So - why TCY2?

[Godzilla Blitz]

First, let me preface this. If you only read the following from me about TCY, you might think I hate the game, but that’s not true. I really enjoyed TCY. I think it is a solid game, and it gave me dozens of hours of fun. However, most first generation games have many things that can be improved, and TCY is no exception.

Some of these have been mentioned above and some of these I’ve posted in other threads, but for what it’s worth, here’s my thoughts on how to improve TCY (in order of priority):

Fix the Fundamental Flaw
TCY is fundamentally flawed because the route to success is automatic. Basically, to succeed at TCY you recruit smart athletes to build prestige which in turn allows you to recruit good athletes, which in turn allow you to win games. Making this strategy even more powerful is the fact that the AI ignores it. By following this strategy, you can take any program and build it into an elite program in ten to fifteen years. It takes a long time, yes, but the challenge when playing TCY is not “Can I do it?” but “How long will it take?”

Thoughts:
First, if you keep the same system in TCY, at least get the AI to have the weaker college programs try to follow it as well. This would greatly improve the challenge for the human player. Second, reduce the overall intelligence of the recruiting pool and further reduce the number of students that highly value academics. There are simply too many smart athletes in TCY. Third, create sliders that allow the human player to customize the algorithms used to generate the recruiting pool.

An alternative would be to scrap the system altogether: greatly reduce or eliminate the influence of academics in the game. This would probably mean overhauling the recruiting system.

Simplify Time Management
Sure, some people like it. Some people collect insects, too. But the majority of gamers find it tedious, cumbersome, and boring. Each preseason, you’ve got to deal with: more than 60 players, 5 variables, each player on a different screen, adjustments on a scale of 1-100. Eek. Also, the allure to this part of the game for those that like it is more along the lines of puzzle solving; when setting time management numbers, most of the issue is not the gamer trying to develop players to fit a certain style of play, but more the gamer trying to crack a complex code in order to maximize development. This type of “puzzling” simply should not be part of a football sim. It’s a different type of game altogether.

Thoughts:
First, create a simplified system of time management by doing the following. Reduce the number of variables to three: Academic, Football, Free. Second, reduce the number scale to 1-10. Three, simplify the interface used to adjust the variables. I’m thinking something along the lines of FBCB’s system, where all players’ training times are on one screen and there are drop down menus to select training time. The goal is to be able to do everything with time management from one screen. Lastly, for those that enjoy the puzzle-solving nature of the current system, let the gamer choose from “Simplified Development” or “Complex Development” at the beginning of a career.

Create a Search Function for Recruits
Recruiting takes two to three times as long as it should because of the lack of a search function that would allow you to pinpoint recruits along a number of variables.

Thoughts:
Create a search function much like Championship Manager. You should be able to set all the variables (positions, distance, test scores, interest, ability, major, state, etc.), on one screen, push a “find” button, and see all of the players that match those criteria come up on one screen, and then be able to save that search results screen. Also, allow the gamer to sort the results by clicking on the variables at the top. Want to see all the interested offensive tackles, rated 60 or better, within 500 miles of your school that want to stay close to home, and have a test score of 1000 or better? Just punch in the variables and viola, you’ve got them all in front of you in less than 10 seconds. Right now, answering that question would take five minutes or more. Given the number of questions that you entertain while recruiting, the entire recruiting process could be greatly streamlined. More importantly, you’ve eliminated the tedium of the process (screen-hopping) and kept the fun (decision-making).

Allow the Option to Move Recruiting to the Post-Season
This is clearly a matter of preference. For every gamer that wants recruiting done after the season, there is another that likes the current system. Personally, I like some aspects of in-season recruiting (game outcome influencing visiting recruits; adjusting recruiting due to injuries and poor performance), but the biggest drawback for me is that I have a hard time getting locked into the game. When I’m recruiting, I want to see how things are progressing immediately, and I feel like the games are an annoyance. Once the game’s over, I want to play the next game, and recruiting feels like an annoyance. I can’t get into a rhythm.

Thoughts:
If at all possible, create an option that allows the gamer, at the beginning of a career, to decide which system they would prefer.

Simplify Scouts
Again, this is too complex. Too much information scattered over too many screens.

Thoughts:
First, reduce it to one scout. Second, as with time management, make it so you can see the ratings of all the available scouts on one screen rather than having to scroll through them, one by one. Third, change the variables to numbers. Numbers are easy on the brain. Fourth, on the screen with all the scouts visible, have one column that shows the “total” numerical value of the scout, which is a sum of all the individual variables. Fifth, allow the gamer to sort this screen by clicking on the variables at the top.

Modify the Record Tabulating (For Tournament Style Playoff Careers)
Right now in TCY, all playoff games are included in career and season record totals. For elite teams that make it deep into the tournament, players will get an extra four or five games a season, making the season-records and career-record screens mostly meaningless, especially for the teams that don’t make the playoffs.

Thoughts:
For tournament-style playoff careers, create the option of not including playoff games in record totals.

Tweak Recruiting Finances
Right now, there’s too much money for small schools to recruit all over the country. Even with the smaller schools, I rarely feel financially constrained in my recruiting decisions.

Thoughts:
Reduce the money available for small schools, or increase the cost of travel. Nationwide recruiting should be extremely difficult for small schools. Perhaps this could be coupled with an unlocking of recruiting regions as a team progresses in prestige.

(Whoops. Accidentally deleted this entire post earlier. This is a repost.)

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

First, let me preface this. If you only read the following from me about TCY, you might think I hate the game, but that’s not true. I really enjoyed TCY. I think it is a solid game, and it gave me dozens of hours of fun. However, most first generation games have many things that can be improved, and TCY is no exception.

Some of these have been mentioned above and some of these I’ve posted in other threads, but for what it’s worth, here’s my thoughts on how to improve TCY (in order of priority):

Fix the Fundamental Flaw
TCY is fundamentally flawed because the route to success is automatic. Basically, to succeed at TCY you recruit smart athletes to build prestige which in turn allows you to recruit good athletes, which in turn allow you to win games. Making this strategy even more powerful is the fact that the AI ignores it. By following this strategy, you can take any program and build it into an elite program in ten to fifteen years. It takes a long time, yes, but the challenge when playing TCY is not “Can I do it?” but “How long will it take?”

Thoughts:
First, if you keep the same system in TCY, at least get the AI to have the weaker college programs try to follow it as well. This would greatly improve the challenge for the human player. Second, reduce the overall intelligence of the recruiting pool and further reduce the number of students that highly value academics. There are simply too many smart athletes in TCY. Third, create sliders that allow the human player to customize the algorithms used to generate the recruiting pool.

An alternative would be to scrap the system altogether: greatly reduce or eliminate the influence of academics in the game. This would probably mean overhauling the recruiting system.

I disagree. I've been able to build championship programs starting from Sol-8 teams while paying no regard to academics at all. The "exploit" you're talking about is just one way to win at the game - it's no the only way. Should it be adjusted? Probably - but if that's the only way you build winning teams, you're not trying anything else. Ignore the academics when you build your program and see how you do.

Simplify Time Management
Sure, some people like it. Some people collect insects, too. But the majority of gamers find it tedious, cumbersome, and boring. Each preseason, you’ve got to deal with: more than 60 players, 5 variables, each player on a different screen, adjustments on a scale of 1-100. Eek. Also, the allure to this part of the game for those that like it is more along the lines of puzzle solving; when setting time management numbers, most of the issue is not the gamer trying to develop players to fit a certain style of play, but more the gamer trying to crack a complex code in order to maximize development. This type of “puzzling” simply should not be part of a football sim. It’s a different type of game altogether.

Thoughts:
First, create a simplified system of time management by doing the following. Reduce the number of variables to three: Academic, Football, Free. Second, reduce the number scale to 1-10. Three, simplify the interface used to adjust the variables. I’m thinking something along the lines of FBCB’s system, where all players’ training times are on one screen and there are drop down menus to select training time. The goal is to be able to do everything with time management from one screen. Lastly, for those that enjoy the puzzle-solving nature of the current system, let the gamer choose from “Simplified Development” or “Complex Development” at the beginning of a career.

I'm all for simplifying it, but make it optional. Some guys love the minute details... don't deprive others of it, but give us an option to automate it.

Create a Search Function for Recruits
Recruiting takes two to three times as long as it should because of the lack of a search function that would allow you to pinpoint recruits along a number of variables.

Thoughts:
Create a search function much like Championship Manager. You should be able to set all the variables (positions, distance, test scores, interest, ability, major, state, etc.), on one screen, push a “find” button, and see all of the players that match those criteria come up on one screen, and then be able to save that search results screen. Also, allow the gamer to sort the results by clicking on the variables at the top. Want to see all the interested offensive tackles, rated 60 or better, within 500 miles of your school that want to stay close to home, and have a test score of 1000 or better? Just punch in the variables and viola, you’ve got them all in front of you in less than 10 seconds. Right now, answering that question would take five minutes or more. Given the number of questions that you entertain while recruiting, the entire recruiting process could be greatly streamlined. More importantly, you’ve eliminated the tedium of the process (screen-hopping) and kept the fun (decision-making).

Good idea... although I'm generally able to filter for the recruits I want with the tools the game already has.

Allow the Option to Move Recruiting to the Post-Season
This is clearly a matter of preference. For every gamer that wants recruiting done after the season, there is another that likes the current system. Personally, I like some aspects of in-season recruiting (game outcome influencing visiting recruits; adjusting recruiting due to injuries and poor performance), but the biggest drawback for me is that I have a hard time getting locked into the game. When I’m recruiting, I want to see how things are progressing immediately, and I feel like the games are an annoyance. Once the game’s over, I want to play the next game, and recruiting feels like an annoyance. I can’t get into a rhythm.

Thoughts:
If at all possible, create an option that allows the gamer, at the beginning of a career, to decide which system they would prefer.

Another good idea... this would make it more "FOF-like." I'd go for this.

Simplify Scouts
Again, this is too complex. Too much information scattered over too many screens.

Thoughts:
First, reduce it to one scout. Second, as with time management, make it so you can see the ratings of all the available scouts on one screen rather than having to scroll through them, one by one. Third, change the variables to numbers. Numbers are easy on the brain. Fourth, on the screen with all the scouts visible, have one column that shows the “total” numerical value of the scout, which is a sum of all the individual variables. Fifth, allow the gamer to sort this screen by clicking on the variables at the top.

Good suggestions... especially the scouting consolidation option... but I'd like this to be optional, as well, just to leave the added detail for those who want it.

Modify the Record Tabulating (For Tournament Style Playoff Careers)
Right now in TCY, all playoff games are included in career and season record totals. For elite teams that make it deep into the tournament, players will get an extra four or five games a season, making the season-records and career-record screens mostly meaningless, especially for the teams that don’t make the playoffs.

Thoughts:
For tournament-style playoff careers, create the option of not including playoff games in record totals.

I don't pay much attention to this aspect of the game.

Tweak Recruiting Finances
Right now, there’s too much money for small schools to recruit all over the country. Even with the smaller schools, I rarely feel financially constrained in my recruiting decisions.

Thoughts:
Reduce the money available for small schools, or increase the cost of travel.

(Whoops. Accidentally deleted this entire post earlier. This is a repost.)

Hmm... not a bad idea... it would definately make the Sol-8 teams more challenging.

[the_meanstrosity]

I absolutely love to play TCY. Can it be improved? Yes. But for the inaugural version of the game, Jim really out-did himself on it. Plus all of his patches just kept making a strong game even stronger. Kudos to Jim on a great job.

As far as improving time management, there is some room for improvement. I will say that the first season was always the most difficult. You had to evaluate every player and their situation to insure you had the correct tweaks. But after the first season, it became at most a 5 minute process. You can't ask for much more than that. I would like to see a way to type in the numbers though. The sliders were alright, but typing in numbers would have made things easier for me at least.

I'm not a stickler for playcalling so I won't discuss it here. I think we'll see it added to the next version though, but it won't keep me from purchasing the game if it's not.

I'd like to see more media, athletic department, and coach interaction like Championship Manager has. Discussing the job situation, recruiting, contending for the conference or national championship, player reports from coaches, etc.

These are just a couple of things I'd look for in the next version. Either way, Jim will have a tough time improving on the original TCY. It's been a fantastic game.

[GabeRivers]

Excellent post, Godzilla. You've hit on a lot of my own thoughts (and yes, I too like the game).

I have a son who is a college football player and starts in the Big XII (that info kind of dates me), so I tend to view TCY through the eyes of following my son's experiences.

The 'academic' facets of TCY don't seem real to me. As far as recruiting players goes in the real world, I simply don't believe that how a university ranks in a given recruit's chosen field of study is really a factor. Certainly, most major universities are solid in enough areas to fit most any recruit, and besides, most of them don't enter college with a decided major anyway. Perhaps if the recruit had a choice between two otherwise equal universities, he might take this factor into account, but in the real world, I doubt it. It would make more sense to me to greatly increase the importance of prestige, and then to substitute the "bright lights of the city" as a factor in place of academics. The attractiveness of the location of the university is often a factor with recruits in the real world.

Secondly, in the real world, coaches will clamp down on players who struggle academically, forcing them into extra time with tutors and in study hall, but it comes straight out of their 'social' time and never out of their practice or conditioning time.

Finally, if a Sol-8 conference is required in order to effectuate schedules that's fine with me, but I wish the option to create this conference was done on a regional basis as opposed to by state. I can't stand the notion of a full-fledged Rhode Island D-1 conference. Seriously, to me it would be more fun to structure the Sol-8 around the regions that are already built into the game for scouting purposes, using either existing schools or fantasy universities, as the player wishes.

I like TCY and will continue to play it from time to time, but I would prefer it to be more geared to real life.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Originally Posted by GabeRivers

The 'academic' facets of TCY don't seem real to me. As far as recruiting players goes in the real world, I simply don't believe that how a university ranks in a given recruit's chosen field of study is really a factor.

Good points. However, I believe Jim included this element in the game not to mirror reality, but to add an element to the gameplay.

Personally, I don't have a problem with bending reality to make a better game. As a matter of fact I would prefer that designers bend reality to make a game more fun.

To that end, I'm ok with the element of academics influencing prestige and such, and am ok with the current TCY system. I just wish it wasn't such a slam dunk route to building a great program.

Although the fields of study in TCY are probably even an even more unrealistic aspect, I like how they create imbalances in the game. As a weak school, you can out-recruit a stronger school in certain majors if you're strong in that area. You can emphasize certain majors early in a career to get a jump on good recruits early in your progression, which is something I find kind of fun.

[kingnebwsu]

Boy, the mere mention of Jim's next game () has produced many great ideas. TCY was so sweet, and I'm sure TCY 2 would have the requisite improvements to make it fannnnnntastic.

[ageofquarrel]

I dont know if it was touched upon in this thread. But I would like to see why a recruit didnt or did come to your school. Just something, doesnt even have to be 100% accurate, about why he chose school A over school B. Maybe an email from the recruit.

[Godzilla Blitz]

Franklin: Good post!

I'm curious, though. I tried playing TCY once with a weak academic school without focusing on the academics, but given its dominant weight in recruiting, and given recruiting's dominant weight in building a good program, I felt like it was like playing FOF without looking at stats. The recruiting "game" seemed to fade away. What kind of house rules do you impose on yourself when you play "without looking at academics" that made it fun and challenging?

Also, did the sol-8 school you built into a powerhouse start with a horrible academic rating? I found the game easy when I played any team (Sol-8 included) that started with solid academics. In essence, once you've got a good academic rating, you can pretty much ignore it as long as you win on the field. The academic rating is the transitional key to getting good recruits and winning games, which is ultimately what drives prestige and gains even better recruits. The AI often makes Sol-8 schools that start the game with strong academics into powerhouses on their own, and they don't focus on academics.

Have you tried to take a crappy academic school with crappy prestige (preferably not a Sol-8 team) and build that into a champion without looking at academics? I would love to hear about the details and how much fun it was to play.

[Franklinnoble]

Originally Posted by Godzilla Blitz

Franklin: Good post!

I'm curious, though. I tried playing TCY once with a weak academic school without focusing on the academics, but given its dominant weight in recruiting, and given recruiting's dominant weight in building a good program, I felt like it was like playing FOF without looking at stats. The recruiting "game" seemed to fade away. What kind of house rules do you impose on yourself when you play "without looking at academics" that made it fun and challenging?

Also, did the sol-8 school you built into a powerhouse start with a horrible academic rating? I found the game easy when I played any team (Sol-8 included) that started with solid academics. In essence, once you've got a good academic rating, you can pretty much ignore it as long as you win on the field. The academic rating is the transitional key to getting good recruits and winning games, which is ultimately what drives prestige and gains even better recruits. The AI often makes Sol-8 schools that start the game with strong academics into powerhouses on their own, and they don't focus on academics.

Have you tried to take a crappy academic school with crappy prestige (preferably not a Sol-8 team) and build that into a champion without looking at academics? I would love to hear about the details and how much fun it was to play.

Honestly, I can't recall if any of the schools I started with had a bad academic reputation to start with or not. I haven't played TCY in almost a year.

Basically, my M.O. for a Sol-8 school is to focus on local blue-chip talent, and I'm not above bribing them to attend my school. This is actually one of my favorite little elements of realism in the game.

[Buccaneer]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

I wonder if there are really two wholly different directions to take this game.

Many of the suggestions from the "true believer" college football junkies have practically no appeal to me at all. I don't want more tedium, more steps to sift through between making decisions, more stuff to deal with in recruiting... those are essentially the things that turned me off to the game to begin with. And I'm not sure if Jim gets more customers by adding even more detail that benefits the "hardcore" users of exactly this kind of game.

Is there a different direction to take? Something that might give the game a broader appeal, rather than just a more intense appeal to the same people who would already buy it?

(I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the right thing to do - just curious)

Out of the mouth of a greater elite has more credibility, I hope.

[Buccaneer]

I didn't click on the previous thread but I hope I remembered to add more suggestion on making recruiting (specifically, visit costs) more geographically realistic. That's the game within the game for me.

[Leonidas]

I think Jim really needs to make a TCY2. For the time being he owns the market. No one else has a college football sim. And we are proof there is a lucrative market. If he sits on it and doesn't do this you can bet someone at .400 or somewhere else is going to contract a competitor. There's just too big a market not to, and TCY has been basically the same for several years now. The market is ready for another.

[Abe Sargent]

Okay, so here is what I gotta say:

I think that recruiting becomes *very* monotonous. Part of that is that there are only a few factors that figure into a recruit's decision. Distance, grades, prestige and a few other, smaller factors (coordinator, whether friends from HS go there). I'd like more options.

How about a military preference, for players who want to go to Army, Navy or Air Force. It should be much harder for these teams to get other recruits.

How about a few recruiting tweaks. Why not have double the amount of money and contacts available during your bye week? Why not reduce the cost of visiting a state if you are playing there that week? It might make scheduling a bit more interesting as well.

-Anxiety

[MizzouRah]

Ok, I just had one of those 'eerie' moments this morning where I thought I could come here and see a thread titled, "TCY 2 Q&A - Post your questions for Jim Gindin"


Todd

[Flasch186]

ill buy it cuz i cant find my copy of TCY right now....

[Pumpy Tudors]

I think it's in my other pants. okaythanksbye

[kingnebwsu]

Today for some reason I thought of the Simpsons episode where Otto walks out of the "Stoner's Pot Palace" and says "mannn, that is flagrant false advertising!" Then about 3 hours later, the episode was on TV...eerie!!!

[33sherman]

I hope threads such as these somehow make TCY2 more possible in the near future.

[judicial clerk]

I have not played TCY in a long time. What a GREAT game. I might go reinstall that badboy tonight.

I agree with many of the improvements suggested here, but the reason I would like to see TCY2 is because of the possibilities. i am excited about what jim might do that noone here has even thought of yet.

I also would like to see TCY2 b/c I think it would be a good business decision and i want to see Jim stay successful.

[zentuit]

I've only started playing TCY since Father's Day (thanks girls!). Here's a couple suggestions/thoughts.

Time management:
- how about an "advanced" split grid/detail screen. Grid on left, detail box on right. Each row of grid a player, time blocks the columns. As focus is changed on grid, the players information shows up on the right detail box; basically set of labels. This would allow the user to quickly scan the players. I would probably sort by position or filter by position.

- there is at least one utility out there to help users set their time management screens, i'd investigating stealin^Wincorporating some of the good ideas there. with authors' permission of course

Recruiting:
- i agree that academics are heavily weighted. i think there is a 4th determinant at least for the upper level kids; if i go here what's my chances of getting to the pros? not just prestige of the school but actually drafted... well now that i think of it, this would probably be pretty hard to do if you wanted to keep a TCY-FOF linkage.

- here's one that gets me every time i play. i call a recruit, close the dialog box and 1/2 the time forget the response. "rats, was he surprised? did he hate my off coord?" maybe someway to quickly bring up the note field, or just have my assistant save the response. I'd prefer the later.. my carpal tunnel is acting up.

Player development(?):
- I'm not 100% sure that this is or is not already in there; like I said I've just started playing. One thing I'm interested in is the ability of walk-ons to become starters and eventually pro players. Alot (most? all?) of the walkons I see in my game, well, lets say they leave much to be desired. I'm a VaTech alum, Beamer does alot with his walk-ons. there's usually a couple picked up in FA after the draft or some drafted ala John Engleberger and John Burke. (don't know John Burke, heh, not too many people do - he was #2 TE at NE '94-'98(?); played in Superbowl XXXI). Is there the same type of boom/bust situation as FOF?

I'm sure I'll have more.

Thanks for a great set of games, btw. I'm enjoying them immensely.

I'll leave you with a quick story. I was in the hunt for a top rated running back. He was visiting, I just felt good about it. Apparently my wife had been talking to me (oops) and when I didn't nod or grunt at the appropriate time she yelled "TOM!" This caused me to jump, jerk my head up and click the mouse button. Right on the withdraw offer button for the running back. "WHAT THE H#LL!! LOOK AT WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!!" As I ranted at her, she looked at me then broke out laughing, "Tom, its just a game". "BUT, BUT... (whine) he was gonna sign (/whine)"

Tom

[Karlifornia]

Originally Posted by Noop

1. Scouting reports - I'd like to know everything about the player I'm trying to sign. Example: Joe Blow runs a 4.4 according to his highschool coach we clocked at times of 4.38, 4.43, 4.44 .

Wow. That's a pretty fast coach

[sovereignstar]

Originally Posted by RadioFriendlyUnitShifter

Wow. That's a pretty fast coach

LOL

So Joe Blow runs faster than his coach around 66% of the time.

[WSUCougar]

Originally Posted by zentuit

One thing I'm interested in is the ability of walk-ons to become starters and eventually pro players. Alot (most? all?) of the walkons I see in my game, well, lets say they leave much to be desired.

Welcome to the board, Tom.

A comment about the walk-on issue. Just curious if these are unrecruited walk-ons (i.e., the guys the AI places on your team to fill roster gaps), or if you're referring to the non-scholarship guys you can bring on to fill out your 16 slots in each recruiting class. I have honed my walk-on recruiting ability pretty well, seeking out lower-rated guys from high athletic development high schools or high potential guys with low athletic prep. You can also target good students in key majors this way as well.

The trick is that the AI seems to determine walk-on recruits by position, starting with QBs and working its way down one player per position until the 16 slots are filled. So you have to be cautious about who you offer a visit to.

Just some food for thought in case it hadn't occurred to you.

Hilarious story about the wife, by the way.

[Godzilla Blitz]

bumpity for Daddy Torgo