We lost one. - Page 2

cthomer5000 · 07-21-2003, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ksyrup
Just curious, is the boyfriend looking at any possible criminal charges, like vehicular manslaughter?

A legitemate question, and I'm also interested. In my hometown, one of my high school classmates was in an accident that killed a friend of his (alcohol was involved). They were speeding on a highway, and rear-ended a garbage truck. The driver is currently serving jail time.

Ben E Lou · 07-21-2003, 05:07 PM

Well, it sounds like the Dodds have forgiven Luca, but he hasn't come close to forgiving himself. He said from up front that we struggled with whether or not to come to the funeral, and that he definitely had not intended on saying anything from up front.

I haven't heard anything recently about the D.A. prosecuting him. I can't for the life of me figure out what possible good jail would do. I say fine him and take away his license for a few years. He's already had enough punishment to learn the lesson of a lifetime.

FBPro · 07-21-2003, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Well, it sounds like the Dodds have forgiven Luca, but he hasn't come close to forgiving himself. He said from up front that we struggled with whether or not to come to the funeral, and that he definitely had not intended on saying anything from up front.

I haven't heard anything recently about the D.A. prosecuting him. I can't for the life of me figure out what possible good jail would do. I say fine him and take away his license for a few years. He's already had enough punishment to learn the lesson of a lifetime.

I would agree, I cannot even imagine the pain he is going through for himself and for the family right now. My prayer is that God would be VERY real to him during this time.

cmp · 07-21-2003, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cthomer5000
A legitemate question, and I'm also interested. In my hometown, one of my high school classmates was in an accident that killed a friend of his (alcohol was involved). They were speeding on a highway, and rear-ended a garbage truck. The driver is currently serving jail time.

I recently had a friend that was involved in a single car crash that killed two of his friends who were in the backseat. He was charged with vehicular manslaughter and found guilty and is serving 4-15 years. He was under the influence of marjiuana though. If the kid wasn't under the influence I don't believe he'll be charged.

Craptacular · 07-21-2003, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gold101
If the kid wasn't under the influence I don't believe he'll be charged.

If he was doing something criminally negligent he should be charged.

Ben E Lou · 07-21-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Craptacular
If he was doing something criminally negligent he should be charged.

Legally, you're right of course. I just see no good whatsoever, for him or for society, to him getting jail time. A fine, probation and loss of license for a relatively long time would sit well with me.

cmp · 07-21-2003, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Legally, you're right of course. I just see no good whatsoever, for him or for society, to him getting jail time. A fine, probation and loss of license for a relatively long time would sit well with me.

I agree with SkyDog here. He's no threat to society, why put him in jail? That's the same thing I thought with my friend. He wasn't a threat to society and by making one bad decision he has to sit in jail for at least 4 years. Jail will do no good to him, it can only make him bitter.

Anrhydeddu · 07-21-2003, 07:23 PM

I agree but you have to try to apply the law equally in all cases. If there is precedent in your county to avoid jail time for something like this, then it should apply in this case.

Ksyrup · 07-21-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anrhydeddu
I agree but you have to try to apply the law equally in all cases. If there is precedent in your county to avoid jail time for something like this, then it should apply in this case.

I agree. And, of course, another reason for prosecuting is that there is the idea of deterrence for the next set of joyriding kids.

Interestingly, this will likely be the same type of argument about the 86 year old out in California. A threat to society or not, if there was a crime, both of them should be held accountable in some form or fashion. The degree of punishment might be arguable, but holding someone accountable for their actions is not, IMO.

Craptacular · 07-21-2003, 11:32 PM

I didn't say he should necessarily go to jail (although it shouldn't be ruled out, especially since we don't know all the circumstances), but he certainly should be charged and punished if found guilty of criminal negligence. If you don't know already, I have little or no tolerance for these kinds of things.

Samdari · 07-22-2003, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Legally, you're right of course. I just see no good whatsoever, for him or for society, to him getting jail time. A fine, probation and loss of license for a relatively long time would sit well with me.

Its not about him, or whether or not he is a danger to society.

Its about the next kid who wants to race motorcycles. If this kid committed a criminal act resulting in the death of another, then NOT prosecuting tells all those kids that there are no consequences to drag racing motorcycles. He should be prosecuted whether or not someone died, it is just very tragic that it took the death of a beautiful young woman for him to get caught.

Now, debate all you want about whether or not this kid going to jail actually works as a deterrent to the next group, but I think they have to try.

Ben E Lou · 07-22-2003, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
Its not about him, or whether or not he is a danger to society.

Its about the next kid who wants to race motorcycles. If this kid committed a criminal act resulting in the death of another, then NOT prosecuting tells all those kids that there are no consequences to drag racing motorcycles. He should be prosecuted whether or not someone died, it is just very tragic that it took the death of a beautiful young woman for him to get caught.

Now, debate all you want about whether or not this kid going to jail actually works as a deterrent to the next group, but I think they have to try.

Good point, but to an "invincible" age group, only those *very* close to him are going to learn any lesson at all from his punishment, and for even those, it is more likely that the lesson they'll learn is: "when you're racing, make sure everyone has a helmet that fits and that it is fastened well."

I understand why you say that they have to try though.

cuervo72 · 07-22-2003, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Good point, but to an "invincible" age group, only those *very* close to him are going to learn any lesson at all from his punishment, and for even those, it is more likely that the lesson they'll learn is: "when you're racing, make sure everyone has a helmet that fits and that it is fastened well."

I understand why you say that they have to try though.

Agreed, as tragic as it may be, unfortunately most kids will have forgotten about the incident in a year or so, or in a few years may not have even known it happened in the first place. Or they will have the "well, that can't/won't happen to me" mentality.

Samdari · 07-22-2003, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Good point, but to an "invincible" age group, only those *very* close to him are going to learn any lesson at all from his punishment, and for even those, it is more likely that the lesson they'll learn is: "when you're racing, make sure everyone has a helmet that fits and that it is fastened well."

I understand why you say that they have to try though.

Yeah, I am making no claim that it actually works, but I would think it does in some cases. Consistently prosecuting those who drag race will definitely not stop it from happening, but I tend to think it will make some teens think it is not worth the risk and decide to do something else on a Saturday night.

And, I know this is anecdotal evidence, but from the teens I have known (mostly me and my friends when I was that age) the invincible thing applies mostly to injury/death. We weren't afraid of dying, but we were afraid of getting caught.

Ksyrup · 07-22-2003, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samdari
Yeah, I am making no claim that it actually works, but I would think it does in some cases. Consistently prosecuting those who drag race will definitely not stop it from happening, but I tend to think it will make some teens think it is not worth the risk and decide to do something else on a Saturday night.

Not only that, but what is the alternative? Letting them get off? Why should that only apply to teens? Don't 25 year olds or 35 year olds who engage in reckless behavior that turns tragic deserve the opportunity to "make something of the rest of their lives?" These kinds of things are, by definition, "tragic," regardless of the age of the person at fault. You make an exception for an arbitrary class of people (i.e., teenagers), then its going to get awfully difficult to argue against giving the same break to someone a little older. In fact, since those a bit older might already have a family, there's even a greater justification why it would serve society better to let them off.

No, you either prosecute all those who engage in factually similar "tragedies,", or let them all go.

grdawg · 07-22-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Then we went to the graveside. I'd never seen this done before, but they actually lowered her body into the ground as a part of the ceremony, and they had a pile of dirt and a shovel there, and at the end they encouraged everyone present to dig a shovel-full of dirt and throw it into the hole on top of her body.

--Ben

Skydog - this is actually a part of the funeral ceremony in judaism. We just burried my grandmother about 2 months ago and we did this. I'm not totally sure the significance, but each family member shovelled 3 shovels full and then other friends finished up covering the casket. I do think its a great custom.

As many have previously echoed, my sympathies go out to everyone affected.

Ben E Lou · 07-22-2003, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grdawg
Skydog - this is actually a part of the funeral ceremony in judaism. We just burried my grandmother about 2 months ago and we did this. I'm not totally sure the significance, but each family member shovelled 3 shovels full and then other friends finished up covering the casket. I do think its a great custom.

Hannah's mother is Jewish by culture. I was wondering if that was a Jewish tradition.

Buzzbee · 07-22-2003, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Then we went to the graveside. I'd never seen this done before, but they actually lowered her body into the ground as a part of the ceremony, and they had a pile of dirt and a shovel there, and at the end they encouraged everyone present to dig a shovel-full of dirt and throw it into the hole on top of her body. I thought that was good for giving the teenagers there a picture of the finality of the whole situation. Kids stayed around the gravesite until the VERY bitter end too. The tent was down. The astro-turf was gone. All that was left was a pile of dirt, a hole, and the tractor filling in the hole. They watched the whole thing.

Yes, shovelling the dirt is a Jewish tradition. I used to work for a company with a predominantly Jewish sales force. One of our sales reps died of cancer. I, as branch manager, and as a friend, attended the funeral. It was the first time I had experienced a Jewish funeral. The sound of the dirt hitting the coffin stopped me cold. I will never forget that sound.

Buzzbee · 07-22-2003, 03:11 PM

Dola - This may sound insensitive, but I think that the boyfriend should be charged, and should serve time in jail. I'm sure that he has a tremendous sense of guilt, and this is something he will have to live with for the rest of his life. Rightfully so. Not only did he choose to do something so STUPID as to drag race, and not only did he choose to drag race on a motorcycle, he even choose to drag race, on a motorcycle, WITH his girlfriend on the back. I know teenagers tend to have the feeling of invincibility, but this was just plain stupid.

I feel sorry for the girls parents and friends. Her death is simply horrible. I do not feel sorry for the boyfriend. I feel that he brought it on himself. We should be willing to live with the consequences of our decisions.

JonInMiddleGA · 07-22-2003, 03:14 PM

Just backing the thoughts of Samdari & Buzzbee here. I really don't see how a prosecutor could not take this to a grand jury.

Ben E Lou · 07-22-2003, 03:17 PM

Sheesh. It looks like my point has been missed again, as in a couple of other threads the last day or so. I never said, nor intended to mean, that he shouldn't be prosecuted. I just hope his sentence doesn't include jail time.

Buzzbee · 07-22-2003, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Sheesh. It looks like my point has been missed again, as in a couple of other threads the last day or so. I never said, nor intended to mean, that he shouldn't be prosecuted. I just hope his sentence doesn't include jail time.

SkyDog, I re-read through this page of posts, and don't really see where anyone has missed your point. I see comments regarding whether jail time is beneficial, or if he should legally be charged, but I didn't see anyone questioning your statement regarding him being prosecuted.

Just wanted some clarification as to who was missing the point (in case it was me).

Samdari · 07-22-2003, 04:35 PM

I don't think I missed your point either. I also think his sentence should include jail time. His reckless disregard of the law directly caused the death of another human being. A slap on the wrist is not enough. Feeling bad about it is not enough. I concede the following points:

(a) he did not intend to harm anyone

(b) he loved the girl and the guilt he will feel about it will be a tremendous lifelong burden

(c) this person is not a direct threat to anyone, and removing him from society does not directly make society safer.

I see that I wrote above that the DA should prosecute him, but I should have said that, despite knowing all that, I think he deserves to spend some time in jail. Not because he is a danger to anyone, but I believe that potential drag racers seeing this go unpunished are a danger, and seeing this guy in jail will convince some of them not to do so.

That said, were it my brother or friend, I would want like hell for them not to go to jail, so not knowing the principals involved, it is easy for me to argue about the principles. I do not mean to sound callous arguing that point, as I am truly sorry that you had one person you care about die and have to see another face the consequences, both internal and external.

Ben E Lou · 08-13-2003, 05:07 AM

Bump....no prosecution yet. Any idea how long they would wait to do so?

cmp · 08-13-2003, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SkyDog
Bump....no prosecution yet. Any idea how long they would wait to do so?

Nothing happened in my friend's case until about 4 months after it happened. I had no idea they were even looking into possible charges against him.

sabotai · 08-13-2003, 03:09 PM

Completely unrelated type of case, but my friend's stepdad (who is now divorsed from his mom) was caught with child porn on his computer.

He started going to therapy and such, really trying to get help for some of the fucked up things he did (no, he didn't have sex with any kids). It was a good year or two before they started filing charges and such.

I guess sometimes it just takes a long time.

Ben E Lou · 09-05-2003, 04:25 PM

bump...for another thread I'm posting...

07-21-2003, 05:07 PM	#52
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Well, it sounds like the Dodds have forgiven Luca, but he hasn't come close to forgiving himself. He said from up front that we struggled with whether or not to come to the funeral, and that he definitely had not intended on saying anything from up front. I haven't heard anything recently about the D.A. prosecuting him. I can't for the life of me figure out what possible good jail would do. I say fine him and take away his license for a few years. He's already had enough punishment to learn the lesson of a lifetime. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

07-21-2003, 11:32 PM	#60
Craptacular College Starter Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: The Mad City, WI	I didn't say he should necessarily go to jail (although it shouldn't be ruled out, especially since we don't know all the circumstances), but he certainly should be charged and punished if found guilty of criminal negligence. If you don't know already, I have little or no tolerance for these kinds of things. Last edited by Craptacular : 07-21-2003 at 11:32 PM.

07-22-2003, 03:11 PM	#69
Buzzbee College Starter Join Date: Jun 2002	Dola - This may sound insensitive, but I think that the boyfriend should be charged, and should serve time in jail. I'm sure that he has a tremendous sense of guilt, and this is something he will have to live with for the rest of his life. Rightfully so. Not only did he choose to do something so STUPID as to drag race, and not only did he choose to drag race on a motorcycle, he even choose to drag race, on a motorcycle, WITH his girlfriend on the back. I know teenagers tend to have the feeling of invincibility, but this was just plain stupid. I feel sorry for the girls parents and friends. Her death is simply horrible. I do not feel sorry for the boyfriend. I feel that he brought it on himself. We should be willing to live with the consequences of our decisions. __________________ Ability is what you're capable of doing. Motivation determines what you do. Attitude determines how well you do it. - Lou Holtz

07-22-2003, 03:14 PM	#70
JonInMiddleGA Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Behind Enemy Lines in Athens, GA	Just backing the thoughts of Samdari & Buzzbee here. I really don't see how a prosecutor could not take this to a grand jury. __________________ "I lit another cigarette. Unless I specifically inform you to the contrary, I am always lighting another cigarette." - from a novel by Martin Amis

07-22-2003, 03:17 PM	#71
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Sheesh. It looks like my point has been missed again, as in a couple of other threads the last day or so. I never said, nor intended to mean, that he shouldn't be prosecuted. I just hope his sentence doesn't include jail time. __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

07-21-2003, 07:23 PM	#58
Anrhydeddu Resident Curmudgeon Join Date: Oct 2002	I agree but you have to try to apply the law equally in all cases. If there is precedent in your county to avoid jail time for something like this, then it should apply in this case.

07-22-2003, 04:35 PM	#73
Samdari Roster Filler Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Cicero	I don't think I missed your point either. I also think his sentence should include jail time. His reckless disregard of the law directly caused the death of another human being. A slap on the wrist is not enough. Feeling bad about it is not enough. I concede the following points: (a) he did not intend to harm anyone (b) he loved the girl and the guilt he will feel about it will be a tremendous lifelong burden (c) this person is not a direct threat to anyone, and removing him from society does not directly make society safer. I see that I wrote above that the DA should prosecute him, but I should have said that, despite knowing all that, I think he deserves to spend some time in jail. Not because he is a danger to anyone, but I believe that potential drag racers seeing this go unpunished are a danger, and seeing this guy in jail will convince some of them not to do so. That said, were it my brother or friend, I would want like hell for them not to go to jail, so not knowing the principals involved, it is easy for me to argue about the principles. I do not mean to sound callous arguing that point, as I am truly sorry that you had one person you care about die and have to see another face the consequences, both internal and external. __________________ http://www.nateandellie.net Now featuring twice the babies for the same low price!

08-13-2003, 05:07 AM	#74
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	Bump....no prosecution yet. Any idea how long they would wait to do so? __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

08-13-2003, 03:09 PM	#76
sabotai General Manager Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: The Satellite of Love	Completely unrelated type of case, but my friend's stepdad (who is now divorsed from his mom) was caught with child porn on his computer. He started going to therapy and such, really trying to get help for some of the fucked up things he did (no, he didn't have sex with any kids). It was a good year or two before they started filing charges and such. I guess sometimes it just takes a long time.

09-05-2003, 04:25 PM	#77
Ben E Lou Morgado's Favorite Forum Fascist Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Greensboro, NC	bump...for another thread I'm posting... __________________ The media don't understand the kinds of problems and pressures 54 million come wit'!

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