Ping: The One True Dark Jedi

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

missing the point entirely.

I can tell you firsthand that there is a TREMENDOUS amount of work that goes into making these sets (I spent well over 150 hours on mine, and that doesn't include the time spent writing a program to assist me with it). If someone came along and appeared to (key word "appeared") be simply repackaging my set, I would be furious. I would come in with both guns blazing as well.

I know that Ben had good intentions - it wasn't even something he set out to do, just a last-minute afterthought. Modders don't get paid for their effort; they just get the thanks from everyone in the community (except for Malleus, but he's a douchebag). Doing something like this without permission seems innocent enough, but anything that takes credit away from the original work can be tough to swallow.

Yes, Scott came on pretty strong right off the bat, but I think if Ben had just apologized sincerely up front for the mistake, that thread wouldn't have turned into the train wreck it bacame.

Different strokes for different folks then...I've freely given away code for the old FOF Almanac, as well as for the utilities I use on the IHOF site, and despite the fact that those efforts have taken hundreds of man hours, I don't feel the need to make sure credit has been given to me. I would guess that SD and I share the same view that it doesn't matter where stuff comes from as long as it helps further the community.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Wouldn't that be the same thing that SD's post stated?

Not to me, others have stated why better than I can below your intial posting of this quote.

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Different strokes for different folks then...I've freely given away code for the old FOF Almanac, as well as for the utilities I use on the IHOF site, and despite the fact that those efforts have taken hundreds of man hours, I don't feel the need to make sure credit has been given to me. I would guess that SD and I share the same view that it doesn't matter where stuff comes from as long as it helps further the community.

While I can understand that, I dont think it invalidates the desire of those who do wish to be credited.

[LivnLegend]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Actually, quite honestly, it's not (if true, which it certainly seems to be, from your response):

You are using their work without permission. He is using your work without permission.

What's the difference?

Look at the CM games. They had to remove most of the photos from the last couple of them, because of the photographer's rights thing.

Your platform doesn't seem to be as solid as first believed.

I never claimed to take the photos myself. In my readme file I mentioned the photos were gathered from numerous team web site locations. I merely edited the photos (removed all team logos and identifying marks) and resized them to work in OOTP. I did not profit from the venture in any shape or form. I did not use them to compete with the minor league baseball operations they came from. No one outside the OOTP universe would ever be aware they even existed.

SkyDog then took my work, combined it with others, and released it as his own back to the OOTP community. I have nothing to lose by him doing this since I stood nothing to gain. I merely asked him to do the right thing which he chose not to do, over and over again. It seems cut and dry to me but apparently it seems obvious to SkyDog that you don't have to credit other people in the community for their work when you incorporate it into your own. We aren't talking about a few lines of online league rules here, we are talking about countless hours I spent over the past 2+ years that he took and used as his own, intentional or not.

Again, I sent him an earnest PM. If the guy is admirable as you seem to state by your backing of him, I hope he does the right thing.

[HornedFrog Purple]

And I only went over there to find the new trading settings that people mentioned worked better, and I still never found them....

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

or, better yet, his music.

exactly. Or let's say they took it, remixed it a little and then sold it with no credit being given. I doubt he'd be singing the same tune then.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

missing the point entirely.

Oh, I think it's hit the mark entirely. There's a quote that applies here, don't you think.. the one about glass houses and stones. If LivinLegend had put together a list of sites/places he had grabbed the photos from, in a Thank You file, (I can't say that he has, I haven't downloaded the file), then I would expect any other to respect that same rule. But apparently (and I have to stress that), LivinLegend expects to do one thing with other people's work.., and expects others to do another when they deal with HIS work..

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I know that Ben had good intentions - it wasn't even something he set out to do, just a last-minute afterthought. Modders don't get paid for their effort; they just get the thanks from everyone in the community (except for Malleus, but he's a douchebag). Doing something like this without permission seems innocent enough, but anything that takes credit away from the original work can be tough to swallow.

Yes, Scott came on pretty strong right off the bat, but I think if Ben had just apologized sincerely up front for the mistake, that thread wouldn't have turned into the train wreck it bacame.

And it wouldn't have turned into a train wreck if Scott had approached him privately, and not made a public spectacle about it.

[Noop]

This is to funny...FOBL constitution.... me thinks some fellas take this game too serious...

[LivnLegend]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

And it wouldn't have turned into a train wreck if Scott had approached him privately, and not made a public spectacle about it.

I did. I already stated I sent him a PM first. I won't divulge the info in his PM but needless to say, his response caused me to take the issue up publicly.

[JeeberD]

Originally Posted by Chubby

exactly. Or let's say they took it, remixed it a little and then sold it with no credit being given. I doubt he'd be singing the same tune then.

SkyDog isn't selling anything...

But still, I agree that he should specifically credit those whose facepacks he used instead of a general "thanks to everyone"...

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

I never claimed to take the photos myself. In my readme file I mentioned the photos were gathered from numerous team web site locations. I merely edited the photos (removed all team logos and identifying marks) and resized them to work in OOTP. I did not profit from the venture in any shape or form. I did not use them to compete with the minor league baseball operations they came from. No one outside the OOTP universe would ever be aware they even existed.

SkyDog then took my work, combined it with others, and released it as his own back to the OOTP community.

SkyDog did THE EXACT SAME THING YOU DID. He clearly stated he got these photos from other photo packs. You stated you got your photos from other sources. I'm with the "glass houses" folks here.

In other words, I think you were both wrong

[VPI97]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

While I can understand that, I dont think it invalidates the desire of those who do wish to be credited.

Fair enough, but placing one's 'publicity' over something's value to a community seems petty and childish.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

Oh, I think it's hit the mark entirely. There's a quote that applies here, don't you think.. the one about glass houses and stones. If LivinLegend had put together a list of sites/places he had grabbed the photos from, in a Thank You file, (I can't say that he has, I haven't downloaded the file), then I would expect any other to respect that same rule. But apparently (and I have to stress that), LivinLegend expects to do one thing with other people's work.., and expects others to do another when they deal with HIS work...

sorry, I can't even come close to understanding how your arguement applies. LL (and myself) make no claims to owning the photos - we're compiling them for others to use, and just asking that we get credit for that. not a big deal, I don't think I'm going to put that info on my resume, but these sets DO represent a lot of work invested, and do save a lot of time for the people who do download them (I assume you don't). I don't remember seeing you complaining about "real-life" roster sets for OOTP and FOF - do you think the guys putting those out have permission from the various leagues/unions?

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

And it wouldn't have turned into a train wreck if Scott had approached him privately, and not made a public spectacle about it.

or, if Ben had just asked nicely in the first place.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

SkyDog then took my work, combined it with others, and released it as his own back to the OOTP community.

I don't want to get too depp into this argument other than to say I think this may be overstating the situation a bit. SkyDog put that face pack together for his own use without the intention of releaseing it to anyone. He was not in that frame of mind when he was putting it together. If I udnerstand it correctly someone (DD I believe) suggested he post it on the board to save other people the trouble having to combine the packs themselves.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

SkyDog did THE EXACT SAME THING YOU DID. He clearly stated he got these photos from other photo packs. You stated you got your photos from other sources. I'm with the "glass houses" folks here.

In other words, I think you were both wrong

Skydog spent a couple hours. LL spent days or weeks. this doesn't need to be this hard.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by VPI97

Fair enough, but placing one's 'publicity' over something's value to a community seems petty and childish.

he doesn't want a medal. truth is, I doubt SD would have even FOUND LL's set if I hadn't pointed him in the direction of it with a thread on the OOTP boards. Scott put out the set pretty quietly, and hasn't pimped it much at all (nowhere near as much as I do mine). I believe it was something he created for his own use, and then offered up to the community.

[SirFozzie]

LL Said "Thank you to the folks whose photos I used to create this photopack"

SD said "Thank you to the folks who created the photopacks that I combined for this combined download"

You're right, DD. It doesn't have to be this hard.

[The_herd]

Ackkk. My wife is making me go to the store. I'll have to read all the fun after the fact. Dammit, I miss all the fun.

[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

Skydog spent a couple hours. LL spent days or weeks. this doesn't need to be this hard.

So the effort matters? Had SkyDog spent more time on this, it would be okay for him not to give credit to the source? Or had he combined more packs, it would be okay? Is that the reason it's okay for the original pack authors to not credit their sources in the same detail SkyDog is being asked to credit his?

And no, it doesn't need to be hard.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by gstelmack

So the effort matters? Had SkyDog spent more time on this, it would be okay for him not to give credit to the source? Or had he combined more packs, it would be okay? Is that the reason it's okay for the original pack authors to not credit their sources in the same detail SkyDog is being asked to credit his?

And no, it doesn't need to be hard.

sure. I'd say that if Ben went in, and edited or cropped all x,000 pictures in the set by hand (maybe he wanted to release a B&W set based on it?), then it would be ok in my book (can't speak for anyone else). I'd still feel better if he thanked the original compilers with something a little less generic than "thanks for the guys who actually made these", but that's me.

throwing a bunch of files together and running a renaming program isn't enough.

[SirFozzie]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, DD (no offense intended). Might this fall into a subset of the Golden Rule, maybe? (Treat other people's stuff the same way you wish others would treat yours)

And I thank you and LL and others for making the various facepacks and real-life addons for the game, it does make things more immersive. I just have a different viewpoint then you on this issue, I guess.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

sure. I'd say that if Ben went in, and edited or cropped all x,000 pictures in the set by hand (maybe he wanted to release a B&W set based on it?), then it would be ok in my book (can't speak for anyone else).

Well, as long as there is a clear-cut standard.

[LivnLegend]

Geez, unbelievable.

Fine, you guys win! I give up!
There seems to be no use in trying to appeal to most of the crowd here.
I'm dropping the issue.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by primelord

I don't want to get too depp into this argument other than to say I think this may be overstating the situation a bit. SkyDog put that face pack together for his own use without the intention of releaseing it to anyone. He was not in that frame of mind when he was putting it together. If I udnerstand it correctly someone (DD I believe) suggested he post it on the board to save other people the trouble having to combine the packs themselves.

and I think this is really the crux of it, and we're losing focus on it.

SD made an honest mistake. He should have asked LL if he could do it, and, at the very least, he should have specifically thanked the people who made the sets.
When his mistake was brought to his attention, he should have taken the high road and apoligized clearly and concisely right there. No screwing around with quotes and debates and explanations. Just an "I'm sorry, I didn't realize what I did wasn't cool". That's it in a nutshell.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

Geez, unbelievable.

Fine, you guys win! I give up!
There seems to be no use in trying to appeal to most of the crowd here.
I'm dropping the issue.

Don't worry, you never had a chance of winning here. There are some of us that believe you should have been credited (along with anyone else).

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

and I think this is really the crux of it, and we're losing focus on it.

SD made an honest mistake. He should have asked LL if he could do it, and, at the very least, he should have specifically thanked the people who made the sets.
When his mistake was brought to his attention, he should have taken the high road and apoligized clearly and concisely right there. No screwing around with quotes and debates and explanations. Just an "I'm sorry, I didn't realize what I did wasn't cool". That's it in a nutshell.

Exactly.

[Hammer755]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

LL Said "Thank you to the folks whose photos I used to create this photopack"

SD said "Thank you to the folks who created the photopacks that I combined for this combined download"

You're right, DD. It doesn't have to be this hard.

I think the big difference in this case is that the photography credit information is entirely unavailable, while the compilation and preparation credit information is not.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, DD (no offense intended). I just have a different viewpoint then you on this issue, I guess.

I can accept that. Certainly we don't see eye to eye on this. No point in dragging it out.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

Geez, unbelievable.

Fine, you guys win! I give up!
There seems to be no use in trying to appeal to most of the crowd here.
I'm dropping the issue.

I understand why you're pissed. But when looking at from a 3rd party perspective, there is no standard way of doing things, so getting pissed seems like a waste of time. Its ok to give a general thanks for the photos when compiling them for a facepack. But when compiling several facepacks a general thanks isn't enough.

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by Chubby

Exactly.

I'd also like to point out to the court that just because Chubby agrees with me, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

[MacroGuru]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

sure. I'd say that if Ben went in, and edited or cropped all x,000 pictures in the set by hand (maybe he wanted to release a B&W set based on it?), then it would be ok in my book (can't speak for anyone else). I'd still feel better if he thanked the original compilers with something a little less generic than "thanks for the guys who actually made these", but that's me.

throwing a bunch of files together and running a renaming program isn't enough.

So, your saying if I launch photoshop, run a batch process on the thousands of phots that not only crops but black and whites the images (BTW, this would only take me the matter of minutes) it would be ok for me to call this work my own? Just cause I modified the images? Wow, I need to get into the facepack modding business.

Obviously SD was wrong, he apologized in his thread, LL feels it is hollow, and is still a bit pissed at the way he was treated. Understandable.

However, we are all trolls, enjoy the flame war that has erupted on two messageboards and will continue to provoke it.

So anyway, carry on.

Just some random observations by some bored dork, sitting in his cube in Utah.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I'd also like to point out to the court that just because Chubby agrees with me, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Too late, you're screwed

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by The_herd

I understand why you're pissed. But when looking at from a 3rd party perspective, there is no standard way of doing things, so getting pissed seems like a waste of time. Its ok to give a general thanks for the photos when compiling them for a facepack. But when compiling several facepacks a general thanks isn't enough.

are you agreeing, or disagreeing? sounds like you are making LL's arguement.

[Schmidty]

Can we change SirFozzie's title from "Defensive Coordinator" to "Lapdog Extraordinaire"?

[cthomer5000]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I'd also like to point out to the court that just because Chubby agrees with me, doesn't mean I'm wrong.

Ditto. Rarely do Chubby and I seem eye-to-eye, but I think we have the same feeling on this one.


*takes a good, long look at himself in the mirror and wonders what he has become*

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by indoorsoccersim

So, your saying if I launch photoshop, run a batch process on the thousands of phots that not only crops but black and whites the images (BTW, this would only take me the matter of minutes) it would be ok for me to call this work my own? Just cause I modified the images? Wow, I need to get into the facepack modding business.

if you credited me for it, I'd have no issue with it.
not much of a business though, considering you don't make money off of it.

[Schmidty]

Dola

Originally Posted by Noop

This is to funny...FOBL constitution.... me thinks some follows take the game to serious...

That was the worst sentence in history. Congrats, Jar-Jar.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Schmidty

Can we change SirFozzie's title from "Defensive Coordinator" to "Lapdog Extraordinaire"?

I dunno, can we change yours to Ignorant Fucktard, in return?

[Draft Dodger]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

I dunno, can we change yours to Ignorant Fucktard, in return?

I'd kind of been holding out for that one.

[The_herd]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

are you agreeing, or disagreeing? sounds like you are making LL's arguement.

Originally Posted by The_herd

Its ok to give a general thanks for the photos when compiling them for a facepack. But when compiling several facepacks a general thanks isn't enough.

This is the part thats hard to understand for me, and I'm sure its the same for a few people here. Or I'm just stupid (could be the answer).

Time spent doing something appears to be the factor in determining whether or not general credit is ok. My question is, at what point does it become ok for a general thanks?

And the fact that Chubby agrees with you has nothing to with me arguing.

[SirFozzie]

Originally Posted by Draft Dodger

I'd kind of been holding out for that one.

*Laughs out loud*

[Bonegavel]

whomever talked about LL redoing Skydog's music and reselling it is way off base and is a totally different issue. Skydog's music is copyrighted and LL's facepack isn't copyrighted. Sure he did a lot of work on it, but it isn't his to sell.

Would it have been nice for Ben to spend the time crediting the work? Sure, but he didn't. In the future, if you don't want somebody redistributing mod-material, don't put it out there. Now, if you had taken these photos yourself and sold the face pack, this is all moot and Ben should be slapped in his red, white, and blues.

Ben stepped on your toes, no doubt about it, but you really are over reacting. Next time if I were you, I would put LivinLegend across the bottom of the pics or your real name or your web site or whatever to distiguish them as yours. This way, you will have eternal credit.

aside: I once created a map for Quake II that was used heavily on my ISPs server. People loved it. I later found out that somebody created a SUPER SIMILAR variation of my map and named it my map name and slapped a 2 on it. Nowhere did my handle or name appear in the readme or in the map itself. I was just happy somebody thought it useful and fun enough to steal. BTW, I had spent countless hours creating the concept and theme of the map that was directly ripped off and again, it didn't bother me one bit because it was for other people's enjoyment. That is why I created the map in the first place.

[Schmidty]

Don't you have a tree to go punch, Davey?

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by cthomer5000

Ditto. Rarely do Chubby and I seem eye-to-eye, but I think we have the same feeling on this one.


*takes a good, long look at himself in the mirror and wonders what he has become*

This is twice in the last week is it not?

DUH DUH DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (that doesn't sound as cool as when I make the noise but oh well)

[SirFozzie]

*grumbles* That was then. I'm better now

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by LivnLegend

I sent an ernest PM to SkyDog.

Did it start out with: "Hey Vern!"

And isn't "Ignorant Fucktard" redundant?

Sorry, when you come late to the party all you've got to work with is other people's crumbs...

[Fritz]

SkyDog has a big butt and is a facestealer (NOT FECESSTEALER)? heavens to ez.

[Chubby]

Originally Posted by Bonegavel

whomever talked about LL redoing Skydog's music and reselling it is way off base and is a totally different issue. Skydog's music is copyrighted and LL's facepack isn't copyrighted. Sure he did a lot of work on it, but it isn't his to sell.

Would it have been nice for Ben to spend the time crediting the work? Sure, but he didn't. In the future, if you don't want somebody redistributing mod-material, don't put it out there. Now, if you had taken these photos yourself and sold the face pack, this is all moot and Ben should be slapped in his red, white, and blues.

Ben stepped on your toes, no doubt about it, but you really are over reacting. Next time if I were you, I would put LivinLegend across the bottom of the pics or your real name or your web site or whatever to distiguish them as yours. This way, you will have eternal credit.

aside: I once created a map for Quake II that was used heavily on my ISPs server. People loved it. I later found out that somebody created a SUPER SIMILAR variation of my map and named it my map name and slapped a 2 on it. Nowhere did my handle or name appear in the readme or in the map itself. I was just happy somebody thought it useful and fun enough to steal. BTW, I had spent countless hours creating the concept and theme of the map that was directly ripped off and again, it didn't bother me one bit because it was for other people's enjoyment. That is why I created the map in the first place.

I'll ask again then, can I take Skydog's FOF research threads, post them as my own and not give him any credit?

Making a differentation for copyrighted material makes sense.

[Schmidty]

Originally Posted by SirFozzie

*grumbles* That was then. I'm better now

I know. I'm just a bitter old man, so don't mind me.

[primelord]

Originally Posted by WSUCougar

And isn't "Ignorant Fucktard" redundant?

I am afraid I am going to need to see Webster's definition of Fucktard before I am willing to agree with this.