EDIT-NHL Season on Deathbed

[Coder]

Could someone explain that 2.25 mil "benefits" thingy? Bettman keeps talking about it in his letter..

We are increasing our offer of yesterday by increasing the maximum individual team cap to $44.7MM ($42.5MM in salary and $2.2MM in benefits).

Is what Bettman says in one of his letters to Goodenow

[riz]

Originally Posted by bbor

Riz better get started on that new economic engine for EHM

As soon as we know the details my friend. Not a minute earlier. And that is my final offer

Sort It Out Already !

I refuse to comment further on the lockout situation. I'll just sit back, get the popcorn and watch the showdown. And try and decide if I'm supposed to laugh or cry at this whole situation...

[Tekneek]

I am sure one of the things includes health insurance, as well as a basic life insurance policy, housing arrangements for traded players/call-ups/etc. The previous CBA included all of those sorts of things, so that cost is probably being factored into the cap so it is counted instead of being in addition to the salaries.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

In your case, the owner just packed up and drove his team into a much worse situation.

Quit dissing Carolina! When the 'canes play hard, the fans pack the arena. They just don't play hard very often.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

Quit dissing Carolina! When the 'canes play hard, the fans pack the arena. They just don't play hard very often.

I'll never forget security telling us that they do not allow fans to bang on the glass. That they would throw you out for doing it. I was amazed.

For all of the problems he may have had in Hartford, any objective person can observe that it is a better fit for ice hockey than Raleigh. I liked the arena, the people, and the area, but Nashville has embraced their team better than Raleigh has...however slightly.

[Maple Leafs]

Originally Posted by Coder

Could someone explain that 2.25 mil "benefits" thingy? Bettman keeps talking about it in his letter..

Each team pays roughly that in benefits. Bettman keeps including it in his cap number (to make it look higher than it is), Goodenow obviously doesn't. So they're $6.5 apart, not $4.3.

Reading between the lines, I don't think all these angry players you hear about today are angry about the cap. They're angry that they were told all along that a cap was evil and had to be avoided at all costs, and then the union offered one on the final day. I think a lot of players feel something along the lines of "Wait, you told me in September that I had to fight a cap, I gave up half my season and 24% of my future salary to avoid a cap, I went on TV and radio like you told me to shout about the evils of the cap, and now it's OK? What the hell was the last seven months about, then?"

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Maple Leafs

Reading between the lines, I don't think all these angry players you hear about today are angry about the cap. They're angry that they were told all along that a cap was evil and had to be avoided at all costs, and then the union offered one on the final day. I think a lot of players feel something along the lines of "Wait, you told me in September that I had to fight a cap, I gave up half my season and 24% of my future salary to avoid a cap, I went on TV and radio like you told me to shout about the evils of the cap, and now it's OK? What the hell was the last seven months about, then?"

Maybe. If so, I can sort of understand it. If that is what they are really going on about then Bob will be unemployed shortly. I'm still a little surprised that the grunt workforce has not pressured a vote already. The majority of the league makes less than the league average and could be frozen out by the minority of big money guys. Unless the big guys are paying their bills for them, this solidarity is costing them a whole lot more than it is Joe Sakic.

[vtbub]

Dunno what our Canadian posters think of Bob McKenzie, but his take is rather grim:

TSN.ca Click here to find out more!
McKenzie: I don't see any hope

TSN.ca Staff

2/16/2005

Quite frankly, I just don't see any hope for a season.

You always allow for a possibility of a miracle, that infinitesimally small percentage point that maybe something will happen at the last second to save the season, but logic would dictate otherwise.

There is a huge gap here. The NHL proposed a $42.5 million hard cap vs. the NHLPA proposal of a $49 million soft cap that could be as much as $53.9 million depending on the circumstances.

Those are big numbers to crunch. Right now, I don't see the NHLPA making the move to $42.5 and I don't see the NHL making the move from $42.5 to anything - maybe $43 or $44 million. When you put it in that context, where do we go?

Nowhere.

The facts are the facts. When NHL Commissioner Gary Bettman publicly stated that he wasn't willing to go any higher than $42.5 million on a hard salary cap and with that they still feel like they're extending themselves, for me that was a signal that that's it. He's not going to negotiate that number and we're not going to have a season, unless the players agree to that.

It certainly doesn't look as though that is going to happen.

It looks like a numerical argument now. The average person at home is saying ''let me get this straight, the NHL wants a $42.5 million hard cap and the Players Association proposed a $49 million cap. Are you telling me that a $6.5 million difference per team is going to be the thing that kills the season?''

Yes it is. Those are bigger numbers than they look. If you multiply $6.5 million times 30 teams means we're almost talking about $200 million. On top of that, the $49 million that the NHLPA proposed is a soft cap. They have two exceptions in six years that would allow teams to go 10% over the cap. So as far as the NHLPA is concerned, the real hard cap - at least twice - for each team would be $53.9 million. The NHL feels overextended at $42.5 million. That's a big difference and it's a difference that doesn't look like it's going to get breeched.

It's sad to say but the time for creativity has passed. On Valentine's Day, the two sides finally got together and decided to make up. The league came off linkage and the NHLPA agreed to a salary cap. With the spectre of the season going down the drain they finally started to negotiate. Where the heck were they six months ago?

It has been a bizarre, dysfunctional process from the get go. While it's hard to predict what will happen down the road, I'm sure that the Harvard Law School, business schools and journalism schools will take what's happened over the past year between the NHL and the NHLPA, and I guarantee that there will be case studies and books written about this very bizarre process.



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[Coder]

Anyone following this Blog:

http://hockeyrumors.blogspot.com/

Guy claims to have some kind of inside track to what's going on... he claims to have worked inside two NHL organizations etc etc.. just found out about him the other day, but apparently he's been writing "inside info" throughout the lockout..

[riz]

Originally Posted by Coder

Anyone following this Blog:

http://hockeyrumors.blogspot.com/

Guy claims to have some kind of inside track to what's going on... he claims to have worked inside two NHL organizations etc etc.. just found out about him the other day, but apparently he's been writing "inside info" throughout the lockout..

...and has been shot down constantly. There are loads of threads about this on HFBoards and it isn't the most reliable source you want to read

[rkmsuf]

That would be the funniest thing ever if they don't get it done over 4.3 million.

Fitting really the way the sport has been run.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

That would be the funniest thing ever if they don't get it done over 4.3 million.

You're missing out on a lot of good stuff then. While it may be funny, one would have to lead a rather sheltered life to find it the funniest thing ever.

[Coder]

Originally Posted by riz

...and has been shot down constantly. There are loads of threads about this on HFBoards and it isn't the most reliable source you want to read

Yeah, I heard about him through the HF-boards, and understood people were skeptical about him.. so I'm taking his stuff with a grain of salt.. now he's saying that if the league agrees to 45 mil that the PA will agree to it..

But honestly.. isn't it too late to just agree on a cap-sum?

I mean, there are so many other details that they haven't mentioned lately.. unrestricted free agency, rookie salary-caps etc etc... don't they need that stuff taken care of as well?

Personally, I want the league to get started (though not before Saturday, as I have tickets for Färjestad vs Frölunda ;-), hello Chara, Souray, Alfredsson, Gerber, Axelsson, Påhlsson, Sami Salo etc) because I want the draft to be based on something other than a complete lottery. At the same time I'm thinking that a 28-game schedule wouldn't be fair either.. I mean, look at Toronto for example.. which Leafs have had any kind of season so far.. Sundin has been "resting", Domi wasn't welcome to play in Sweden.. Mccabe was signed by HV71 but was cut.. Belfour.. what's he done? Same goes for Detroit, Rangers and all the "older" teams.. the ones who have played in Europe are mostly younger guys.. I bet Tampa will do a repeat if there's a season this year.

[Tekneek]

The agreements on free agency, rookie caps, and so on are probably already worked out...to the point that they have a mutual understanding and could grind that out in hours.

[Logan]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

That would be the funniest thing ever if they don't get it done over 4.3 million.

Fitting really the way the sport has been run.

The problem is...it's not JUST $4.3 million. That figure is only that small if it includes benefits (which the PA isn't including in its number) and a hard cap (while the PA's number is for a soft cap that can go 10% higher). Read the McKenzie article posted above.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Much funnier that anything Lucile Ball ever did and funnier than watching Dan Marino whine like a little beotch out on the field.

If those are the only things you have to compare it with, you may be right.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

You're missing out on a lot of good stuff then. While it may be funny, one would have to lead a rather sheltered life to find it the funniest thing ever.

Much funnier that anything Lucile Ball ever did and funnier than watching Dan Marino whine like a little beotch out on the field.

[vtbub]

For those who still care, this is not good:

TSN.ca Click here to find out more!
Deadline passes for NHLPA to accept NHL deal

TSN.ca Staff with CP files

2/16/2005

NEW YORK - The National Hockey League's deadline for the NHL Players' Association to accept its $42.5 million hard cap proposal has passed, with all signs pointing to commissioner Gary Bettman announcing the cancellation of the 2004-2005 season at a 1pm et/10am pt news conference in New York (live on TSN and TSN.ca).

The league has already sent out memos to its teams that it has not contacted the union since Tuesday night, and the season will be cancelled. Neither side has contacted each other since wrapping up a public letter-writing campaign, when the NHL and the union stood pat with a $6.5 million gap.

Click on to TSN.ca for all the latest updates.

The only letter that came on Wednesday was a press release from the NHLPA saying it had scheduled its own news conference for 4pm et/1pm pt in Toronto.

Click here to find out more!


Related Info
McKenzie: I don't see any hope
NHL, NHLPA separated by $6.5 million
Bettman-Goodenow correspondence
Players surprised at salary cap move

The league and Players' Association came off a tumultuous 48-hour period which saw both sides break down barriers that had existed for more than two years.

The league took less than an hour to reject the NHLPA's offer of a $49-million team-by-team salary cap Tuesday night, sticking to the $42.5-million submission it made earlier in the evening.

"If every team spent to the $49-million level you have proposed, total player compensation would exceed what we spent last season and, assuming for discussion purposes, there was no damage to the game, our player compensation costs would exceed 75 per cent of revenues," Bettman wrote in his second letter of the day to NHLPA executive director Bob Goodenow. "We cannot afford your proposal.

"Our offer of earlier (Tuesday) was a $75-million increase over the offer we made (Monday). I hope you will accept it, and that we can move forward and negotiate the myriad of other issues that need to be addressed."

Two hours after that rejection, Goodenow fired a letter back at Bettman.

"Your claim that the clubs cannot afford our proposal is based on your hypothetical fear of what would happen "if every team spent to the $49-million leve the players have proposed,"' wrote Goodenow. "The notion that every club will spend at the $49-million level is contradicted by years of actual payroll experience under the old CBA system..."

Goodenow then added, "You will receive nothing further from us."

Goodenow had taken just over four hours to turn down the league's offer of a $42.5-million salary cap, an offer Bettman warned did not warrant further negotiations.

The league's offer features a $42.5-million cap, with a luxury tax of 50 per cent on payrolls from $34 million to $42.5 million. Offers from both sides in the last two days included a salary rollback of 24 per cent on all existing player contracts and covered six full seasons.

Aside from dropping its cap figure from $52 million to $49 million on Tuesday night, the union also restructured the exception provision so that teams can only go over the cap twice during the six-year term and "for up to only 10 per cent over the limit of $49 million (to $53.9 million), at the tax rate of 150 per cent."

The rest of the luxury tax would worked like this: 25 per cent on $40 million-$43 million, 50 per cent on $43 million-$46 million and 75 per cent from $46 million-$49 million. The deal also included a minimum payroll of $25 million.

The NHLPA's previous offer Monday allowed provisions for teams to spend as much as 10 per cent more than that on three occasions in a six-year period. The luxury tax worked at 25 per cent on $40 million-$44 million; 50 per cent on $44 million-$48 million; 75 per cent on $48 million-$52 million and 150 per cent on $52 million-$57.2 million.

The league's $42.5-million salary cap would be the figure for all six years of the new collective bargaining agreement.

Counting the rollback of 24 per cent, four teams are currently over the $42.5-million figure before signing any free agents. Detroit ($43.38 million), New Jersey ($46.32 million), Philadelphia ($50 million) and Toronto ($46.6 million) would be over. Dallas ($40.77 million) and Colorado ($40.27 million) would be on the bubble without signing anyone else.

Through Wednesday, 840 of the 1,230 regular-season games have gone by the wayside.

If an agreement can still be reached, the league has a shortened schedule ready to go that would see teams play 28 regular-season games, playing only within their conference. The playoffs would stay the same.


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[Honolulu_Blue]

If Bettman announces the season in cancelled at 1:00 pm today, at 1:05 both he and Goodenow should be fired. On the spot. End of discussion. This entire process has been absolutely f*cking pathetic. It's Bush League. They didn't even begin speaking the same language until last night and this thing has been going on for months now. I hate these guys... I hate these guys so very, very much...

If they don't reach an agreement, which it sounds like they wont, the NHL will begin to fade into oblivion and will be roasted over the coals for cancelling the entire season over $6.5 million. Granted, that is not a completely fair assessment, since in real terms it's more than that, but still. It's the number people will cling to and mock the NHL for. It will not help the already pathetic perception of the league.

Granted, even if a miracle happens and they reach an agreement in the 13th hour and there is a season this year. We have a 28 game season and full play-offs. On one hand it should be exciting because every game will really count. On the other hand it will be a bit of a joke because it's so short and I assume nothing will be done to improve the quality of the game. It will be the same exact product that has turned off droves of fans for years. The league will still suffer. This shit should have been taken care of months ago, giving the league some time to focus on the product (making whatever changes they feel necessary, smaller goalie pads, whatever), and then put out one hell of a good season to try and whip up some passion for the game.

I don't know... Since September I have been resigned to the fact there would be no season this year. I had no hope. Then last night things changed, what were once fundamental differences between the two sides seemed to disappear (the cap) and it was all about numbers. A sliver of hope crept in.

[Tekneek]

Good. They can trot out there today and commit suicide, while each blames the other for it. Blame yourselves, guys.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by Honolulu_Blue

Then last night things changed, what were once fundamental differences between the two sides seemed to disappear (the cap) and it was all about numbers. A sliver of hope crept in.

Yeah, that's the worst part. Battling proposals that we could tell neither side would accept was fun to play with, but you knew it wouldn't get anywhere. I figured the season was shot anyway, but then they finally demonstrate that there IS room for a compromise. That they can have some common ground. After that, they still rip the rug out from under the whole thing. Good riddance, ya bastards.

[Maple Leafs]

If the season is cancelled and anyone on either side has the stones to actually look into a camera and say "We did everything we could", I think I may be sick.

Get it done, or go away.

[Tekneek]

Rumors are swirling now, and most are probably bullshit. Someone is saying that the NHLPA offered to drop to $45 million, but the league still won't take it. That has to be bull.

[DeToxRox]

A guy within the Wings organization was on the radio saying they're going to play.

I can't confirm how legit he is, but this is all I heard.

Thought I'd pass it along.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by DeToxRoxDVHStyle

A guy within the Wings organization was on the radio saying they're going to play.

Like I was saying, I can already tell the rumor mill is spinning away. We are going to hear a lot of stuff between now and when some definitive announcement is made.

[bhlloy]

Bettman and Goodenow have to go even if something does get worked out. Goodenow has completely lost the faith of the players (see Matt Barnaby and Joe Sakic's comments about how they feel about the union). Bettman I have a feeling might manage to hang on which is a shame considering he's killing the sport.

[Draft Dodger]

Bettman comes across as somewhat Napoleonish. it almost seems like he really wants to cancel the season to prove that he can, rather than come up with a solution.

[Honolulu_Blue]

Originally Posted by bhlloy

Bettman and Goodenow have to go even if something does get worked out. Goodenow has completely lost the faith of the players (see Matt Barnaby and Joe Sakic's comments about how they feel about the union). Bettman I have a feeling might manage to hang on which is a shame considering he's killing the sport.

I couldn't agree more. Even if Bettman comes out and announces the season has been saved at 1:00 pm, the 1:05 pm firing of both would be called for.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

I'll never forget security telling us that they do not allow fans to bang on the glass. That they would throw you out for doing it. I was amazed.

For all of the problems he may have had in Hartford, any objective person can observe that it is a better fit for ice hockey than Raleigh. I liked the arena, the people, and the area, but Nashville has embraced their team better than Raleigh has...however slightly.

Nashville has a team that plays hard and has been steadily improving, Raleigh has a team that didn't care except for 2 short stretches.

[Pyser]

ill definitely be watching espn at 1 pm today, thats for sure.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

There is an original six franchise that is weaker than almost all of the expansion franchises from San Jose on. That's the Chicago Blackhawks. If you were going to contract Minnesota, Columbus, Atlanta, Ottawa, Florida, Tampa Bay, or San Jose, you'd better take Chicago out of the game first.

The difference is that everyone knows the Hawks can make money. We've just been subjected to such hideous ownership that they've killed off some interest.

SI

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

We've just been subjected to such hideous ownership that they've killed off some interest.

some interest? I would say a whole lot of interest. Out of 30 teams last season, Chicago came in 27th in average home attendance.

[Tekneek]

Here we go... I'm at work so I am trying to do the streaming audio without getting busted for violating the usage policies here... The audio came on, but it has not started yet.

I suppose he is cancelling it, based on his tone. My streaming audio died a bit into it...maybe the firewall guys killed the connection...yay...

No big loss.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

some interest? I would say a whole lot of interest. Out of 30 teams last season, Chicago came in 27th in average home attendance.

Yeah, but if you put together a winning season or two or (yay) get rid of the owner, then that's completely different.

SI

[gstelmack]

CNN-SI is reporting he canned the season.

[rkmsuf]

Cancelled.

What buffoons.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by sterlingice

Yeah, but if you put together a winning season or two or (yay) get rid of the owner, then that's completely different.

So, we have to figure out which teams won't have good attendance once they string together a couple of winning seasons? That sounds easy...

[Tekneek]

The NHL sucks. I hope they never resolve it. I'd rather see the whole thing collapse. They need to give the Stanley Cup to someone who will actually award it every season.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

So, we have to figure out which teams won't have good attendance once they string together a couple of winning seasons? That sounds easy...

I think for an Original Six team, there are slightly different standards.

SI

[Ksyrup]

I hate to say I was right, but...

Basically, the union caved way too late, and now is stuck with having to agree to a salary cap at some point. If that was even a remote possibility 6 months ago, they should have just caved at that point and given themselves more than 2 days to sort out the details. Absolutely ridiculous that they thought they could make concessions AND sort out the details in 48 hours. They played right into the owners' hands.

[henry296]

If the owners had decided to not link the salary cap to revenues earlier, we might have had a deal too.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

The NHL sucks. I hope they never resolve it. I'd rather see the whole thing collapse. They need to give the Stanley Cup to someone who will actually award it every season.

That's not far fetched. Especially with the mensa members involved in it.

They are so stupid they don't realize this is possible.

See you in 2006 for more negotiations sans a couple teams suckers.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I hate to say I was right, but...

Basically, the union caved way too late, and now is stuck with having to agree to a salary cap at some point. If that was even a remote possibility 6 months ago, they should have just caved at that point and given themselves more than 2 days to sort out the details. Absolutely ridiculous that they thought they could make concessions AND sort out the details in 48 hours. They played right into the owners' hands.

Of course you'd say that:

Ksyrup
Owner


SI

[Maple Leafs]

I have zero respect for Bettman.

I also think Goodenow has made a disastrous miscalculation here.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by henry296

If the owners had decided to not link the salary cap to revenues, earlier we might have had a deal too.

Actually, the instant the players said "we're willing to consider a cap", the owners dropped this requirement. Up until this point it didn't matter if the cap was tied to revenues or not, the players weren't going to take it, so why pull that particular part out? All evidence pointed to the fact that dropping that part would have no impact on negotiations.

I'm in the "if the players had only agreed to a cap months ago, they could have reached a negotiated agreement on what the cap should be and had a pretty reasonable season" camp.

[SackAttack]

Everybody involved has miscalculated badly. It will take twenty years, at least, to repair the damage.

If it can be repaired.

[rkmsuf]

Originally Posted by Ksyrup

I hate to say I was right, but...

Basically, the union caved way too late, and now is stuck with having to agree to a salary cap at some point. If that was even a remote possibility 6 months ago, they should have just caved at that point and given themselves more than 2 days to sort out the details. Absolutely ridiculous that they thought they could make concessions AND sort out the details in 48 hours. They played right into the owners' hands.

Part of it is the players just don't care. They make good money in Europe, in some cases more money over there. Half of them probably don't even want to come back.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by Tekneek

The NHL sucks. I hope they never resolve it. I'd rather see the whole thing collapse.

You might just get your wish - I can't imagine many of the bandwagon fans coming back after this. The diehards might come back IF there is a season next year but I can't believe many of the people who have developed a slight interest in the NHL over the past couple of years will give a crap now. I would not be at all surprised to see a team or two fold over the next six months. And while there are diehard fans they are nowhere near enough to support the league with the size its grown to - even with the bandwagon fans there wasn't enough support.

My question is how dumb are the players? You can blame Bettman all you want but at the end of the day this lies on the players and not the owners. This wasn't about free agency rights or arbitration rights or anything else - this came down to one thing and that was the financial feasability of the NHL. The players were going to lose this one no matter what - why on earth could they not understand that? Yes the owners spent foolishly and yes Bettman has expanded the league too fast into markets it should not have gone probably but they were going to win this battle no matter what.

Question for the NHLPA - which is greater : 76% of your salary - any % reduction in the future because teams have to stay under a cap or ZERO? After all, nobody in the NFL makes a good living having to play under a hard cap, right? The league can't even get a national TV deal and the players think they should make as much money as anyone in the NFL, MLB or NBA - how stupid.

[Tekneek]

Originally Posted by rkmsuf

Part of it is the players just don't care. They make good money in Europe, in some cases more money over there. Half of them probably don't even want to come back.

Most are not making more money over there. The only guys who would be are guys who were fringe players here, but managed to secure solid roles there. Overall, few were going to make more money elsewhere, even with the salary cap.

[sterlingice]

Originally Posted by SackAttack

Everybody involved has miscalculated badly. It will take twenty years, at least, to repair the damage.

If it can be repaired.

Yeah, I'm hoping they don't just use this same logo and scrub that "2004-05 Season" off therein a few years. I dunno- the NHL is big enough and credible enough to be back, despite this entire retarded exercise. But I'm not sure the numbers will work because the next few years after they come to an agreement (and they will at some point, tho it may be toolate) and if that's the case, then, yes, the NHL is dead.

SI