Teens Acquitted of Murdering Illegal

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

They DO pay income taxes, although I'm not sure what the breakdown is between those that do and those that don't.

Property taxes, well obviously, because you kind of need to own property.

How exactly do illegal immigrants paid under the table pay income taxes?

And the ones that do (i.e. the ones that submit illegal paperwork) can't be paid under the minimum, thus removing the primary advantage to hiring them froma business perspective.

Those illegals I have less of a problem with, although I would prefer they be part of a guest worker program and have an official status.

[BYU 14]

Originally Posted by lungs

They DO pay income taxes, although I'm not sure what the breakdown is between those that do and those that don't.

Property taxes, well obviously, because you kind of need to own property.

You would be surprised how many don't, especially in the contruction and farm labor sectors.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There is nothing a prosecutor can do if jurors are racist. He can present all the evidence in the world and the jury will find the guy not guilty simply based on skin color.

Or...the prosecutor just did his job poorly.

Unlike you, I actually am from Northeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania and have witnessed first-hand inadequacies of the judicial system in various Keystone counties.

For example: Judges take bribes to send youth to private prisons - The Gathering For Justice

But, nah, it's the jurors fault for the prosecution's inability to prove a reasonable doubt. Let's leave lawyers who do a crappy job off the hook.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

How exactly do illegal immigrants paid under the table pay income taxes?

And the ones that do (i.e. the ones that submit illegal paperwork) can't be paid under the minimum, thus removing the primary advantage to hiring them froma business perspective.

Those illegals I have less of a problem with, although I would prefer they be part of a guest worker program and have an official status.

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants that are paid under the table.

I'm talking about the ones with fake paperwork but file taxes, which is the norm around here, not the exception. Paying under the minimum is NOT why people hire illegal immigrants around here.

Here is a link that talks about an estimate of how much they pay in.

If paying under the minimum wage is the sole purpose of hiring illegal immigrants, then it wouldn't make sense for me to be paying them $13-$16/hour but I do. That's in line with what factories pay around here. We are probably higher than most farms, but I honestly don't know of any farms that do pay under the table. The only attempts at defrauding the system I've encountered were some of my employees claiming to have many more children than they actually had. A 22 year old claimed to have 8 kids, and when we told him that would raise the suspicion of INS (even though it probably wouldn't have) he quickly recanted and said he had 2.

Again, I'm sure paying under the table is probably prevalent down where you come from. I've got nothing against punishing these employers. But the notion that the only reason people hire illegal immigrants is to pay under the minimum wage is highly misguided and not at all true.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by BYU 14

You would be surprised how many don't, especially in the contruction and farm labor sectors.

Actually, I am a farmer, so I know a little about that sector.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

If you're being paid under the table, you're not paying income tax.

Being paid under the table is not a illegal only problem. I'd imagine most servers don't report all their tips and that there are thousands of jobs that are paid cash and not reported as income. This would appear to be an issue with businesses trying to avoid having to pay payroll taxes.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Sales tax on purchases isn't enough to justify wholesale usage of the system, while contributing comparatively little.

Well 40% of our country doesn't pay federal income tax. In California, those making small hourly wages are certainly not coming close to contributing and justifying their usage of the system. I think it's fine to say that people shouldn't get services if they aren't paying into the pot, but that should be a universal view toward all people who are not paying in, including those who are unemployed (about 10% of California's population).

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

That cheap labor can be (and is) done by legal immigrants. It can also now be done by some of the millions of desperate job seekers in California currently, where our unemployment rate is significantly higher than the rest of the country's. And if businesses need to pay under the table, cheap and illegal labor to survive, they should not be surviving, and be replaced by more efficient businesses in the capitalistic model.

I think that's a simplistic view of how illegals participate in our economy. Cheap labor has a trickle down effect on everyone. You enjoy not having to pay a lot of money for fruit at the grocery store. That cost is low because they aren't paying high wages for people to pick it. You enjoy paying a reasonable price at a restaurant for your meal which wouldn't be possible without cheap labor washing dishes. Most major companies in this country rely on cheap labor from somewhere. I'd rather it be in the U.S. with a mix of illegals and legal residents than some factory in China where no one hear sees a dime.

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

I think with the jobs one, you don't know just how prevalent legal immigration is here. There are plenty of good people I know, Mexicans/South Americans for the most part, who got here legally and are working hard for their families here, and they are definitely hurt by illegal immigration. It's a huge issue for them (as is the likelihood that the recession is actually causing established social classes--i.e. whites and blacks, suburban middle classers--to take jobs they are overqualified for to pay the bills, which shrinks the job market for legal immigrants).

If a poor, uneducated guy who crossed the border with nothing but the shirt on his back is able to beat you out for a job, then it's time to look in the mirror and change something. There is a reason we don't see brain surgeons whining about losing jobs to illegals. Those who are losing jobs should probably get more education or acquire a valuable skill. Just being a resident here doesn't mean you should have a job if you are unqualified and unskilled.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Or...the prosecutor just did his job poorly.

Unlike you, I actually am from Northeastern/Eastern Pennsylvania and have witnessed first-hand inadequacies of the judicial system in various Keystone counties.

For example: Judges take bribes to send youth to private prisons - The Gathering For Justice

But, nah, it's the jurors fault for the prosecution's inability to prove a reasonable doubt. Let's leave lawyers who do a crappy job off the hook.

Did you not read one of the articles? The foreman himself said that some on the jury were racist and had made up their minds already.

Shitty prosecutor or not, this case wasn't rocket science. You don't need four healthy guys doing that much damage in "self-defense". If they can't figure out that this was murder, then they are fucking idiots.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Not the two big ones (income and property).

They do pay property taxes in a way. Those are factored into the cost of rent and passed on to the renters.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Did you not read one of the articles? The foreman himself said that some on the jury were racist and had made up their minds already.

Shitty prosecutor or not, this case wasn't rocket science. You don't need four healthy guys doing that much damage in "self-defense". If they can't figure out that this was murder, then they are fucking idiots.

What if the foreman himself is racist? Since when did the foreman become lord of the courtroom and all knowing about the prejudices of his fellow jurors?

Also, I'm glad you are now an expert on this case. When did you discover this outrage and become so fully convinced that you know everything that occured. After all, you must've been sitting in the courtroom for the trial, right?

I'm glad we can all learn from courageous stance you've taken against this outcome. I'm sure those 14 hours were a lot of pain and deliberation in your own mind.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

What if the foreman himself is racist? Since when did the foreman become lord of the courtroom and all knowing about the prejudices of his fellow jurors?

Also, I'm glad you are now an expert on this case. When did you discover this outrage and become so fully convinced that you know everything that occured. After all, you must've been sitting in the courtroom for the trial, right?

I'm glad we can all learn from courageous stance you've taken against this outcome. I'm sure those 14 hours were a lot of pain and deliberation in your own mind.

Doesn't take an expert to know that 4 guys beating someone to death isn't "simple assault".

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Doesn't take an expert to know that 4 guys beating someone to death isn't "simple assault".

Good, I'm glad you agree with me that we need more information before declaring those guilty of crimes. More is needed.

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Doesn't take an expert to know that 4 guys beating someone to death isn't "simple assault".

They did not beat hiim to death IIRC. He died from complications arising from the beating. There's a huge difference there in intent.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

They did not beat hiim to death IIRC. He died from complications arising from the beating. There's a huge difference there in intent.

So if I shoot a guy and he dies a day or so later at the hospital, it's not murder?

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

So if I shoot a guy and he dies a day or so later at the hospital, it's not murder?

My Crim's a little bit rusty, but if the guy would have lived but for doctor's error, then that might be a superceding cause for the death (although both could be charged).

[RendeR]

THat depends really. Did the injury itself kill him? then yes. Did he die of a heart attack two days later? then probably not. Depends entirely on wether the CAUSE of death was the wounds YOU inflicted and if in fact ins hooting him it can be proved that you were TRYING to kill him.

Murder isn't black and white, its not I hit you you die I get convicted of murder. Life is full of shadows and shades.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

I know this is a particularly racist part of Pennsylvania, but still shocking to see.

I object severely to that statement

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Karlifornia

The white man already came here "illegally". And for what? For pieces of paper. Didn't wanna pay taxes over in England? Guess what? We're paying taxes over here. Nice work, moron pilgrims.

My ancestors came here for religious freedom, not because of taxes.

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

There is nothing a prosecutor can do if jurors are racist. He can present all the evidence in the world and the jury will find the guy not guilty simply based on skin color.

Have you seen Twelve Angry Men

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RendeR

THat depends really. Did the injury itself kill him? then yes. Did he die of a heart attack two days later? then probably not. Depends entirely on wether the CAUSE of death was the wounds YOU inflicted and if in fact ins hooting him it can be proved that you were TRYING to kill him.

Murder isn't black and white, its not I hit you you die I get convicted of murder. Life is full of shadows and shades.

He died of head injuries sustained from the attack.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He died of head injuries sustained from the attack.

I do not think this word means what you think it means.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

I'm not talking about illegal immigrants that are paid under the table.

I'm talking about the ones with fake paperwork but file taxes, which is the norm around here, not the exception. Paying under the minimum is NOT why people hire illegal immigrants around here.

Here is a link that talks about an estimate of how much they pay in.

If paying under the minimum wage is the sole purpose of hiring illegal immigrants, then it wouldn't make sense for me to be paying them $13-$16/hour but I do. That's in line with what factories pay around here. We are probably higher than most farms, but I honestly don't know of any farms that do pay under the table. The only attempts at defrauding the system I've encountered were some of my employees claiming to have many more children than they actually had. A 22 year old claimed to have 8 kids, and when we told him that would raise the suspicion of INS (even though it probably wouldn't have) he quickly recanted and said he had 2.

Again, I'm sure paying under the table is probably prevalent down where you come from. I've got nothing against punishing these employers. But the notion that the only reason people hire illegal immigrants is to pay under the minimum wage is highly misguided and not at all true.

Why are people hiring illegal immigrants than if not to circumvent labor laws? What is the inherent benefit gained from hiring illegal immigrants that you don't get from hiring legal immigrants and workers? If the reason is not money, why is it being done?

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by lungs

Actually, I am a farmer, so I know a little about that sector.

But you're in Wisconsin. I'm sure farming is different down here in SoCal than it is up there.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

I do not think this word means what you think it means.

Not my choice of words. The choice of the police, doctors, and prosecutors.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Not my choice of words. The choice of the police, doctors, and prosecutors.

Yes, when they are talking about "supporting" or "prolonging" something, not in the context you are using.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Yes, when they are talking about "supporting" or "prolonging" something, not in the context you are using.

Is your argument about the case really coming down to semantics and how a random word is used?

I mean if you have some sort of evidence that shows that the injuries Luis Ramirez received during the fight were not the result of his death, then great. But if your argument in the case is that the men should be innocent because I used the word sustained, then I don't know what else to say.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Why are people hiring illegal immigrants than if not to circumvent labor laws? What is the inherent benefit gained from hiring illegal immigrants that you don't get from hiring legal immigrants and workers? If the reason is not money, why is it being done?

It is money, but it's not to civumvent labor laws. It's because it can be pretty tough to find people willing to do crappy jobs without hiring illegals. There just isn't a line waiting outside the door with people who want to wash dishes, mow lawns, or pick fruit for low wages.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

He died of head injuries sustained from the attack.

Ok, so I could certianly understand manslaughter charges.

Can you PROVE they wanted to KILL him?

Therein lies the real difference.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Being paid under the table is not a illegal only problem. I'd imagine most servers don't report all their tips and that there are thousands of jobs that are paid cash and not reported as income. This would appear to be an issue with businesses trying to avoid having to pay payroll taxes.

There are certainly plenty of jobs that are paid under the table, and they are all illegal, yes, no matter who's being paid. To act like this excuses the fact that an immense amount of these jobs are being done by illegals, though, is irresponsible of you. Just because it's not 100% illegals responsible for this doesn't mean it's not an illegal immigration problem.

By the by, I am a server, part time, here in CA, and we're required to report at least 8% of our sales as tip income, in addition to our wages (which in CA is the minimum, not what is done in some other states, where there is a special, much lower minimum for tipped employees). 8% is not the standard 15% given for restaurant service, no, but that additional 7% is also eaten away at in the form of tip outs, to bussers, bartenders, hostesses and the like, so that servers will maybe get away with 3% or so of their tipping wages as unclaimed tipping income. This is as wrong as anyone else, but these servers do still pay in significantly in income taxes, because whereas 3% of their tipping income may go unclaimed, 8% certainly is, and this is enforced by restaurants, because if the restaurant numebrs don't add up, the feds and state come after the restaurants first. Oh, and I claim 100% of my tips (not that you care, but figured I would say it).

Well 40% of our country doesn't pay federal income tax. In California, those making small hourly wages are certainly not coming close to contributing and justifying their usage of the system. I think it's fine to say that people shouldn't get services if they aren't paying into the pot, but that should be a universal view toward all people who are not paying in, including those who are unemployed (about 10% of California's population).

What 40%? You mean the sick, the elderly, children? Every society bares those costs. It's called humanity. All workers drawing a paycheck on the up and up is required to pay income tax. Not everyone is going to get out of the system what they put in. Some will take more, some will take less. Point is, though, everyone's paying in--except under the table paid illegals, that is. Except for transients and those who for whatever reason have given up ever being employed, most of that 10% are fervently trying to find employment. As with the sick, elderly and children, this is a cost any society willingly bares. Once again, none of this leads one to the conclusion that illegal immigration is not a problem.

I think that's a simplistic view of how illegals participate in our economy. Cheap labor has a trickle down effect on everyone. You enjoy not having to pay a lot of money for fruit at the grocery store. That cost is low because they aren't paying high wages for people to pick it. You enjoy paying a reasonable price at a restaurant for your meal which wouldn't be possible without cheap labor washing dishes. Most major companies in this country rely on cheap labor from somewhere. I'd rather it be in the U.S. with a mix of illegals and legal residents than some factory in China where no one hear sees a dime.

Guess what? That cheap labor doesn't keep much of its money here in the US. It sends it back home. So you're not seeing much of those dimes either way. Simplistic or not, it's the truth. The economy will adjust, and life will go on. None of this justifies illegal immigration. It's not the answer to stick with a current problem to avoid a potential problem down the road.

If a poor, uneducated guy who crossed the border with nothing but the shirt on his back is able to beat you out for a job, then it's time to look in the mirror and change something. There is a reason we don't see brain surgeons whining about losing jobs to illegals. Those who are losing jobs should probably get more education or acquire a valuable skill. Just being a resident here doesn't mean you should have a job if you are unqualified and unskilled.

The people being beat out for those jobs are most often not Americans, but illegal immigrants. Read the part you quoted of me to which this is a response to. These are legal immigrants who did things the right way and came to this country for a chance at a better life, and they are losing their jobs to their own former countrymen, who are here because they broke the law to get here and are getting paid less than what legal immigrants are able to take as honest, tax paying employees.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It is money, but it's not to civumvent labor laws. It's because it can be pretty tough to find people willing to do crappy jobs without hiring illegals. There just isn't a line waiting outside the door with people who want to wash dishes, mow lawns, or pick fruit for low wages.

In Socal There indeed IS a line. On damned near every street corner. Illegal and elgal alike. The difference is the illegals are willing 99.999 times out of 100 work for a lot less than legals.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

It is money, but it's not to civumvent labor laws. It's because it can be pretty tough to find people willing to do crappy jobs without hiring illegals. There just isn't a line waiting outside the door with people who want to wash dishes, mow lawns, or pick fruit for low wages.

FYI, circumvent labor laws == money. It's always about money (for businesses).

If people can't be found for a job, than those businesses need to improve their wages, or get out of the game altogether. It's called capitalism.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.
I wish my life were so devoid of things legitimately worth concern that I had that kind of free time. C'est la vie.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RendeR

In Socal There indeed IS a line. On damned near every street corner. Illegal and elgal alike. The difference is the illegals are willing 99.999 times out of 100 work for a lot less than legals.

Nail on the head.

Rain, come on out to LA. I'll take you on a tour of the Home Depots in the area, and you tell me if there is a labor shortage.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

FYI, circumvent labor laws == money. It's always about money (for businesses).

If people can't be found for a job, than those businesses need to improve their wages, or get out of the game altogether. It's called capitalism.

On the flip side, if you want to make more money, make yourself valuable. Get an education and acquire skills in demand. Like I said, there aren't brain surgeons sitting around bitching about the illegals taking all their jobs.

Labor laws do not equal capitalism. In a true capitalist system, companies would hire who they want for what they want. There wouldn't be minimum wage requirements, payroll taxes, and workman's comp. You can't say it's capitalism for business owners but socialism for workers.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.
I wish my life were so devoid of things legitimately worth concern that I had that kind of free time. C'est la vie.

Want to clarify this for us Jon? While I understand your sentiment as a puritanical right wing freak bastard, I'm wondering at the "common criminal" notation. Other than being an immigrant I'm not seeing anything in the articles that points to the dead kid as a criminal?

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.
I wish my life were so devoid of things legitimately worth concern that I had that kind of free time. C'est la vie.

Common criminal? He was an undocumented person. That's like saying we shouldn't care when a guy is murdered who had an expired drivers license.

[RedKingGold]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Is your argument about the case really coming down to semantics and how a random word is used?

I mean if you have some sort of evidence that shows that the injuries Luis Ramirez received during the fight were not the result of his death, then great. But if your argument in the case is that the men should be innocent because I used the word sustained, then I don't know what else to say.

Just admit you're wrong and we'll move on.

Considering your track record, I'm not holding my breath.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Nail on the head.

Rain, come on out to LA. I'll take you on a tour of the Home Depots in the area, and you tell me if there is a labor shortage.

No thanks, your taxes are too high.

If someone is sitting in a Home Depot parking lot who is uneducated and unskilled, is it not their fault too? I guess I look at it a different way. If you're competing with these illegals for jobs, it's probably time to make yourself more valuable in the work force. You can't demand higher pay for jobs that require nothing but a working pulse.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Common criminal? He was an undocumented person. That's like saying we shouldn't care when a guy is murdered who had an expired drivers license.

I'm sorry, perhaps I've misunderstood both the thread title and the explicit reference in the linked article.

So I'll ask a simple question or two, maybe I'm working from bad info somewhere.
1) Was he in the country legally?

2) Was his presence in the country legal at any point? (i.e. did he maybe enter legally and then overstay a visa or something like that)

I'm working from the understanding that the answer to both question is no, but please straighten me out if that's not right.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by Chief Rum

Why are people hiring illegal immigrants than if not to circumvent labor laws? What is the inherent benefit gained from hiring illegal immigrants that you don't get from hiring legal immigrants and workers? If the reason is not money, why is it being done?

Speaking only from my own point of view, we are essentially competing with factories, as my farm is essentially a milk factory.

Normal factories can pick and choose when it can shut down or produce at a lower capacity. My factory is dealing with living and breathing animals that the switch can't simply be turned off. We are operating 365 days a year, 24 hours a day.

So given the choice between a similar paying factory job that is a day job with weekends off, and a farming job that entails working plenty of nights and weekends, which would be more attractive? Oh and in most factory jobs, getting covered with manure isn't part of the normal day.

Temporary workers fit my operation very well. For the most part, they are here to work and that's about it. Their families remain in their native country so they don't desire time off on weekends to spend with their families or normal working hours.

I also believe I am getting a higher quality worker. I'd essentially be scraping the bottom of the barrel by hiring American workers. The unemployable in many cases. The economy hasn't hit this area as hard as SoCal. The Nicaraguans I hire are from families that I've worked closely with for the past three or four years. They take turns coming to the United States and bring a brother or cousin here a month or two before they leave in order to train them before their departure. With Americans, it's usually two weeks notice and there you're stuck looking for somebody. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when you have an opportunity to have a seamless transition, why not take it?

The language barrier is not a problem in my case either, as I am semi-fluent in Spanish and also have two bilingual people on staff (both Mexican). I could go on and on about advantages to hiring the people that I hire and it has nothing to do with paying a lower wage.

But you're in Wisconsin. I'm sure farming is different down here in SoCal than it is up there.

In terms of dairy farming, the labor practices are fairly similar between California and Wisconsin. Now when you talk about produce farming, that is probably where the differences come in.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by RedKingGold

Just admit you're wrong and we'll move on.

Considering your track record, I'm not holding my breath.

Wrong on what? I stated that he died because a group of people beat the living shit out of him. You are the one trying to say it was some doctor's error that not even the defense attorneys brought up.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Handwringing over the death of a common criminal, it's quite amusing really.

I'm really clad Christ didn't feel same way about those two guys on the crosses next to him.

[RainMaker]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

I'm sorry, perhaps I've misunderstood both the thread title and the explicit reference in the linked article.

So I'll ask a simple question or two, maybe I'm working from bad info somewhere.
1) Was he in the country legally?

2) Was his presence in the country legal at any point? (i.e. did he maybe enter legally and then overstay a visa or something like that)

I'm working from the understanding that the answer to both question is no, but please straighten me out if that's not right.

You are correct. And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to believe murder is an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation. The police officer surely doesn't put a bullet in your head if you drive around without a license.

[RainMaker]

Lungs, what part of Wisconsin are you in if you don't mind me asking? I got my undergraduate at Winona but spent a lot of time in LaCrosse and even worked in Arcadia for a couple years.

[lungs]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Lungs, what part of Wisconsin are you in if you don't mind me asking? I got my undergraduate at Winona but spent a lot of time in LaCrosse and even worked in Arcadia for a couple years.

About a half hour northwest of Madison.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

On the flip side, if you want to make more money, make yourself valuable. Get an education and acquire skills in demand. Like I said, there aren't brain surgeons sitting around bitching about the illegals taking all their jobs.

Labor laws do not equal capitalism. In a true capitalist system, companies would hire who they want for what they want. There wouldn't be minimum wage requirements, payroll taxes, and workman's comp. You can't say it's capitalism for business owners but socialism for workers.

The people who do these jobs, getting an education and acquiring in demand skills is not an easy option, and for some, isn't available at all. Try to tell the hard working legal emigre from Mexico that to save his job washing dishes he's about to lose to an illegal immigrant, he's going to have to stop working his second job--which he can't afford to lose so he can feed his family--so he can go to school--which he can't afford--to get the education you say is there and available for him.

This is an irrelevant point to the discussion, and I am not sure why you're bringing it up, except perhaps to give yourself straw man fuel, when the real merits of your argument are lacking. Remember, the original point is that illegal immigration is a problem and represents a serious burden for some states. Current residents improving their education or their job skills, while fine and dandy, has absolutely nothing to do with the illegal immigration problem, which would still exist either way. So stop arguing something pointless and get back on the subject.

We don't have a true capitalistic society, but a general one. It's capitalism within the confines of the laws the government places on it, which includes labor laws. These laws are there to protect workers, and, yes, citizens. Legal ones who pay taxes. These laws also protect legal immigrants, BTW. Within the confines of that system, though, we do indeed have capitalism as our basic system of economics, and in that system it is survival of the fittest. If businesses can't get by without breaking the rules, they should not survive. And if you think other companies won't come in to replace them just fine, you're fooling yourself.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

Wrong on what? I stated that he died because a group of people beat the living shit out of him. You are the one trying to say it was some doctor's error that not even the defense attorneys brought up.

See you're wrong in that you're arguing that the situation fits a murder charge. You're saying they should be convicted of murder as charged, when the articles I just read through seem more like a teen brawl that got out of hand. Murder requires intent to kill (in most cases) and if the DA was smarter than the average turnip he would have gone for multiple charges of manslaughter and probably gotten his convictions. But Manslaughter doesn't make big headlines so based on what I've read it looks like the prosecutor's office fucked themselves.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

You are correct. And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to believe murder is an acceptable punishment for not having proper documentation.

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

[Abe Sargent]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

I'm really clad Christ didn't feel same way about those two guys on the crosses next to him.

Schmidty with the win.

[Chief Rum]

Originally Posted by RainMaker

No thanks, your taxes are too high.

If someone is sitting in a Home Depot parking lot who is uneducated and unskilled, is it not their fault too? I guess I look at it a different way. If you're competing with these illegals for jobs, it's probably time to make yourself more valuable in the work force. You can't demand higher pay for jobs that require nothing but a working pulse.

If someone is uneducated and unskilled, that can be because of the choices they made, but is also likely the lack of choices they were given. You do look at it in a different way. You believe that there are jobs in this country only fit for illegals to do. I believe that if a job needs doing that a business will pay for because it will generate revenue, that it is worthy of being done by anyone, and paid to the level of its value in generating said revenue. And that that by legal requirement is done within the realm of labor law (and thus by legal workers). It's not that people who are unskilled/uneducated should be able to be better than illegals at that job, it's that they shouldn't have to compete with those illegal workers in the first place. It's not their job to protect their right to earn a living--it's the government's.

And believe it or not, a "working pulse" is all that's needed to draw a minimum wage in this country. If you have a problem with where that wage level is set, your problem is not here, but with your Congressman.

[RendeR]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

And I'm saying it's completely fucking crazy to waste time worrying about a common criminal, which is what this piece of shit became when he crossed the border illegally.

Good riddance, they ought to pin medals on these guys for doing what our chickenshit politicians lack the balls to do as they should have in the first place. We ought to be paying them bounties for their public service, not putting them on trial.

edit to add: I shed nary a tear when a homeowner manages to kill a burglar, why on earth would anyone in their right mind give a rat's ass when someone does the same thing to someone who illegally entered the country instead of a home?

Wow Jon, just fucking wow. With as little as I think of you ever, you mange to somehow prove what an utter and complete waste of human flesh you really are time and time again.