Draft Day Sports Football

[Balldog]

Dec 23 is coming to an end...

[Dutch]

From a forum member on their web-site.

This just posted on Facebook....

We apologize for the delay in the DDS:PF16 launch - we are working hard to get everything through the system and will absolutely post again as soon as all of the issues are taken care of. Thanks for your patience and desire to get playing!

[jbergey22]

Looks like it was released

[Balldog]

Very interested to hear initial impressions

[LastWhiteSoxFanStanding]

There is a demo as well.

[Gary Gorski]

The game has been released and my thanks in advance to anyone who checks it out, offers feedback and hopefully buys it to support Brooks' efforts and the continued advancement of the game.

Someone mentioned "rhetoric" about the game being for a different audience and being upset with that. DDSPF is not FOF with a much better interface - that's not the goal of the game. Brooks has based his engine off of different elements than Jim. That's why DDSPF has a 2D game display and FOF likely never will.

I can say that things from the PFS days have been addressed in development and in beta testing. There will always be room to improve those issues and with your support and feedback those things can and will improve over time. We had a couple blog posts about the basic intro to the game and some about improvements from PFS and there's a free demo of course which will cost you nothing but some time.

I hope everyone will keep an open mind and see this as an opportunity to help bring another football game to the place you individually want one to go. Brooks and Asger have been very receptive and worked hard to tweak some long term concerns and I specifically mentioned feedback from this thread to them and efforts were made to improve those concerns so your feedback is noticed and heard and acted upon.

Thanks again to everyone who checks it out - I like to look at this as the start of a great franchise but it's going to take time, feedback and support to get there from the good bones it started with.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

Brooks and Asger have been very receptive and worked hard to tweak some long term concerns and I specifically mentioned feedback from this thread to them and efforts were made to improve those concerns so your feedback is noticed and heard and acted upon.

Am I missing something, or is part of the effort made to improve those concerns is to make sure that some of them can't be easily seen by removing the "sim multiple seasons" button???" Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

[Ben E Lou]

On the one hand, speed appears to have gotten a nerf. On the other, residual effect appears to be near-broken rushing stats. Here are ypc numbers for every RB over 1,000 yards in first season:

Season	G	GS	RushAtt	RushYds	YPC
2015	16	16	278	1028	3.70
2015	15	15	354	1380	3.90
2015	16	16	283	1149	4.06
2015	16	16	368	1338	3.64
2015	16	16	388	1408	3.63
2015	16	16	297	1182	3.98
2015	16	16	381	1444	3.79
2015	16	16	469	1663	3.55
2015	16	16	386	1432	3.71
2015	15	15	379	1376	3.63
2015	16	16	444	1656	3.73
2015	16	16	411	1495	3.64
2015	16	16	261	1026	3.93
2015	15	15	393	1251	3.18
2015	16	16	411	1455	3.54
2015	16	16	455	1570	3.45
2015	16	16	397	1476	3.72
2015	16	16	281	1064	3.79
2015	15	15	447	1645	3.68
2015	16	16	323	1309	4.05
2015	14	14	379	1430	3.77
2015	16	16	359	1315	3.66
2015	15	15	439	1528	3.48
2015	16	16	276	1098	3.98

(Also, I suppose one way to avoid the issue of some dude being reported as the career ypc leader with 4 carries for 90 yards is to...remove the career ypc leader stat. *shurg*)

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Am I missing something, or is part of the effort made to improve those concerns is to make sure that some of them can't be easily seen by removing the "sim multiple seasons" button???" Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Looked around a lot with several configurations and several start points. It..is...gone. Yes, they *removed* this feature--the feature that I used in this very thread to outline several problems with the sim engine. I suppose that if you can't/won't address the issues, making them harder to find is a smart business decision. *shurg*

No, I will not be putting one thin dime into this version until something changes in that regard. That's inexcusable.

[Dolemite73]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Looked around a lot with several configurations and several start points. It..is...gone. Yes, they *removed* this feature--the feature that I used in this very thread to outline several problems with the sim engine. I suppose that if you can't/won't address the issues, making them harder to find is a smart business decision. *shurg*

No, I will not be putting one thin dime into this version until something changes in that regard. That's inexcusable.

It's not in the demo. Gotta buy it. Just simmed 10 seasons.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dolemite73

It's not in the demo. Gotta buy it. Just simmed 10 seasons.

Oh, that makes sense. "They won't be able to figure out that the stats do not hold up long-term until they've already given us their money." Got it.

Can you upload the HTML output from that sim? I'd prefer 50, but my strong suspicion after manually simming three seasons with the demo is that significant issues are going to be fairly obvious in just 10.

[Ben E Lou]

Dola:

Or just check the ypc issue and give us a report.

[Dolemite73]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Oh, that makes sense. "They won't be able to figure out that the stats do not hold up long-term until they've already given us their money." Got it.

Can you upload the HTML output from that sim? I'd prefer 50, but my strong suspicion after manually simming three seasons with the demo is that significant issues are going to be fairly obvious in just 10.

Gonna open a test league and sim 50 seasons. Give me a few.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Dolemite73

Gonna open a test league and sim 50 seasons. Give me a few.

Thanks.

If you don't have a place to upload the HTML, please look for these things that I've noticed in the demo:

• Extremely low offensive stats for RBs in particular. (League overall ypc was only 3.61 in latest 2 seasons. Last time the NFL saw a number that low was 1946.)
• Very high yards per completion and low completion percentages. (12.98 on the former---not since 1972 in the NFL)
• Extremely high rush attempt numbers for individual backs (7 guys with 432 or greater attempts in the current season...NFL record is 416)
• Strong signs of over-nerf on speed, such as a RB with 96 speed and 92 overall having a long gain for the year of 17 yards.

[Jukeman]

Ugh why can't I have a good football sim for single player? It's like the football gods hate me. Grey dog is taking forever with its game and BTS had some unfortunate setbacks. I am sure this game would be great with time but I unrealistically (considering how fast the game was release) expected more than a PFS tune up and paint job. $35 is a steep price considering I paid $15 for early access EHM which made leaps of improvements from EHM 2007.

I only played the demo and I am sure some of my problems would be fixed in do time but these problems are important sim engine flaws which were already mentioned like a single running back carrying the ball over 400 times despite playing RB committee.

I expected more from the UI considering the rest of the DDS titles. It still seem like I am playing on a spread sheet at times.

I won't give up on the game, I need to continue following to see what is fixed before I drop the coins. It just felt like I was playing PFS with a slightly different UI. Maybe all of the difference is in the AI?

Anyways, I always felt PFS had the potential to be great but just needed more development.

[Dolemite73]

Originally Posted by Ben E Lou

Thanks.

If you don't have a place to upload the HTML, please look for these things that I've noticed in the demo:

• Extremely low offensive stats for RBs in particular. (League overall ypc was only 3.61 in latest 2 seasons. Last time the NFL saw a number that low was 1946.)
• Very high yards per completion and low completion percentages. (12.98 on the former---not since 1972 in the NFL)
• Extremely high rush attempt numbers for individual backs (7 guys with 432 or greater attempts in the current season...NFL record is 416)
• Strong signs of over-nerf on speed, such as a RB with 96 speed and 92 overall having a long gain for the year of 17 yards.

1. 50 year average for qualified RBs give a 3.69 YPC. Definitely low.

2. Yards per completion is 11.77 yards
Yards per attepmt is 7.41 yards
Completion % is 62.98%

3. Yes, the rushing attempts are very high.

Brooks is aware and the first patch should get the stats back where they should be, hopefully.

[jbergey22]

We needed Ben on the beta testing team. Many of the initial issues seem to be the exact things he mentioned back in October.

NFL sim would be a very difficult venture. All the scrutiny, different strategies, limited sample sizes from season to season are just some of the reasons.

The game has changed so much from decade to decade as well. 70s was the decade of defense, 80s was the run game, and short passes, 90s had a varied combination of strategies, after 2000 we have seen offense take off and teams using the pass more often and spreading out the defense to create opportunity to levels never previously seen.

Good luck with this venture Brooks! Trying to create a modern day simulation that can also re-create NFL history is going to be tough to pull off.

[BradS]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Ugh why can't I have a good football sim for single player? It's like the football gods hate me.

I'm convinced. It is a curse, seriously. Playing around with this demo just makes me want a OOTP game of Pro Football that will play as it should right out of the box. Global settings to tweak to your heart's content. With all the stats, filters and info you would want in a aeshetically pleasing package. But it was not to be. How could we reverse this insidous curse that binds us. Give us the kind of American Football game that we so richly deserve! I tell ya, I just do not know

[Julio Riddols]

I'm not playing the game, but running game averaging about a half yard too little isn't too bad compared to before.. The pass yards per attempt seems pretty good though, completion percentage as well.

[AgustusM]

I bought it, but then again I bought PFS, Mogul and really every combination of 1s and 0s with NFL on it for the past 25 years.

at this point it really is just PFS with an improved interface and that is considerably lower then my expectations.

What I want is something in the FM\OOTP class

what I would settle for is something a notch better then FOF or on par with the wolverine basketball games. This just isn't there yet. Maybe someday, but not yet.

for now it is back to a rotation of FOF, Madden Coach Mode and EA Head Coach and lots and lots of pining for a game that has the FOF detail and the 1980s level play calling and graphics of XOR. meh

[Gary Gorski]

Info on the first update - primarily addressing stats

• View topic - DDS: Pro Football 2016 - 1st Update

[SirFozzie]

geez, on Christmas Gary? Hopefully you're not tearing yourself from the Christmas table for us

[QuikSand]

That's a really encouraging sign. I haven't bought yet, but usually do just to support the genre.

[mtolson]

Wow, patch on christmas day. Awesome christmas gift. Thank you Gary (and Brooks)

[Dutch]

You shouldn't have...but its a fantastic gesture. Merry Christmas.

[BishopMVP]

Originally Posted by Jukeman

Ugh why can't I have a good football sim for single player?

FOF doesn't qualify? Sure, good players will always need a couple house rules (or the game would need to be borderline impossible for a large portion of the fanbase, which just doesn't seem like smart business), but that single player AI is pretty legit. And it probably would appear even better if it weren't for some of the MP freaks digging and posting super-deep test results about combine cutoffs, or which bar is most important for WR's, etc.

I just don't know if what people want is possible. FOF is incredibly accurate as a simulation, and can clearly (if not easily) be upgraded with a 2D or even a 3D viewer at some point. But that's where the play's already been decided and you're just watching the result, and even Jim fully admits it's basically his idea of where stats should be instead of trying to perfectly copy the current NFL season. In a game like Madden, or DDS if I'm reading it right, where you have a dynamic engine that plays it out in real time and generates the stats from that I just don't know if those stats can mimic "real NFL" as closely as people want (which for simplicity's sake let's say is somewhere between Madden Sim mode stats and FOF's detail). Let alone if people actually want to play across different eras and have stats accurately reflect those. Even FM, which is the gold standard and has a massive budget and history struggles to make their 3D engine look like real soccer and produce the same stats.

Granted, I do think as encouraging a sign it is that a patch was put out this quickly, it also makes me question why that wasn't done before the release. I clearly don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and I don't want to offend either side because we're all hoping for the best and want to encourage development from any angle, but if someone like Ben or MalcPow was basically offering to deep test stats and offering constructive criticism for free I'd find a way to look in to what they're saying. 23/24 RB's have YPC's between 3.48 and 4.06? 7 RB's with 411+ carries in season one? These aren't some fringe stats or something that crops up 30 years in and necessitates a tweak to the rookie generation algorithm.

[Jukeman]

Compared to other games single player like OOTP Baseball, EHM, FM and even DDS basketball games despite the bugs? No, sure it beats out all of the other football sims in that category but its not good enough. Also, great depth as far as stats and strategy goes but lack everything else depth wise. 2D/3D is something I am not really concerned about. I need a world with personality, I need to be immersed and I need AI that is not easily exploited. Those are way more important to me than graphics outside of GUI.

[MizzouRah]

Here's a good video for those on the fence.. has potential but isn't quite there yet it looks like.

[SlyBelle1]

Hopefully, they put much more into it with next year's version....although a couple of new things, largely the same as PFS with a new paint job. I wanted to like it and purchase it, but for $35 (compared to PFS under $20), just can't justify it until many other things included.

[JimboJ]

I felt the same way, but I bought it anyway just to support the effort. I very much want to see this genre advance, and I want to do my part to support it.

[SlyBelle1]

Although I like to support as well, two way street for the developer to show their commitment as well with more advancement

[MizzouRah]

I'll pass this year.. can't wait to see what a year of development with Gary does for the game.

I won't lie.. the 2d alone has me wanting it.

[SlyBelle1]

Problem with 2d is just a replay, no coaching and seeing things unfold....I never even bother with it

[QuikSand]

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

Here's a good video for those on the fence..

Yes, that was very helpful for me.

[jaygr]

Has anyone been playing this still? Have there been any upgrades or improvements? Wolverine currently has a 20% discount on everything so I was just curious. Still a bit pricey if it hasn't improved much yet though.

[TheRivals40]

Originally Posted by jaygr

Has anyone been playing this still? Have there been any upgrades or improvements? Wolverine currently has a 20% discount on everything so I was just curious. Still a bit pricey if it hasn't improved much yet though.

Yes, there have been many issues to fix statistical issues that have been pointed out, and while the AI still sucks, you can join an MP league and it should be a good challenge.

[tarcone]

And its on sale, as all their games are, for 50% off.

[Gary Gorski]

Quick bump of this thread - with the time it took to develop DDS:CF 2017 this year we didn't have a chance to make a new pro version so Brooks decided to spend a little time updating DDS:PF 2016 instead.

The update is available from our site, free of course, and here's what it covers.

1) New 2016-2017 rosters
2) Fixes for bad team id's in historical imports... should be able to re-create any league from 1970 forward (1960-1970 may be possible but I haven't tested each year)
3) Fixes for CSV export
4) Fix for crashes when personalities were disabled
5) Updated training camps
6) Updated rank players screen
7) Updated custom playbooks (filters and updating of weights)
8) Added original position label to player form
9) Updates to prevent/penalize backs going over 25-30 carries

If you're familiar with DDS:CF 2017 you know a huge difference is that CF became coachable in the 2D while PF 2016 just used the 2D as a replay. That hasn't changed with this patch but it certainly will be one of the updates for DDS:PF 18.