Podcast Interview with Jim Gindin

[Nogram]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

The truth of the matter is that I find Alizee overrated.

I plan a press conference later this week where I'll attempt to define the word "entirely."

If that doesn't scream "Thank you for supporting me all these years" I don't know what does.

I am disappointed in your post. Your disdain for the very people that have supported you all along is sad. All we have asked is an update. A yes, a no, that is all.

I.e. Will we get a new game this fall? No.

Here is a quote from your website
"...Solecismic Software has been a tremendously rewarding experience.

I'd like to encourage anyone who feels he or she has a creative side that's being suppressed by today's cubicle farms to take a chance like this just once in life. You may be pleasantly surprised."

Keep in mind that without the support of those on these boards you could still be in a cubicle farm. All I am asking for is a bit of respect, and ignoring us is not respect. And being sarcastic with us is not respect.

Nogram.

[DaddyTorgo]

Eh - I an see both sides of the issue I suppose.

*shrugs*

[HeatMan]

Originally Posted by Nogram

If that doesn't scream "Thank you for supporting me all these years" I don't know what does.

I am disappointed in your post. Your disdain for the very people that have supported you all along is sad. All we have asked is an update. A yes, a no, that is all.

I.e. Will we get a new game this fall? No.

Here is a quote from your website
"...Solecismic Software has been a tremendously rewarding experience.

I'd like to encourage anyone who feels he or she has a creative side that's being suppressed by today's cubicle farms to take a chance like this just once in life. You may be pleasantly surprised."

Keep in mind that without the support of those on these boards you could still be in a cubicle farm. All I am asking for is a bit of respect, and ignoring us is not respect. And being sarcastic with us is not respect.

Nogram.

What he said

[Cringer]

Crap, I screwed up in my first post in this thread. I didn't mean crying over no new game this year, I meant crying over no 'proper' updates for us, the caretakers and providers of Jim Gindin. Maybe we should cut off his assistance checks and tasty FOFC cheese.

[sidthelid]

I think a roster update is not what the MP community wanted

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by Nogram

If that doesn't scream "Thank you for supporting me all these years" I don't know what does.

I am disappointed in your post. Your disdain for the very people that have supported you all along is sad. All we have asked is an update. A yes, a no, that is all.

I.e. Will we get a new game this fall? No.

Here is a quote from your website
"...Solecismic Software has been a tremendously rewarding experience.

I'd like to encourage anyone who feels he or she has a creative side that's being suppressed by today's cubicle farms to take a chance like this just once in life. You may be pleasantly surprised."

Keep in mind that without the support of those on these boards you could still be in a cubicle farm. All I am asking for is a bit of respect, and ignoring us is not respect. And being sarcastic with us is not respect.

Nogram.

Wow, some of you people have amazing senses of entitlement.

You paid money for Jim's game(s) - you either did or did not get what you consider your money's worth for your purchase(s). If you did, you'll be interested in buying new products from him, if/when they come out. If you didn't, you probably won't. If you really feel like you were ripped off by your purchase(s), you can ask him for a refund if you explain why you feel ripped off. If the game doesn't run, you are owed some level of customer support to figure out why it doesn't run, or a refund.

Beyond that? You are owed nothing by Jim.

Jim chooses to stay quiet with regards to his upcoming projects based on his past experiences. You may disagree with that policy, but that's how he chooses to operate. It's his choice.

If you want to get all pissy because he hasn't told the community that he is working on a new game, and what that game may be, that's your prerogative. But I don't think he owes us anything beyond simply stating whether he's still planning to continue Solecismic software.

If you're holding off buying some other game because you want to know Jim's plans, don't. Jim's method of operation is to work on a game, and only announce it shortly before it's ready to be released. As Ben and others have pointed out, the gap in releases right now isn't historically large based on past Solecismic history, and Jim has said nothing that indicates he's closing up shop.

I can understand frustration about not knowing what Jim's plans are, but to read his response as "disdain" is highly subjective and implies a great deal of sense of entitlement on your part.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

but to read his response as "disdain" is highly subjective and implies a great deal of sense of entitlement on your part.

I'd have to disagree pretty strongly on that point. I picked up the disdain vibe pretty easily and I don't think he owes me jack, so the entitlement issue becomes moot pretty easily as far as I can see.

There's some people he rubs the wrong way, others seem to think he can do little to no wrong, such is life. But those general impressions certainly have to color how people would interpret his attitude toward fans and/or customers.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd have to disagree pretty strongly on that point. I picked up the disdain vibe pretty easily and I don't think he owes me jack, so the entitlement issue becomes moot pretty easily as far as I can see.

There's some people he rubs the wrong way, others seem to think he can do little to no wrong, such is life. But those general impressions certainly have to color how people would interpret his attitude toward fans and/or customers.

+1

[jeff061]

Jesus christ. I'd resent you whiny bastards as well.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by jeff061

Jesus christ. I'd resent you whiny bastards as well.

I'm sure the house he built doesn't resent us...

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd have to disagree pretty strongly on that point. I picked up the disdain vibe pretty easily and I don't think he owes me jack, so the entitlement issue becomes moot pretty easily as far as I can see.

There's some people he rubs the wrong way, others seem to think he can do little to no wrong, such is life. But those general impressions certainly have to color how people would interpret his attitude toward fans and/or customers.

Well, these reactions to his post are pretty clear examples of why Jim has been reluctant to post on these forums. Seemed to me his response was his attempt at being funny rather than disdain for us, but everyone has their own prism through which they view things.

[Antmeister]

Originally Posted by Nogram

...Your disdain for the very people that have supported you all along is sad. All we have asked is an update. A yes, a no, that is all...

I don't quite understand your first sentence. If someone tells a joke, there is a disdain for the customer base? It still amazes me that we get free patches, at no charge, years from the after its actual release date. This doesn't appear to be the action of someone who looks at the customers with disgust.

As to your rest of the quote, I can understand the frustration, but from a different standpoint. Multiplayer is what actually keeps me playing the game and I know at some point the game may get stale for me if the community dwindles. I just don't want the product to die. But now that he mentioned that he is working on a patch and there may be an announcement, I am fine with that.

Because what is funny is that a number of text sim developers have taken the lead of not releasing any details until it is ready. The competitors to this product haven't released any more info than Jim in regards to when it will be finished and there doesn't seem to be a number of threads propagating about when their games are coming out either even though some of those games were announced one to three years ago and there is no sign of an alternative product yet.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by Antmeister

I don't quite understand your first sentence. If someone tells a joke, there is a disdain for the customer base? It still amazes me that we get free patches, at no charge, years from the after its actual release date. This doesn't appear to be the action of someone who looks at the customers with disgust.

Good point.

[Nogram]

My point has been that Jim seems to appreciate the freedom that has come with Solecismic.

A company is only as successful as its customers allow it to be, and I feel as a customer that a company owes respect and appreciation.

I think we all appreciate Jim, we support his projects. I bought that stupid card game and played it for 5 minutes, never touched it again. I didn't mind because it was supporting him and hopefully funding his work on FOF. We appreciate what he has done for the text sim community.

Sure there is a sense of entitlement, I feel he owes his customers respect. I know that in my business if I ignore my customers if I mock their questions, I won't be in business very long at all. There is one key difference, Jim is the only game in town, my business has competition.

So I am here waiting for Jim, checking daily, because there is no competition, YET. I am optimistic that Grey Dog and Wolverine will realize the opportunity they have and shift some resources to Pro Football and expedite the development of their products.

Bad things happen to companies that operate in a monopolisitic environment when competition comes in. At that point, the competition usually has a better product, and if the existing company doesn't have customer loyalty, it is not good. How do you get the loyalty, by treating your customers with respect and communicating with them.

So to the point above, your right, I do feel entitled to a lot from Jim, just as he has received a lot from this community.

Nogram

[dawgfan]

Totally different perspectives I guess - I don't view Jim making a joke as being "disdainful" of his customer base. Your mileage might vary.

As he has explained in the past, Jim operates the way he does in terms of pre-release information because of past experience - in his view, it's the lesser of two evils to keep a tight lid on game development info until shortly before release. Maybe he's right, maybe he's wrong, but it's not a strategy that he hasn't carefully considered, and it's not like there hasn't been a ton of people voicing their frustrations about it over the years, so obviously even in the face of that customer frustration, he still believes it to be his best course of action.

As Ben has said multiple times, do you really think you're going to change his mind about it?

[DaddyTorgo]

he may not change Jim's mind, but he has every right to voice his opinion on it. if people don't want to read it they should just skip over it, but he's got a right to express his opinion.

shit, i think on some level it might be refreshing and positive for Jim to see that there are still people posting + caring + passionate about his game. that part of it has at least got to feel good.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

shit, i think on some level it might be refreshing and positive for Jim to see that there are still people posting + caring + passionate about his game. that part of it has at least got to feel good.

I concur.

I guess my only place in this thread is to agree with both sides.

[Solecismic]

Didn't mean to upset anybody. Some people like my sense of humor, some don't.

The fact of the matter is that I detest hype. Even if it's as minor as "X is coming some day."

I hyped TCY a little, at least I said I was working on it and mentioned some of the features. Then EA asked me to do another FOF, and since they treated me very well and their checks didn't bounce, I felt that was a good business decision.

This delayed TCY a year, which in the meantime took on a life of its own. I felt the release was somewhat spoiled because during that extra year, the game became everything to everyone. There was even a review from a semi-large web site where the writer said he was personally disappointed by me. I've never seen anything like that in a review, before or since. Figuratively, that I had come into his home and kicked his dog.

A few months later, the game was getting as strong a positive response as anything I've ever done, but I can't help feeling the game would have been more successful had I not talked about anything before I was ready to release something. So I made a policy, and I've stuck with it. I think it's interesting, in this day and age, to have a company that can release a full product one day after announcing the product is in development. That means less sales on day one, but I think more in the long run.

Now I know some here (because I recognize the names from similar items in the past) feel quite strongly that this policy sucks.

I worried a little about this when I agreed to do the interview with Glen. I knew that some in the group would respond in this fashion. I hoped there was enough positive in there that it would be entertaining, at least, even if people weren't hearing what they wanted to hear.

By the way, Ben has assured me that no one has been kicked off this forum or suspended for criticizing me. So feel free. I just apologize in advance for the fact that it's not going to change this policy. If I had a bigger company, with an employee handling community relations, I would be happy to indulge in a little bit of hype here and there. But I feel it cannot come from me personally.

As for the "entirely" comment, I was making fun of myself. The sentence is a disaster syntactically. I have not taken a new job.

[stevew]

I hate the fact that Jim makes games that I'm probably in the cents/hour played range.

Yeah, I'd love to see a new game at some point, but I appreciate that we get roster updates on a semi regular basis. As well as fixes. All of this costs zero dollars and zero cents extra.

Remember when EA rebadged the one game(would have been the Tomlinson/Vick rookie year) and basically it was not much more than a roster update. Or if it wasn't just EA, whatever, I'm not sure I know the total details. Regardless, that kind of sucked.

I'd much rather wait and see an FOF2k11(or 12) than see something along the lines of a Football Mogul type game where not much changes year to year. But you get the pleasure of paying 20 bucks for it.

Anyways, no manner of bitching is ever going to change that Jim is Jim, and he'll do what he wants. I respect him for doing things the way he wants to, and can't wait(but certainly will) for the next football sim he creates.

[Nogram]

Fair enough.

For your sake I hope that no one comes out with a decent competing product.

For my sake, I hope they do.

Business practices that work today, don't always work tomorrow.


20 years from now Solecismic would make a very interesting MBA case study.

Nogram

[stevew]

dola-

If you can look outside your window, see a van hit your garage, people drive by and ignore it..Welcome to Brighton!

[Solecismic]

Originally Posted by Nogram

Fair enough.

For your sake I hope that no one comes out with a decent competing product.

For my sake, I hope they do.

Business practices that work today, don't always work tomorrow. 20 years from now Solecismic would make a very interesting MBA case study.

Nogram

OK. But explain to me why my admittedly-extreme no-hype policy changes your behavior as a loyal customer.

If Gary, for example, puts out a fantastic competing product, he deserves to gain customers. Why should people refuse to buy it just because I say I'm working on something new?

And if I put out a terrific new game, it's still going to be the same game released at the same time it would have been had I hyped it.

I understand why you're frustrated today. And frankly, I'm flattered by it.

But none of you have made a case for why it's a bad policy. A good product will sell well. A bad product won't.

Since I'm not going retail and I don't have to impress a board of directors, I don't need to make 90% of my sales in the first month or two the way a larger game development company does.

I think people feel better about the release when it finally does happen this way, then word of mouth builds. I think my sales numbers reflect this.

And if anyone still knows my name 20 years from now, I will be very happy indeed. Unless it's because I finally snapped and went on a 48-state killing spree.

[SackAttack]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

And if anyone still knows my name 20 years from now, I will be very happy indeed. Unless it's because I finally snapped and went on a 48-state killing spree.

So which two states are you sparing?

[Big Fo]

I'd guess Alaska and Hawaii for convenience sake.

[Nogram]

I drive a Infiniti G35, I like my car, lots. Mercedes and BMW also make nice cars, am I going to buy one this year, not likely at all. 5 years from now when I want a new car I will look at all the options, but my experience with my G35 could have a major impact on how I deal with my next purchase. How was my dealer experience, service experience, etc.

So why is it I don't want a new car? Because I have invested heavily in the car I have, primarily in $.

A football simulation is different, but in many ways similar. If Gary comes out with a great product in August next year and you have not released one, chances are I will buy it. (Even if it is not great, I will likely buy it, mostly because I am really really itching for a new football simulation.) If the product is good to great why would I buy yours? In the car example I have invested money. In the Football simulation world, I would invest something just as valuable, time. If I am mid career why would I switch products? And a much more dangerous situation for you would be, multiplayer leagues, if I and 30 friends (or people I meet through a forum) decide to start a new league on Gary's game, and I only have time for 1 or 2 leagues, why would I buy yours knowing I won't be using the product.

Why is it a bad policy? Using the above example, if I knew you were working on a FOF 2009, or 2010, I may wait to join that multiplayer league, to see your game first. To be honest you have a lot of loyalty in me and most on this board and I would like to see your product before committing to another game.

Can I personally afford both, yes, if you recall I was the guy willing to spend hundreds of dollars on your product if you simply added 2D representation (I understand this would require you to make major changes to the engine). So I would likely buy both anyways.

Don't be flattered by my frustration, I am not frustrated. I was insulted that in the face of your fanbase calling on you to provide ANY insight into the future, you chose to make a joke. It is like you sometimes ignore the 300 pound gorilla in the corner. I come hear and search under your user name to find insights into the game, understanding the mechanics, updates on your company, and I find American Idol commentary. As interesting as that is (and for some reason I do read it, even though I don't watch the show) it leaves me thirsty for substance on what I came here for, Front Office Football. --- I am in no way asking you not to post your thoughts on AI, but I am asking for more on FOF.

As to why it is a bad business practice to keep so quiet, it is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that it has worked for you as there has been no competition, so fans like myself are left here looking for the next release. HOWEVER, with competition the game changes drastically, again in my opinion. How does the game change, well there are many people that won't want to buy 2-3 games on the same topic, and why should they, football simulations take a lot of time and I can't imagine playing more than one at any given time. Also the best product doesn't always sell best, often it is first to the market (i-tunes), other times it is better marketing (VHS / Blu ray), other times it is packaging, etc etc. Again the more competition there is the more a company has to compete in all these areas.

You have lamented in the past that the market for Text Based Computer sims is not great, if that is the case and you know there is competition coming, why not examine what your doing as a business to make sure your a survivor? Would providing some updates hurt you that much?

Nogram

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

he may not change Jim's mind, but he has every right to voice his opinion on it. if people don't want to read it they should just skip over it, but he's got a right to express his opinion.

shit, i think on some level it might be refreshing and positive for Jim to see that there are still people posting + caring + passionate about his game. that part of it has at least got to feel good.

Did I say he didn't have a right to express his opinion?

Do I not have a right to express my opinion that his reaction to Jim's joke was way too sensitive? Do I not have a right to point out to him that Jim's policy has been that way for a long time, is based on past experience and has been criticized by some on this board for a long time yet not changed?

It really amazes me sometimes how people on forums can get so upset when they post an opinion or make some assertion and someone else points out why they disagree or why they think the assertion is wrong.

[MalcPow]

Jim has had competition for most of the FOF franchise's existence. A lot of us remember Total Pro Football, and Football Mogul's latest release is only days away(!). Bowl Bound is and obviously was a competitor to TCY. Madden is an oblique competitor to FOF. Goalline Blitz is a competitor with a different approach. Ditto a handful of other web-based, multi-player focused games that have sprouted up over the last few years. There's competition and there always has been, and FOF has pretty consistently answered the bell as a superior product.

If the Wolverine guys get a game out, a lot of folks will wait and see what happens. It's tough as a first generation product, and I have to say their approach to announcing things last year, building some sweet flash animations, talking up their plans, and then fading into Bolivian for awhile kind of validates Jim's approach. Their recent comments about a new coder make things sound pretty far from release, and it's going to be an uphill battle to produce a game that's better than a product with a decade of development under its belt. More power to them though.

As others have mentioned, you have a right to your opinion that you're being treated poorly in all this. For me, I've gotten incredible value out of the $35 I spent on Jim's game three years ago, probably to the point that it's a little shameful. The fact he's doing another free maintenance and roster update this year is almost ludicrous to me and far more bizarre than his communication policies. But, spoiled as I am by his track record, I also pretty much expected it. That's just how the man rolls. I feel downright doted upon, but others see it differently.

There are some frustrations with what Jim says or doesn't say about the game engine in your post as well. I really don't think there's much more that's going to be said on those fronts, and I trust that it's with good reason. We know a lot of things, there's still more unknown, but you're not gonna get the formulas for defensive pass coverage or the keys to life's other greatest mysteries. Them's the breaks. The game's still fun, and there's more than enough info in the strategy forum to get pretty dang good at it. Maybe it's worth asking any questions you have and seeing what happens. Those crotchety assholes in there are still occasionally helpful.

[sidthelid]

Jim you ask “Why should people refuse to buy a different product just because I say I'm working on something new?”. The simple answer is if you have a long time SP game going or you have spent a lot of time building your MP team then you’re not going to come away from the game if you know there will be future development. If no future development is on horizon of course people with look for something else, that now seems very clearly to be the case.

Support I think is an issue, the official website is never updated which makes people ask are Solesismic still around, that’s really not very good. People buy this game because of the complexity of it but we are not allowed to know any of the finer points of the game which frustrates everyone and leads to mistrust. I think people who play this type of game are reasonably intelligent and there for what to be intellectually challenged so they can solve the puzzle. To solve a puzzle you need some basics to build on and we have been given very few, so once again people get frustrated and mistrust the game. We are constantly told how intricate the game is but we don’t see it, all we have is the bad dice explanation to hide the supposed unknown’s of the game, is the game as intricate as we are told well I think people are slowly beginning to not believe this, in fact I hear this all the time across MP leagues. This needs to be addressed and only you Jim can do that by giving us more information. What I don’t understand is why write such a complex game if no one can see the complexity, that seems pointless unless it’s for your own benefit. You say you have 1000 lines for the 2 minute offence for instance but for all we know it could be 20.>

Marketing is non existent, in fact it’s terrible. Via this forum you have the ability to reach just about everyone of your customers, yet the majority of the time you choose not to. I do not believe you can not spare an hour a week let alone a month to answer some questions or do a little feature which would keep interest levels up which would in turn help sales. This again makes your customers feel you maybe don’t care and leads to mistrust. I am not saying you don’t care but that how it comes across to quite a few. To be quite frank I think that the lack of contact with us, your paying customers stinks.

The future of Solesismic, well yes newbies are coming on board but I also see many experienced GM’s leave, surely you want to have both, the only way to have both is to keep the veterans interested, some simple posts, a few explanations etc would massively help this.

You also asked why it is bad policy, a good game will sell a bad one won’t. True a good game will sell but it won’t sell as much if the marketing, customer support and insight into the game is poor. A bad game won’t sell great numbers but it will sell more with good marketing etc. If you look at any companies web site they will say they listen and work with there customers etc, are you listening and reacting to those comments?

So in summary, a great game and I genuinely thank you for that but it could be so much more by helping us, your customers help you. I don’t expect anything to change from my post or anyone else’s but I wanted to express my opinion.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Did I say he didn't have a right to express his opinion?

Do I not have a right to express my opinion that his reaction to Jim's joke was way too sensitive? Do I not have a right to point out to him that Jim's policy has been that way for a long time, is based on past experience and has been criticized by some on this board for a long time yet not changed?

It really amazes me sometimes how people on forums can get so upset when they post an opinion or make some assertion and someone else points out why they disagree or why they think the assertion is wrong.

of course you have that right. absolutely.

i'm also not sure my original post (even if it quoted yours or came right after it) was directed specifically at you - it was more of a general statement.

[flere-imsaho]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'd have to disagree pretty strongly on that point. I picked up the disdain vibe pretty easily and I don't think he owes me jack, so the entitlement issue becomes moot pretty easily as far as I can see.

There's some people he rubs the wrong way, others seem to think he can do little to no wrong, such is life. But those general impressions certainly have to color how people would interpret his attitude toward fans and/or customers.

Although I'm not positive if its a "disdain" vibe, or just the way Jim comes across, but honestly it doesn't matter.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by MalcPow

If the Wolverine guys get a game out, a lot of folks will wait and see what happens. It's tough as a first generation product, and I have to say their approach to announcing things last year, building some sweet flash animations, talking up their plans, and then fading into Bolivian for awhile kind of validates Jim's approach. Their recent comments about a new coder make things sound pretty far from release, and it's going to be an uphill battle to produce a game that's better than a product with a decade of development under its belt. More power to them though.

I've clarified this a number of times on our forum but will do so as well here. Our approach to things changed because my situation changed. When we announced DDS: Pro Football I was working almost full time on game development and Wolverine Studios. I then realized I could either keep doing that and not pay my bills or go back to the real world. Believe it or not the basketball text sim market isn't quite as lucrative as the baseball or football ones Because my time in any given week for coding is totally random I don't feel confident in saying you can expect the game by x date - case in point with the new basketball game...things are going well, we have stable beta builds with most of the features turned on and we're finally getting to the point where I will release screens and talk up the game and get it into the full scale beta portion. But as long as I am doing this on a part-time basis we're going to keep things closer to the vest than before just because it takes a lot longer now. At the same time I can't go back and unring that bell of announcing the game and we're just doing the best we can to get it done.

With football it hasn't been for lack of trying - the reason I stopped fb development and switched to bkb was because it would be faster to get basketball done and our customers (who are basketball customers) could have something new that they have patiently waited a long time for rather than taking even longer to develop football. Basically I felt the company needed something new to keep it "alive" to the already existing customer base before trying to expand it.

The truth is that football is actually pretty well built - its just in pieces all over the place. We've tried two (and now hopefully the third time is the charm) different coders to take the engine, which is fully developed on paper, and turn it into code. The basic UI, the functionality of a career sim, logic for football activities...those all exist in code (with modifications that have already been determined yet to be made still). In doing the new basketball game I've also switched over to the .NET platform - this caused a learning curve for me as I'm not a programmer by trade so DDS: Pro Basketball 2 essentially had to be redone from scratch based on the old code - in doing so, much of the basic code or at least structure can be and will be used for DDS: Pro Football. The game engine and 2D engine (which are no small parts for sure) are really the only things that needed to be totally built from the ground up for football and as I have said, we've tried to get outside help there and are trying yet again in order to speed up the development.

When we are done (and that's when - not if) we will have a good product. Will it be on par with FOF? Certainly not in some aspects - Jim's put a decade into a fantastic game. In some other aspects I think it will be better or at the very least offer a different experience based on the work I've done with the basketball and golf games over the past few years. Our goal is not to take down the FOF empire - that would be a foolish attempt. We just want to put out a game that offers something a little different and hope that it appeals to a wide audience. I hope that when it happens that this community will give it a shot just as I hope they give all of our games and all other text sims a chance - this is a niche genre and I'm very appreciative of all the people who support it because it really takes the support of a large portion of the community to be successful.

[Nogram]

Greg, I think that is the exact type of feedback we are looking for. Personally I think your CRAZY not to allocate as many resources as possible into your Pro Football product, given the market opportunity, but that is your business decision to make.

I am looking forward to buying your product the day it is released (provided it is before the FOF or Wolverine products).

Nogram

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Nogram

Greg, I think that is the exact type of feedback we are looking for. Personally I think your CRAZY not to allocate as many resources as possible into your Pro Football product, given the market opportunity, but that is your business decision to make.

I am looking forward to buying your product the day it is released (provided it is before the FOF or Wolverine products).

Nogram

{scratches head}

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Nogram

Greg, I think that is the exact type of feedback we are looking for. Personally I think your CRAZY not to allocate as many resources as possible into your Pro Football product, given the market opportunity, but that is your business decision to make.

I am looking forward to buying your product the day it is released (provided it is before the FOF or Wolverine products).

Nogram

Okay, I'm used to people who don't know I have a brother named "Gary" calling me "Gary", but I wonder how used Mr. Gorsky is to being called "Greg" (and no, he's not my brother Gary).

[Ben E Lou]

And Wolverine releasing their product before Wolverine would be a pretty neat trick, too.

[ShaneTheMaster]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

OK. But explain to me why my admittedly-extreme no-hype policy changes your behavior as a loyal customer.

How about keeping your existing customers interested in the game?? Having many people participate in multiplayer leagues is a benefit to you, right? (Albeit indirectly). At one time, I was in as many as 4 online leagues - now I am in ZERO - mainly because I became tired of the game, and I did not know if the game was ever going to be updated. It was not because the game is bad - it just been 3 years since a major revision.

Letting us know what is on the horizon will keep people interested and have more patience when the current version gets old.


If you're stranded on a boat for a week without food, you will fight harder to live if you can see land close by.

Had I known an update or new version was coming out, I guarantee I'd still be in at least 1 or 2 leagues.

I know I am not the only one that has quit leagues because of this.

[DaddyTorgo]

be nice to the newb boys

[DaddyTorgo]

thanks for the update Gary. Good to hear.

[MrIllini]

Originally Posted by Nogram

Greg, I think that is the exact type of feedback we are looking for. Personally I think your CRAZY not to allocate as many resources as possible into your Pro Football product, given the market opportunity, but that is your business decision to make.

I am looking forward to buying your product the day it is released (provided it is before the FOF or Wolverine products).

Nogram

Will you sell me your Infiniti G35?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Nogram

Greg, I think that is the exact type of feedback we are looking for. Personally I think your CRAZY not to allocate as many resources as possible into your Pro Football product, given the market opportunity, but that is your business decision to make.

I am looking forward to buying your product the day it is released (provided it is before the FOF or Wolverine products).

Nogram

Ummm, don't you mean Gary? And he is Wolverine products...

[RomaGoth]

I really don't see anything wrong with how Jim does things. It is, after all, his business and he can operate it any way he sees fit. Should he promote it a little harder? Absolutely, at least imo. An occasional progress update would be nice too, but I don't expect these things. I don't feel entitled to anything as a paying customer of his any more than I would from any other company. In fact, one could argue his treatment of us is far superior than that of some other software companies (EA, you suck).

All I would ask of any text sim maker is for the games to not be infected with DRM. The game will speak for itself, whether good or bad.

[Nogram]

Facepalm.....Gary AND Facepalm....Grey Dog.

Nogram

[Nogram]

Originally Posted by MrIllini

Will you sell me your Infiniti G35?

No....but I highly recommend them, I have a kid so I have the Sedan, if you don't, the Coupe is damn nice.

Find one a few years old, they are built great, so save the money.

Nogram

[MrIllini]

Originally Posted by Nogram

No....but I highly recommend them, I have a kid so I have the Sedan, if you don't, the Coupe is damn nice.

Find one a few years old, they are built great, so save the money.

Nogram

I don't really like the Infiniti's, but yours sounds AWESOME

[digamma]

Are we really comparing buying a thirty dollar video game with a thirty THOUSAND dollar car? Your kidding!

[Cringer]

Originally Posted by Nogram

No....but I highly recommend them, I have a kid so I have the Sedan, if you don't, the Coupe is damn nice.

Find one a few years old, they are built great, so save the money.

Nogram

FOF 2007

[rkmsuf]

I have no idea what's going on here but the fact that jim gindin is still being interviewed is a tribute to his genius.

[Gallifrey]

Originally Posted by Solecismic

OK. But explain to me why my admittedly-extreme no-hype policy changes your behavior as a loyal customer.

If Gary, for example, puts out a fantastic competing product, he deserves to gain customers. Why should people refuse to buy it just because I say I'm working on something new?

And if I put out a terrific new game, it's still going to be the same game released at the same time it would have been had I hyped it.

I understand why you're frustrated today. And frankly, I'm flattered by it.

But none of you have made a case for why it's a bad policy. A good product will sell well. A bad product won't.

Since I'm not going retail and I don't have to impress a board of directors, I don't need to make 90% of my sales in the first month or two the way a larger game development company does.

I think people feel better about the release when it finally does happen this way, then word of mouth builds. I think my sales numbers reflect this.

And if anyone still knows my name 20 years from now, I will be very happy indeed. Unless it's because I finally snapped and went on a 48-state killing spree.

I don't mind the no hype policy. I do the same with my records. Why say it will be out in 3 months? It generates more hype with those wondering and asking than if I just said when to expect it.

The bottom line is what is released, not how much we know before hand. I am waiting for Jim's next edition and will be right there when it is released just because he always made a product I really like, which no other developer big or small has done before. He is like the producer that can actually hear.

[Khorium]

You guys are missing the point of this thread.

(And of the one that got locked by our despotic overlord).

Jim responded. We didn't get what we wanted, but we got a response.

The whiners got some satisfaction. The terrorists have won.

I would like to add a few things:

1. I don't think hype or delays hurt TCY. It was, and arguably remains, the gold standard for college football sims. Please don't let that one experience dictate a policy of zero communication. We're going to whine either way; you might as well earn some pre-sale hype for it.

2. To those of you gushing over free patches and roster updates: News Flash: Most other games provide this. Just because EA has adopted a model of charging 50 bucks for a minor update and roster changes every year doesn't mean everyone does. EA is a lousy example of a game company for any discussion.

3. It's OK for Jim to be funny, just not in the midst of a heated argument. Have you ever tried making a joke when you're arguing with your wife/girlfriend? It's not your best move.

4. If FOF isn't going to have some massive, fundamental change (web-based play, custom league configurations, single player point-of-view mode, or some other radical new feature), then I don't know if it's worth updating. I would personally rather see a new TCY.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Khorium

You guys are missing the point of this thread.

(And of the one that got locked by our despotic overlord).

Jim responded. We didn't get what we wanted, but we got a response.

The whiners got some satisfaction. The terrorists have won.

Terrorists never win. And winning is half the battle.

Originally Posted by Khorium

I would like to add a few things:

1. I don't think hype or delays hurt TCY. It was, and arguably remains, the gold standard for college football sims. Please don't let that one experience dictate a policy of zero communication. We're going to whine either way; you might as well earn some pre-sale hype for it.

I see BBCF as slightly better from a gameplay perspective, but TCY is easier to use and has better recruiting mechanics, at least imho.

Originally Posted by Khorium

2. To those of you gushing over free patches and roster updates: News Flash: Most other games provide this. Just because EA has adopted a model of charging 50 bucks for a minor update and roster changes every year doesn't mean everyone does. EA is a lousy example of a game company for any discussion.

True, that. However, it is STILL nice to have a game supported with FREE roster updates, regardless of whether another douchebag company charges for them or not.

Originally Posted by Khorium

3. It's OK for Jim to be funny, just not in the midst of a heated argument. Have you ever tried making a joke when you're arguing with your wife/girlfriend? It's not your best move.

My wife laughs at my jokes when we fight, then we fight over the joke itself. *sigh*

Originally Posted by Khorium

4. If FOF isn't going to have some massive, fundamental change (web-based play, custom league configurations, single player point-of-view mode, or some other radical new feature), then I don't know if it's worth updating. I would personally rather see a new TCY.

I don't see a reason for a massive, fundamental change to FOF, but if it happens I won't argue with it unless said changes suck.

I am always up for a new TCY.