Nascar sucks!!!!

[RendeR]

You are correct and I should clarify myself a bit, when I say that players of non-sports such as golf are playing against themselves I am also stating that the other players have no direct effect on their play. Tiger woods game is in no way affected by the other golfers, its his strokes and his puts and his shots, no-one else can stop him from having a great day but himself. As for the athlete part, I'm on the fence here. Any schmuck with a beer gut and a hangover can play golf, they may not play WELL, but they can play. and I've seen many pro golfers who held no real athletic ability beyond the energy to walk a mile or so in a day. So on this point, I'm not really convinced. As an example, I am not in athletic shape at all, being far over weight, however I could with some practice, become talented at Golf. I am not an athlete.

By comparison, in Auto racing, there are upwards of 42 other guys out there that have a very real and direct affect on how you perform every week.

This would then accept billiards as a sport, as the other players shots have a direct bearing on your own, I'm not sure biliards players qualify as athletes, but since it requires some physical skill/ability to hit the shots, I can accept the althetic part of the game. Poker, however, is not IMO since it is not an athletic event, it is an intellectual one. And also is not effected by your opponent directly, as you must play your cards as you see fit, the other player does the same, and your mental slights of hand determine the outcome.

It was a very good point you brought up, thank you for helping me clear up the fogginess of my statement!

Ren

Actually there are hundreds of other professional golfers who have a direct affect on Tiger Woods game dependant on the type of tournament that is being played. Just like in gymnastics, which is a sport, there may not be a true link between competitors but how one person performs at any given moment can determine how another competitor may play out their next shot. This type of direct correlation among golfers plays a large roll in the strategies they use and how they go about implementing them through out their entire game. One example would be if a golfer decided to lay up on a particular shot instead of chancing the water hazard simply because of the fact that their closest competitor just hit the ball in the water and will most likely lose the hole. As well, one golfer can force another golfer to have a bad day if they put enough pressure on them by using an aggressive strategy. This has been used in many match play events to force golfers to make bad shots.

As far as the athleticism involved with golfing I will only assume that walking an 18 hole course in the direct sun is something any smuck with a beer gut and a hangover can do for four days straight with the stress of winning looming over their heads. Actually, any smuck with a beer gut and a hangover can drive a car in circles really fast. However, I was not speaking about just anyone but rather about professional golfers. Since we were originally discussing professional racers I figured it went without saying that the level of play would transfer over without further clarification. In this respect just as with professional racing not just anyone could achieve such a high level of play, which is just another reason why they among racers could be considered as athletes. Following your lines of thought about concentration as being a determining factor it can be argued that professional golfers have a devoted mind set for four days from the moment they wake up to the moment they fall asleep each and every one of those days, maybe even during their dreams. The focus required to win a professional golf tournament could easily match that of a NASCAR champion.

Also, I have seen many professional drivers that fit your description of, “no real athletic ability beyond the energy to walk a mile or so in a day.” The physical aspect of athleticism was not mentioned when describing professional drivers so why would it necessarily be required when considering professional golfers? You admit to not being in any athletic shape but consider yourself a driver of a sport filled with athletes. This seems to suggest that athletic shape doesn’t have to be apart of the equation. Furthermore, it can be argued that talent can be honed but not gained and that practicing golf would not necessarily lead to becoming a professional golfer.

In regards to billiards and poker or even chess for that matter it can all be argued on a whole or individually. Either way is ok by me since whether or not something is a sport will never be a final deciding factor as to whether or not I will enjoy the competition. For the record though, professional poker involves a great deal of direct competition among players who most certainly directly effect each other’s type of play as well as how well they play.

Other than that

[Dutch]

There is more to tense action than scoring and passing all the time.

In Soccer, when your favorite team goes up 1-0 in the first minute the game is over right? Wrong, you now have to watch your defense withstand 89 minutes of gut-wrenching defense. If when the other team scores, it means something.

When you go up 1-0 in the NBA, nobody cares. As a matter of fact, there are not many singular shots in basketball that matters. Except the won that wins the game.....which is what you end up with in Soccer. There is absolutely no difference, really!

Just depends what you like.

[RendeR]

Your points are well taken Courriers, I can only eliminate one item, that being the athleticism of race drivers. When I was actually driving, I was in fact in excellent condition and considered myself an athlete. At the time I drove the car on weekends, worked the shop during the week and captained our race team's indoor socer team to a second place league finish (damned penalty kicks!!!!)

but what you say has merit, I do see the affect now that other golfers could have. I still disagree with the golf/athlete situation, but am willing to agree to disagree =)

Well posted. I salute you!

Smile