Funny Video (site NSFW, video is)

[heybrad]

Originally Posted by John Galt

For example, he should never have allowed to her to walk around freely. That is almost rule number 1 in traffic stops.

What video are you watching? I just watched it and she was in her car the entire time until he tazed her.

[MJ4H]

Originally Posted by heybrad

What video are you watching? I just watched it and she was in her car the entire time until he tazed her.

Yeah I was wondering where he came up with the wandering around outside of the vehicle bit, too. Didn't want to watch the video again, really, but I certainly never saw her wandering around outside the vehicle. I saw her planted in that vehicle and refusing to come out until she fell out.

EDIT: Hey, Brad.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by John Galt

For example, he should never have allowed to her to walk around freely.

You've said this twice now. When does she ever get out and walk around? She opens the door right after she gets pulled over, but she never got out and the cop told her right away to close the door.

Edit: Hey Brad, Hey Matt.

Originally Posted by John Galt

Also, playing games about his "unit number" seemed to be just designed to piss her off. And then to be on the radio talking about her so she could hear really freaked her out. All of that created a very tense environment.

How as he "playing games"? She asked him, he didn't understand what she wanted, and then he told her that he would be there in court. He told her his last name...why did she need anything else?

And he backed away from her vehicle every time he talked on the radio. He wasn't talking overly loud into the radio. And when he said something about her having an attitude, it was to his partner, not into the radio.

Personally, I don't find this video funny. But I don't think that the officer did anything wrong. Plain and simple, when a cop tells you to do something, just freakin' do it.

[Ksyrup]

Excuses, guys, these are nothing but excuses. And while I won't call the walking around thing a fabrication, I think it does go to JG's state of mind about these scenarios in general that he probably remembered it that way.

[BrianD]

The only thing that may have been wrong with the officer's actions was the second taser. He ordered her to roll onto her belly and she said she couldn't. After getting hit with a taser, it is possible that she really couldn't roll over. There is no reason that one of the cops couldn't have rolled her over. This seemed to be a bit much.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

Well, my thoughts are any outrage directed at Policemen who use tasers should probably directed to your friends, neighbors, or anyone else you see at a party that drinks and drives.

Although this is apples and oranges, both kinds of death are preventable. Also, if there is a case where a person did not warrant a reason to get tazed, please cite it. I'm getting hungry because it's lunchtime so I'm thinking normally, but I guess what I'm saying is that the people who got zapped got zapped for a reason.

I didn't know we had a limited amount of "outrage" and if we use it up on excessive tazing, we can't also be outraged at drunk driving. Who knew?

And as exhibit one where I would say someone shouldn't get tazed, I say look at this case. And I've read of many other cases (and have worked on a couple so I can't talk about those). Tazers shouldn't be used unless serious violence is likely to result without their use. And cops need to better at de-escalating situations.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by heybrad

What video are you watching? I just watched it and she was in her car the entire time until he tazed her.

As I said, it was from memory, but I thought I remembered her walking around outside the car. Maybe that was someone else. I'll have to see again when I'm home.

[MJ4H]

Yeah there was someone else that walked by a couple of times. Much heavier set, obviously a different woman. This lady was in her vehicle the whole time.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

You've said this twice now. When does she ever get out and walk around? She opens the door right after she gets pulled over, but she never got out and the cop told her right away to close the door.

Edit: Hey Brad, Hey Matt.



How as he "playing games"? She asked him, he didn't understand what she wanted, and then he told her that he would be there in court. He told her his last name...why did she need anything else?

And he backed away from her vehicle every time he talked on the radio. He wasn't talking overly loud into the radio. And when he said something about her having an attitude, it was to his partner, not into the radio.

Personally, I don't find this video funny. But I don't think that the officer did anything wrong. Plain and simple, when a cop tells you to do something, just freakin' do it.

As I said, from memory.

And, the cop was clearly playing games. They are legally obligated to give their badge number and precint when asked (not just reassure her that he will show up) - at least in the jurisdictions I'm familiar with. Cops need to be held accountable and identification is a small means to do that.

He was clearly talking too loud on the radio because she was responding to his comments. He could have handled that without further inflaming her. And talking to his partner too loud is the same problem. Again, from memory, I don't know who he was talking to.

I'm just saying that this cop didn't seem to show any interest in de-escalating the situation. I've seen numerous cop cams where the situation is handled well and the cop is trying to prevent an incident. To me, this cop was looking to teach this lady a lesson. And that is not what cops should be doing, IMO.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by John Galt

And cops need to better at de-escalating situations.

This situation was de-escalated quite quickly.

I mean seriously, John, this was solely her fault. She turned a routine traffic stop (and then arrest) into a situation that the plice were forced to "handle." The tazer doesn't even enter the question if she just follows directions. End of story! I don'tsee anything that says a tazer is for violent situations - thjat's what guns are for. What's next? Are you going to complain that they hurt her wrists by putting handcuffs on her? Those should only be for people who are still actively resisting? Where do you draw the line?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by MattJones4Heisman

Yeah there was someone else that walked by a couple of times. Much heavier set, obviously a different woman. This lady was in her vehicle the whole time.

That may be it, then. I can't say why I thought that. It seems weird though that anyone was walking by. Cops usually try to control the scene to prevent any outsider influence as well.

[Dutch]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I don't see any other way to have resolved the situation that wouldn't have put the cops in an increased risk of harm, or that wouldn't have potentially resulted in an increased risk of harm to her. What should they have done? Yanked her out? Pepper sprayed her? What physical act should they have done? And I don't want to hear any solution that would have allowed her to do what SHE wanted or somehow allowed her to dictate the terms of her arrest, because that's completely unacceptable.

I concur with Blacky. Well said.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

This situation was de-escalated quite quickly.

I mean seriously, John, this was solely her fault. She turned a routine traffic stop (and then arrest) into a situation that the plice were forced to "handle." The tazer doesn't even enter the question if she just follows directions. End of story! I don'tsee anything that says a tazer is for violent situations - thjat's what guns are for. What's next? Are you going to complain that they hurt her wrists by putting handcuffs on her? Those should only be for people who are still actively resisting? Where do you draw the line?

I'll watch it again, but I've watched tons of cop video and rarely have I seen such a poor attempt at controlling a situation. The cop had many avenues to talk reasonably, but seemed intent on shouting and freaking out a woman that was obviously on edge. That is usually not a good strategy.

I've never said this woman wasn't in the wrong, I just believe the cop was in the wrong too (ala Rodney King). If you watch cop videos, you see much more professional, effective cops than this one. This guy just had issues.

As I said earlier, my line is that tazers risk death so they should not be used that easily. Injuries are one thing - death is permanent. And quit making bad slippery slope arguments that I'm clearly not defending.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by Dutch

I concur with Blacky. Well said.

I'll be sure to let him know.

[Calis]

It's not funny.

I felt like tazing her by the end of the video myself, so I can't really fault the officer.

I actually saw them talking about this on CNN last week, but they only showed the part where she was tasered(go figure). Was quite an outrage, and I giggled to because the police-backer there argued the reason that she was tazed is because cell phones can be modified into single shot guns.

Weird situation, but I have a real hard time feeling any sympathy for the woman.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Excuses, guys, these are nothing but excuses. And while I won't call the walking around thing a fabrication, I think it does go to JG's state of mind about these scenarios in general that he probably remembered it that way.

And what exactly is that supposed to mean? My "state of mind?"

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I'll watch it again, but I've watched tons of cop video and rarely have I seen such a poor attempt at controlling a situation. The cop had many avenues to talk reasonably, but seemed intent on shouting and freaking out a woman that was obviously on edge. That is usually not a good strategy.

I've never said this woman wasn't in the wrong, I just believe the cop was in the wrong too (ala Rodney King). If you watch cop videos, you see much more professional, effective cops than this one. This guy just had issues.

As I said earlier, my line is that tazers risk death so they should not be used that easily. Injuries are one thing - death is permanent. And quit making bad slippery slope arguments that I'm clearly not defending.

You really need to watch the video again. The cop never raised his voice until she refused to get out of the car.

As for tazers...physically dragging someone out of the car is likely much riskier of injury/death. Even if it is somehow slightly riskier to the suspect (and I doubt this), it is FAR less risky to the officer - making the overall use safer than a physical altercation.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by John Galt

And what exactly is that supposed to mean? My "state of mind?"

That you're so biased on things like this that you can't even remember the details of the video correctly. That even your memory gets clouded/corrupted by your ideology.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I'll watch it again, but I've watched tons of cop video and rarely have I seen such a poor attempt at controlling a situation. The cop had many avenues to talk reasonably, but seemed intent on shouting and freaking out a woman that was obviously on edge. That is usually not a good strategy.

I don't remember the officer shouting until after he had told her several times to put down the phone and get out of the vehicle...near the end of the entire situation.

Edit: And beaten to a point again.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

You really need to watch the video again. The cop never raised his voice until she refused to get out of the car.

As for tazers...physically dragging someone out of the car is likely much riskier of injury/death. Even if it is somehow slightly riskier to the suspect (and I doubt this), it is FAR less risky to the officer - making the overall use safer than a physical altercation.

As I said, I'll watch it again this evening.

However, physical holds and bars are definitely not nearly as likely to cause death. Cops have great success using different restraining techniques (especially after most chokeholds were abandoned). Tazers, on the hand, always carry a risk of death. And it is hard to predict who will die (it isn't just the infirm).

And is anyone really defending the second tazer? I notice the apologists seem to gloss over that one. I think the second tazer says a lot about the cop's state of mind.

[JeeberD]

Dola-

Being a cop is such a thankless job. You don't think this cop hears people every day talking about how the police are always harassing them and other crap like that? I don't know if I could have stayed as calm as long as Officer McNevin did...

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by John Galt

And is anyone really defending the second tazer? I notice the apologists seem to gloss over that one. I think the second tazer says a lot about the cop's state of mind.

I didn't gloss over that one. I would still defend the first one, but the second one seemed like it was done out of anger...though we can't see what is going on at that point.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

That you're so biased on things like this that you can't even remember the details of the video correctly. That even your memory gets clouded/corrupted by your ideology.

Fuck you too!

Seriously, Blackie. As someone said earlier in this thread, there was someone walking around (which is unusual). I watched it before going to work and didn't remember all the details. I MADE THAT VERY CLEAR WHEN I POSTED AND SAID I WOULD WATCH IT AGAIN.

As for my ideology, you have no fuckin' clue. I've worked a lot with cops and victims of brutality and in my current job I see both sides of the issue regularly. But thanks for being a total ass.

It's funny. I just posted a thread about apologizing that I mentioned the personal attacks on me lately. What is it with people lately? Why is my integrity such a hot topic? When I have EVER done something on this board to make people question my integrity? It is truly bizarre to me. I have many character flaws, but honesty and intellectual honesty are perhaps my greatest strengths. I'm brutally honest with myself to the point of constant self doubt. Yet, tons of people here seem to think I'm entirely dishonest. And I take that personally.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Dola-

Being a cop is such a thankless job. You don't think this cop hears people every day talking about how the police are always harassing them and other crap like that? I don't know if I could have stayed as calm as long as Officer McNevin did...

This is exactly why if I ever get pulled over, the interior lights of the car are going on, the radio is being turned off and there will be a whole lot of polite going on. Nothing can be gained by being an ass, and you never know just how close to the edge a cop is.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by John Galt

And what exactly is that supposed to mean? My "state of mind?"

Let me just put it this way - when I saw this thread, yours was the first name I expected to see defending this lady and criticizing the police. Actually, when I saw this thread over at another board several days before this thread appeared here, you were the first person I thought of as someone who would take the position you are taking now. This seems right in line with how I would expect you to respond to an issue like this - that you would automatically criticize the police and look for anything that would justify taking this lady's side. And recalling something that didn't happen but would support your position is indicative of that.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by JeeberD

Dola-

Being a cop is such a thankless job. You don't think this cop hears people every day talking about how the police are always harassing them and other crap like that? I don't know if I could have stayed as calm as long as Officer McNevin did...

And that is my point. Cops do deal with this EVERYDAY. And it is thankless. And that is why "good" cops develop thick skins and deal with the situations much better. Cops need to have a tolerance well above "normal" levels in order to be effective. I think cops like McNevin give "good" cops a bad name and that is sad.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Let me just put it this way - when I saw this thread, yours was the first name I expected to see defending this lady and criticizing the police. Actually, when I saw this thread over at another board several days before this thread appeared here, you were the first person I thought of as someone who would take the position you are taking now. This seems right in line with how I would expect you to respond to an issue like this - that you would automatically criticize the police and look for anything that would justify taking this lady's side. And recalling something that didn't happen but would support your position is indicative of that.

Again, I DID NOT DEFEND THIS LADY. I said the cop did not follow proper procedure (and I think the procedures regarding tazers should be changed). I did attack the cop, because based upon my experience working on brutality issues, this cop acted with poor judgment. He almost certainly would receive qualified immunity for acting properly on the first taser (but that is a problem with the way immunity is applied), but the second taser may be a jury question.

Either way, I find both parties to be seriously at fault, but the use of a taser, and its risk of death, seemed excessive to me.

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Fuck you too!

Seriously, Blackie. As someone said earlier in this thread, there was someone walking around (which is unusual). I watched it before going to work and didn't remember all the details. I MADE THAT VERY CLEAR WHEN I POSTED AND SAID I WOULD WATCH IT AGAIN.

As for my ideology, you have no fuckin' clue. I've worked a lot with cops and victims of brutality and in my current job I see both sides of the issue regularly. But thanks for being a total ass.

It's funny. I just posted a thread about apologizing that I mentioned the personal attacks on me lately. What is it with people lately? Why is my integrity such a hot topic? When I have EVER done something on this board to make people question my integrity? It is truly bizarre to me. I have many character flaws, but honesty and intellectual honesty are perhaps my greatest strengths. I'm brutally honest with myself to the point of constant self doubt. Yet, tons of people here seem to think I'm entirely dishonest. And I take that personally.

You're welcome. You asked what Ksyrup meant and I just gave you my impression of what he meant. Always glad to be of service.

I don't think you're dishonest. We're all "victims of our experiences" and we all look at the world differently. But I believe the "angle" at which you view things is the polar opposite of JMIG and Bubba. Which is to say, that's a pretty steep angle...

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by John Galt

As for my ideology, you have no fuckin' clue.

I think you see yourself as more of a free thinker, impervious to ideological constraints, than you appear to some of us to actually be.

I didn't intend for my comments to be a shot at you, it was just an honest observation. And honestly, while on another board on this topic, you were the first person I thought of when I was mentally sorting people onto each side. In fact, I probably wouldn't have been able to type I would have been so stunned, had you posted something in support of the cops' actions in this case. Was that just a good guess on my part, or have I seen a pattern in your beliefs (and I'm not judging them for what they are, you're entitled to your opinion) that naturally lead me to that conclusion?

[Blackadar]

As for the 2nd tazing...I'd have to look at the video again. I thought she was on her stomach and her hands hidden at that point. Therefore, failure to comply would easily justify another ZAP. I could be wrong on this...but I don't have time to view it again right now.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by rafini

And if they let her sit in the truck long enough to pull out a gun hidden between the seats and shoot one of the cops?

Someone beat me to my post a long time before I got to this thread- but that would be my response to HJS: there's no such thing as an unarmed person- if you're a cop, you never know when someone might be wanting to take a potshot at you. I agree 100% with WSUCoug's assessment- hindsight is 20/20 and this seemed about as good as you could have handled this situation. Similiarly, in response to JG's "She was surrounded by two cops and she was clearly in fear"- phrases like clearly in fear are judgement calls- there's no such thing as "clearly in fear".

EDIT: wow- talk about being behind in the thread, I go to read a couple of other threads and suddenly my response is to stuff nearly 50 posts ago.

SI

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by John Galt

and I think the procedures regarding tazers should be changed

JG, I think this would be a more appropriate tack to take with your argument, but that's just my opinion.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I said the cop did not follow proper procedure (and I think the procedures regarding tazers should be changed).

Wait....you can't have it both ways. He followed proper procedure - even law enforcement experts have backed him up on this. If you've got a problem with tazers in general, that's a whole different issue. Criticizing him for not following "proper" procedure, then suggesting that the procedure needs to be changed, are two totally separate issues.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I think you see yourself as more of a free thinker, impervious to ideological constraints, than you appear to some of us to actually be.

I didn't intend for my comments to be a shot at you, it was just an honest observation. And honestly, while on another board on this topic, you were the first person I thought of when I was mentally sorting people onto each side. In fact, I probably wouldn't have been able to type I would have been so stunned, had you posted something in support of the cops' actions in this case. Was that just a good guess on my part, or have I seen a pattern in your beliefs (and I'm not judging them for what they are, you're entitled to your opinion) that naturally lead me to that conclusion?

No, I know you didn't intend it that way (and that is why I expressed a little more hostility to Blackie). I just was inquiring, because I thought of it as odd of you to say in your first post. I was right that someone was walking around and I was wrong that it was the woman in the car. I'm not sure my ideology had anything to do with that, but it may have. That is a question hard for anyone to answer. I do tend to doubt it, though, because I'm actually quite sympathetic to cops using force and restraint in my role as a clerk, but very unsympathetic to the use of weapons. I think weapon deployment almost always increases the risk to the cop and the perp whereas restraint almost never does.

I know many people think I am an ideologue which is a bit troubling. Normally, I'm an anti-ideologue in everything in my life. For example, I've spent numerous threads thrashing Chubby's liberal ideology, but I do know I spend more time trashing conservative beliefs. I think ideology is the source of evil in this world. And since most people really believe there are only two sides to any issue, it is hard to imagine someone being against sides. It is funny, though, when I voted for the GOP in the past, it was because I felt they were the least ideological party (and what ideology they had I didn't think would be implemented). How, I see them as the party of ideologues that scare the crap out of me.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Wait....you can't have it both ways. He followed proper procedure - even law enforcement experts have backed him up on this. If you've got a problem with tazers in general, that's a whole different issue. Criticizing him for not following "proper" procedure, then suggesting that the procedure needs to be changed, are two totally separate issues.

I should have been clearer. I don't think he followed procedure in de-escalating the situation. His talking about her in ways designed to inflame was clearly a poor choice. Most cops do that sort of talking in their vehicle.

As for the first tazer, he did follow procedure (but I think that procedure should be changed).

As for the second tazer, it is, IMO, a violation of procedure. But it is a hard call because tazer use is pretty liberally allowed.

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

Wait....you can't have it both ways. He followed proper procedure - even law enforcement experts have backed him up on this. If you've got a problem with tazers in general, that's a whole different issue. Criticizing him for not following "proper" procedure, then suggesting that the procedure needs to be changed, are two totally separate issues.

Also, law enforcement experts is a broad term. In any case, you can find experts on both sides (cop experts are usually not too open-minded). Usually, though, the actual procedure questions are totally different than either "expert" says after a court has looked at the issue. I think police brutality is one area where "hired gun" experts really provide no help to a court.

[Ksyrup]

Originally Posted by John Galt

No, I know you didn't intend it that way

I'm relieved you feel that way. Saved me from having to apologize.

[oliegirl]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I can't watch the video again now that I'm at work. But I remember many times along the way where the cop seemed to be using inconsistent control. For example, he should never have allowed to her to walk around freely. That is almost rule number 1 in traffic stops. Also, playing games about his "unit number" seemed to be just designed to piss her off. And then to be on the radio talking about her so she could hear really freaked her out. All of that created a very tense environment.

And then, once he pulled the tazer, he continued to shout her down. She was not given 3 or 4 minutes there. She was given a few seconds and like her, I would have been totally freaking out. With someone pointing a gun at me (which I don't know if she realized it was a tazer) and shouting over me, I'd need a couple seconds to calm and leave the car. The cop, to me, showed almost no interest in rationally discussing the situation or de-escalating it.


If, after trying everything else and given a chance to relax, she still wasn't complying, a normal takedown or arm bar procedure would have made more sense. Yes, it could injure her (although if you read enough of these cases, you know that cops can do this without injury pretty well), but it sure as hell isn't going to kill her.

And the second tazing seemed totally gratutious as she was clearly not a threat and given her muscle contractions, I wouldn't be suprised if she couldn't easily comply.

Again, though, this is just from memory, and I would know more if I watched it again.

I just watched the video twice and I didn't see where she ever got out of the car until he hit her with the tazer gun. There was a woman in a pink dress/shirt who walked in between the mustang and the rodeo twice (I think), but the driver was still in the car. The first time the lady in pink appears the cop has just told her to shut the door and a moment later he makes his "OK, tell me my job" comment.

I have NO problem with tazers. My best friends husband is a cop, on K9 unit for Gwinnett County, and I don't know if he has a tazer, but I hope so. Hearing first hand stories about what cops go through every day just makes me more convinced that they should have things like tazers to assist them in their job. This woman was told 3 or 4 times that she was going to be tazered if she didn't get out of the car. She was lucid and thinking clearly enough to tell whoever she was talking to on the phone "he is going to shoot me" and then "he is going to tazer me" so she heard the cop and had processed what he had said - I don't buy the crap about she was tense and scared. She was trying to set up a law suit - telling her friend that so they could testify that he was threatening her for no reason. We don't know what happened when the second cop leaned in the car, but the point is, it shouldn't have gone that far. Those cops didn't know if she had a gun somewhere hidden in the car, she had not cooperated from the second he approached the car. In my opinion, the wailing after she rolled out of the car is her being overly dramatic. I'm glad he tazed her and I just wish she'd had to stay in jail long enough to miss her trip to Jamaica!

[Raiders Army]

Originally Posted by John Galt

Yet, tons of people here seem to think I'm entirely dishonest. And I take that personally.

For the record, I don't think you're dishonest.

Originally Posted by John Galt

Tazers, on the hand, always carry a risk of death. And it is hard to predict who will die (it isn't just the infirm).

Please provide some backup information as to what is the risk of death. 5%? A fraction of a percentage?

[John Galt]

Originally Posted by Raiders Army

For the record, I don't think you're dishonest.



Please provide some backup information as to what is the risk of death. 5%? A fraction of a percentage?

I have no numbers. As I said, it is hard to find use statistics (I'm not even sure they are compiled). Any number of deaths is unacceptable, IMO, if the use of the tazer was not necessary for the safety of the cop and/or other people. In this case (especially with the second tazer), there is no reasonable basis for a fear for safety. Hypotheticals about the possiblity of a weapon are not sufficient (otherwise EVERY shooting by a cop would be justified).

[Raiders Army]

On a side note, I thought this thread would go at least two pages after watching the video...but not in this direction.

[rkmsuf]

I don't get where the question is. How hard is it to follow directions? De-escalate? She wasn't listening to one word he said. I guess they could have just sat there all day and done some Abbott and Costello. Or maybe he could have called the swat team in.

[CraigSca]

I just watched part of the video - I didn't feel like watching the whole thing because I found it distasteful. Hmmm....

Though I am a conservative, I do feel like there was some excessive force involved. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure what extra steps the cop should have done before utilizing the tazer, but I do think it was used a bit prematurely. In general, I am a huge fan of the the police and the crap they go through. The few times I've been pulled over I've given the officer a hell of a lot of "yes sir"s or "yes ma'am"s.

However....watching this woman was like dealing with my 6 year old. You can state countless times - "you do this, here are the consequences", yet the child somehow finds himself doing the cause and I'm having to enforce the effect. It just amazes me how people somehow think being beligerent (sp?) and a total ass is the way to go. If you feel you've been wronged, be nice, say "yes sir" 500 times, and meet the officer in court. That's how the system works.

Both parties should agree to disagree and move on. In the meantime, if this lady is pulled over again she should put her d*ck away and shut up.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

The woman was extremely rude, refused to comply and resisted arrest. The officers responded with reasonable force in order to get her to comply. That in no way is comperable with your above "execution" scenario.

It's an absurd, illogical and faulty comparison. Try again.

When some one says she "deserved" it, this is no longer about safety of the officers. It is about punishment. You enjoyed this video (along with others) because you enjoy seeing her punished. Punishment is not in the hands of the police, though, and any force used should be neccesary for the situation. I question whether this situation was necessary for the tazer to be used, and I also believe the common doctrine on tazer use should be rewritten because it may be dangerous and abusive. BUT, if we are going to justify force by a "they deserved it" standard, then we are making the police judge, jury and executioners. That is a scary idea.

I'm a law and order guy. I don't believe the police are evil, and know many good police officers. I also don't believe police are infallable. There are some bad apples, and any guidelines on force must protect the public as much as the police.

[WSUCougar]

Rather than "she deserved it" I would state that "she instigated it."

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

When some one says she "deserved" it, this is no longer about safety of the officers. It is about punishment. You enjoyed this video (along with others) because you enjoy seeing her punished. Punishment is not in the hands of the police, though, and any force used should be neccesary for the situation. I question whether this situation was necessary for the tazer to be used, and I also believe the common doctrine on tazer use should be rewritten because it may be dangerous and abusive. BUT, if we are going to justify force by a "they deserved it" standard, then we are making the police judge, jury and executioners. That is a scary idea.

I'm a law and order guy. I don't believe the police are evil, and know many good police officers. I also don't believe police are infallable. There are some bad apples, and any guidelines on force must protect the public as much as the police.

Strawman. Whether I think she deserved it or not is immaterial. It's up to the officers to determine the hazzards of the situation. The point only works if the officers in question used a "they deserved it" standard. Whether I think she did or not has no bearing on the outcome in question.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

Rather than "she deserved it" I would state that "she instigated it."

And that I totally 100% agree with. And as I said earlier, I have no problems with the officers in this case (except maybe that second tazer shot), because they were using the device as trained. I just question the training and the force doctrine that created it. I think there needs to be more of a reason than belligerence behind its use.

[HomerJSimpson]

Originally Posted by Blackadar

Strawman. Whether I think she deserved it or not is immaterial. It's up to the officers to determine the hazzards of the situation. The point only works if the officers in question used a "they deserved it" standard. Whether I think she did or not has no bearing on the outcome in question.

I wasn't talking about the police officer in this case or his mind set. I was talking about yours, and others with the common attitude. I believe it is a dangerous one, and one that *some* officers do use to justify excessive force.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by John Galt

I have no numbers. As I said, it is hard to find use statistics (I'm not even sure they are compiled). Any number of deaths is unacceptable, IMO, if the use of the tazer was not necessary for the safety of the cop and/or other people. In this case (especially with the second tazer), there is no reasonable basis for a fear for safety. Hypotheticals about the possiblity of a weapon are not sufficient (otherwise EVERY shooting by a cop would be justified).

Isn't it standard procedure for all cops to get hit with a taser at least once during their training so they know what it is like? Wouldn't you think the departments would have to understand the risks to be almost zero before allowing their people to go through this?

[Blackadar]

Originally Posted by HomerJSimpson

I wasn't talking about the police officer in this case or his mind set. I was talking about yours, and others with the common attitude. I believe it is a dangerous one, and one that *some* officers do use to justify excessive force.

My attitude is not relevant. I could be a racist pig and it still doesn't matter.

Not to mention that my attitude is one in which I know that I am not likely to face such a situation as a suspect nor would I be in a position of authority (as an officer). Therefore, my attitude can be somewhat flippant as I have no real responsiblity in such a case. Were I to face this every day, I am sure I'd be a bit more serious.

But it doesn't change the fact that the woman resisted arrest and could have posed a threat with a weapon - and that's what I used to base my judgment that the cops were right in their actions.

That she totally deserved it - that this situation was of her own doing - is what makes it funny to me.