Most Underrated Players - Page 2

Lathum · 06-21-2005, 09:55 PM

joe Carter wasn't even the best player on his team. Take away one big homerun and Joe Carter is a nobody.

Captain2711 · 06-21-2005, 09:59 PM

except for his 396 hrs and 1400+ rbi's

Draft Dodger · 06-21-2005, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain2711

Joe Carter overrated??? Are you kidding me? The man drove in 100 runs in 10 of 12 years (incl. a 98 rbi campaign) while averaging 27 hrs a year before the major raise in hrs in the late 90's. Oh yeah, he also was the leader of a team that won 3 cons. division titles and 2 cons. world series. He never struck out more than 113 times in a year and avg. 17 sb's.

not a Carter hater, but he also only cracked .275 once in his career.

Captain2711 · 06-21-2005, 10:04 PM

I know Carter had his average problems which is why he is not a HOF'er, but averaging 27hrs and 107 rbi's for his career is worthy of being in the class of being underrated. If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

Lathum · 06-21-2005, 10:08 PM

Cecil Fielder is pretty close

Draft Dodger · 06-21-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain2711

If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

well, I already gave you one...

(I get your point though)

Lathum · 06-21-2005, 10:09 PM

Funny, he is also another over rated blue jay

Lathum · 06-21-2005, 10:10 PM

Quote:

If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

Pete Rose

Captain2711 · 06-21-2005, 10:15 PM

Pete Rose? Did you actually look at his stats? He had 150 rbi's less than carter and played 10 more years. I guess your knowledge of stats is like your poker game...weak.

Draft Dodger · 06-21-2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain2711

I know Carter had his average problems which is why he is not a HOF'er, but averaging 27hrs and 107 rbi's for his career is worthy of being in the class of being underrated. If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

also
Andres Galarraga (another good underrated choice) and Palmeiro (might get in to the Hall though) both averaged over 100. so did Canseco (waaay overrated), Juan Gonzalez (underrated), McGwire (Hall status up in the air, mostly overrated), as well as the previously mentioned Jim Rice. Dave Parker, Harold Baines (guh), Andre Dawson, Ted Simmons and Chili Davis all averaged 90+

Draft Dodger · 06-21-2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain2711

Pete Rose? Did you actually look at his stats? He had 150 rbi's less than carter and played 10 more years. I guess your knowledge of stats is like your poker game...weak.

Rose is, however, a very underrated gambler.

mckerney · 06-21-2005, 10:28 PM

Bert Blyleven easily qualifies.

Another who should be in the hall but isn't is Jim Marshall

Captain2711 · 06-21-2005, 10:28 PM

I love the Jim Rice comparison to Joe Carter. Perfect match. Identical 16 year careers except for Rice's superior avg.

oykib · 06-21-2005, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain2711

Joe Carter overrated??? Are you kidding me? The man drove in 100 runs in 10 of 12 years (incl. a 98 rbi campaign) while averaging 27 hrs a year before the major raise in hrs in the late 90's. Oh yeah, he also was the leader of a team that won 3 cons. division titles and 2 cons. world series. He never struck out more than 113 times in a year and avg. 17 sb's.

Code:

Special Batting   Glossary

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  PA  Outs  RC  RC/27  OWP    BA *lgBA   OBP *lgOBP  SLG *lgSLG  OPS *lgOPS*OPS+ psOPS  SB% 
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
 1983 23 CHC NL   52   44    2  1.23      | .176  .269| .176  .338| .235  .399| .412  .737|  11       100%
 1984 24 CLE AL  257  184   35  5.14      | .275  .266| .307  .329| .467  .401| .775  .730| 110        33%
 1985 25 CLE AL  523  383   60  4.23      | .262  .260| .298  .326| .409  .404| .707  .730|  93        80%
 1986 26 CLE AL  709  487  114  6.32      | .302  .259| .335  .327| .514  .404| .849  .731| 130        80%
 1987 27 CLE AL  629  452   83  4.96      | .264  .266| .304  .335| .480  .427| .784  .762| 103        83%
 1988 28 CLE AL  670  471   92  5.27      | .271  .263| .314  .328| .478  .396| .792  .724| 116        84%
 1989 29 CLE AL  705  511   87  4.60      | .243  .263| .292  .328| .465  .387| .757  .715| 109        72%
 1990 30 SDP NL  697  513   71  3.74      | .232  .266| .290  .332| .391  .399| .681  .731|  85        78%
 1991 31 TOR AL  706  488  104  5.75      | .273  .265| .330  .334| .503  .402| .833  .736| 124        69%
 1992 32 TOR AL  683  491   94  5.17      | .264  .265| .309  .335| .498  .393| .808  .728| 119        70%
 1993 33 TOR AL  669  473   91  5.19      | .254  .269| .312  .340| .489  .411| .802  .751| 111        72%
 1994 34 TOR AL  483  336   74  5.95      | .271  .273| .317  .345| .524  .434| .841  .779| 113       100%
 1995 35 TOR AL  603  434   71  4.42      | .253  .270| .300  .344| .428  .427| .728  .771|  88        92%
 1996 36 TOR AL  682  491   90  4.95      | .253  .284| .306  .358| .475  .456| .782  .815|  90        53%
 1997 37 TOR AL  668  492   68  3.73      | .234  .272| .284  .342| .399  .431| .683  .773|  76        80%
 1998 38 BAL AL  303  221   35  4.28      | .247  .269| .297  .338| .424  .429| .721  .766|  87        75%
         SFG NL  115   80   20  6.75      | .295  .264| .322  .334| .562  .417| .884  .751| 131       100%
         TOT     418  301   55  4.93      | .260  .268| .304  .337| .461  .425| .765  .762|  99        80%
+--------------+----+----+----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----+-----+----+
 16 Seasons     9154 6551 1191  4.91      | .259  .267| .306  .336| .464  .413| .771  .749| 104        77%

That OPS+ tells the whole story. That relates the player's OPS to the league-wide average. It's park-adjusted and, by defenition- league and era-adjusted.

That 104 is barely above average. That includes catchers' and middle infielders' OPSs. The RBI are a product of always batting 3-5 on teams that usually had good table setters.

His OBP was not good. Which means that he used up a lot of outs to get those RBIs. His .464 SLG was good, but certainly not elite. He was never considered a great or even very good fielder, either.

st.cronin · 06-21-2005, 10:53 PM

Everybody either wants to rip on Carter for his obp or else they want him in the Hall of Fame. He was a good player, a few notches below Dale Murphy. He was a good defensive outfielder (played quite a bit of center when he was young), a good baserunner (was an early pioneer in the 30-30 club), extremely durable (an underrated skill), and a decent hitter. He's both under- and over- rated.

Warhammer · 06-22-2005, 09:00 AM

For NHL I gotta agree with Tiki...

NFL I need to change my vote to Dave Kreig, he was a stud. Just don't ask him to not fumble.

MLB - He may still be playing, but I don't think Jim Edmonds is going to make the Hall and that is a shame!

Blackadar · 06-22-2005, 10:16 AM

Ricky Jackson and Brian Sipe are good calls. It's hard to believe that Sipe only made the Pro Bowl once. Jackson was a 6 time Pro Bowler. He may have a chance at the HoF.

Dave Krieg? Well, he made the Pro Bowl 3 times in his career, so he didn't suck. His career standing are awesome: Pass attempts: 10th, Completions: 10, Passing yards: 11 and Passing TDs: 9. However, I never thought of him as a winner - probably because his postseason starting record was 2-6. I would have rather had Jim Zorn, who played on some truly dreadful Seattle teams.

As for Joe Carter - who played in a higher-scoring era for much of his career than Jim Rice - I'd also say he was overrated. They make for a great comparison. Neither could be considered a great fielder and they played the same positions (OF, 1B, DH).

Joe's big years were from 1985-1995. Rice's big years were 1975-1985.

Jim Rice: .298 BA, 382 HRs, .502 Slugging, .352 OBP, 1451 RBIs, 1249 Runs.

Joe Carter: .259 BA, 296 HRs, .464 Slugging, .306 OBP, 1445 RBIs, 1170 Runs.

Carter did have more SBs than Rice (175 more or so).

Rice is clearly superior in raw numbers. The discrepancy is even more pronounced when compared to their contempories. Carter finished in the top 10 in slugging only 3 times. Rice did it 8 times. RBIs are Carter's biggest claim to fame, but both he and Rice finished in the top 10 nine times. Homers? 7 Each, but Rice finished #1 three times. Carter finished in the top 3 only once.

Verdict: Carter isn't underrated.

06-21-2005, 09:59 PM	#52
Captain2711 High School JV Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Jersey	except for his 396 hrs and 1400+ rbi's

06-21-2005, 10:04 PM	#54
Captain2711 High School JV Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Jersey	I know Carter had his average problems which is why he is not a HOF'er, but averaging 27hrs and 107 rbi's for his career is worthy of being in the class of being underrated. If anyone has the list of players not in the HOF who averaged 100 rbi's for a career of more than 10 years, I'd love to see it.

06-21-2005, 10:08 PM	#55
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Cecil Fielder is pretty close

06-21-2005, 10:09 PM	#57
Lathum Favored Bitch #1 Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: homeless in NJ	Funny, he is also another over rated blue jay

06-21-2005, 10:15 PM	#59
Captain2711 High School JV Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Jersey	Pete Rose? Did you actually look at his stats? He had 150 rbi's less than carter and played 10 more years. I guess your knowledge of stats is like your poker game...weak.

06-21-2005, 10:28 PM	#62
mckerney Coordinator Join Date: Oct 2000	Bert Blyleven easily qualifies. Another who should be in the hall but isn't is Jim Marshall

06-21-2005, 10:53 PM	#65
st.cronin General Manager Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: New Mexico	Everybody either wants to rip on Carter for his obp or else they want him in the Hall of Fame. He was a good player, a few notches below Dale Murphy. He was a good defensive outfielder (played quite a bit of center when he was young), a good baserunner (was an early pioneer in the 30-30 club), extremely durable (an underrated skill), and a decent hitter. He's both under- and over- rated.

06-22-2005, 09:00 AM	#66
Warhammer Pro Starter Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Dayton, OH	For NHL I gotta agree with Tiki... NFL I need to change my vote to Dave Kreig, he was a stud. Just don't ask him to not fumble. MLB - He may still be playing, but I don't think Jim Edmonds is going to make the Hall and that is a shame!

06-22-2005, 10:16 AM	#67
Blackadar Retired Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Fantasyland	Ricky Jackson and Brian Sipe are good calls. It's hard to believe that Sipe only made the Pro Bowl once. Jackson was a 6 time Pro Bowler. He may have a chance at the HoF. Dave Krieg? Well, he made the Pro Bowl 3 times in his career, so he didn't suck. His career standing are awesome: Pass attempts: 10th, Completions: 10, Passing yards: 11 and Passing TDs: 9. However, I never thought of him as a winner - probably because his postseason starting record was 2-6. I would have rather had Jim Zorn, who played on some truly dreadful Seattle teams. As for Joe Carter - who played in a higher-scoring era for much of his career than Jim Rice - I'd also say he was overrated. They make for a great comparison. Neither could be considered a great fielder and they played the same positions (OF, 1B, DH). Joe's big years were from 1985-1995. Rice's big years were 1975-1985. Jim Rice: .298 BA, 382 HRs, .502 Slugging, .352 OBP, 1451 RBIs, 1249 Runs. Joe Carter: .259 BA, 296 HRs, .464 Slugging, .306 OBP, 1445 RBIs, 1170 Runs. Carter did have more SBs than Rice (175 more or so). Rice is clearly superior in raw numbers. The discrepancy is even more pronounced when compared to their contempories. Carter finished in the top 10 in slugging only 3 times. Rice did it 8 times. RBIs are Carter's biggest claim to fame, but both he and Rice finished in the top 10 nine times. Homers? 7 Each, but Rice finished #1 three times. Carter finished in the top 3 only once. Verdict: Carter isn't underrated.

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