The Official NBA 2016 Offseason Thread

[korme]

Poor Knicks fans

[murrayyyyy]

and the Hawks are now rumored to be shopping the new pick (12) and their own 21st to resign Horford. Are they that tight to the cap?

[nol]

The last time Derrick Rose played at an All-Star level the Warriors were a week away from playing 6 players in the final regular season game to keep their protected draft pick, Draymond Green was a borderline first-round tweener at Michigan State, LeBron was a choker who hadn't won a championship, and Rose's Bulls were putting the finishing touches on a competitive playoff game against the Philadelphia 76ers: a lot can change in 4 years. Rose missed training camp with an eye injury, was really bad, but then got much better as the season went on. It's just that 'much better' still ended up being just 'pretty good' and still a long ways from pre-injury Rose.

It's not even that the Knicks took a chance on him being healthy (which is great because it will at least lead to them being relevant in a good or really bad way again, as opposed to how they've been anonymously crappy for 90 percent of the past three years), it's that they could have taken that exact same chance by trading Sasha Vujacic or Lou Amundson or a protected second-round pick for Rose. The Bulls were just trying to dump his salary, and teams like Philadelphia will usually make you give them a draft pick or two to take on that kind of money. If the Knicks really wanted to get rid of Robin Lopez's contract because he doesn't score much or average 10 rebounds a game and any center who doesn't do that is bad, they could have found a few takers who are too dumb to look at the numbers.

2012-13 Blazers:
Lillard - 19 ppg 3.1 rpg
Matthews – 14.8 ppg 2.8 rpg
Batum – 14.3 ppg 5.6 rpg
Aldridge - 21.1 ppg 9.1 rpg
Hickson – 12.7 10.4 rpg
Wins: 33
2013-14 Blazers:
Lillard – 20.7 ppg 3.5 rpg
Matthews - 16.4 rpg 3.5 rpg
Batum – 13.0 ppg 7.5 rpg
Aldridge – 23.2 ppg 11.1 rpg
Lopez – 11.1 ppg 8.5 rpg
Wins: 54

As you can see, Lopez is an awful scorer and rebounder compared to someone like J.J. Hickson. He just gets really lucky all the time and all of his teammates pick up the slack for him.

[whomario]

Pretty sure that they had to give up Lopez to make it work with the salary cap, which (to the best of my knowledge) is not as of yet raised up. Could have of course waited a few weeks, but if there are factors that forced their hand to do it now than this was the only working combination of players.

[Izulde]

I actually really, really like that trade for the Knicks. It's more than worth the roll of the dice, considering what they gave up (and I think Robin Lopez is underrated).

[Neuqua]

I think the trade was lose/lose.

Derrick's just not a good player anymore. I'm as big of a Chicago homer there is but his attitude along with his family's just became too big of an annoyance.

We didn't get anything special but Lopez is an OK center for today's game, Calderon is an expiring contract, and Grant is a lottery ticket.

[nol]

Originally Posted by whomario

Pretty sure that they had to give up Lopez to make it work with the salary cap, which (to the best of my knowledge) is not as of yet raised up. Could have of course waited a few weeks, but if there are factors that forced their hand to do it now than this was the only working combination of players.

Right, since the cap hasn't increased yet the only other teams in position to take on Rose's salary would have tried to do so at the trade deadline. Any team $20+ million under the 2015-16 cap at this point is playing Moneyball and would have asked for something else just to take on Rose's contract.

edit: it looks like Rose has a $3 million trade kicker bonus if the deal took place in July. So the money the Knicks saved there is the equivalent to the calories you save by ordering a diet Coke instead of regular Coke with your super-size fast food meal.

[wustin]

Well this morning there was a rumor going on that Gordon Hayward wanted out of Utah. All signs were pointing toward Boston, back to his old coach from Butler.

I would've preferred Utah trying to get Mike Conley (since he fits into their style perfectly), I guess Hill is better than Mack or Exum. They need to make a run within the next 2 years because they're not going to be able to re-sign everyone.

[wustin]

Also I love that Rose trade for the Knicks. They have pretty much no valuable assets to trade so they dumped some long contracts and Calderon to get Rose. If Rose can't improve his 3-point shot for next season, they don't resign him and have money to play with to compliment Melo and Dwight.

[nol]

Originally Posted by wustin

I would've preferred Utah trying to get Mike Conley (since he fits into their style perfectly), I guess Hill is better than Mack or Exum. They need to make a run within the next 2 years because they're not going to be able to re-sign everyone.

Shoot, if Utah can just sign a free agent who's going to be offered a max deal, I would've preferred they try to sign LeBron or Kevin Durant. Either one of those guys would make the team much better next year.

[wustin]

Your sarcasm aside, I was being serious. Conley has years of experience playing slow, grindy basketball with Memphis. Utah plays a very slow paced game, they just never had a floor general who could control that for them.

[nol]

I was serious too. Utah has the same chance of signing Mike Conley as they do LeBron or Durant, so they might as well try to sign all three. They'd really be kicking themselves later on if it turned out either of those guys wanted to sign with Utah but the Jazz never asked.

[MrBug708]

Are you always this pleasant?

[Groundhog]

There's a very simple thing you can do to improve your experience in any basketball-related threads on FOFC. I highly recommend it.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Are you always this pleasant?

Trust the process

[nol]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Are you always this pleasant?

Yes, just go back to the last page where I patiently explained several times that sometimes because of the salary cap and free will in general that there is a disconnect between the players an NBA team would like to add to its roster and those it actually can.

Getting back on topic, I was discussing the NBA offseason and how every team at this point has been 'trying to get' the best free agent players who can make their team better. I know for a fact that people who work for and work with NBA teams have phones and the Internet and spend quite a bit of time talking to other such people; therefore they tend to have a pretty good idea ahead of time about whether there is mutual interest between player and team.

It works the other way too. I'm guessing Evan Turner and his agent would say yes if the Los Angeles Lakers told him that Kobe Bryant personally chose him to be his successor and offered him a 5 year, $120 million contract, but they're also prepared to go in other directions in the event that it's not feasible.

[CU Tiger]

So is nol the hell Atlantic of nba threads?

I don't NBA much but got into it more this finals and ....this is brutal

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by wustin

Also I love that Rose trade for the Knicks. They have pretty much no valuable assets to trade so they dumped some long contracts and Calderon to get Rose. If Rose can't improve his 3-point shot for next season, they don't resign him and have money to play with to compliment Melo and Dwight.

I do think Lopez is a decent asset with the cap going up. He's a starting caliber Center under contract for a few more years on a good contract. And Grant was a 1st round pick last year. He was bad last year but they had a terrible coach and ran an offense that wasn't suited for his game.

[Groundhog]

I think Lopez fairly easily slots into that prototypical blue collar Bulls big guy role. Grant can't shoot, but if he improves there he might end up a decent rotation guy. I think the Bulls might have even waived Rose if they couldn't find a buyer, so I think they did OK in the deal.

On the Knicks side I guess they decided to try make push for the playoffs, and they probably did about as well as you could hope with the lack of assets they have to work with. I don't know it will be enough though, because they're banking on Rose being both healthy and better than last year, Portzingis taking a decent step forward, and Melo being engaged and healthy. Plus they need to replace Lopez inside, unless they roll out a Portzingis/Melo frontcourt... which might not be such a bad idea depending on matchups.

[wustin]

Knicks have zero draft picks this year and all of their 2017 draft picks are in the second round. Carmelo also has a no-trade clause on his contract. Phil Jackson has his eyes set for 2017 free agency. I assume he wants Westbrook and/or Blake.

[Chief Rum]

The problem for the Knicks is that Rose is even further from his peak than Dwight Howard is from his. If MVP Derrick Rose's shadow had a shadow and that shadow of a shadow was coming off a binge drinking night to remember and then had to play at 7 a.m., then maybe you get a rough approximation of what the Knicks are getting.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by CU Tiger

So is nol the hell Atlantic of nba threads?

I don't NBA much but got into it more this finals and ....this is brutal

Pretty much. It's too bad, because he clearly knows a decent amount, but the level of condescension and utter refusal to admit he ever overreached make for a brutal experience. Mention that Buddy Hield is a better/longer athlete than JJ Redick, be prepared to hear about how rim-running bigs help in a league that's mostly spread pick and rolls and Chris Paul makes players around him better, like those two aren't obvious to anyone posting here. Say that you like Ben Simmons as a facilitator and think he should go #1 ahead of much less developed/proven guys like Ingram and Bender and prepare to hear about how he isn't a good shooter and you're an idiot for thinking he's as good as LeBron and Magic. It gets tiresome.

Oh well, should be a fun night tomorrow night. I do kind of hate how the NBA won't just let trades be announced when they're agreed upon, (and that's certainly exacerbated by having Danny Ainge as a GM!), because second guessing teams is the best part, but literally half of those questionable picks really aren't being made for their team. For the Celtics I was hoping for a package centered around the #3 and like Avery Bradley (or even Smart) for Jimmy Butler, but that's almost certainly off the table now. Think Gordon Hayward is too (though nobody ever seems to mention Rodney Hood, and they're a little redundant...) so I guess the best option that seems available is Nerlens Noel. I'd love a guy who can actually protect the rim on the weakside, play solid on-ball defense in the post, can handle being switched onto a guard late in the shot clock, and run the floor. The offense... isn't great... but Brad Stevens is a wizard at hiding weaknesses and creating spacing with players who really shouldn't be respected as shooters. He just solely needs to be used as a P&R dive guy, and I'd love to see him with a legitimate PG (and winning culture). His ceiling is Serge Ibaka, and he's already better than Tristan Thompson, Festus Ezeli, Bismack Biyombo, who are probably all going to be making $15m/y+?

If we keep the pick, I'm torn. Bender (or even Ingram if the Lakers go off the board) doesn't fit the timetable and I don't know if we'd be able to give them the minutes to properly develop, but it's still the obvious choice imo. Kris Dunn and Jamal Murray (and Buddy Hield who I also like) just mean everyone would know we have to trade a guard so we wouldn't get full value, which would probably lead to Ainge just not trading anyone until like January and some weird rotations. Like Poeltl a lot, but I'd like him a lot more at #8-10 than #3. I liked Jaylen Brown a lot and he's a positional/stylistic fit, but the projection systems hate him soooo much I'm scared. And if you need to keep pointing out to everybody how smart you are, maybe you're not actually that smart...

For later picks it's such a crapshoot who will fall it's kind of pointless to guess. Unless we do have a blockbuster trade we'll definitely be reaching for a draft and stash or four (like Luwawu the most but he probably won't last until 16. Zazic is the more likely MegaLeks player but I'd be lying if I had an opinion on him. I do wonder why Zhou Qi isn't being mentioned in any first round mocks - he looks athletic when I watch him, and wonder how much different opinions would be if he was European. Same if Henry Ellenson was black.) I think Thon Maker would be a great gamble with all the extra picks we have, wouldn't even mind a ton if we popped him at 16 (although I reserve the right to change my mind depending on who's available!) Among older players who could be available in the 2nd I think Denzel Valentine (okay, he will almost certainly go late teens or twenties), DeAndre Bembry, Malcolm Brogdon, Ben Bentil, Joel Bolomboy, Marshall Plumlee, and Gary Payton II all have a good chance to step in to NBA rotations from day 1, but it'll be interesting to see where they land. Marcus Paige is another one who could easily go undrafted then appear to be a competent NBA player as early as mid-season. Please no Malachi Richardson, Cheick Diallo, Diamond Stone, the UNLV guys, or the U Washington guys (Chriss/Murray) at #3.

[RainMaker]

I think Boston should draft Dunn. You need a top PG in this league to compete. Nothing wrong with Isiah for a couple years while Dunn develops behind him. Rookie PGs struggle anyway.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

The problem for the Knicks is that Rose is even further from his peak than Dwight Howard is from his. If MVP Derrick Rose's shadow had a shadow and that shadow of a shadow was coming off a binge drinking night to remember and then had to play at 7 a.m., then maybe you get a rough approximation of what the Knicks are getting.

Rose is sadly just a mediocre PG right now. That wouldn't be bad but he still thinks he's an elite one. Reminds me a bit of Kobe when his game started to fade.

I don't think it's a bad trade for the Knicks. Fairly low risk. Rose did show flashes at times and in a contract year you might see him put a little more into the Summer. But he still doesn't defend worth a lick and doesn't shoot the ball well from outside.

[Groundhog]

Apparently there's some serious doubts about Zhou Qi's age, which is the main reason he's not ranked higher.

Some random draft thoughts:

It definitely feels like the type of draft where a pick in the 8-12 range doesn't feel all that much better than 13-30. I like a handful of guys, but not sure where I would pick them. I would hate my team to be picking spots 3-5, because no one jumps out at me as an obvious guy behind Simmons/Ingram.

Bender seems like a good pick for the Celtics to me, and he has been competing against men at a fair step above NCAA Division 1 competition, and doing OK for his age. Buddy would also slot into Boston pretty well, but it would be a bit of a crowded backcourt. I'm not too excited about Dunn or Chriss. Again though, I'm not overly optimistic about any of these guys.

I like Sabonis and Valentine more than I do a lot of guys predicted to go higher than them. Neither are locks, but they already do some things well that should translate across to the next level. I think Labissiere will get drafted ahead of both of them, and I have little faith he'll ever prove worth his draft spot.

[wustin]

Rumors are Zhou Qi is 3 years older than his current age. I personally don't think he's good. His best competition has been Yi Jianlian and Andre Blatche so that's not saying much. Yi would've had a good career as a backup had he stayed in the NBA but he went back to China and now he's been the best CBA player for the last half decade.

[Izulde]

Although Zimmerman may be drafted first, I think McCaw is going to have the better NBA career. I keep thinking Big Zimm is gonna bust like AB15 did.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I think Boston should draft Dunn. You need a top PG in this league to compete. Nothing wrong with Isiah for a couple years while Dunn develops behind him. Rookie PGs struggle anyway.

I won't be too upset if Dunn's the pick, he has some obvious pluses, but he seems very, very similar to Terry Rozier, even down to almost literally having the same birthday (Rozier is one day older.) Dunn is an inch longer, probably a slightly better shooter (although I question whether he'll ever improve that much at the NBA level - that sub 70 FT% doesn't scream great shooter) but also much more turnover prone. So between Rozier having a year in the system and my doubts that Dunn has any better chance of becoming one of those elite PG's I'd rather target Bender if we can't pull off a trade. At least Jamal Murray and Hield are a different type of player, and I'd love to be able to sell high on Avery Bradley.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Although Zimmerman may be drafted first, I think McCaw is going to have the better NBA career. I keep thinking Big Zimm is gonna bust like AB15 did.

Name the last Rebel that wasn't a bust.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by wustin

Knicks have zero draft picks this year and all of their 2017 draft picks are in the second round. Carmelo also has a no-trade clause on his contract. Phil Jackson has his eyes set for 2017 free agency. I assume he wants Westbrook and/or Blake.

Knicks have their own 1st in 2017.

[nol]

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

Say that you like Ben Simmons as a facilitator and think he should go #1 ahead of much less developed/proven guys like Ingram and Bender and prepare to hear about how he isn't a good shooter and you're an idiot for thinking he's as good as LeBron and Magic. It gets tiresome.

Say more than a year out that the incoming group of NCAA freshmen is not that great and doesn't have any sure franchise players, and get lectured from someone who 'knows college/AAU coaches' who tell him that Malik Newman (averaged 10 ppg and transferred from Mississippi State), Skal Labissiere (welp), and Thon Maker (double welp, he's also actually 22-23 years old as it turns out) can be STUDS. Sorry I don't just sit there and take it when someone who is comically wrong tries to 'correct' me. Sorry that on a freaking sports text sim message board I ask people to back up their half-assed hot takes with some actual reasoning or evidence

The Hornets are looking to trade Jeremy Lamb (who makes just $7 million a year, is decent and only recently turned 24) AND the no. 21 pick in order to clear cap space for their free agents. That's some nice free stuff for any team that had the foresight to be under the cap and could use a wing player who's better than, let's say, Nick Stauskas.

[Logan]

Knicks should be all over that. I know Woj is the man but that seems like it's too good to be true.

[bhlloy]

From a million miles away and with very little NBA knowledge it seems to me that Buddy is not getting nearly the love he deserves - at very least you are getting a coachable hard worker with incredible range and accuracy from 3, who is a passable defender with good size and wing span for the position, and possibly the safest pick in the draft to boot.

I think Minnesota would be an incredible fit for him and would be a brilliant compliment to their existing roster.

Now let's hear a certain poster tell me why I'm a moron

[jbergey22]

Simmons has some serious red flags and it is hard to deny that. He has a lot of work and improvement to do in a lot of areas if he is going to be worthy the #1 pick. The thing you always want to see in a #1 pick or future star is great work ethic and competitiveness since he is going to rub off on the other teammates and how they react to the hype that player receives.

You could tell by watching Durant his Freshmen year that he was going to be a star. The way he would carry Texas when they were in close games and the way the upperclassmen looked up to him was a sign of a respected teammate.

Did we see this same type of respect and work ethic from Simmons teammates at LSU? I didnt get that impression at all. Why did Simmons choose LSU anyway?

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Did we see this same type of respect and work ethic from Simmons teammates at LSU? I didnt get that impression at all. Why did Simmons choose LSU anyway?

David Patrick is his godfather and just happened to be the associate head coach for LSU.

[wustin]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

Simmons has some serious red flags and it is hard to deny that. He has a lot of work and improvement to do in a lot of areas if he is going to be worthy the #1 pick. The thing you always want to see in a #1 pick or future star is great work ethic and competitiveness since he is going to rub off on the other teammates and how they react to the hype that player receives.

You could tell by watching Durant his Freshmen year that he was going to be a star. The way he would carry Texas when they were in close games and the way the upperclassmen looked up to him was a sign of a respected teammate.

Did we see this same type of respect and work ethic from Simmons teammates at LSU? I didnt get that impression at all. Why did Simmons choose LSU anyway?

Simmons has put on 20 pounds since his last college game. He's approaching 250, that dude is getting buff.

Now if only Ingram could add another 20 pounds...

[murrayyyyy]

I guess Gilbert Arenas liked the trade:

no.chill.gilHold up wait a min.....I take a nap and wake up to this shit here.... #Drose just got traded for #Calderon and #RobinLopez ? #HUH #ayeshacurry the NBA must be rigged girl lol #philJackson just got derrick rose for(two scratch and sniff lotto tickets,one of shawn kemp 9 kids and bootleg copy of #riri cd (music of the son WITHOUT #PonDeReplay )����im not saying #chicagobullsGM is doing #crack,all im saying is this move was very CRACKISH....this is like tipping a crackhead outside a #nightclub for waving you over 4 the FREE PARKING SPACE(I was saving this for you big man) #YouJustDontDoIt this is embarrassing CHICAGO....I could have giving u a better deal then what you got....I need derrick rose on my #YMCA team so ill give u ( the cell phone #deangelorussell used to film his teammates confession last season,I have clear sound bite from when #royhibbert got slapped in preseason by #trevorbooker..u can clearly hear him say #OUCHHHHniggaThatHurts and ill throw in two #AllAccessPasses to go see meek mills Back stage in #toronto during #ovofest hahaha do we have a deal CHICAGO?? Im sorry yall but Phil jackson must have a tape of the bulls GM playing with #caitlynjennerBalls or something to agree to that trade�������� #PhilRealMVP #BlackMailTrade??

[molson]

I hope the Celtics don't use all 8 draft picks.

[JonInMiddleGA]

I'm guessing Arenas isn't a fan of advanced stats.

Among the things I noticed yesterday was that DRose had a worse VORP than every single member of the Knicks roster last season.

[Ryche]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

From a million miles away and with very little NBA knowledge it seems to me that Buddy is not getting nearly the love he deserves - at very least you are getting a coachable hard worker with incredible range and accuracy from 3, who is a passable defender with good size and wing span for the position, and possibly the safest pick in the draft to boot.

I think Minnesota would be an incredible fit for him and would be a brilliant compliment to their existing roster.

Now let's hear a certain poster tell me why I'm a moron

You're not, he would be a good fit. I think Jamal Murray would be a better pick though, he's pretty much as good as Heidl now and 3 years younger. Can back up both guard positions as well. Personally, I hope it's Murray or Bender.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm guessing Arenas isn't a fan of advanced stats.

Gilbert's not a fan of a lot of things. Claimed to rob prostitutes, brought a gun to the locker room to take care of a teammate, told his baby momma "F you and those kids" (his own).

Side note Thad Young to the Pacers for #20 and a 2nd next season.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by nol

Say more than a year out that the incoming group of NCAA freshmen is not that great and doesn't have any sure franchise players, and get lectured from someone who 'knows college/AAU coaches' who tell him that Malik Newman (averaged 10 ppg and transferred from Mississippi State), Skal Labissiere (welp), and Thon Maker (double welp, he's also actually 22-23 years old as it turns out) can be STUDS. Sorry I don't just sit there and take it when someone who is comically wrong tries to 'correct' me. Sorry that on a freaking sports text sim message board I ask people to back up their half-assed hot takes with some actual reasoning or evidence.

Aah, yes, 16 months ago when you were arguing vehemently the Suns trading the Lakers pick for Brandon Knight was the smart move. Let's go to the tape...

Originally Posted by nol

As far as the Lakers' pick, the longer you wait the less you'll get for it; there's probably less than a 10% chance it goes over this year. So the most likely scenario is that the Lakers are sitting at the lottery with the 3rd-worst record, and moving up from there (30% chance) would make their 2016 pick even less valuable.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

This makes no sense. Every GM can make their own valuation of where that pick is likely to land, and if I'm the most bullish on the Lakers this year or bearish on them next year it's worth holding on to. It's a future asset, not a depreciating older player.

If we actually want to put numbers on it, I don't think Kupchak or Scott will do the smart thing and tank, and guys like Young and Lin are good enough to win random games. 4th worst record has a 17% chance of getting the 6th/7th pick, if they can sneak past 1-2 more teams that really do tank (batting my eyes at you Orlando/Denver) those odds go up to 45% and 78% respectively. Still, in the likely event the Lakers pick does roll over I see them bottom 5 again. They're paying $30m to players who make them worse on the court (Kobe/Nick Young), the best potentially signable FA is Kevin Love, and they'll probably be relying on 2 rookies in Randle+ top 5 pick in a league where even exceptional rookies don't help you win games.

Originally Posted by nol

Every team can make its own valuation; Phoenix made the right one. At their current win percentage, the Lakers will win 7 games the rest of the year, and there's no reason to believe they're getting better as the season goes on. Orlando would have to go 3-20 and Denver would have to go 2-23 to equal that, which is hard to do even when you're trying to lose; Minnesota is definitely going in the opposite direction with players back from injuries and the Lakers will be solidly in the bottom three.

Not saying the Lakers will have a huge bounce-back year next season, but obviously the number 1 or 2 pick would help them do better than the 4th or 5th pick would. Not a whole lot, but enough to make the pick much more likely to in the 6-8 range than the 4-5 range, which definitely makes a difference in a talent-poor draft.

Originally Posted by BishopMVP

I love how certain you are about this. I already see 3 studs in Simmons, Brown and Newman, with a very intriguing 4th in Maker, and guys always develop. The weak 2013 draft looks to have 10 solid players picked between 11 and 27. The weak 2011 draft had Klay, Markieff, Kawhi, Vucevic, Tobias Harris, Motiejunas, Faried, Mirotic, Reggie Jackson, Jimmy Butler, Bogdanovic and Chandler Parsons all picked after #10.

Yep, OUTRAGEOUS HOT TAEK 18 months out. I will agree that use of the word stud may have been aggressive, and mentioning that I know people as an appeal to authority is a really douchey thing I'll try harder to avoid!

The larger point then was always that there's a much wider error bar than you or any actual expert who doesn't just know people in NBA circles but actually works for a team wants to admit (and that Brandon Knight wasn't going to make the Suns noticeably better... and how is that unprotected Lakers pick in next year's draft looking now? Unless LBJ goes there as a legacy play, I'd say pretty good!). Look at the All-NBA teams this year. You have players picked 1st (LBJ), 2nd (KD), 2nd (LMA), 4th (Westbrook), 4th (CP3), 5th (DeMarcus), 6th (Damian Lillard), 7th (Steph), 9th (Drummond), 10th (PG), 11th (Klay), 15th (Kawhi), 24th (Kyle Lowry), 35th (DeAndre), 35th (Draymond). Expand that further to all-stars and you get even more guys like Jimmy Butler (30), Paul Millsap (47), Isaiah Thomas (60) and Marc Gasol (48). For all the talk about the weak class of one and done and the lack of a clear pecking order this is a really deep draft and there are going to be a lot of good players picked, which isn't a bold statement because that's true of almost every draft. Is any one pick guaranteed to be a stud? No, of course not. But while Brandon Knight wasn't the problem in Phoenix a pick between #4-#6 in this draft or the Lakers unprotected pick next year has a chance to be a player you can build around, which Knight isn't.

The larger point now is that, per usual, you're cherry picking one part of the other person's argument and exaggerating their position egregiously to the point of absurdity then calling them an idiot for saying something they didn't, instead of admitting any fault whatsoever on your side. If you are half as smart as you claim to be in 98% of your posts, you should be selling your skills to one of the NBA teams you constantly tell us you know people at instead of posting on a message board with peons like us. But it's the same level of condescension that has you claiming the average American voter hasn't even heard of twitter in the political thread, and the same defensiveness that had you going back over the top with ISiddiqui multiple times and even creating diagrams instead of just admitting that over 50% of people have heard of it and people aren't quite as dumb as you constantly imply.


In actual basketball news, Brooklyn traded Thad Young to the Pacers for the #20 pick. I guess theoretically multiple good FA's could sign in Brooklyn as they have more cap space, but as a fan of the team with their next 2 1st round picks, giggity giggity.

[murrayyyyy]

Other notes, Charlotte is shopping 22 + Hawes or Lamb for what I can only assume is a bag of old basketballs that say Stern on them.

Rumors going around Philly is going all in and trying to get #3 from the C's tonight. (didn't think this class is that strong)

[MrBug708]

Buddy strikes me as a guy who will always be an occasional starter or 6th man who can put up points. Who knows what he'll be, but I think teams will try and figure out where that value lies in the draft. At the second spot, the Lakers would be foolish to draft him because that's a spot where you need to go for an all star. But maybe in the 10-16?

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by molson

I hope the Celtics don't use all 8 draft picks.

If they do it'll be with 4+ draft and stashes. Still can't believe Charlotte turned down like 5 picks including one of the BK ones for Frank Kaminsky, but if we do pull off any deal I'm sure it'll include a fairly ridiculous number of picks since everyone knows we literally don't have the roster space. But let's be honest, anybody who says they have any clue about what Ainge is planning is lying. Even he doesn't even know right now what he'll do tonight.

It is sounding more likely Kris Dunn will be the pick at #3, but I still think he'll immediately be getting shopped to every other lottery team picking after us.

[murrayyyyy]

Originally Posted by MrBug708

Buddy strikes me as a guy who will always be an occasional starter or 6th man who can put up points. Who knows what he'll be, but I think teams will try and figure out where that value lies in the draft. At the second spot, the Lakers would be foolish to draft him because that's a spot where you need to go for an all star. But maybe in the 10-16?

Brandon Roy with decent knees? By no means #2 overall but I'd think he would be long gone by 16. Has a decent wingspan for a shorter 2.

[nol]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm guessing Arenas isn't a fan of advanced stats.

Among the things I noticed yesterday was that DRose had a worse VORP than every single member of the Knicks roster last season.

Yeah, I was gonna mention that: his VORP was worse than any player in the league 6'4 or under who played more than garbage time minutes (that's about 100 players), but at the same time he was literally playing with double vision early in the year and if you were to bet on anyone in the bottom half in the list ending up as the 15th-20th best point guard in the league next year it'd be him. In other words, he's the new, point guard equivalent of Kobe, but at least there's only one year left on his contract if he's awful again. Certainly a dice roll, but it's closer to a 100-sided die than a 6-sided one.

[wustin]

Pacers looking pretty strong. Looks like they have their smallball lineup assembled. If they can't ship Ellis anywhere he should come off the bench as the 6th man.

[nol]

The larger point then was always that there's a much wider error bar than you or any actual expert who doesn't just know people in NBA circles but actually works for a team wants to admit (and that Brandon Knight wasn't going to make the Suns noticeably better... and how is that unprotected Lakers pick in next year's draft looking now?

At this point, still quite uncertain. There's some chance the Lakers make a big free agent splash, a much bigger chance (based on them apparently preferring Russell over Okafor and now Ingram over Simmons and also jettisoning Byron Scott in favor of someone from a team that plays modern basketball) the Lakers realize the smarter move is to tank again and keep the top-3 protected pick in a better draft than this year's, and then of course the probability that everything goes how you'd think with the Lakers still being a non-playoff team outside the top 3 but having the ping-pong balls bouncing their way.

I obviously liked the move for Philadelphia (which got KILLED for that trade and now appear to certainly to have made out the best from it) but I was pointing out that it was better in such a marginal fashion (a pick that certainly wasn't coming in 2015 like you thought, didn't come in 2016, may not come in 2017, and by that point you've given the Los Angeles Lakers three more high lottery picks and three summers to land a free agent who makes that pick come much later in the draft) that I didn't hate it for the Suns - especially compared to how many people thought Milwaukee 'won' that trade, which pretty much singlehandedly transformed the Bucks from a 4-5 seed to a lottery team.

Plus there's the whole 'you gave up a decent player for the chance of a better player who won't be arriving for another 3-4 years' angle that certainly has some weight, but not nearly as much as others believe. If you gave me advance warning back in 2014 that Eric Bledsoe and Knight were going to miss most of this season, I'd certainly have adjusted my opinion from 'meh' to 'yuck horrible move.' So I certainly understand error bars and that even at the low range of their error bar the Suns have a decent player who's going to be making less money until 2020 than some players who have never even started in the NBA will be getting this summer. At the same time, pretty funny that is the kind of move that literally got Sam Hinkie fired: the 76ers with Brandon Knight instead of this as-of-yet immaterial draft pick would certainly have won enough games to be 'competitive' and likely out of no. 1 pick range and people would have been totally fine with it! Over the course of 1.5 seasons during which LeBron James destroyed every Eastern Conference team in the playoffs without having to play a series at much more than 85 percent intensity, the Sixers were never in playoff contention, which was apparently the most horrible thing in the world at the time and now is pretty much unanimously a good trade for them.

The larger point now is that, per usual, you're cherry picking one part of the other person's argument and exaggerating their position egregiously to the point of absurdity

That's called humor. If you can't laugh while imagining ISiddiqui sitting at a diner in Middle America trying to chat with the 60-year-old waitress about the blowback from what someone said on Twitter and realize it was only a slight exaggeration from what he was trying to convey, then I'm 100 percent okay with it upsetting you.

In actual basketball news, Brooklyn traded Thad Young to the Pacers for the #20 pick. I guess theoretically multiple good FA's could sign in Brooklyn as they have more cap space, but as a fan of the team with their next 2 1st round picks, giggity giggity.

OH NO THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT TO THE HOLY GAME OF BASKETBALL! I WILL STAY UP AT NIGHT AND CRY FOR ALL THE LIFE-LONG BROOKLYN NETS FANS OUT THERE WHO WILL NEVER LOVE THEIR TEAM AGAIN.

Kind of a bad trade for the Pacers because if they're playing fast Young is really an upgrade over C.J. Miles at the 4 because Young doesn't shoot 3s, but can't knock it too much if the Pacers don't think anyone there at 20 is going to make much of a difference.

[Atocep]

Hield's problems are he doesn't handle or pass the ball well and he doesn't defend anyone.

He's arguably the best catch and shoot guy to come out in recent memory, but his game really isn't much more than that right now.