The Official Superbowl XLII Thread!!

[Lathum]

Lol at Romagoth.

Eli whines and cries?

The biggest criticism Eli gets is that he is emotionless.

There is such a flawed view of Eli it is a joke.

[Dr. Sak]

Originally Posted by Lathum

There is such a flawed view of Eli it is a joke.

[rkmsuf]

Shorty 4EVA

[stevew]

Originally Posted by larrymcg421

62 61 69 74 = bait

I'm trying to figure out the significance of those numbers, but am drawing a blank. I'm sure it's something obvious.

[stevew]

Oh, and I would assume that Shockey going down a few weeks ago is yet another great example of the "Patrick Ewing effect."

And with the type of weapons that Eli has, I would expect him to post a better than mediocre type QB Rating. Although maybe he's just Bradshaw 2.0

[rkmsuf]

Eli has thrown 17, 18 and 20 ints the last 3 years and completed only like 55% of his passes. Has a QB rating south of 80.

What exactly would you be excited about? His great leadership? Uh, ok.

Guy is barely average. At draft pick 1.1, I think Giant fans and NFL fans should expect more.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Lol at Romagoth.

Eli whines and cries?

The biggest criticism Eli gets is that he is emotionless.

There is such a flawed view of Eli it is a joke.

+1

For the life of me, I dont get that perception of him. If anything (as a Giants fan), I wish he would be more vocal to his recievers when they drop easy passes.

I think fair criticism is that he is timid & scared to get hit(i.e. a pussy)...that he is inaccurate on medium range passes(i.e. not focused or disciplined)... that he doesnt seem to possess leadership attributes (i.e. taking charge & keeping his players accountable for their f-ups)...and being emotionless win or lose(i.e. losing does not seem to bother him enough).

Whining & crying?? I dont see it.

[jeff061]

It's what his brother does. Some of that shadow gets cast on him. And as was stated, people still aren't over the San Diego thing.

[Lathum]

In his first four seasons Eli had 77tds and 64 ints and an average rating of 70.55 in 57 starts.

Troy Aikman had 54 td's and 60 int's with an average rating of 74.625 in 54 starts.

I am IN NO WAY saying Eli is a better QB then Aikman but he is only in his 4th year for christs sake. His numbers aren't that bad and he has gotten better each year and turned into more of a leader on and off the field.

He led them to 3 consecutive playoff apearances and now to the super bowl in his first 4 years, how many QB's can say that?

People really need to let go of something a naive 22 year old kid pulled 4 years ago at his fathers urging. This guy is a model citizen and has developed into a winner and a leader.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Lathum

In his first four seasons Eli had 77tds and 64 ints and an average rating of 70.55 in 57 starts.

Troy Aikman had 54 td's and 60 int's with an average rating of 74.625 in 54 starts.

I am IN NO WAY saying Eli is a better QB then Aikman but he is only in his 4th year for christs sake. His numbers aren't that bad and he has gotten better each year and turned into more of a leader on and off the field.

He led them to 3 consecutive playoff apearances and now to the super bowl in his first 4 years, how many QB's can say that?

People really need to let go of something a naive 22 year old kid pulled 4 years ago at his fathers urging. This guy is a model citizen and has developed into a winner and a leader.

He's not much of a leader and actually got worse this year statistically. That's why the awe of the last 4 games with this guy. Total surprise. Maybe he's turned the corner but in total he's certainly nothing special which from a fans perspective is disappointing. Fair or not.

In a weak NFC you look for him to be the difference by now. Clearly he hasn't been. 20 picks and 56% is not good.

[Lathum]

6 of those picks were in a 2 game span.

I don't know how you can say a guy who led his team to the superbowl isn't a leader. Not to mention there was alot of uncertainty going into this season.

It would have been easy for them to fold after an 0-2 start, instead they have won 10 straight road games. You gonna honestly tell me that has nothing to do with Eli?

[Lathum]

dola- not to mention he led them to a 10-6 record. 5 of those loses were to playoff teams.

[gstelmack]

I think another issue with Manning this year was not actually his fault. The Giants' receivers dropped the most balls in the league this year, and I don't think it had anything to do with how he threw them.

But to be fair he was getting happy feet. The big knock on him was if you got pressure, he'd start just throwing it up there. One big factor in the team's improvement is the offensive line gelling and not letting people get near him.

Any number one overall pick gets this kind of pressure / talk in this day and age. Look at the attention Mario Williams garnered, for example. Alex Smith has issues. Etc etc.

Edit: Plus he's in New York. They shine a pretty big spotlight there.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Any number one overall pick gets this kind of pressure / talk in this day and age. Look at the attention Mario Williams garnered, for example. Alex Smith has issues. Etc etc.

.

except neither of those guys have had the impact Eli has had

[ISiddiqui]

Texan fans may disagree with that one. Williams was a beast this season.

[Lathum]

Here are the last 9 number 1 overall picks. Who has done more so far then Eli?

1998 Indianapolis Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee
1999 Cleveland Tim Couch, QB, Kentucky
2000 Cleveland Courtney Brown, DE, Penn State
2001 Atlanta Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech
2002 Houston David Carr, QB, Fresno State
2003 Cincinnati Carson Palmer, QB, USC
2004 San Diego Eli Manning, QB, Mississippi
2005 San Francisco Alex Smith, QB Utah
2006 Houston Mario Williams, DE North Carolina State

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Texan fans may disagree with that one. Williams was a beast this season.

did he lead them to the playoffs and 10 consecutive road wins?

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

did he lead them to the playoffs and 10 consecutive road wins?

Are we talking about team accomplishments or individual ones? Because I'm quite sure Eli's defense and running game probably had a role in some of that. Especially considering the fact that the Giants were 21st in the league in passing, but 4th in rushing and 7th in total defense.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

In response to RomaGoth, I can accept that people don't like the Mannings or other athletes. To not like a guy is one thing. To make a guy's performance look worse than it is (when it's already just average to begin with) is another. I mean, there are a lot of basketball fans (and players) who hated Karl Malone, but I don't think anyone ever claimed that he wasn't a very good ballplayer. They just didn't like him, and that's fine. I just hear very few people besides Chargers fans just say that they don't like Eli Manning. They say that they don't like him, and then they go on to add how he's such a terrible quarterback.

It doesn't bother me that people talk about Eli Manning. I guess I just don't get it. Aren't there worse starting quarterbacks to say bad things about? Maybe somebody who can't even get his team to the playoffs? I just don't understand.

I suppose I should just let it go, as Eli Manning is pretty much in the same shoes that Rex Grossman was last year, and I've never defended Rex Grossman in my life. I dunno. Maybe I feel bad for Eli in a way. I really shouldn't. He's about to play in the Super Bowl, and he makes millions of dollars a year. I'm sitting here at work with coal dust on my hands. I don't think he needs me.

I don't think Eli is a terrible QB. In fact, with another year or two he could be a top 10 or even top 5 QB in the NFL. My problem is his attitude. I am not a Chargers fan, but what he did to them is indicative of today's professional athlete: spoiled and thinks the world owes them something. Manning is nowhere near the level of Rex Grossman. Grossman is terrible and should be parking cars somewhere instead of being paid the money he is being paid to play football.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui

Are we talking about team accomplishments or individual ones? Because I'm quite sure Eli's defense probably had a role in some of that. Especially considering the fact that the Giants were 21st in the league in passing.

sure but to say he didn't have a huge effect on that is silly. Not to mention he played hurt the first few games.

Obviously football is a team sport but to bash Eli makes no sense. Everyone loves Carson Palmer but what has he ever done?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

My problem is his attitude. I am not a Chargers fan, but what he did to them is indicative of today's professional athlete: spoiled and thinks the world owes them something. .

Like you never did something in your proffesianal life when you were 22 and naive?

Where were you last year when Rivers was tearing it up and the chargers were 14-2?

Jesus christ, move on already.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

I think fair criticism is that he is timid & scared to get hit(i.e. a pussy)...that he is inaccurate on medium range passes(i.e. not focused or disciplined)... that he doesnt seem to possess leadership attributes (i.e. taking charge & keeping his players accountable for their f-ups)...and being emotionless win or lose(i.e. losing does not seem to bother him enough).

Huh. If you take away all of the above what do you have left? A QB who makes millions of dollars but can't throw the ball, is unable to lead his team, and doesn't care if he wins or not. Huh.

Nice pick in the first round, Giants.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Lathum

In his first four seasons Eli had 77tds and 64 ints and an average rating of 70.55 in 57 starts.

Troy Aikman had 54 td's and 60 int's with an average rating of 74.625 in 54 starts.

I am IN NO WAY saying Eli is a better QB then Aikman but he is only in his 4th year for christs sake. His numbers aren't that bad and he has gotten better each year and turned into more of a leader on and off the field.

He led them to 3 consecutive playoff apearances and now to the super bowl in his first 4 years, how many QB's can say that?

People really need to let go of something a naive 22 year old kid pulled 4 years ago at his fathers urging. This guy is a model citizen and has developed into a winner and a leader.

I never liked Aikman or the Cowboys, but Aikman played on some horrid teams before they finally turned the corner under Jimmy Johnson. The jury is still out for Eli, but at this point I would call him a disappointment. You have to be better than he has been when you are a 1st rounder and make that kind of money. Bottom line.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

sure but to say he didn't have a huge effect on that is silly. Not to mention he played hurt the first few games.

Obviously football is a team sport but to bash Eli makes no sense. Everyone loves Carson Palmer but what has he ever done?

Well Palmer's QB ratings speak for themselves really. Eli can't even compete (his highest rating 77.0 last season). Sure he's got a better team around him, but does that necessarily make him a better QB?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Like you never did something in your proffesianal life when you were 22 and naive?

I might have, but I sure as hell wasn't making millions of dollars and insulting an entire fan base.

Where were you last year when Rivers was tearing it up and the chargers were 14-2?

Don't care. Not a Chargers fan. This was not about Rivers anyway. Or was it?

[jeheinz72]

As much as I'd love the Giants to, by some miracle or miracles keep the '72 Fins as the only undefeated team, I'm pretty resigned that it's not happening. Looking at all of the facets of the game, I'd give the Giants the advantage in what, maybe 2 or 3 of them (Pass rush, maybe running game and like Punter) and the Pats have a gigantic advantage in most facets (Brady, coaching even though I hate He Who Shall Not Be Named, receivers, defensive backfield, kicker...)

It's going to be like 33-14 or some such.

No disrespect to the Giants or Eli. Great run getting to the Super Bowl, but it just...isn't...happening.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Huh. If you take away all of the above what do you have left? A QB who makes millions of dollars but can't throw the ball, is unable to lead his team, and doesn't care if he wins or not. Huh.

Nice pick in the first round, Giants.

It's called fair criticism, not pulling things out of a hat like "whiny" or "crybaby", which make no sense no matter who's brother he is, or what team he used his draft stock to go to for his own perceived "better situation". Unless you are a Chargers fan, I dont see how you could still have that opinion of him, unless you have not seriously watched him.

All of those points I made are not necessarily the end all about Eli, but they are debatable and much more accurate than just inventing things to criticize him for. Moreso...even if they were all 100% the case...it isnt like he cant or wont improve in those areas.

Also...for the record...that year my choice for the Giants was to draft Roethlisberger. When they drafted Rivers I about puked. When they traded Rivers for Manning, I didnt like them giving away their 1st pick for the following year(SD would have taken Osi instead, still not ok), but it was(and I still say) better to have Eli than Rivers playing for the Giants. So, I'd say my criticism isnt so much that they got Manning, but that they didnt play hardball with San Diego or just draft Big Ben.

[Atocep]

I just skimmed through this thread, but are Giants fans now defending Eli Manning?

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

It's called fair criticism, not pulling things out of a hat like "whiny" or "crybaby", which make no sense no matter who's brother he is, or what team he used his draft stock to go to for his own perceived "better situation". Unless you are a Chargers fan, I dont see how you could still have that opinion of him, unless you have not seriously watched him.

All of those points I made are not necessarily the end all about Eli, but they are debatable and much more accurate than just inventing things to criticize him for. Moreso...even if they were all 100% the case...it isnt like he cant or wont improve in those areas.

Also...for the record...that year my choice for the Giants was to draft Roethlisberger. When they drafted Rivers I about puked. When they traded Rivers for Manning, I didnt like them giving away their 1st pick for the following year(SD would have taken Osi instead, still not ok), but it was(and I still say) better to have Eli than Rivers playing for the Giants. So, I'd say my criticism isnt so much that they got Manning, but that they didnt play hardball with San Diego or just draft Big Ben.

Hypothetical question: do you think that Eli would play injured like Rivers did this past weekend?

I don't.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I just skimmed through this thread, but are Giants fans now defending Eli Manning?

Yes.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Hypothetical question: do you think that Eli would play injured like Rivers did this past weekend?

I don't.

he did...week 2 vs. Green Bay. Not the same injury, but Eli's was actually on his throwing arm.

Do I think he is as tough as Favre, smart as Peyton, and smooth as Brady? Nope. But then, he never held that type of potential in my eyes.

Would I rather have Eli over Rivers? Yes...and I believed that last year as well. Believe me...I have had a lot of criticism for Eli, but I have never once wished we had Rivers.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I just skimmed through this thread, but are Giants fans now defending Eli Manning?

It's funny...I have actually never defended Eli before now. I guess it's the whiny or crying type of comments(not just from RomaGoth either) that I find silly.

Plenty to scrutinize with Eli, without making stuff up.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I just skimmed through this thread, but are Giants fans now defending Eli Manning?

To be fair, it actually started when a Broncos fan defended Eli Manning.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

It's funny...I have actually never defended Eli before now. I guess it's the whiny or crying type of comments(not just from RomaGoth either) that I find silly.

Plenty to scrutinize with Eli, without making stuff up.

Who is making stuff up? Everytime I see him during a game he is whining. To the refs, to the other team, to his teammates. Always whining. It started on draft day and has never stopped. He may turn into a decent QB, but right now he is just a whiny overpaid player IMHO.

Part of this is because I am so tired of hearing about the Manning's all the damn time too. Peyton this. Eli that. It gets old.

[st.cronin]

There has been some absurd criticism of Eli over the years. I definitely think he's a top 10 qb.

[Izulde]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

There has been some absurd criticism of Eli over the years. I definitely think he's a top 10 qb.

Can I borrow some of that crack you're smoking?

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Who is making stuff up? Everytime I see him during a game he is whining. To the refs, to the other team, to his teammates. Always whining.

How do you find anytime to watch him when you have 17 other favorite teams to watch

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

Who is making stuff up? Everytime I see him during a game he is whining. To the refs, to the other team, to his teammates. Always whining. It started on draft day and has never stopped. He may turn into a decent QB, but right now he is just a whiny overpaid player IMHO.

Could you please tell me your definition of "whining"? And next, tell me how many QB's do NOT fall into that definition. It honestly does not sound like you've ever watched Eli play.

Part of this is because I am so tired of hearing about the Manning's all the damn time too. Peyton this. Eli that. It gets old.

I'll agree that they get a lot of airtime, but much of that is the dam commercials. But it isn't all that common to have 2 brothers starting at QB(one of which is arguably top 5 alltime), both of which were 1-1 draft picks, & playing for good teams. It's the media's wetdream.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Izulde

Can I borrow some of that crack you're smoking?

LOL. But seriously, borrowing implies that you plan on returning said item at a future time. Who the hell wants used crack????

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by SteveMax58

Could you please tell me your definition of "whining"? And next, tell me how many QB's do NOT fall into that definition. It honestly does not sound like you've ever watched Eli play.


I'll agree that they get a lot of airtime, but much of that is the dam commercials. But it isn't all that common to have 2 brothers starting at QB(one of which is arguably top 5 alltime), both of which were 1-1 draft picks, & playing for good teams. It's the media's wetdream.

Agreed.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Lathum

How do you find anytime to watch him when you have 17 other favorite teams to watch

Ha. Not quite.

[Lathum]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I never liked Aikman or the Cowboys, but Aikman played on some horrid teams before they finally turned the corner under Jimmy Johnson. The jury is still out for Eli, but at this point I would call him a disappointment. You have to be better than he has been when you are a 1st rounder and make that kind of money. Bottom line.

Dude, you are insane.

The guys made the playoffs 3 of 4 years including going to the Superbowl this year, how can you say he needs to be better?alot of guys put up better numbers but he did what Tony Romo, Brett Favre, and Matt Hasselbeck couldn't do?

Seriously, what more do you want from him, the goal is to win championships, not put up 4,000 yard seasons, John Kitna can do that for fucks sake but John Kitna can't lead the Giants to the Superbowl.

[RomaGoth]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Dude, you are insane.

The guys made the playoffs 3 of 4 years including going to the Superbowl this year, how can you say he needs to be better?alot of guys put up better numbers but he did what Tony Romo, Brett Favre, and Matt Hasselbeck couldn't do?

Seriously, what more do you want from him, the goal is to win championships, not put up 4,000 yard seasons, John Kitna can do that for fucks sake but John Kitna can't lead the Giants to the Superbowl.

My insanity is another topic for another time. Are you seriously comparing Eli Manning to Brett Favre? That is absurd. Favre has actually won a super bowl. Matt Hasselbeck is overrated, maybe a top 15 QB but no better than that. Tony Romo has done nothing yet.

Romo was not drafted, Favre was a 2nd rounder, and Hasselbeck was a 6th rounder. None of them (besides maybe Favre) compare to Manning in regards to money/draft position/expectations.

Just saying'.

[Lathum]

No, I am not comparing them. IT IS A FACT that he did what none of those guys could do this year. And who really cares where he was drafted, he is in the league now.

Again I ask you, what more would you like Manning to do?

[Atocep]

I throw out my opinion of Eli.

I'm a Bears fan and for the past 2 years, even when Rex was looking like a MVP candidate last year, I've been telling a friend of mine (also a bears fan) that I would take Eli over any Bears QB without hesitation. Yes, that sounds pretty damn obvious now, but last year and even earlier this year that wasn't the case.

I strongly believe that Coughlin has held Eli back and is at fault for his lack of development. Also, prior to Plaxico breaking out this year, his receivers have been horrible. I don't know what has gotten into Burress this year, but he's played a lot better (especially in the 2nd half of the season and the playoffs) and its been a huge help to Eli.

There's no excuse for his completion percentage to be as low as it has been as a pro (thats the #1 thing killing his QB rating). He completed over 60% of his passes at Ole Miss and that should translate a lot better than it has. Put Eli in a more creative offense and I think you're looking at a top-10ish QB, because the talent is there.

[Lathum]

Fair assesment.

I think once Steve Smith develops more he will be a big boost to Manning

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I throw out my opinion of Eli.

I'm a Bears fan and for the past 2 years, even when Rex was looking like a MVP candidate last year, I've been telling a friend of mine (also a bears fan) that I would take Eli over any Bears QB without hesitation. Yes, that sounds pretty damn obvious now

I think it was perfectly obvious even last year. The praise that Grossman gets at times is as absurd as the criticism that Eli gets - Eli is vastly better than Grossman.

[ISiddiqui]

Originally Posted by Lathum

Seriously, what more do you want from him, the goal is to win championships, not put up 4,000 yard seasons, John Kitna can do that for fucks sake but John Kitna can't lead the Giants to the Superbowl.

If you give Kitna that running game and defense, how do you know he wouldn't?

I mean for the love of God, Kerry Collins led his team to the SuperBowl and went to the playoffs 2 out of 3 years from 2000 to 2002, and had better passer ratings than Eli Manning.

[SteveMax58]

Originally Posted by Atocep

I throw out my opinion of Eli.

I'm a Bears fan and for the past 2 years, even when Rex was looking like a MVP candidate last year, I've been telling a friend of mine (also a bears fan) that I would take Eli over any Bears QB without hesitation. Yes, that sounds pretty damn obvious now, but last year and even earlier this year that wasn't the case.

I would have agreed with you.

I strongly believe that Coughlin has held Eli back and is at fault for his lack of development. Also, prior to Plaxico breaking out this year, his receivers have been horrible. I don't know what has gotten into Burress this year, but he's played a lot better (especially in the 2nd half of the season and the playoffs) and its been a huge help to Eli.

I think thats pretty accurate. Couple that with, what I believe to be the main problem with Eli earlier this year, which is standing strong in the pocklet & his mechanics.

There's no excuse for his completion percentage to be as low as it has been as a pro (thats the #1 thing killing his QB rating). He completed over 60% of his passes at Ole Miss and that should translate a lot better than it has. Put Eli in a more creative offense and I think you're looking at a top-10ish QB, because the talent is there.

I do agree that his comp% could be better, but consider the following when looking at his comp%, and in comparison to some other non- West Coast style QB's:
John Elway had a >60% completion just 3 times in his career...and none until after 10 seasons. He also only had just 1 season >80 QB rating in those first 10 seasons. This of course includes his 3 SB losses. His final 6 seasons, however, all over 80(and of course 2 SB victories).

Dan Marino had just 5 >60% completion in his entire career. And just 2 in his first 10 seasons. It is worth noting that Dan had just 1 <80 QB Rating in this time...as without a running game he clearly had to pass for TD's.

Terry Bradshaw never had a comp% >60% and had just 2 >80 QB rating seasons in his first 11 seasons. This timespan included every SB victory he had for the Steelers.


I'm not pretending that Eli is comparable to these guys(and perhaps never will), and there are differring circumstances behind each of these QB's which made them great. I guess I'm just saying that 90 QB ratings & 60% completions are not the end all stats of measurement.

[sabotai]

Originally Posted by RomaGoth

I am not a Chargers fan, but what he did to them is indicative of today's professional athlete: spoiled and thinks the world owes them something.

Like John Elway?

I don't know how long you've been paying attention to football, or sports in general, but if you think refusing to play for the team that drafts you is some kind of new trend among spoiled athletes, you are seriously mistaken.