force for 1-2 more seasons before his legs start catching up with him.
All in all it should be a fun battle of Pennsylvania for the division title. |
08-22-2009, 03:48 PM | #952 |
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devils please?
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08-22-2009, 04:24 PM | #953 |
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08-22-2009, 06:11 PM | #954 | |
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Some people just never learn... Also, don't forget to add how Osgood didn't have to do "jack" in 1998 as well.
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08-22-2009, 07:32 PM | #955 | |
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'98 and the past two season are quite different animals. Don't even try to act like Osgood is anything close to what he used to be. The team that was in front of him the past two years was so good defensively. That's the correlation I'm trying to make - the Flyers now have Pronger and Timonen, two all-stars, a guy who should have won the Selke last year (Richards), and other good defensive forwards as well. I'm not saying Osgood didn't turn in any good efforts the past two seasons in the playoffs, but c'mon. Most goalies would have been fine back there, and that's the case I'm making for Emery. The Flyers have a ways to go in terms of chemistry and on-ice product this year before I can seriously compare them to the Wings' teams of the past two years, but it's a similar goalie situation, I'd say. |
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08-22-2009, 08:29 PM | #956 |
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Devils
2nd - if Rolston hits 30 and Brodeur stays healthy 8th - if Lemaires style stiffles rising stars Pelley centering 3rd line, replacing Madden Letourneau-Leblond and Bergfors listed as on the 4th line (2 rookies) Tedenby listed as #1 prospect, but shown as NHL ready 10-11 season This one really jumps out as me. Future Watch team grade: 30th out of 30. Shocking to see from a NJ team that always seems to have guys fit in. I would expect none of these guys are huge names, but they always have guys who fit the roles needed as solid NHL players.
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08-22-2009, 08:34 PM | #957 |
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And Lou is considered one of the best talent evaluators/drafters in the league, surprising.
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08-22-2009, 08:40 PM | #958 |
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Well, when 4-5 of these guys turn into solid NHL players, he'll prove he still knows better than other teams scouts, right?
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08-22-2009, 08:48 PM | #959 | ||
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I am not sure I am following you. Osgood isn't anything close to what he used to be? This is despite the fact that he had better save percentage and goals against in 07 and 08 than he did in '98 and the fact that the team in front of him in '98 was arguably better in comparison to the rest of the league than either of the last two seasons given the lack of parity via the cap. Quote:
Tell that to CuJo, Hasek or Conklin. That's the misconception that kills me. That because the Wings are so good up front and along the blueline that you can plug any old goalie in there and the Wings would just be as successful. That's really not the case at all. Osgood isn't one of the most talented goalies in the league or the best, but he fits the Wings teams very well. The same cannot be said for all equally talented goalies or more talented. Emery could be adequate enough for the Flyers, but just saying that Osgood proves that a great team + adequate goalie is enough to win the Cup/get to the finals is sorely mistaken.
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08-22-2009, 08:53 PM | #960 |
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I realize that Osgood had better stats the past two seasons than he had in '98. He made the saves he should and didn't really let in any bad goals.
He seemed to up his game from the regular season when he truthfully did not play consistently well. But is that a mark of him being a clutch performer, or a reflection of how different the playoff game is from the regular season game? I still think the Wings would have been successful the past two seasons without Osgood going the whole way. I discount Cujo and Hasek because they are at the end of their careers and got injured a lot. I know Osgood is in a similar age range, but he's been a bit more durable. I can't make an honest statement about Conklin because I didn't really get to see him play for you guys. Are you saying that Osgood does not prove the great team + adequate goalie statement because you believe he's still more than an adequate goalie? |
08-22-2009, 09:18 PM | #961 |
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I hate the Red Wings, but comparing Ray Emery to Chris Osgood is pretty goddamn funny. Osgood's exile involved having to play in Long Island and taking mediocre St. Louis teams to the playoffs. Dude's got 3 cup rings, 2 of which he started for, and was a goal or two away from a 4th.
Emery spent last season in Russia because everyone in North America thought he was too lazy and bat-shit insane to play hockey. Hopefully he gets in a fight with Pronger and they both get hurt. |
08-22-2009, 09:31 PM | #962 |
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I'm comparing the teams in front of them much more than the goaltenders themselves, if you read my posts.
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08-22-2009, 09:31 PM | #963 |
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08-22-2009, 09:39 PM | #964 |
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I really hope Emery has a decent season so some people can bite their tongues a few times. Yeah, he acted like an immature idiot when he was in Ottawa. But he was the first to admit he let things get to him and did a lot of growing up by being forced to play in Russia.
There's nothing wrong with a goaltender with a little belly fire. Remember Hextall? It's very wishful thinking for Emery to come close to Hextall, but I'm certainly ready to give him a chance. And you can't really argue that he won't be in a position to succeed with the team that he has in front of him. |
08-22-2009, 10:02 PM | #965 |
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Emory was also kicked out of the KHL too was'nt he?For fighting with the trainer.
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08-22-2009, 10:11 PM | #966 | |
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I'm not sure that he was kicked out - that particular team may not have wanted him back. But there are rumors that a racial slur was directed his way, not that I'm condoning his actions. I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope for Hextall v2.0. |
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08-22-2009, 10:49 PM | #967 | |
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It's shocking because Emery and Boucher don't exactly put fear into the eyes of their opponents. It's a less than stellar combination in goal. Yes, Pronger will be a huge help and the Flyers have plenty of good young talent up front but I'm not sold on their defense corps after Pronger and Timonen and I'm not convinced they can get past Boston and Washington and Pittsburgh to get to the Finals. So basically it's a combination of two things: I don't believe in the Flyers goalies and defense and I don't believe Philadelphia as a team is talented enough to get past Boston and Washington and Pittsburgh. They could get past one but not more than that, in my mind. Of course once the season begins none of this matters anyway. As we all know it's how you finish the season, now how you begin it (cough Boston cough) that really matters. If Emery or Boucher get hot at the right time, who knows.
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08-23-2009, 03:35 PM | #968 |
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Well, I agree, I certainly didn't expect THN to pick the Flyers. But like they said in the article, it's hard to pick amongst about 8 teams that should all be in the running by the end of the year, and I guess they just went with a good team from last year that made the biggest upgrade.
I have to believe in my goalies.. and unfortunately that's gotten me nothing but headaches for most of my life. |
08-23-2009, 09:00 PM | #969 | |
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I actually like Parent and Coburn. As long as they are allowed to the 2nd pair (or one with Pronger, one with Timonen). I'll get blasted for this, but Timonen was supposed to be the difference maker between the 08 series and the 09 series. He was a non factor in this series, repeatedly getting abused by Crosby's line. Part of that might have been taking a wicked hit early from Kunitz in the series, but he has never been impressive to me since coming to Philly.
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08-24-2009, 10:31 AM | #970 | |||
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08-24-2009, 10:51 AM | #971 | ||||
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Even after Osgood is in the HOF with his top-5 stats and multiple SC rings, people will STILL say he was never any good. Too bad really.
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08-24-2009, 11:01 AM | #972 | |
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Timonen isn't a shut-down defenseman. He's an all-star based on positioning, being able to log a ton of minutes, passing and skating ability - but he's undersized and though he'll block shots, he's not going to be pushing around Crosby. Hopefully that's what Pronger will do - and hopefully he will teach Coburn how to use his body. |
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08-24-2009, 11:03 AM | #973 |
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08-24-2009, 11:09 AM | #974 | ||
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Not exactly in those words, true. But to say that any goalie could win with that team is like saying Ozzie is no good. With over 400 career wins and 3 SC rings, he deserves more respect than most people give him. Not singling you out, just making an observation.
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08-24-2009, 11:54 AM | #975 |
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And again starts our monthly Osgood debate.
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08-24-2009, 11:58 AM | #976 |
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I don't know what it is about Osgood. He's solid and has nice stats, but I never saw him as a HOFer. Maybe the teams he was on were so good that it makes him seem better than he is? I don't know.
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08-24-2009, 12:01 PM | #977 |
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Osgood is fine and he's been about as good of a replacement as possible, but come on, there wouldn't be a Sunday Morning without Charles Kuralt.
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08-24-2009, 12:17 PM | #978 | ||||||||
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Here's a summary of last month's Chris Osgood debate!
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08-24-2009, 12:31 PM | #979 | ||
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Nice bit of research here. ++1!!
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08-24-2009, 05:03 PM | #980 | |
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Lidstrom doesn't hit either, plays a positional game, logs a ton of time and is a superb passer, but he's considered a shutdown guy. I realize Lidstrom is the gold standard, but paying the guy you described $6.3M a year sounds like an overpayment.
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08-24-2009, 08:32 PM | #981 |
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Sabres please?
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08-24-2009, 09:29 PM | #982 |
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Far too much Osgood talk in this thread.
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08-24-2009, 10:25 PM | #983 | |
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Agreed. I'm not upset about having Timonen on my team, though. Possibly the most underrated defenseman in the league. He's not going to be the guy that pushes you around, but having watched him for a few years (including some in Nashville), he's quite good. He's certainly not Lidstrom, but with Pronger on board this is going to be a hell of a defensive corps. |
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08-25-2009, 10:16 AM | #984 | |
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I wouldn't trade Timonen for anyone on the Pens defensive roster. He is underrated by all accounts and to be honest, I don't really mind too much about his 6.3 mil a year salary, same goes with Briere's salary. The Flyers were committed to not having another bad season so they made a splash with a few signings and trades. Unlike other teams in the league who are more content on hoarding draft picks and being bad for a few years. Kimmo is point man on the power play and I think one of the reasons he (like Carter and Richards) did not shine at the end of the season was that they just played too many minutes during the course of the year. Now with Pronger coming in that will take some of the pressure of Kimmo and I really like the Flyers defense. I think they will go with the following: Pronger/Colburn Kimmo/Parent Carle/Jones Back to Briere, yea was injured last year but he had a good season in 2007-08 (which most forget because of last year). He was their leading scorer throughout most of the playoffs that year. I'm hoping he has a bounce back year much like Gagne did last season. |
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08-25-2009, 01:04 PM | #985 |
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08-25-2009, 04:01 PM | #986 |
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So, anyone thinking about playing fantasy this season? I had a good time playing in the FOFC league last season but I don't think it was very active.
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08-25-2009, 05:30 PM | #987 | ||
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I'd argue Gonchar, but won't fault someone for saying they like Timonen as much. Neither is a lock down type guy. Gonchar, IMO, clearly better offensively, whether carrying the puck, running the PP, or blasting shots from the point. Quote:
That is a pretty dumb argument. Didn't the Penguins pay Gonchar (and Palffy) the season after the lockout? Paying out money because you have it doesn't make you better if it's to bad players. Remember when the Isles gave Yahsin big, long term money? I don't remember them winning either. And based on that, I'd love to hear an answer to this. For as many times I've heard the Pens tanked, I've asked for an explanation, but nobody ever has one. For a team that tanked that season, how is it they finished 12-5-3 in their final 20 games? Or was it the first 62 they tanked, to dig a deep enough hole that playing well the final 20 wouldn't harm them?
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08-25-2009, 05:53 PM | #988 | |
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Arguing with Pens fans about them tanking is like arguing with Red Wings fans about Osgood. Open your eyes man, your team tanked for the better half of this decade. Four years of barely over 20 wins is bad. And look at the guys on those rosters...bad. There is no way your team should be so shitty for that long that you get all those good picks. And please don't give me the bankruptcy excuse because they could've found ways. It wasn't just the season after the lockout, it was those seasons before. They were a joke of a team and it's surprising because everyone i talked to in this city has been a pens fan since 1984 yet they could only get 5 or 6000 a night to watch that team. Last edited by Dr. Sak : 08-25-2009 at 06:07 PM. |
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08-25-2009, 06:05 PM | #989 | |
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Timonen is worth it. He's a #1 defenseman - just because he isn't Lidstrom doesn't mean he isn't worth it. How many people are Lidstrom, anyways? Timonen consistently goes against the best players on the other teams, he's invaluable in the locker room, on the powerplay, and has been the only Flyers defenseman recently who knows how to pass the puck with any skill. I have never minded his contract. Briere, I'm not sure it was justified based on what was really one season of great play in Buffalo. But the Briere/Drury/Gomez bidding frenzy pushed up his salary, and the Flyers felt they needed him to complete the team, so whatever. |
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08-25-2009, 06:08 PM | #990 | |
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Of the 3, I am still glad they got Briere. |
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08-25-2009, 06:13 PM | #991 | |
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I guess it depends what you mean by "#1 defenseman." Timonen may have been the de facto #1 in Philly last year because of how important he was to the club and how many minutes he played and what he gave the team but I don't see his overall value to a club (any club) to be anywhere near that of guys I consider to be true game changing defensemen, guys like Lidstrom, Chara and Phaneuf. Is Timonen overpaid? No, not if he fills the role that Philadelphia wants him to do. Everything changes with Pronger on the blueline now and I think his presence takes a lot of pressure off of Timonen, whom I've always considered to be an offensive defenseman. Pronger is a clear #1 defenseman. Timonen? I don't consider him a #1 but if Philly is happy with what he brings to the team at a price of $6.3 M per year who can argue with them?
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08-25-2009, 08:45 PM | #992 | |
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I am not sure what that means, since Red Wings' fans views of Osgood are incredibly varied from "he sucks, [insert name of backup here] should start" to "he's a sure bet for the Hall of Fame" to somewheres in between.
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08-25-2009, 09:07 PM | #993 | |
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So there are three #1 defensemen in the league? That's it? I'm not saying Timonen is as good as those guys, or brings the same impact, but he's a clear #1 and would be for most teams. |
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08-25-2009, 09:16 PM | #994 | |
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I'm not saying there are only three #1 defensemen in the league. I'm saying that I don't consider Timonen to be an elite defenseman on par with stars like those I named and others.
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08-25-2009, 09:23 PM | #995 | |
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Still doesn't answer the question. If they tanked, why in the world would they go 12-5-3 down the stretch? Nearly cost them Crosby 2 seasons later!!! Thank God Bettman fixed that. You point to the team that moved Kovalev and Straka for garbage...but they got better from that point forward. Wouldn't a tanking team have gone 3-12-5? After the lockout, they signed Gonchar (5M), Palffy (4M?), Recchi (2M), LeClair(2M), and brought back Lemieux (1M). Not positive on Palffy's salary. But adding $14M in salary is surely the sign of a team that planned on tanking. I bet they had it all in the works for Palffy to quit halfway through the season, Lemiuex's heart to fail, and LeClair to be waste, just to appear as if they were trying to win, but secretly eyeing another top 5 pick. You can slam the the front office for bringing in poor talent, but a tanking team would not have brought in those players. And I'll never understand they could have found ways. Pay contracts they could not afford and then fold? Or hold on to the guys at the trade deadline, get nothing in return, those players sign deals with the Flyers, Rangers or Habs for double what anyone else was offering. Don't become another angry Flyers fan. When management had blank checks to write, but couldn't bring a championship, did you have an issue with using (abusing?) that system? How is that any different than using the system in place to award bad teams higher draft picks?
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08-25-2009, 09:25 PM | #996 | |
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sami Curious for an outsiders unbiased opinion-- Gonchar vs Timonen I have no problem saying Gonch is not in the realm of Chara, Lidstrom, Pronger, etc. But he's a #1 in Pittsburgh.
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08-25-2009, 09:30 PM | #997 | |
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I'd rather have Gonchar. He's a better offensive player. Gonchar doesn't really play defense but that's not why you get him. Timonen is a poor man's Gonchar in my opinion. I'd consider Gonchar to be elite but don't consider Timonen to be in the same class. Gonchar has better numbers, too.
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08-25-2009, 09:57 PM | #998 |
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If you think Gonchar is more valuable than Timonen at this point in their careers, please give me whatever drugs you are on.
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08-25-2009, 10:07 PM | #999 | |
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You're honestly saying you'd rather have Timonen on the point in a playoff game than Gonchar? You clearly think Timonen is good but better than Gonchar? Look at their career numbers. It isn't even that close.
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08-25-2009, 10:08 PM | #1000 | |
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100%, no question whatsoever. Gonchar has been a very productive offensive defenseman over the years, but Timonen is actually a defenseman. |
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