A New National Anthem???

[maximus]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

Then your implication would be that "American = white". And most white citizens of African states are descendants of Europeans, not Americans...

Good point. I agree there. However, then we can all just assume that all blacks are Africans. This is also not the case as Haitians are of a darker skin as well as the Jamaicans. But again, what is American? Isn't an American basically a mixture of all races?

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by maximus

Good point. I agree there. However, then we can all just assume that all blacks are Africans. This is also not the case as Haitians are of a darker skin as well as the Jamaicans. But again, what is American? Isn't an American basically a mixture of all races?

Not necessarily. But everyone born here is definitely an American by birth, if not by choice. If they choose to renounce that for another label, that's their bidness.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

If they choose to renounce that for another label, that's their bidness.

Bidness?

I agree but while they may "want" to be called an African-American I will still oppose it and not appease their request. This has nothing to do with respect as Danny puts it. It has to do with what the truth is. A black person who was born in the United States can say he is African-American but he will be lying to everyone he says this to. It simply and plainly isn't the truth or the case.

[NoMyths]

No, it doesn't have to do with what the "truth" is. And you're not qualified to be the arbiter of that "truth" anyway. A person of African ancestry born in the U.S. who wishes to identify themselves as African-American is as correct as if he or she simply wanted to be known as American. Same with Irish-Americans or Serbian-Americans or what have you. There are political and geographic issues at stake, and not simply racial ones.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

No, it doesn't have to do with what the "truth" is. And you're not qualified to be the arbiter of that "truth" anyway. A person of African ancestry born in the U.S. who wishes to identify themselves as African-American is as correct as if he or she simply wanted to be known as American. Same with Irish-Americans or Serbian-Americans or what have you. There are political and geographic issues at stake, and not simply racial ones.

It has everything to do with what the truth is. The person is not African if he/she is born in America. Thats just the way it is. In fact, you just proved my whole point, "A person of African ancestry born in the U.S. who wishes to identify themselves as African-American is as correct as if he or she simply wanted to be known as American". Ok, I wish to identify myself as Chinese - I am a Chinese-American. Umm, doesn't that just sound silly? You see, just because someone "wishes" to identify themselves as something doesn't make it a fact, therefore the truth.

[NoMyths]

Nor do they call themselves simply "African". The hypenate implies a relationship between the two words, not the absence of either. In your example, unless you have Chinese ancestry and were born in America, while you might refer to yourself as Chinese-American there is little relationship to the ancestral truth. If you do have that ancestry, you may, and you'd be being specific. Look, nobody has a choice on what patch of the globe they're born, and if they want to honor other geographic ancestry than the one luck has deposited them into, there's little reason why they shouldn't be able to. You might as well argue that a person has no right to change his or her name.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

Look, nobody has a choice on what patch of the globe they're born, and if they want to honor other geographic ancestry than the one luck has deposited them into, there's little reason why they shouldn't be able to. You might as well argue that a person has no right to change his or her name.

Oh, I understand that. But again, I have not and will not call them African-American. I may change this attitude towards that when they refer to me as Serbian-English-American and not as "white". I wonder when a "white" person will finally cry racism in a wrokplace for being refered to as "white" and not his geographical roots. Oh wait, a "white" person would have nothing to stand on because the system in this country doesn't work that way.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by maximus

Oh, I understand that. But again, I have not and will not call them African-American. I may change this attitude towards that when they refer to me as Serbian-English-American and not as "white". I wonder when a "white" person will finally cry racism in a wrokplace for being refered to as "white" and not his geographical roots. Oh wait, a "white" person would have nothing to stand on because the system in this country doesn't work that way.

But you're still (willfully) missing the point: if your ancestry is Serbian-English, and you want people to refer to your racial background in that way, let them know that's what you would like. People who respect such matters (unlike, um, the position you're perpetrating) will do so.

Part of the problem is that you're boiling it down into the racist argument -- that "white" actually has some useful defining characteristic. It doesn't, any more than "black" does. In my experience, it depends on the context in which "black" is used for it to become a pejorative term. But truthfully -- since that's what you indicate you'd like to get to -- there's almost no such thing as a "white" person, and absolutely no way to prove if anyone actually is such a creature.

Me, I'm an American. White? Not exactly, although I'd certainly be called white by anyone who met me. But I have no problem referring to folks by whatever term they wish, within reason.

[Pumpy Tudors]

Originally Posted by maximus

Oh, I understand that. But again, I have not and will not call them African-American. I may change this attitude towards that when they refer to me as Serbian-English-American and not as "white". I wonder when a "white" person will finally cry racism in a wrokplace for being refered to as "white" and not his geographical roots. Oh wait, a "white" person would have nothing to stand on because the system in this country doesn't work that way.

Do you want to be called Serbian-English-American? Listen, you can call people anything you want to, but it sounds like you don't want any black people to call themselves African-American. As for everything you've said above after the "Serbian-English-American" part, that seems like an unnecessary shot in this discussion. Again, if we want to talk about the accuracy and definition of the term "African-American", that's fine, but now you're projecting that issue onto how it affects what you're called. I'm sure that there's a path that connects those two things, but we haven't even stepped on it yet, much less gone all the way over it.

So before I try to take this any further, what would you like to be called?

[Suicane75]

I would like to be called Betty.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I would like to be called Betty.

Nicknames are easy, but you'll need to file appropriate paperwork to officially enact your will.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by NoMyths

But you're still (willfully) missing the point: if your ancestry is Serbian-English, and you want people to refer to your racial background in that way, let them know that's what you would like. People who respect such matters (unlike, um, the position you're perpetrating) will do so.

Part of the problem is that you're boiling it down into the racist argument -- that "white" actually has some useful defining characteristic. It doesn't, any more than "black" does. In my experience, it depends on the context in which "black" is used for it to become a pejorative term. But truthfully -- since that's what you indicate you'd like to get to -- there's almost no such thing as a "white" person, and absolutely no way to prove if anyone actually is such a creature.

Me, I'm an American. White? Not exactly, although I'd certainly be called white by anyone who met me. But I have no problem referring to folks by whatever term they wish, within reason.

NoMyths, I think my problem is that I see these things such as the BET channel *just* for example. People call this a celabration of ethnic cultures. Really? If there was a WET (W=White) channel then man, the minorities would call that a racist move by all white folk. If we had a month called "White History Month" we would be deemed racist yet again. Do I think white people should have these things? No, not at all. But if we did have such things "celebrating" us being white then all hell would break loose. I advocate zero segregation where there are no months or channels dedicated to ones race. To me, thats just pathetic that it is like this. I understand that I can't change the world but I choose not to be apart of the segregation set by "what I belive" some black people have presented. It's funny because there are black people who actually agree with me.

[Pumpy Tudors]

I am thoroughly convinced that there is nothing more I can say here.

[Suicane75]

Originally Posted by maximus

It's funny because there are black people who actually agree with me.

Funny ha ha?

[maximus]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

Do you want to be called Serbian-English-American? Listen, you can call people anything you want to, but it sounds like you don't want any black people to call themselves African-American. As for everything you've said above after the "Serbian-English-American" part, that seems like an unnecessary shot in this discussion. Again, if we want to talk about the accuracy and definition of the term "African-American", that's fine, but now you're projecting that issue onto how it affects what you're called. I'm sure that there's a path that connects those two things, but we haven't even stepped on it yet, much less gone all the way over it.

So before I try to take this any further, what would you like to be called?

I am an American, thats it. I am, however, very proud of my roots but I would never expect to be called anything but American.

Pumpy, would you agree that about 50% or more of the black population would expect some type of payment (or tax free living) for past slavery? What about the kings in the African countries who sold the black people into slavery. Should those same African countries also pay the "African-American" people some type of payment for the slavery?

[maximus]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I am thoroughly convinced that there is nothing more I can say here.

Yeah, I think I am done on this subject myself.

[timmynausea]

Minority cultures are celebrated because they are not necessarily part of the mainstream culture. If you want a White Entertainment Channel check out TNN or Spike TV or Superstation or etc.

[NoMyths]

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors

I am thoroughly convinced that there is nothing more I can say here.

I find your idea intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Neon_Chaos]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I would like to be called Betty.

Birdie. Birdie. Birdie. Hmmmm.... Tiger. Tiger. Tiger. Red Shirt! BLUE SHIRT! Red Shirt! BLUE SHIRT!

(if I'm right. )

[Klinglerware]

Maximus, I don't understand how BET has anything to do with self segregation. It is all about business and all about catering to unmet demand. Many minority people believe that network TV doesn't produce enough television that has relevance to them--this seems plausible since TV is usually produced to appeal to mass, not targeted audiences.

Whether black people are justified in feeling this way in your eyes, this being America, it is still their prerogative. It was also the prerogative of the businessman (Robert Johnson, I believe), to recognize that a perceived need (entertainment that would appeal to black people) that was not already met. So he founded BET and made a hell of a lot of money and God bless America, money (and again, getting shut out of the mainstream) not a sense of racist priide is what drove BET. To recap:

1. Black people want entertainment that's relevant to them, and that's their prerogative
2. Network TV won't produce that enternmaint, and that's their prerogative
3. Someone else (Robert Johnson) offers to provide a service to provide #1, and the marketplace rewards him

That sounds like capitalism to me, not racial pride...

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by maximus

I advocate zero segregation where there are no months or channels dedicated to ones race.

DOLA--

Would you extend this to religious belief? People's religious identification is just as important to people (if not more) than their ethnic identification. To extend your logic, we would have to get rid of Christmas and Hannukah since only certain segments of the population celebrate each holiday. Perhaps we could replace those holidays with a generic "Winter Solstice" holiday, or we could just celebrate New Year's instead, just like the Soviets did...

[HomerJSimpson]

You know, the Nazis had pieces of flair that they made the Jews wear

[Blackadar]

Actually, I tend to agree with Maximus. I don't like - and have stopped - calling blacks African-American. I think the term is technically incorrect and generally unnecessary. Given evolution, we could all call ourselves African-American.

[Flasch186]

What, you think Im a clown, funny? Do I amuse you?

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by Klinglerware

DOLA--

Would you extend this to religious belief? People's religious identification is just as important to people (if not more) than their ethnic identification. To extend your logic, we would have to get rid of Christmas and Hannukah since only certain segments of the population celebrate each holiday. Perhaps we could replace those holidays with a generic "Winter Solstice" holiday, or we could just celebrate New Year's instead, just like the Soviets did...

I think religion is different because it does not take away from the fact that you are, an American and only an American if you were born in America. Also, people don't ask to be called Catholic-Americans, Lutheran-Americans, Baptist-Americans, etc...

I would like to state that even though I see where Maximus is coming from and agree with him that if you were born in America you are an American, I would never refuse to refer to someone as African American if that was their wish.

As for the Greek Week issue, yes - all the minority fraternities and sororities were invited. It was my experience that their celebration was very similar to ours - a pagent of some sort, a lot of parties, etc.

These exclusionary practices probably led to the formation of "Black" fraternities in the first place. It is easily conceivable that seperate greek weeks are probably a lasting effect of the earlier discrimination. There probably isn't very much animosity between the "black" and "white" greek systems today, but the celebrations have long since evolved separately (i.e., they do different shit), so people don't seem to see a need to change things.

You may be right in why it started this way, but again - my initial point was this - now that you are being asked to be included, why not participate in the "official, school recognized" Greek Week event? Why continue to separate yourselves as a group? I think the attitude of "this is how it's always been done so why change it" is horrible. If we as a country don't change things, we will never grow and racism will continue to divide us on some level, as it does now. I think that now, years after the Civil Rights Movement, and after years of being asked to participate, it's time to be a part of "Greek Week" and forget about "Black Greek Week". Why is there still a need to be separate?

[cuervo72]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I would like to be called Betty.

Betty, you can call me Al.

[st.cronin]

I've never been convinced of the benefits of celebrating one's racial/ethnic identity. For one thing, racial/ethnic identities have no real meaning. What is Irish in one generation is Icelandic in the next; a Korean most likely has Chinese ancestry; etc.

I advocate the celebration of culture, not ethnicity. I will happily discuss this with an interested party when the topic comes up.

But if somebody objects to being described as 'black' or 'african-american' or 'american' or 'native american' ... common courtesty suggests I respect their wishes, even while cheerfully engaging them on the specific philosophy behind their desire.

[Klinglerware]

Originally Posted by oliegirl

I would like to state that even though I see where Maximus is coming from and agree with him that if you were born in America you are an American

I see your and Maximus' point, too. I agree that if you are born in America, you are an American. However you are naive to believe that all people see our minorities this way. As Maximus' freudian slip suggests, when people picture an "American" they most likely will picture a white person, not the Benetton ad that Maximum suggests.

For example, if you met a guy with Asian physical features on a city street somewhere in America, and ask him where he's from and he says "Connecticut", I'll bet that there will be quite a few people who wouldn't expect that answer and will continue by asking "No seriously, where are you really from?"

I really do wish that people wouldn't be so hung up on race, either. But we have a long way to go and it really pissed me off that there are a lot of people in our country, whose families may have been here for generations, that are still having a hard time convincing people that they are real Americans. Some people will never be American enough in some peoples' eyes, and that pisses me off.

Originally Posted by oliegirl

why not participate in the "official, school recognized" Greek Week event?

And be tools of the administration?

[Jesse_Ewiak]

All of you do realize the major reason that there are 'historically black' colleges, almost all black churches, and other things such as that is because for a large portion of American history, the vast majority of minorities couldn't get accepted into the 'normal' school or church system. Try being African-American in 1920 and showing up at the local Methodist/Baptist whatever church and see what happens in a large portion of the country.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Suicane75

I would like to be called Betty.

And you can call me Al.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

And you can call me Al.

Thanks to you guys I had that song stuck in my head the entire 2 1/2 hours I was out at the pool!!!