Whats going on in the Sim Market?

[Dutch]

Or at least get FOF/TCY to a Summer/Winter Olympic cycle.

[SFL Cat]

I think sim developers must be waiting for their piece of the stimulus bailout.

[Mac Howard]

Originally Posted by SFL Cat

I think sim developers must be waiting for their piece of the stimulus bailout.

For Australians too, pretty please

[gstelmack]

So I've been thinking about this, and really the answer for me comes down to "stagnation". Leaving aside FM, which has a large development staff and a huge European following, let's focus on the indy developers and what's going on. What was the last "innovation" we had in the text sim market?

Why is it so tough to commish a multiplayer league? The VGA Planets game I used to run on a BBS back in the '92/'93 timeframe was smart enough to check the turn folder on launch and run automatically, and Starz! was easy to set up with e-mail filters to dump files in a common location while it ran in the background waiting for a timer to expire or all turns to be there. OOTP comes closest with built-in FTP capabilities, but the commish still has way too much manual work. And if the draft included an import/export process, folks could manage their draft entirely from within game, while the commish was processing the picks as they came through. I just don't get it.

Why are we still having to sift through reports and click all over the place to get news? Bill Abner has been advocating the "push" model for information for a LONG time. Again, OOTP comes closest, but even here it's a flood of wordy news reports that are easy to get lost in and miss things. I think FOF does an okay job in single player with its e-mails, but you don't get ANY of the useful ones in a multiplayer league. BBCF does a decent job with post-game reports on player performance. But everyone could do a much better job pushing milestones, record-breaking performances, or even just really good performances out to you, keeping in mind the multiplayer experience. Just take a look at some of the FOF multiplayer web sites to see what kind of detail people want to get immersed in their universe.

Related to this is how easy it is to forget to set a draft list, run your training camp preferences, or any other key task in a sim. BBCF's checklist comes the closest to giving you help here I think. But when this is related to the way multiplayer leagues are managed and the difficulty of knowing that not only did you export, and not only did the commish receive it, but knowing that the export was actually VALID and you didn't send an old one, too many people miss out on key tasks that can hurt them for seasons.

Why can't I do more work offline? Where are all the report dumps, etc? FBCB comes closest here, allowing me to easily print each of my players which I can then sit down with and pore over to decide what training to give, who to start where, etc. For setting depth charts FOF does a decent job of accessing player bars to help, but in most games you are clicking back and forth between multiple screens.

Get rid of modal dialogs! I have a nice widescreen monitor, let me peel off windows and put them where I want so at least I'm not closing one to open another. Instead I'm just bringing them to the front, or resizing them, or laying them next to each other, or whatever. Might help if you aren't going to improve printing and reporting for offline work. I'm very curious to see how OOTP's new customizable widget UI works. Maybe when I go to my 1680x1050 transactions screen, instead of getting 6 roster windows I'll be able to keep the four I have now, but add new columns, so I can see more key attributes before moving guys between rosters.

Support your product! Brian was releasing patches for FBCB as late as last year. Why does everyone else go so long, or make patches that break as many things as they fix, or just stop altogether and make you buy the next version? I'm tired of beating my head against frustrations in my multiplayer league that the developer doesn't seem to care about, often because they aren't actually playing multiplayer and so don't see that it is in fact a big issue. Yes, multiplayer means people will stretch your game in unimaginable ways, but it's how lots of people want to play, it helps greatly with word-of-mouth sales, and you should be supporting the game.

Take a look back at FBCB (still my favorite text sim because it's simple with good reporting and the best scouting model, even if it does have issues with multiplayer staff hiring and some fouling weirdness, but those are my only complaints, it's otherwise just SOLID) or at something like FOF2. Where have we really come over the last decade or so? FOF refined some models and added a hacked-on multiplayer and some additional reports, OOTP added a bunch of leagues nobody really cares about and lots of little additions while carrying bugs forward with each release (the promised UI improvements may be huge innovation, however), BBCF has come along with a bit better e-mail reports pushed to you, lots have had prettier interfaces that aren't any better to actually navigate among, ...

Seriously, what has REALLY changed in the text sims you are playing over the last decade? Heck, in many ways people are still chasing features that were in Front Page Sports football something like 15 years ago.

Maybe the current lull is letting developers fix some of these items and take the leaps we're all waiting for, and maybe the next version of one of these crops will get everyone talking again, or maybe one of the new sims that's been discussed will step up to the plate. Who knows? Otherwise I hope someone takes some of this to heart and wows us.

[lighthousekeeper]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

So I've been thinking about this, and really the answer for me comes down to "stagnation".

i think the perceived stagnation is just because they've basically gone as far as they can (other than the minor UI/usability tweaks you've listed above). i really can't think of a reason why i'd want to buy another version of ootp or fm - they are already 100 times more in-depth and realistic than I ever needed. i mean ootp's at the point of refinement where 'realistic arbitration model' is the big new feature - that's already so in-depth and minor to me.

[Buccaneer]

I think it can be summed up by games not doing the basic things well (esp. MP) but throws in the kitchen sink on everything else. Early 4x games gave us good information that was simple to access/read yet got to the point of decision making. The amount of work it takes to input and output information in games like FOF, OOTP and BBCF is ridiculous at best and frustrating (to the point of wanting to give up) at worst. That's probably simmers still play FBCB and older version of OOTP, I think.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Bill Abner has been advocating the "push" model for information for a LONG time.

"Push" model? Could you explain what that is?

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by sabotai

"Push" model? Could you explain what that is?

When you get into the game, it tells you what is going on and what you need to do next, rather than you having to remember to click menu options and buttons to go find things. The main screen for the game should show key results from the last sim phase / period (who won, who lost, key milestones reached, records broken, key transaction news, did someone clinch a playoff berth / get eliminated, etc, with a focus on what is of interest to you as opposed to the rest of the league) and prompt you for the next decisions you need to make (set a draft list, do your gameplan, whatever). You may have the option to go digging for more detail, but mainly the game should be "pushing" the key info to you and prompting you for what to do next.

[gstelmack]

From the Tuesday, August 19, 2008 entry on Head Coach over at Dubious Quality (http://dubiousquality.blogspot.com/2...1_archive.html):

Originally Posted by Dubious Quality

Let me explain how Head Coach works, and at what level of detail, to give you a better flavor for the game.

I've written several columns in the past about text sims and why they don't work as well as they should, and those concepts are useful here, because Head Coach is essentially a text sim with a graphics engine (Madden 08) for games. During games, you call plays, not control individual players, so Head Coach really is, at its core, a text sim.

One of my fundamental complaints about text sims is that they overload a player with detail, but make that detail difficult or obscure to access. They force the player to "pull" information instead of having it "pushed" to them. This makes many text sims entirely impenetrable--the game world might be dynamic, it might even be brilliant, but we'll never find out, because we'll never master the interface.

Head Coach crushes all those complaints.

Most importantly, Head Coach uses a push interface that is the single best interface I've ever seen in a sports game. The the central feature of the hub is a "clipboard" that presents you with all necessary tasks at the appropriate time. It works brilliantly, and it does so because it doesn't dumb down the game in the least--it merely functions as a scheduler, and you select tasks as they pop up to drill down into the detail.

The hub also allows you to navigate to every area of the game, and it's the first console game I've ever played that is not only usable, but enjoyable, with a console controller. That speaks to the excellence of the design, and lead designer Josh Loomis is to be congratulated. I've only rarely played games that combine huge amounts of detail with excellent tools to drill into that detail, but I'm happy to say that Head Coach does both extremely well.

[sabotai]

Ok. I played Head Coach and like the premise of that kind of UI, but the game did take it too far IMO. like "pushing" individual players on to you during FA. Sometimes it would force me to have to bid on my second choice before I had a chance to go after my first choice. It would be better to just say "Hey, it's FA time. These players just signed and here is a list of your remaining targeted players. Click over there to see all available FAs".

[molson]

I think I would find "pushing" rather annoying.....

I don't want any more features....I just want ever-improving AI and immersion

And some random events, like CIV IV....

[Young Drachma]

I've been thinking about this for a while.

I run a web company that mostly does strategic work, but I have web programmers and developers who work with me and we build web-based software, as well as static sites and the like. None of them are sports fans, which is why we've never pursued something like this before, but...it's always been in the back of my mind.

I've thought about enlisting some help to build a web-based text sim for a while or something with a desktop component and a web-based component. But I've never been sure if it'd be 'worth it' or not.

The market doesn't have have a real grasp of design and it shows in their sites and their products and I felt like it'd be a good thing.

So this thread has been...interesting and insightful.

[Atocep]

We seem to really pick apart OOTP for its flaws, and in some cases the game deserves it, but at the same time we do tend to ignore its strengths. Markus put his neck on the line and tried to push his game to new levels by incorporating the "SI way" of doing things in OOTP's sim universe and instead of praising him for taking a chance and getting out of the stagnation that plagues the sports text sim genre, he's been criticized much more than he ever should have been, IMO.

Even though I didn't buy last year's version I'm thankful that Markus gives me a text sim option every year. Its something that I've taken for granted and the past year has been a painful reminder of what its like to be a fan of such a niche style of gaming.

On a side note, I wonder if Jim or any of the other developers that stop by here have looked into using steam for distribution. I have no clue what Valve charges for companies to use their service, but considering studies are now suggesting that at least half of all PC game sales are done either through D2D or Steam, it appears to be a great way to increase sales.

[Young Drachma]

I hate Steam. It's just another layer for me to get to my games and it's buggy as sin and causes stack dumps in Vista.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Atocep

he's been criticized much more than he ever should have been, IMO.

Whereas this former regular consumer of text sims thinks OOTP has probably gotten the biggest free pass in the whole genre, which is one of the reasons I've got little faith in seeing games improve. Multi-generational issues with text sims games and developers that refuse to fix them, which stands as the true hallmark & legacy of OOTP, seem to just be accepted by many at this point, which in turn leaves me with very little confidence that there's enough motivation for other devs to avoid the same thing. And that leaves me with a very limited sense of loss from the absence of new product that was the point of this thread.

Meanwhile I watch tabletop games develop for free literally before my eyes in collaboration with users, and have been satisfied with the direct translations to PC that I've seen/bought/sampled. While some users are heading to consoles (and count me in that number to some extent as Fallout 3 led me to Oblivion, which has chewed up my gaming hours for a couple of months) others also head back to their roots on the tabletop or with tabletop/ computer hybrid games (which are actually my favorite of the options).

But I really don't get the lamentations about the genre as a whole, not given the point things seemed to be headed for. There's not enough worthwhile progress between versions, support is all over the board, buying supposedly finished games only to find out that you're really just paying to be the next round of beta testing, etc. Sorry but a lot of the problems the genre faces are of their own making, and with the complicity of a too forgiving consumer base that led them to believe those things were okay.

[Atocep]

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud

I hate Steam. It's just another layer for me to get to my games and it's buggy as sin and causes stack dumps in Vista.

Jim could still sell the game from his website and you could run it without steam, but regardless of your opinion of steam its a giant base of potential buyers.

Steam (and similar services) is the future of PC game sales. I'd think its at least worth looking into.

[Alan T]

I personally think most of the games fall into one of two categories:

1) Is a new text sim being written from scratch and has holes or flaws that are evident in first generations of most software products.

2) Is an established text sim many generations later who lets project creep set in and the more important pieces are overlooked.

I think for instance OOTP for example could benefit heavily by not trying to figure out 20 new things to do, and instead spend the time working on the existing 100 things to get them better refined and working correctly.

OOTP's engine is the best out there baseball sim wise easily.. but there are still too many mind-numbing frustrating things that occur that just turn plenty of people off when they do happen.

OOTP's feature set allows a more realistic baseball setting compared to pretty much any other game out there.. but when you try to use these features and they don't work as advertised or have sporadic behavior, it diminishes any value those features added in the first place.

I think the new features advertised for ootp 10 sound neat, but much more important to me is that the outstanding major bug issues that were still not fixed in the final version of ootp 9 are now resolved. That is the most frustrating part of the ootp patch process is new patches more often added new features that then broke additional existing parts of the game, rather then just fixing the pieces that were broken in the first place.

I guess it says something when ootp is one of the only text sims that I can think of which has a yearly product however to even have these criticisms of, but I guess what I am saying for any text sim developer.. I don't want the kitchen sink and don't need the kitchen sink. I just want a nice bug free game that works as advertised.

[Samdari]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Steam (and similar services) is the future of PC game sales. I'd think its at least worth looking into.

I wonder if it would even cost much more than elicense. To this point, both have very solid copy protection, and steam would put the game in front of a TON more customers. I am a big consumer of both the NFL and PC games, visit a lot of websites about both, and there is no mention of FOF anywhere. If elicense costs $5 per copy and steam would cost $10, I bet he'd make a lot more money on Steam. I bet they are bombarded with requests to have games distributed there, I wonder if any of these games could actually even get on Steam?

The "Steam (and similar services) is the future of PC game sales." idea probably deserves its own thread, but I think its definitely the case, for the copy protection as much as anything. Sadly, developers seem to be flocking to the consoles vs PC, and you often hear piracy as one of the big reasons. So far, Steam seems to quell that, and devs seem to be using Steam just for the copy protection. Empire: Total War comes out soon, and one little tidbit that I found interesting was that even if you buy a retail boxed copy, you must use Steam to verify your purchase in order to play the game.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Samdari

So far, Steam seems to quell that, and devs seem to be using Steam just for the copy protection. Empire: Total War comes out soon, and one little tidbit that I found interesting was that even if you buy a retail boxed copy, you must use Steam to verify your purchase in order to play the game.

nba 2k9 was the same way. as was this latest version of FM/WWSM (i believe)

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by sabotai

Ok. I played Head Coach and like the premise of that kind of UI, but the game did take it too far IMO. like "pushing" individual players on to you during FA. Sometimes it would force me to have to bid on my second choice before I had a chance to go after my first choice. It would be better to just say "Hey, it's FA time. These players just signed and here is a list of your remaining targeted players. Click over there to see all available FAs".

I agree it went too far. I didn't so much feel like I was being pushed but more like I was being dragged kicking and screaming into tasks. Do this, do that, blah blah blah. Felt too much like my wife found out I had an extra day off and was planning it out for me.

[Fidatelo]

I think text sims are running into the same problem that console sports games are having in recent years: the idea of simulating a sport down to the most detailed level is more fun than the actual reality of execution.

For example, I found it interesting that Mac broke the three core components of a sim into squad management, tactics, and motivation (essentially). Personally, I'm really only interested in squad management, which is all that early text sims really focused on. But of course because FM and other games have incorporated the latter two, everyone feels they are a necessity. The most frustrating part of any modern text sim, for me, is that I can often only succeed if I micro-manage the tactics. Yes, theoretically I can assign coaches to do that, but in most games it is ineffective or outright broken. So I end up frustrated because I just want to build up a squad of solid players through trades and drafting, but in the end I spend most of my time trying to decide what training player X should be doing given about 400 variables like his current fitness level and the position of the moon in relation to the starship enterprise.

[Philliesfan980]

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA

Whereas this former regular consumer of text sims thinks OOTP has probably gotten the biggest free pass in the whole genre, which is one of the reasons I've got little faith in seeing games improve. Multi-generational issues with text sims games and developers that refuse to fix them, which stands as the true hallmark & legacy of OOTP, seem to just be accepted by many at this point, which in turn leaves me with very little confidence that there's enough motivation for other devs to avoid the same thing. And that leaves me with a very limited sense of loss from the absence of new product that was the point of this thread.

Meanwhile I watch tabletop games develop for free literally before my eyes in collaboration with users, and have been satisfied with the direct translations to PC that I've seen/bought/sampled. While some users are heading to consoles (and count me in that number to some extent as Fallout 3 led me to Oblivion, which has chewed up my gaming hours for a couple of months) others also head back to their roots on the tabletop or with tabletop/ computer hybrid games (which are actually my favorite of the options).

But I really don't get the lamentations about the genre as a whole, not given the point things seemed to be headed for. There's not enough worthwhile progress between versions, support is all over the board, buying supposedly finished games only to find out that you're really just paying to be the next round of beta testing, etc. Sorry but a lot of the problems the genre faces are of their own making, and with the complicity of a too forgiving consumer base that led them to believe those things were okay.

Count me in as someone who's getting back into the tabletop/pc hybrid model of gaming (Second and Ten, Replay Baseball, etc), and going to the console for my non-sports fix. To me, I'm too much of a sports nut and no game is ever going to let me have the same timing as Chase Utley, or the pitching accuracy of Cole Hamels. It's just not possible.

I'd also agree with the other post in the thread who mentions the idea of running a professional sports team is more fun than the actual execution of it. I used to play FOF, OOTP, etc, but at the end of the day, I was having more fun with my 1984 NL replay than worrying about how my 4 star prospect was doing in Single A. I spend a ton of time managing minute details in my real job, and after a while, it just wasn't fun doing it in my free time. I'd rather spend the free time that I do have watching the game unfold between the lines than the stuff outside the lines. Just my 2 cents.

[DaddyTorgo]

eh - i'll come in on the other side of the equation and say that tabletop games don't really interest me as much. With the exception of my LOTR tabletop game (which I've still never gotten anyone to play with me. grrrr)

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo

eh - i'll come in on the other side of the equation and say that tabletop games don't really interest me as much. With the exception of my LOTR tabletop game (which I've still never gotten anyone to play with me. grrrr)

Which LotR table top game do you have? I don't really play any table top game ever. Last one I really played was strat-o-matic (if that is what people are referring to as table top games).

I do have an old LotR game that I would consider a "table top game" if I understand what people are speaking about though that I used to play with my father when I was younger. An old 1970s board game called War of the Ring

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

Which LotR table top game do you have? I don't really play any table top game ever. Last one I really played was strat-o-matic (if that is what people are referring to as table top games).

I do have an old LotR game that I would consider a "table top game" if I understand what people are speaking about though that I used to play with my father when I was younger. An old 1970s board game called War of the Ring

That might be the one that I have.

Let me go try to find it online to make sure and throw up a linky.

War of the Ring | BoardGameGeek

I'd love to find someone to play with - I have one buddy but he was a wet-blanket when we tried to play one time.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by Samdari

I wonder if any of these games could actually even get on Steam?

FM and OOTP are on Steam.

[lynchjm24]

In a way it's the community's fault. Markus can't make OOTP financially viable as a MLB sim. If the community had just allowed the game to be developed as a modern MLB sim the game would be miles ahead of where it is. Instead, it has to be able to play 1890's baseball, baseball in the Congo and if you use players from the 60's and put them in a 2090 space league they better play close to their real life careers.

If OOTP was a 2009 MLB sim there is no doubt that the game would be 10x better then it is. Instead of being a B/B+ game to 50 different masters it could be an A/A+ game with a focused approach.

People won't spend the $40 though unless their pet feature is considered. It's why if Jim developed a baseball game it would be tighter. He'd make the game he wants to play, which is always going to be better then making the game that other people want to play.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

He'd make the game he wants to play, which is always going to be better then making the game that other people want to play.

This approach has pluses and minuses - as you say, the game would be much tighter given the focus on making the game the developer wants to play, but it also presents the problem of forcing whatever quirks the developer has about the game onto the user.

TCY was a great game, but there were some aspects that were difficult to reconcile as a user in feeling totally immersed in the game - mainly, the emphasis on academics. Jim knew it wasn't realistic, but he didn't care - he wanted it in the game. As a result, the game was unrealistic and presented a path to success that felt contrived and hurt my ability to feel as immersed in the game as I could've been.

That's not to say I don't want another TCY or to see Jim's take on an MLB sim, but there are drawbacks to this kind of approach.

[Buccaneer]

Yes, that approach has its pluses and minuses. Playing historical careers have been the ONLY way that I've played OOTP. If they did not have that ability, the game would have not gotten any interest from me whatsoever.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

This approach has pluses and minuses - as you say, the game would be much tighter given the focus on making the game the developer wants to play, but it also presents the problem of forcing whatever quirks the developer has about the game onto the user.

TCY was a great game, but there were some aspects that were difficult to reconcile as a user in feeling totally immersed in the game - mainly, the emphasis on academics. Jim knew it wasn't realistic, but he didn't care - he wanted it in the game. As a result, the game was unrealistic and presented a path to success that felt contrived and hurt my ability to feel as immersed in the game as I could've been.

That's not to say I don't want another TCY or to see Jim's take on an MLB sim, but there are drawbacks to this kind of approach.

There certainly are drawbacks, and some of the stuff in TCY is a good example. My point isn't that Jim would make a better game then Markus. I think Markus would have made a great game if he just chose one vision. It doesn't seem like that is commercial viable, so instead we all get a game that the majority only likes instead of loves.

We've gotten away from fun and into details. I always thought I'd love more detail in OOTP, complicated waivers, etc. In the end it turns out it was the wrong path, those features certainly don't add any fun to the game.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Buccaneer

Yes, that approach has its pluses and minuses. Playing historical careers have been the ONLY way that I've played OOTP. If they did not have that ability, the game would have not gotten any interest from me whatsoever.

Thanks. This is why the text sim market is stagnant. Everyone will only play the game they want to play. Which is fine, that's how markets work, but this is why there is nothing going on in the text sim world other then a new version of OOTP. (Throwing out the soccer game as people seem thrilled with it).

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I don't really play any table top game ever.

Actually you (kind of) do ... you just don't play them in the traditional way.

The vast majority of sports text sims can really be boiled down to more complex cousins of the basic tabletop formula, give or take a little that's just a comparison of skills relative to each other indexed against a set of possibe outcomes based on those ratios, weighted toward the most likely outcomes.

The range of outcomes is usually greater with the PC games because they're capable of handling more data quickly & efficiently than is user friendly for literal dice & charts but the core is almost always very similar.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

We've gotten away from fun and into details. I always thought I'd love more detail in OOTP, complicated waivers, etc. In the end it turns out it was the wrong path, those features certainly don't add any fun to the game.

I agree, which is why I have continued to play an older version.

[Mota]

Originally Posted by Atocep

Steam (and similar services) is the future of PC game sales. I'd think its at least worth looking into.

Cause good luck finding a non-WoW PC game in an EB Games store these days. Now it's just reserved for used product and new console games designed to lure in more used business. Since PC games are not resellable this is like the plague to them they only carry about 5 titles on PC.

They really have no choice but to go digital.

[Fidatelo]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

We've gotten away from fun and into details. I always thought I'd love more detail in OOTP, complicated waivers, etc. In the end it turns out it was the wrong path, those features certainly don't add any fun to the game.

This is what I was trying to get at in my post a ways back. Realism sounds cool, but most of the time it isn't actually all that fun.

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

In a way it's the community's fault. Markus can't make OOTP financially viable as a MLB sim. If the community had just allowed the game to be developed as a modern MLB sim the game would be miles ahead of where it is. Instead, it has to be able to play 1890's baseball, baseball in the Congo and if you use players from the 60's and put them in a 2090 space league they better play close to their real life careers.

If OOTP was a 2009 MLB sim there is no doubt that the game would be 10x better then it is. Instead of being a B/B+ game to 50 different masters it could be an A/A+ game with a focused approach.

People won't spend the $40 though unless their pet feature is considered. It's why if Jim developed a baseball game it would be tighter. He'd make the game he wants to play, which is always going to be better then making the game that other people want to play.

Which is why I've played BM over the last two years, even though I have bought both games over the past two years. It all looks great with millions of stats and what not, but I would agree.. it's too much.

I'm really hoping this year we can get a quickstart that has everything for the real MLB type player.. I'm talking rosters, jerseys, logos, the correct draft # of rounds, best settings for trades, etc..

With ootp, I'm always wondering if there isn't something I'm missing on one of the many setup pages within the game.

It kills me that console sports game players want all of these waivers, arbitration, etc.. I just want to play the game.

[Big Fo]

I'd rather have a B+ level game with OOTP's options than an A level game where the only thing you can do is start in a 2009 MLB setup and go from there.

[lynchjm24]

Originally Posted by Big Fo

I'd rather have a B+ level game with OOTP's options than an A level game where the only thing you can do is start in a 2009 MLB setup and go from there.

You are probably in the majority (or at least a very vocal minority) and this is why OOTP is what it is. B+ is probably generous to OOTP, but as far as we know it's the only game that is still being actively developed and marketed, so it gets a boost for that I guess.

The OOTP boards seem dead even with the announcement of the new game. Maybe I'm misremembering but it seems that a new version announced at this time of the year would lead to heavy traffic. I'll buy OOTP 10, but let's face it, it's probably not going to be any better then the last version. The AI will still suck, player development will be illogical and the scouting system will be so broken it can't be used.

The lack of excitement makes the game seem stale, I don't know if it's because interest has fallen or because the OOTP boards suck and the good posters have fled. Most of who is left has an agenda they have been pushing for years. Examples like accurate schedules for long ago defunct minor leagues, how many hundreds of posts are there on something so obscure and unimportant to a *game*.

I have no idea why people would trade a better game for flexibility, but the vocal OOTP fans want flexibility. For some reason as the flexibility has grown the general interest seems to have dropped, so I've never been able to figure out if it's a true majority or a very vocal minority.

I've tried to get friends I thought would be interested in this genre involved. People from fantasy leagues, people who will make long baseball road trips, people who at an Eastern League game know the background of a lot of the players without a program. I've struck out across the board, not one person I've tried to turn onto to text sims has been interested.

I think it's pretty obvious on FOFC that the interest in these games is down across the board. If the people who post here have seemingly lost interest then why would anyone take the amount of time necessary to program a text sim as a financial venture?

[Alan T]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

The OOTP boards seem dead even with the announcement of the new game. Maybe I'm misremembering but it seems that a new version announced at this time of the year would lead to heavy traffic.

I personally feel that their boards have been lower level of activity for a few years now. Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I think the ootp6 -> SI merger step is where many people disappeared. It goes back to exactly what I said above... Many many people felt (myself included) felt that ootp6 was a very solid version of the game. It was not perfect, but it was pretty darn good and it only needed some more time and effort on the engine to work out the AI qwerkyness, some work in the financial model to try to work out some of the off AI behaviors, etc. It needed dedicated time to iron out the kinks.

Instead of trying to further polish a really good game, the next version after the SI merger was the start of adding in all kinds of bells and whistles that many found unnecessary or unwanted. The faulty AI logic in various places remained as best anyone could tell untouched or without much time attached to it.

Due to that year alone, I feel OOTP lost a decent number of fans who followed it. Of course the people who are still active and participating on the boards were the ones that wanted all of the various small features here or there, so they stayed around and active I suppose. Other than those individuals, I am not sure how many people have been as excited about an OOTP release since ootp 6 however.

That said, I did enjoy ootp9, but it just eats me up inside that various bugs were reported and never got fixed in any patch. Instead new features were rolled out in patches that further broke things. I really wish OOTP (and other text sims) would put out a full released product with all of the intended features. Don't use patches to roll out new features, just use the patches to fix existing features and try to make the final product as bug free as possible.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by lynchjm24

I'll buy OOTP 10, but let's face it, it's probably not going to be any better then the last version. The AI will still suck, player development will be illogical and the scouting system will be so broken it can't be used.

You do see the disconnect in that paragraph, right? And then we wonder why we get games with issues that never go away? Not singling you out of course, I imagine nearly all of us have bought at least a game or two knowing full well we were going to be disappointed in the end but we do tend to act as our own worst enemies as consumers at times.

If the people who post here have seemingly lost interest then why would anyone take the amount of time necessary to program a text sim as a financial venture?

If what a small portion of the consumer base we represent, as we've been told a few times over the years, is to be believed then that shouldn't be a overriding factor.

[Alan T]

It is threads like this one that are exactly what I am saying is wrong with text sims:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...fe-thread.html

Why in the world would anyone want a single second spent on a feature like this when instead it could be used on cleaning up the AI or other various bugs.

[DaddyTorgo]

Originally Posted by Alan T

It is threads like this one that are exactly what I am saying is wrong with text sims:

The Official Bring Back OOTP Girlfriend/Wife Thread - OOTP Developments Forums

Why in the world would anyone want a single second spent on a feature like this when instead it could be used on cleaning up the AI or other various bugs.

Seriously. And I think part of the problem may be that Markus and other dev's actually spend time thinking "well what if i don't listen to this guy, do i lose his sale?" or worse yet, actually cater to his request, instead of fixing the nuts and bolts of the game and making gameplay solid.

[Capital]

Alan T hit it right regarding OOTP. Even though I bought OOPT7 and 9 that merger to SIs style took me away from the game. I haven't decided if I will try OOPTX or not. I was hoping that DDS:PB would be ready for Spring/Summer but I'm not sure it will.

As for Steam, is there any way to stop Steam from launching when I start my PC? Ever since I bought NBA2K9 for the PC and installed Steam, it takes forever for my PC to respond after Window XP is loaded.

I don't mind launching Steam when I'm ready to run the game but just not on startup.

[ArlingtonColt]

Piracy effects console games just as much as PC games these days... and pirates have found a way to go around the steam activation for games so it just makes the people who buy the game frustrated, not the piraters. The only console system that is semi-pirate free at the moment is the PS3, but when the blu-ray burners and blank discs go down in price it will be just as ravaged as the rest of them.

[Izulde]

Count me as another one who's off the OOTP bandwagon. Last version I bought was 2007 and I don't see myself buying another one. Too much work to set everything up and while I appreciate the improvements they're trying to make to the UI, it still doesn't beat 6.5, nor does it top what we've seen so far of DDS:BB, which I'm quietly having high hopes for.

[Fidatelo]

Agree with Alan T as well regarding OOTP6->SI. I bought 5 and 6 (and I think 6.5 if I remember right, it's been awhile), but I had no interest in moving to the SI version.

[Galaril]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Count me as another one who's off the OOTP bandwagon. Last version I bought was 2007 and I don't see myself buying another one. Too much work to set everything up and while I appreciate the improvements they're trying to make to the UI, it still doesn't beat 6.5, nor does it top what we've seen so far of DDS:BB, which I'm quietly having high hopes for.

Totally agree. I like most people work hard all day long and the last thing I want is to wrok all night to set up to do my hobby that is why I go mountain/rock climbing and camping for that. The one thing tht the sim industry has helped me do is become reacquainted with the tabletop board game sports games out there and am having a blast playing them all from baseball to football to basketball. And it seems relaly reasonable especially when you consider the large amount of trading within the tabletop sports forums community. I just recently got soem great trades where I was able to trade a few things where I actually got about 200 dollars additional value for what I traded for.

[AgustusM]

I am obviously in the minority here but I love OOTP, I believe every version has been better than the previous and I only play MLB - I have never played one second of anything but MLB. The strength of OOTP to me is the ability to turn things off if I don't want to use them, no other game I have ever played has been as customizable. there are 50 details in there that are important to me

I think the AI argument is off based from the standpoint that no game I have ever played has gotten the AI exactly right and there is no way to even get the AI right in a sports game since AI is an attempt to mirror human behavior. Is the AI broken when Brain Sabean gives a mediocre Barry Zito twice what anyone else is offering him, is the AI broken in the entire Manny Ramirez saga? Humans make odd decisions, and there are so many real world factors involved.

I also cringe at many of the suggestions I see on the boards. I could never do what Markus does and try to weed through all the nonsense to get to the good suggestions.

no doubt Markus deserves some criticism, the multiple mergers and breakups has been odd and he completely dropped the ball on the h2h deal. I also think the original SI release was rushed and was mostly a disaster. However in the long run the game is far better off with the new interface. Many have sited that v6 is a better game than the current version. I don't see it. I loved 6 at the time but when I look at it now it feels as outdated as windows 2000.

[muns]

Originally Posted by Alan T

I personally feel that their boards have been lower level of activity for a few years now. Maybe I am remembering wrong, but I think the ootp6 -> SI merger step is where many people disappeared. It goes back to exactly what I said above... Many many people felt (myself included) felt that ootp6 was a very solid version of the game. It was not perfect, but it was pretty darn good and it only needed some more time and effort on the engine to work out the AI qwerkyness, some work in the financial model to try to work out some of the off AI behaviors, etc. It needed dedicated time to iron out the kinks.

Instead of trying to further polish a really good game, the next version after the SI merger was the start of adding in all kinds of bells and whistles that many found unnecessary or unwanted. The faulty AI logic in various places remained as best anyone could tell untouched or without much time attached to it.

Due to that year alone, I feel OOTP lost a decent number of fans who followed it. Of course the people who are still active and participating on the boards were the ones that wanted all of the various small features here or there, so they stayed around and active I suppose. Other than those individuals, I am not sure how many people have been as excited about an OOTP release since ootp 6 however.

That said, I did enjoy ootp9, but it just eats me up inside that various bugs were reported and never got fixed in any patch. Instead new features were rolled out in patches that further broke things. I really wish OOTP (and other text sims) would put out a full released product with all of the intended features. Don't use patches to roll out new features, just use the patches to fix existing features and try to make the final product as bug free as possible.

Totally agree with what Alan says here.

I had HIGH hopes for the first SI version of OOTP. I bought 6 and loved playing that and I assumed that SI would take it to the next level. It didnt and I played and entire 5 hours of that game total, (my worst Sim experience) and I fell off the OOTP bandwagon after that.

I picked up ootp 9 due to some of the posters around here that I trust when they said it wasnt bad and it was a much improved game.

I have enjoyed ootp 9 without a doubt, but thats mainly because of the online league (FOOL) that I play in.

As Alan and others have pointed out there are bugs that drive me up a wall, but patches keep being out out that doesnt address the little things that go on.

I doubt I upgrade to 10 unless the league goes for it.

[Buccaneer]

Like others (thanks to Alan for articulating), OOTP had left me when they went to v7 (or whatever version that was called).