FOF AND OOTP PART WAYS

[Gallifrey]

To me this isn't such bad news, it is maybe better for Jim since the OOTP team wasn't helping him.

I am really excited to know now no one will stand in his way of getting a new game done.

I am there release day that is for sure.
I have no problem with a Porsche engine in a beat up Ford.

[Super Ugly]

Oh man, I was sorry (but not surprised) to see the news. And Jim's blog is so sad. I do hope that he continues with FOF but I wouldn't blame him for walking away.

His games have been a permanent fixture in my life for close to twenty years. They've seen me through good times and bad. If another FOF materializes - and I really hope that it does - then I'll be playing on day one.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by molson

Jim updated his blog:

Jim Gindin – Football Frontier

Oof. To hear he may get out of the business entirely....ugh. Here's hoping that doesn't happen.

Oh, and to hear that when he initially contacted the guys at OOTP it was to make a TCY sequel. That's a kick in the gut as that's all I've wanted since it's initial release. Sigh.

[mac88]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Extremely disappointing.


Can't help but think it's what's happening here. Deck-building pay-$$$-to-win games are likely much better revenue producers than the $35 per year model (or every 2-3 yrs in the case of FOF,)

Ugh.

I couldn't agree more Ben. This current theme of pay to play method seems so gimmicky. These cash grab gambling games are absolutely aimed at the casual crowds, which makes up a majority.

I have no evidence to suggest this is actually the case, but I can't comprehend why OOTP would look to cut ties for a text sim based football game, which combined with Jims work - had the potential to dominate the text sim based sports market.

I'm relieved that those guys are allowing Jim to use all the content created with no hang ups.

I'm sure many of us will continue to have love for FOF and support Jim and his creations.

This could very well end up being a great thing.

[SegRat]

Disgusted with OOTP

[QuikSand]

Oh, man.

[Atocep]

Heartbreaking to see.

This decision makes it far easier for me to continue my break from 21 and maybe give me reason to reevaluate it as an annual purchase while Perfect Team is the clearly stated priority and the base game is simply a gateway.

I can't help but feel a bit of guilt as one of the people that was excited about the opportunity with EA and then again with the potential OOTP/FOF collaboration. Jim has tried to make the jump to take his game to new levels twice now and been burned both times. It's almost like I feel partially at fault as one of the people desperate to see a FOF game in the FM-style interface.

I'm really hoping Jim is able to finish FOF9 and get it out the door, but my ill-informed opinion is we may not see another FOF game and that's a shame. I know Jim is trying to keep people from blaming Markus and Markus is going to spin and try to PR the hell out of this, but it's clear to anyone capable of breathing air that blame falls at the feet of Markus on this. And until I'm 100% proven otherwise I'm not putting down my pitch fork.

[lungs]

Best wishes to Jim. FOF will always be a fixture from my coming of age years. TCY was released right as I had my first custom computer built as I went to college.

No hard feelings for Ootp from me. When I see random people from outside the sports world tweeting about how Perfect Team is getting their 8 year old kids into baseball history, I can appreciate how that’s what is going to butter the bread for Ootp.

Regardless of what Jim does, he’s at least given me countless hours of entertainment for more than half of my life. Hats off to that

[Swaggs]

Can’t blame the OOTP folks for going the cash grab route. I think it’s kind of cheesy that the non-modern cards don’t have real pictures. I’d like to see them reinvest and partner up with Topps.

I wish the best for Jim. I wish he would do a kickstarter for an updated TCY with more in-depth financials and dynamic league growth (conference change, programs moving up and down to FCS, TV/media deals). I would definitely be in for that. If we pay $60-70 for Switch games, it’s an easy call to pledge more for a game that gives 100s of hours of play.

[Toddzilla]

Jesus, the people in this thread bashing Marcus and and OOTP really need to get over themselves.

[PilotMan]

That blog read was tough. I would hate to have poured 3 years into a new product and then find yourself looking at all of it pondering if it's even worth continuing on after being left high and dry.

[Senator]

Rats. I’m sorry for this, Jim.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by Toddzilla

Jesus, the people in this thread bashing Marcus and and OOTP really need to get over themselves.

Why? OOTP made a choice, very simply put. It was theirs to make and they chose.

No one here owes them any acceptance of that beyond that choice, they don't have to like it, they don't have to encourage it.

People have every right to choose to walk away from what they see as a direct slight against someone they have supported for 2 decades.

Its a shitty situation all the way around, but to presume that people's feelings about this shouldn't disparage what they see as a wrong tells me that perhaps it is you who should "get over themselves"?

[bhlloy]

Originally Posted by Swaggs

Can’t blame the OOTP folks for going the cash grab route. I think it’s kind of cheesy that the non-modern cards don’t have real pictures. I’d like to see them reinvest and partner up with Topps.

I wish the best for Jim. I wish he would do a kickstarter for an updated TCY with more in-depth financials and dynamic league growth (conference change, programs moving up and down to FCS, TV/media deals). I would definitely be in for that. If we pay $60-70 for Switch games, it’s an easy call to pledge more for a game that gives 100s of hours of play.

It's funny, I was chatting about this on Discord last night once this news broke, I wish more text sim developers would go this route even on a year over year basis. For a chance to have a say into priorities or a sneak peak into the development of a new version of a text sim devs could pretty much name their price. If TCY ever did come up for Kickstarter, that would definitely be a transaction I'd need to hide from my wife.

Realistically the Kickstarter route might not give Marcus the incentive to prioritize career or online play over Perfect Team, but it might give him enough money to hire a contractor or two to at least hear what people wanted to prioritize in those modes and put some time into it. Maybe I'm being naive.

[PilotMan]

I just wonder if the player pool is deep enough now to develop the kind of game WE want. I know that Jim got a little bump from 8 because of FOFC, but it wasn't anything like he had gotten from previous versions that had better attention years ago.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by PilotMan

I just wonder if the player pool is deep enough now to develop the kind of game WE want. I know that Jim got a little bump from 8 because of FOFC, but it wasn't anything like he had gotten from previous versions that had better attention years ago.

Thats a good question, it is certainly a very niche market. That said I agree with whomever mentioned earlier that I'm absolutely willing to pay a high price point for a game that I know is going to get 100's of hours of play time.

That being the case I would think it would balance out?

[sovereignstar v2]

I would pay $199.99 for TCY 2.

[CraigSca]

Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2

I would pay $199.99 for TCY 2.

+1

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Realistically the Kickstarter route might not give Marcus the incentive to prioritize career or online play over Perfect Team, but it might give him enough money to hire a contractor or two to at least hear what people wanted to prioritize in those modes and put some time into it. Maybe I'm being naive.

But why would anyone want him involved going forward? Hell, I'd think it'd be preferable to dig up whatshizname-the-beer-tent-guy and have HIM involved.

[Antmeister]

Really?!


I come back to check out the message board (after a long absence) only to find this out? Just wow. I have been so looking forward to this game, but like many found it odd that OOTP never advertised the game any point of the process. In some ways this one feels worse that the EA days because at least there was a released product with them.

[Flasch186]

A kickstarter ay be able to have I'm do it IMO as he could hire on the help to complete the stuff he's not good at.

[MIJB#19]

Originally Posted by CraigSca

Oof. To hear he may get out of the business entirely....ugh. Here's hoping that doesn't happen.

I hope Jim finds the spirit and energy to get his mind to what is best for him. If it's FOF, I'll be very happy, as it's been my go to game on a daily base for the past 16 1/2 years. If it's TCY, good for him and his business. I may consider buying it in a way of support, but chances of playing are slim, just a matter of personal interest. If it's a "real" job, then so be it.

[Jukeman]

I don’t see how people translating this as “PT is the priority”

While PT is a cash cow, it has its own team. PT along with MLB partnership brought more eyes on the game which was otherwise a niche market in years past.

OOTPD is a small team and when they originally announced a football game, the original dev was working on it solo before he got sick.

They have hired a few staff members since then but it’s still a small company. 3D in OOTP takes huge steps in every version and animation is still being added to the game via patch. I’m sure FHM has 3D in its feature as well.

I don’t think 3D was in the game when FOF9 was first announced.

Those two games got too big for itself in just the few years they had official licenses.

A NFL license probably would have put more focus on the game. But at the end of the day, I don’t think anyone wanted resources taken from baseball or hockey.

I want a football game and a basketball game but not at the expense of other projects.

I suggested a HR derby and it was in the game a week before the official release day...


An example of how big OOTP baseball got in just 3 or so years is that an overwhelming amount of new people coming to the boards asking or complaining about the lack of GM mode elements. Just a few years ago, me and a few other people were in the minority in this area. Long time OOTP players just want to create their fictional worlds, play historical, replay seasons or join leagues. GM aspect was never a big deal. Quite frankly, there are lots of work that need to be done for both baseball and hockey so I have empathy for both parties involved.

We also don’t know the details to blame either sides.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Robmeister89]

Anyone know how Jim can be reached? He has pm's and emails turned off here and at OOTPD. I would like to reach out to him about helping out with FOF9's UI/UX.

[Sef0r]

...you had one job...

[Gallifrey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by sovereignstar v2 View Post
I would pay $199.99 for TCY 2.

Originally Posted by CraigSca

+1

The dream I keep dreaming.

[dave1927p]

glad OOTP allowed Jim to keep all the coding changes he's made the last little while. Hopefully Jim can find a new partner for his game.

[redfox000]

The football sim game industry seems to be the hardest to program for. Wolverine tried their own before they bought someone else's game, OOTP has tried 3 different times (though the 1st failure was not their fault), GreyDog Software tried their own as well. Not to mention a bunch of other Indie developers I have seen over the years that said they were going to do their own and never got it off the ground (including myself, I was coding up one based on the engine Wolverine was originally going to use but life got in the way).

[Arles]

I feel for both Markus and Jim. I've met them both and they both are good people. I can relate to how this goes. I made a decision a while back to get a day job (right after Bowl Bound was released) and that helped in some ways and hurt in others. It allowed me to invest more in the company and build it to a more self-sustaining business. But, it meant more of my limited time was spent on the business and helping our other developers than in making my own game. So, I had to take a break from serious development - and that ended up being a very good decision for the company and the other developers. I would like to get back into my football game - and will probably do that now that TEW 2020 is out (after I upgrade our servers/website). But, this stuff isn't easy and I've had a few opportunities to work with other groups and none have panned out. Most of the time I just haven't been interested in taking on that massive of a project given my other priorities, but a few times that decision was made for me (which ended up being a good thing in hindsight).

I think Jim and Markus/OOTPD would have made a very good football game, but I also think that both will continue to be successful separate from each other. Trying to join smaller companies/people on the same project in this industry is a bit like threading a needle. I've been successful once, but also failed 2-3 other times. Everything from timing, priorities, money and vision all has to match up and if any are off - it can topple like a house of cards. It looks like timing/priorities was the issue here (from Jim's blog) and that is probably the most frustrating as it easily could have worked out in another window. I wish both the best and would gladly join in a kickstarter to help Jim continue to make football games if it came to that.

[NawlinsFan]

Originally Posted by Arles

I feel for both Markus and Jim. I've met them both and they both are good people. I can relate to how this goes. I made a decision a while back to get a day job (right after Bowl Bound was released) and that helped in some ways and hurt in others. It allowed me to invest more in the company and build it to a more self-sustaining business. But, it meant more of my limited time was spent on the business and helping our other developers than in making my own game. So, I had to take a break from serious development - and that ended up being a very good decision for the company and the other developers. I would like to get back into my football game - and will probably do that now that TEW 2020 is out (after I upgrade our servers/website). But, this stuff isn't easy and I've had a few opportunities to work with other groups and none have panned out. Most of the time I just haven't been interested in taking on that massive of a project given my other priorities, but a few times that decision was made for me (which ended up being a good thing in hindsight).

I think Jim and Markus/OOTPD would have made a very good football game, but I also think that both will continue to be successful separate from each other. Trying to join smaller companies/people on the same project in this industry is a bit like threading a needle. I've been successful once, but also failed 2-3 other times. Everything from timing, priorities, money and vision all has to match up and if any are off - it can topple like a house of cards. It looks like timing/priorities was the issue here (from Jim's blog) and that is probably the most frustrating as it easily could have worked out in another window. I wish both the best and would gladly join in a kickstarter to help Jim continue to make football games if it came to that.

Thanks for this insight Arles. TPF was an amazing product, unfortunately lost for other reasons. We, speaking for myself, outsiders appreciate the difficulties although we/are can be selfish and dream for an alliance that would benefit everyone. Here's to your continued success and the possibilities of another game emerging.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by redfox000

The football sim game industry seems to be the hardest to program for. Wolverine tried their own before they bought someone else's game, OOTP has tried 3 different times (though the 1st failure was not their fault), GreyDog Software tried their own as well. Not to mention a bunch of other Indie developers I have seen over the years that said they were going to do their own and never got it off the ground (including myself, I was coding up one based on the engine Wolverine was originally going to use but life got in the way).

Yeah there is alot of truth in what Arlie said - I've had the pleasure of meeting him, Jim and some others from this little niche as well as talking at least to pretty much most everyone else - I really don't think there is anyone that I have ever had a bad interaction with in the group.

It is tough to find the right fit. As this post stated we went through probably 3-4 football sim ideas (some were public knowledge, others were not) before I ended up finding the right fit with Brooks. He had a game I liked and felt had potential and we've spent the past few years really building it up and it has come a long way.

I also had the opportunity to work for Arlie what seems forever ago now and he was great to work with and understanding when I decided I had a different vision I wanted to pursue and I've been on the other end of that as well with developers who have left just because they didn't share the same vision or wanted their own chance to go on their own. I think that is why it is important to support as many of the devs as possible - if not financially at least with sharing info or helping to bring more people to the games. We might be in different companies and some of us might have products that "compete" with each other but really this isn't like 2K trying to topple EA here...the more development that goes on the better the chance for exposure for the genre and the better games you get to play.

As I always have I continue to wish the best for OOTPD and of course Jim in whatever he decides to do going forward.

[fortheglory]

While there might be a FOF 9....I now seriously question if we will ever see a Mac version.

[tzach]

Originally Posted by fortheglory

While there might be a FOF 9....I now seriously question if we will ever see a Mac version.

this can be overcome though -- i play it on oracle virtualbox (free windows virtual machine). i cannot feel a difference other than battery usage from the virtualbox.

[james17]

I've waited a bit to post here about this topic. Actually, regarding the game, the news was quite deflating to me. I love FOF8 and was greatly looking forward to the final product. Seems to me they left Jim hanging in the breeze. Strung him along for 2 years promising support and then when they had to deliver they axed him. Wow, what a betrayal! Guess we all should have seen it coming months ago but several posts by Heinsohn were always so positive about the continuing progress of the project. I feel suckered in by Heinsohn because of that but any pain I feel must pale in comparison to what Jim feels at this point.

I really hope he continues on with FOF. Like the rest of you I'd be willing to contribute to a kickstarter or would gladly pay a higher price for the game I've grown to love.

Jim has really been great about all this. On the other hand, I'm so p---ed I'm terminating all future purchases of OOTP products. I have such a bad taste in my mouth I find I don't really want to contribute to their business anymore.

[Coffee Warlord]

Sucks, but it's a business decision. Happens.

My only annoyance is I wish they woulda recognized this reality a lot sooner.

[Noop]

Kickstarter. Do a kickstarter.

I did not like the responses from OOTP in their thread about what happened. Seems to me that they were blaming Jim but that didn't make sense because Jim has stated that the game just needed an interface which OOTP said they would provide.

I won't support OOTP anymore.

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

I know Jim might be wary of doing a kickstarter because it does seem like our community has gotten smaller, but I think people really value the integrity and vision he has and know that the game he produces will be of the highest quality.

I know everyone's situation is different of course, but for me, I would give 100-200 dollars and if enough people are willing to do that, then he can raise a lot even from a smallish group.

[xcom44dan]

I feel very bad for Jim. I'm sure like all of you here, FOF has brought me great joy over the years, and I'll be forever thankful for that.

I remember being really excited when news broke of this partnership. I think most people's gripes with FOF have been the 'dated' look and lack of customisation. The OOTP partnership was meant to solve this...

FOF's track record of having a really solid engine (the best by some margin imo), a compelling AI and an overall robust game full of great features speaks for itself. I'm not a game designer, but these foundations feel like they should be the hardest part to 'get right'.

It feels frustrating therefore that the OOTP partnership couldn't get the last part over the line, when we can be near certain that the core game would have been (is?) as great as ever.

Would I like face-gen? Yes. Would I like a college universe/drafting integrated into the core game? Very much yes. Would I like to manage multiple teams at once? Yes. Would I like to create a custom universe? Yes. Would I like a UI that appeals to a wider user base? Yes.

But above all of those things, I want Jim to be successful in whatever he decides is the best direction for him and the franchise. He's earned all our trust imo, and I think the comments in this forum speak that in volumes.

re: Kickstarter, my ~$100 is ready and waiting too. A small price for goodness knows how many hundreds/thousands of hours of entertainment this series has given me.

[Pyser]

ready to chip in to a kickstarter as well.

[Dutch]

Bad news for sure, but not all bad news ends in bad results. I hope Jim knows whatever he chooses to do (or even has to do) will ultimately result in success. He doesn’t seem to be the kind of person that takes decision making lightly.

I haven’t had the time I used to have to play FOF but I’m so institutionalized I still check to see when I can buy the new version of whatever he puts out. I played a lot of different games for a long time and this is the only company I’ve ever latched on to like that.

So here’s wishing Jim all the best, no matter what road he chooses to take.

[molson]

I don't know if Jim is really a kickstarter kind of guy. I just don't see that happening.

Hopefully there's some way he'd be willing to let his fanbase help though. He's built up a loyal group of customers. He did very good work to get that asset, I hope it can benefit him somehow.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by molson

I don't know if Jim is really a kickstarter kind of guy. I just don't see that happening.

Hopefully there's some way he'd be willing to let his fanbase help though. He's built up a loyal group of customers. He did very good work to get that asset, I hope it can benefit him somehow.

I do think that the Kickstarter may not be the best route. Most of the people would would contribute to it are people who are going to buy the game release day anyway. I am not sure how much extra money he would get going that route--especially after KS takes its cut.

The counter argument is that I am not sure how much Kickstarter expands a fanbase. Maybe it works as a kind of free advertising for people who wouldn't hear about the game otherwise.

Maybe something like a Patreon (or some other platform) model, where Jim could get stable contributions from his fanbase.

[molson]

A FOF Patreon would be awesome.

[dawgfan]

Count me in as being totally willing to contribute to a community drive to support a TCY2.

(and Brian, if you're reading this that goes double for FBCB/FBB)

[FBPro]

Originally Posted by Arles

I feel for both Markus and Jim. I've met them both and they both are good people. I can relate to how this goes. I made a decision a while back to get a day job (right after Bowl Bound was released) and that helped in some ways and hurt in others. It allowed me to invest more in the company and build it to a more self-sustaining business. But, it meant more of my limited time was spent on the business and helping our other developers than in making my own game. So, I had to take a break from serious development - and that ended up being a very good decision for the company and the other developers. I would like to get back into my football game - and will probably do that now that TEW 2020 is out (after I upgrade our servers/website). But, this stuff isn't easy and I've had a few opportunities to work with other groups and none have panned out. Most of the time I just haven't been interested in taking on that massive of a project given my other priorities, but a few times that decision was made for me (which ended up being a good thing in hindsight).



I think Jim and Markus/OOTPD would have made a very good football game, but I also think that both will continue to be successful separate from each other. Trying to join smaller companies/people on the same project in this industry is a bit like threading a needle. I've been successful once, but also failed 2-3 other times. Everything from timing, priorities, money and vision all has to match up and if any are off - it can topple like a house of cards. It looks like timing/priorities was the issue here (from Jim's blog) and that is probably the most frustrating as it easily could have worked out in another window. I wish both the best and would gladly join in a kickstarter to help Jim continue to make football games if it came to that.

I know that personally would love to see you give some time to Bowl Bound, still head back to it from time to time.

[QuikSand]

OOTP "place to vent" thread has been shut down. Took a negative turn after Jim posted on his own site. No shock, any of that.

sigh

[PilotMan]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

OOTP "place to vent" thread has been shut down. Took a negative turn after Jim posted on his own site. No shock, any of that.

sigh

And you know, in all that, given all the people who play, have played, support both games, on and on; barely 50 posts in that thread. I'd say it's more 'meh' than OMG considering everything.

[Ben E Lou]

The Solecismic "About" page has been updated with the following:

At present, there are no projects in the pipeline. But lots of new code from the FOF9 endeavor, and I'm evaluating whether that can become a new release in 2021.

http://www.solecismic.com/solecismic.php

[MizzouRah]

Surely there is someone or some company that can put an interface/graphics module around his code?

[weegeebored]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Surely there is someone or some company that can put an interface/graphics module around his code?

I thought about that too but there must be more to it than just finding someone. Jim could probably get a graphics person to do it gratis; the UI design would be a little trickier but perhaps he knows a UX person as well. I also don't know if the graphics part could be done independently of the code. It's possible that Jim doesn't want what happened to Shaun at PureSim to happen to him and is reluctant to partner with someone. A legit company probably would be the best bet, but FOF seemed like a natural fit at OOTP and we saw how that worked out.

I probably played more hours of FOF than any other game, and bought all versions except for 2k7 and FOF8. I think I kept the CDs for nostalgia reasons. I hope Jim produces more versions of FOF but whatever he decides I know that I got more than my money's worth of football sim enjoyment.