9th grader expelled for kissing a girl

[clintl]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

That's weird, I would expect that a private Christian school would be more likely to have a rule against long "hippie" hair...

The excuse given in the media reports was that it equated shaved heads (or heads with hair cut too short) with potential gang activity. I'm sure it had a rule against long hair, too, and it probably had portraits of long-haired Jesus prominently displayed all over.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

I think CW may have alluded to this earlier, but church rules do not override the law.

The Church would disagree with you. The Bible certainly does.

At best, the Church (for the most part) agrees to pretend that this is otherwise. Less social upheaval that way.

[Crapshoot]

Originally Posted by Drake

The Church would disagree with you. The Bible certainly does.

At best, the Church (for the most part) agrees to pretend that this is otherwise. Less social upheaval that way.

The Church can disagree with me till kingdom come - hell, I'm still bothered by the idea that they have tax-exempt status.

I do concede your latter point is best followed for all parties involved.

[Huckleberry]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

That's weird, I would expect that a private Christian school would be more likely to have a rule against long "hippie" hair...

We like to call that Jesus hair.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Coffee Warlord

Although. In retrospect, I have MANY issues with any organization (school, business, whatever) controlling what you do *outside* of their time & building.

Just because you go to school somewhere or work somewhere does not mean you have the right to dictate the terms of my entire existance outside of said school/work.

A kid got kicked out of my high school (private, non-ecumenical) for getting drunk, dancing on a car and falling off and breaking his leg. "Conduct unbecoming a Brookstone student" was the phrase that they used. When my parents and I chose to go the private high school route, I signed up to follow their rules, on OR off campus. Period. That's really quite simple. If you don't want to be subject to a "conduct unbecoming" rule, then pick a different private school, or go the government school route.

[MrBigglesworth]

Originally Posted by Crapshoot

Fyi,
while I agree that its the church's right and what not and the girl knew the rules - would we be okay with this if the girl was expelled for kissing a black or jewish boy ? I think CW may have alluded to this earlier, but church rules do not override the law.

Bob Jones University up until 2000 had a rule against interracial dating. They changed the rule due to public opinion, not in the face of lawsuits.

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth

Bob Jones University up until 2000 had a rule against interracial dating. They changed the rule due to public opinion, not in the face of lawsuits.

Well, that and the fact that they wanted to get tax exempt status.

http://www.oyez.org/oyez/resource/case/39/

[albionmoonlight]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

The gov't isn't allowed to come into our homes and decide what we can and can't do - why is the church?

Because the government is constrained by the Constitution; the church is not.

As soon as the Church starts breaking into my house and/or harassing me, then I am going to hit them with lawsuits for harassment and destruction of property.

But if all the church is doing is saying that I can't be a member of the church/school because of what I do or say . . . . then that is their right (subject to whatever federal or state anti-discrimination statutes may be applicable to them as employers or places of public accomidation).

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

A kid got kicked out of my high school (private, non-ecumenical) for getting drunk, dancing on a car and falling off and breaking his leg. "Conduct unbecoming a Brookstone student" was the phrase that they used. When my parents and I chose to go the private high school route, I signed up to follow their rules, on OR off campus. Period. That's really quite simple. If you don't want to be subject to a "conduct unbecoming" rule, then pick a different private school, or go the government school route.

This is really no different than public school atheletes signing an honor code to be eligable to play for the school team.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by BrianD

This is really no different than public school atheletes signing an honor code to be eligable to play for the school team.

Great point.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Drake

Great point.

It is a good point. But would a football player get expelled for kissing a girl? Obviously not. I know people will say it's different, and it is - but it shouldn't be. Just like the earlier post comparing it to an inter-racial or inter-religion relationship. I just think there is something wrong with expelling someone for something they did on their own time, that did not cause any harm to anyone else.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I just think there is something wrong with expelling someone for something they did on their own time, that did not cause any harm to anyone else.

Then don't sign a statement in agreement with the following:

Originally Posted by the article above

The handbook states that "any behavior, on campus or away which indicates that a student has disregard for the spirit of the school standards, would be sufficient reason to ask for him/her to withdraw from Covenant Christian Academy."

[oliegirl]

Why does kissing a girl show "disregard for the spirit of the school standards"?

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Why does kissing a girl show "disregard for the spirit of the school standards"?

Because the girl she kissed looked like Alfred E Neuman.

[stevew]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Then don't sign a statement in agreement with the following:

You win the thread.

[JHandley]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

It is a good point. But would a football player get expelled for kissing a girl? Obviously not. I know people will say it's different, and it is - but it shouldn't be. Just like the earlier post comparing it to an inter-racial or inter-religion relationship. I just think there is something wrong with expelling someone for something they did on their own time, that did not cause any harm to anyone else.

But that's not the issue. The issue is whether or not a private school should be able to or not. If someone thinks it's wrong to expell a student for that reason, then they do not have to enroll there.

[Butter]

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to see both sides to this story until an extremely overwrought docudrama is made about it.... especially unless it goes straight to Cinemax.

[JHandley]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Why does kissing a girl show "disregard for the spirit of the school standards"?

Because they said so. As a private institution, they have the right to simply say so and it is.

[dacman]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Why does kissing a girl show "disregard for the spirit of the school standards"?

You have to ask? Come on now, don't be so dense. You know darn well why.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

Why does kissing a girl show "disregard for the spirit of the school standards"?

If the school interprets the scriptures to mean that homosexual behavior is sinful (which is my assumption here), then the behavoir she exhibited sounds like it is in direct conflict with the school standards.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Then don't sign a statement in agreement with the following:

The handbook states that "any behavior, on campus or away which indicates that a student has disregard for the spirit of the school standards, would be sufficient reason to ask for him/her to withdraw from Covenant Christian Academy."

From a legal standpoint, I think that the school is going to have to prove that a girl kissing another girl at a slumber party is clearly a violation of the "spirit of the school standards".

I agree in general that this private school should have the right to dictate standards of behavior for their students and be able to remove students that violate those standards (so long as said standards don't break the law), but the school also has the responsibility to clearly define what constitutes unacceptable behavior. Not knowing this school, I have no idea whether the girl's actions were clearly a violation of school policy.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

It is a good point. But would a football player get expelled for kissing a girl? Obviously not. I know people will say it's different, and it is - but it shouldn't be. Just like the earlier post comparing it to an inter-racial or inter-religion relationship. I just think there is something wrong with expelling someone for something they did on their own time, that did not cause any harm to anyone else.

So you aren't against the idea of the contract or the school expelling someone for violation of the contract, you just don't like the fact that a girl kissing another girl is considered against their contract?

I don't disagree with you, I'm just looking to get at the heart of your argument.

[oliegirl]

Yeah, I know why but that doesn't make it right. It makes it discrimination based on sexual orientation and that is wrong, I don't care who does it.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by BrianD

So you aren't against the idea of the contract or the school expelling someone for violation of the contract, you just don't like the fact that a girl kissing another girl is considered against their contract?

I don't disagree with you, I'm just looking to get at the heart of your argument.

she likes doing other women. not that I object to that.

[dacman]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to see both sides to this story until an extremely overwrought docudrama is made about it.... especially unless it goes straight to Cinemax.

Nah, Lifetime made for TV movie starring Melissa Gilbert and Kellie Martin.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by BrianD

So you aren't against the idea of the contract or the school expelling someone for violation of the contract, you just don't like the fact that a girl kissing another girl is considered against their contract?

I don't disagree with you, I'm just looking to get at the heart of your argument.

That's exactly her point, as far as I can tell.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

From a legal standpoint, I think that the school is going to have to prove that a girl kissing another girl at a slumber party is clearly a violation of the "spirit of the school standards".

I think this is essential. It is hard to know what is against the spirit of the school standards without more detail. There may be documents in place which contain these guidelines, but we haven't seen them yet.

I do hate to see this kind of discrimination, but it is not uncommon in the religious world. Many religions do view homosexuality as a sin.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

It is a good point. But would a football player get expelled for kissing a girl?

Actually, if there was an agreement against, let's say "public displays of affection", then yes, they could be.

(I figure if you go do hypothetical, so can I )

[bbor]

Question....if this girl had slapped another female......would she have gotten expelled?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

It makes it discrimination based on sexual orientation and that is wrong, I don't care who does it.

Actually, in this particular case (and in the wording of the assumption I made), it is *behavior*-based, not orientation.

Dawgfan: You may be right from a strictly legal standpoint. I'm just talking good ol' common sense here. I can't begin to count the number of private schools on the north side of metro Atlanta--both secular and ecumenical. I find it hard to believe that this family couldn't find one that more closely matched their values and behaviors. That's all I'm saying. It smells a little like someone trying to pick a fight.

[clintl]

I also agree that the school has the right to set standards. However, when the standards are vague (as they seem to be here), my understanding is that the law construes disagreements over the meaning of the terms of a contract against the drafter of the contract. Therefore, if the court decides the standards that were being agreed to were vague, the school won't be able to enforce them. I think there's a plausible case here.

One thing I've always wondered about these Christian schools that expel students for certain conduct, though - is expulsion really a Christian thing to do? Shouldn't a Christian school, if it really believes is Christianity as a mission, try using counseling and ministry to change behavior it disapproves of? Expulsion for this kind of thing seems to me hypocritical and counterproductive to their mission.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by bbor

Question....if this girl had slapped another female......would she have gotten expelled?

Dunno, I don't have a copy of their handbook & haven't seen any excerpts regarding that one way or the other.

[rkmsuf]

whoever reported the alleged kissing incident is a ninny

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

It smells a little like someone trying to pick a fight.

Let's not forget the girl was in the NINTH GRADE. To me, it smells like a troubled girl whose parents blame everybody else for her troubles.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Dawgfan: You may be right from a strictly legal standpoint. I'm just talking good ol' common sense here. I can't begin to count the number of private schools on the north side of metro Atlanta--both secular and ecumenical. I find it hard to believe that this family couldn't find one that more closely matched their values and behaviors. That's all I'm saying. It smells a little like someone trying to pick a fight.

Could very well be. Without knowing more details, like whether the other girls involved in the kissing were expelled as well, or were offended and complained to the school, how documented the school behavior standards are and how this school compares in quality of education to other reasonable options for this family, I have to reserve judgement.

Maybe other female posters here can elaborate on this, but my impression is that this kind of behavior in this setting at this general age range is something that happens relatively often and isn't necessarily a pre-cursor to a girl describing herself as lesbian. I believe that often girls at this age will "practice" kissing with other girls even though they're both straight. If that is true, then I would see that as further evidence that this school over-reacted and a big reason why the parents would be so pissed-off as to file suit against the school.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by clintl

Expulsion for this kind of thing seems to me hypocritical and counterproductive to their mission.

***WARNING*** ***WARNING***WARNING***

***BROAD GENERALIZATION AHEAD***


***WARNING***WARNING***WARNING***

To put it bluntly, not really. Forget the *stated* mission of these schools, if there is one that actually mentions reaching out to the wayward. For the VAST majority of parents who put their kids in private "Christian" schools, a large part of the motivation is sheltering them from certain types of kids/behaviors. It has nothing to do with reaching out, but with protection and creating what I like to call "fat sheep."


(Great, now here come the claims from the right that I'm not a "real Christian...")

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Let's not forget the girl was in the NINTH GRADE. To me, it smells like a troubled girl whose parents blame everybody else for her troubles.

Ninth grade would make her about 15. Seems like normal bahavior for someone of that age.

[dawgfan]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

Let's not forget the girl was in the NINTH GRADE. To me, it smells like a troubled girl whose parents blame everybody else for her troubles.

How is this evidence that the girl is troubled?

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by dawgfan

Could very well be. Without knowing more details, like whether the other girls involved in the kissing were expelled as well, or were offended and complained to the school, how documented the school behavior standards are and how this school compares in quality of education to other reasonable options for this family, I have to reserve judgement.

Maybe other female posters here can elaborate on this, but my impression is that this kind of behavior in this setting at this general age range is something that happens relatively often and isn't necessarily a pre-cursor to a girl describing herself as lesbian. I believe that often girls at this age will "practice" kissing with other girls even though they're both straight. If that is true, then I would see that as further evidence that this school over-reacted and a big reason why the parents would be so pissed-off as to file suit against the school.

That could be true, but my experience working with teenagers tells me that it was more likely lesbian experimentation as a rebellion against the rules of her school and/or parents.

[st.cronin]

Originally Posted by BrianD

Ninth grade would make her about 15. Seems like normal bahavior for someone of that age.

It's not normal for 15 year old girls to be kicked out of school, and then turn around and sue the school, which is what I was focused on.

I also doubt it's normal behavior for 15 year old girls to kiss other girls, but I really wouldn't know.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

whoever reported the alleged kissing incident is a ninny

I'd really have to hear more specific details about the alledged incidents, especially the all-girl sleepover. Preferably from both points of view and step-by-step.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by st.cronin

It's not normal for 15 year old girls to be kicked out of school, and then turn around and sue the school, which is what I was focused on.

I also doubt it's normal behavior for 15 year old girls to kiss other girls, but I really wouldn't know.

Normal as in "the majority of them do it?" No. However, it is a rapidly expanding trend.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Desnudo

I'd really have to hear more specific details about the alledged incidents, especially the all-girl sleepover. Preferably from both points of view and step-by-step.

I agree.

Otherwise this whole arguement is useless.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

Normal as in "the majority of them do it?" No. However, it is a rapidly expanding trend.

Not being a girl, I would suggest that it's not "normal". I can't really say though since I was busy playing with myself back then.

Anywho, it's more common now but I wouldn't say it's reached the majority status.

In short, I agree.

[Desnudo]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Anywho, it's more common now but I wouldn't say it's reached the majority status.

Some day, some day. I think the walls are coming down.

[JonInMiddleGA]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

(Great, now here come the claims from the right that I'm not a "real Christian...")

Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of "Well, DUH !!!!"


edit to add: I meant "duh" about the separation part, not the part about your Christianity (sad ain't it, that I felt the need to clarify that)

[Drake]

Originally Posted by SkyDog

To put it bluntly, not really. Forget the *stated* mission of these schools, if there is one that actually mentions reaching out to the wayward. For the VAST majority of parents who put their kids in private "Christian" schools, a large part of the motivation is sheltering them from certain types of kids/behaviors. It has nothing to do with reaching out, but with protection and creating what I like to call "fat sheep."

Which really isn't that surprising, given that the school's mission is rarely to reach out to others, but to educate Xian kids in a Xian setting. If their mission is outreach, they're really a ministry instead of a school.

I don't think there's really anything wrong with putting your kids in a sheltered environment. It doesn't help them deal with secular diversity, of course, but there's nothing necessarily wrong with it.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Butter_of_69

Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to see both sides to this story until an extremely overwrought docudrama is made about it.... especially unless it goes straight to Cinemax.

I know which most people here would vote for between a Lifetime movie and a Cinemax version where they're played by buxom 25yo's and the kiss scene is in the nude.

SI

[Ben E Lou]

Originally Posted by Drake

It doesn't help them deal with secular diversity, of course, but there's nothing necessarily wrong with it.

I would submit to you that in the vast majority of cases, sheltered kids have a very, very difficult time fulfilling the Great Commission, and don't get much better at it as adults.

The parent I respect the most in my community is a guy who was raised in one of those sheltered environments. As an adult, he looked around and said to himself, "I don't have ANY friends who don't follow Christ. That's completely counter to who Jesus was." He decided that his kids would be exposed to kids from "worldly" families (with close supervision, of course) so that they'd be set up to have authentic friendships with people outside the Church. It worked, too. Their daughter now works full-time for the same ministry I do, working with much wilder kids than would be found in your average church youth group. Their son, a senior in HS last year, was approached by a group of "party kids" last year who said, "We want to learn about the Bible, and we want YOU to teach us about it." Their other son's name was brought up to me just this past weekend by a now-college-graduated-former-party-kid-turned-believer as "the only kid in our high school who was cool and followed Christ."

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by clintl

One thing I've always wondered about these Christian schools that expel students for certain conduct, though - is expulsion really a Christian thing to do? Shouldn't a Christian school, if it really believes is Christianity as a mission, try using counseling and ministry to change behavior it disapproves of? Expulsion for this kind of thing seems to me hypocritical and counterproductive to their mission.

Could you imagine the flare-up if parents found out their kids were being counseled away from being homosexual in a private school. At some point, you just have to draw the line as to how much trouble you want to put up with. To them, expelling someone is not past that line but counseling is.

SI